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THAB. Dedicated Server Edition. (Destiny)

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Thursday, May 25, 2017, 21:35 (2470 days ago)
edited by Ragashingo, Thursday, May 25, 2017, 22:19

Well, mostly...

Matt: Every activity in Destiny 2 is hosted by one of our servers. That means you will never again suffer a host migration during your Raid attempt or Trials match. This differs from Destiny 1, where these hosting duties were performed by player consoles and only script and mission logic ran in the data center. To understand the foundation on which we’re building, check out this Destiny 1 presentation from GDC. Using the terms from this talk, in Destiny 2, both the Mission Host and Physics Host will run in our data centers.

Who would have thought development was so political

by DEEP_NNN, Thursday, May 25, 2017, 21:56 (2470 days ago) @ Ragashingo

"we'll be monitoring the situation after launch and reacting to the community's feedback.
"

What a huge wet stinky pile of political bullshit! Nothing will change in their networking model except tweaking. Peer to peer is not going away for D2!

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Who would have thought development was so political

by stabbim @, Des Moines, IA, USA, Thursday, May 25, 2017, 22:33 (2470 days ago) @ DEEP_NNN

What a huge wet stinky pile of political bullshit!

Very thoughtful analysis.

Nothing will change in their networking model except tweaking.

Incorrect. They have apparently changed things so that the "physics" host is one of their servers, rather than a player's machine (I almost said "console" but that won't necessarily be the case in D2 I guess). They're still not using the term "dedicated server" because something is apparently still using peer-to-peer connections, but having the physics hosted on their servers seems like it should make a significant difference.

Peer to peer is not going away for D2!

They literally said exactly that.

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Who would have thought development was so political

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Friday, May 26, 2017, 00:06 (2470 days ago) @ stabbim

What a huge wet stinky pile of political bullshit!


Very thoughtful analysis.

Nothing will change in their networking model except tweaking.


Incorrect. They have apparently changed things so that the "physics" host is one of their servers, rather than a player's machine (I almost said "console" but that won't necessarily be the case in D2 I guess). They're still not using the term "dedicated server" because something is apparently still using peer-to-peer connections, but having the physics hosted on their servers seems like it should make a significant difference.

My bet is this is to deter Piracy on the PC version. The less you run locally, the harder to pirate.

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Who would have thought development was so political

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Friday, May 26, 2017, 00:16 (2470 days ago) @ Cody Miller

That might be a bonus, sure, but I doubt it was even a point to consider when they made the decision. It's not like Destiny isn't network intensive enough already...

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Who would have thought development was so political

by Schedonnardus, Texas, Friday, May 26, 2017, 11:53 (2469 days ago) @ Cody Miller

My bet is this is to deter Piracy on the PC version. The less you run locally, the harder to pirate.

probably mostly to do with aim bots and physics hacks. The Division had everything client side, and it ruined the PC version. People were shooting through walls, teleporting, had endless mags and health, damage buffs, etc. Having the physics occur on the server will prevent hacks like this.

Who would have thought development was so political

by DEEP_NNN, Friday, May 26, 2017, 01:49 (2470 days ago) @ stabbim

What a huge wet stinky pile of political bullshit!


Very thoughtful analysis.

Nothing will change in their networking model except tweaking.


Incorrect. They have apparently changed things so that the "physics" host is one of their servers, rather than a player's machine (I almost said "console" but that won't necessarily be the case in D2 I guess). They're still not using the term "dedicated server" because something is apparently still using peer-to-peer connections, but having the physics hosted on their servers seems like it should make a significant difference.

Peer to peer is not going away for D2!


They literally said exactly that.

Jeez, I read the article first. More is dedicated for D2 than for D1. Peer to peer will also return in D2. It's not going away.

My point on calling bullshit is that they won't be able to make changes other than tiny tweaks.

Who would have thought development was so political

by electricpirate @, Friday, May 26, 2017, 03:04 (2470 days ago) @ DEEP_NNN

What a huge wet stinky pile of political bullshit!


Very thoughtful analysis.

Nothing will change in their networking model except tweaking.


Incorrect. They have apparently changed things so that the "physics" host is one of their servers, rather than a player's machine (I almost said "console" but that won't necessarily be the case in D2 I guess). They're still not using the term "dedicated server" because something is apparently still using peer-to-peer connections, but having the physics hosted on their servers seems like it should make a significant difference.

Peer to peer is not going away for D2!


They literally said exactly that.


Jeez, I read the article first. More is dedicated for D2 than for D1. Peer to peer will also return in D2. It's not going away.

My point on calling bullshit is that they won't be able to make changes other than tiny tweaks.

This is much more than a minor tweak.

Functionally this is basically dedicated servers now. Cloud servers are running the physics logic. physics really means that the entire simulation, from grenade throws to bullet hit detection. Stuff like hulled out red bars should be a thing of the past.

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Who would have thought development was so political

by stabbim @, Des Moines, IA, USA, Friday, May 26, 2017, 03:34 (2470 days ago) @ DEEP_NNN

Jeez, I read the article first. More is dedicated for D2 than for D1. Peer to peer will also return in D2. It's not going away.

All true. But then you came in huffing and fuming that they had claimed P2P was going away, when they explicitly said it's not. Or at least, that's the way it read.

My point on calling bullshit is that they won't be able to make changes other than tiny tweaks.

If you mean they won't be able to shift the physics host back to the players' machines, I suppose that's true. But I doubt anyone will want them to.

I'm not making my case well, I'll drop it.

by DEEP_NNN, Friday, May 26, 2017, 10:03 (2469 days ago) @ stabbim

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this is really good news

by Kahzgul, Friday, May 26, 2017, 05:57 (2469 days ago) @ Ragashingo

Well, mostly...

Matt: Every activity in Destiny 2 is hosted by one of our servers. That means you will never again suffer a host migration during your Raid attempt or Trials match. This differs from Destiny 1, where these hosting duties were performed by player consoles and only script and mission logic ran in the data center. To understand the foundation on which we’re building, check out this Destiny 1 presentation from GDC. Using the terms from this talk, in Destiny 2, both the Mission Host and Physics Host will run in our data centers.

This is really good news, especially for pvp. More on that later. In pve, it means no more yanking the cord to glitch Crota type bugs. It means your connection to the game depends on your connection to the Bungie servers rather than on which random players you got matched with. This should result in more reliable and stable games for most players most of the time, when compared to Destiny 1.

Of course, you may not notice, because D1 did an absurdly good job of using predictive algorithms to make each game instance feel fluid and seamless on everyone's system. In fact, my guess would be that the thing most obviously noticeable here will be faster load times, since none of the systems will be busy serving up host or physics data.

Now, for pvp, the difference will be huge. Lag will be dependent on your connection to bungie's servers, rather than which of the players is the real host. That means gunfights should feel more fair. Lag-switching should become a thing of the past, since Bungie's servers will be working as intermediaries and will instantly be able to detect such behaviors. It's possible that won't be the case, but it *should* be and the groundwork is being laid to make it so, in any case. Most importantly, this should create a truly neutral damage referee that will ensure no more immortal lag bots charging in to soak your rockets or supers. I do not think this will stop DDoS attacks (the game will still be partly p2p because it's a network mesh thing), but it may make Bungie's ability to detect and punish DDoSers better. I'm not sure.

In any case, this is all good news, and I support it!

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this is really good news

by uberfoop @, Seattle-ish, Friday, May 26, 2017, 06:23 (2469 days ago) @ Kahzgul

In fact, my guess would be that the thing most obviously noticeable here will be faster load times, since none of the systems will be busy serving up host or physics data.

The client still needs to run physics locally, even if another system is authoritative. Only a tiny minority of gamestate can be updated by the host with each new frame (if the packets are arriving at all at a given moment). So to keep the game world appearing to run smoothly, the client still needs to be running everything, operating on its own except when the host tells it to change something.

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this is really good news

by Kahzgul, Friday, May 26, 2017, 08:53 (2469 days ago) @ uberfoop

In fact, my guess would be that the thing most obviously noticeable here will be faster load times, since none of the systems will be busy serving up host or physics data.


The client still needs to run physics locally, even if another system is authoritative. Only a tiny minority of gamestate can be updated by the host with each new frame (if the packets are arriving at all at a given moment). So to keep the game world appearing to run smoothly, the client still needs to be running everything, operating on its own except when the host tells it to change something.

Bungie flat out said that their servers are the new "physics host" instead of any of the players, whereas one player was the physics host in D1. So there is some offloading of server duties from a client machine to the dedicated servers. How much is up for interpretation, but there is definitely some.

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this is really good news

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Friday, May 26, 2017, 11:07 (2469 days ago) @ Kahzgul

In fact, my guess would be that the thing most obviously noticeable here will be faster load times, since none of the systems will be busy serving up host or physics data.


The client still needs to run physics locally, even if another system is authoritative. Only a tiny minority of gamestate can be updated by the host with each new frame (if the packets are arriving at all at a given moment). So to keep the game world appearing to run smoothly, the client still needs to be running everything, operating on its own except when the host tells it to change something.


Bungie flat out said that their servers are the new "physics host" instead of any of the players, whereas one player was the physics host in D1. So there is some offloading of server duties from a client machine to the dedicated servers. How much is up for interpretation, but there is definitely some.

I believe uberfoop is correct here.

The reason Destiny felt so good and didn't grind to a halt like Halo 3 / Reach when there was lag is because every system is running its own version of the simulation. It is extremely unlikely that will change.The only difference now is that the deciding console will actually be a Bungie server. If the entire simulation for every console was entirely offloaded we'd be right back to the Halo 3 / Reach days where the slightest bit of lag drops your frame rate and a bit of lag of any significant length straight up pauses the game.

You missed the most telling quote:

Destiny 2 uses a hybrid of client-server and peer-to-peer technology, just like Destiny 1. The server is authoritative over how the game progresses, and each player is authoritative over their own movement and abilities. This allows us to give players the feeling of immediacy in all their moving and shooting – no matter where they live and no matter whom they choose to play with.

Will around 1 in 6 consoles be doing slightly less in Destiny 2 because they will never be the host? Yes. Will moving the physics host into the cloud do anything to decrease load times? Almost certainly not. Just think about it, anytime you loaded into a pvp or pve game that already had another player, you were already not the physics host. And in 6v6 Crucible you had a 1 in 12 chance of being the physics host.

Could you tell a difference in load times when you weren't host? I certainly never could.

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this is really good news

by Kahzgul, Friday, May 26, 2017, 15:50 (2469 days ago) @ Ragashingo

In fact, my guess would be that the thing most obviously noticeable here will be faster load times, since none of the systems will be busy serving up host or physics data.


The client still needs to run physics locally, even if another system is authoritative. Only a tiny minority of gamestate can be updated by the host with each new frame (if the packets are arriving at all at a given moment). So to keep the game world appearing to run smoothly, the client still needs to be running everything, operating on its own except when the host tells it to change something.


Bungie flat out said that their servers are the new "physics host" instead of any of the players, whereas one player was the physics host in D1. So there is some offloading of server duties from a client machine to the dedicated servers. How much is up for interpretation, but there is definitely some.


I believe uberfoop is correct here.

The reason Destiny felt so good and didn't grind to a halt like Halo 3 / Reach when there was lag is because every system is running its own version of the simulation. It is extremely unlikely that will change.The only difference now is that the deciding console will actually be a Bungie server. If the entire simulation for every console was entirely offloaded we'd be right back to the Halo 3 / Reach days where the slightest bit of lag drops your frame rate and a bit of lag of any significant length straight up pauses the game.

I completely agree with this, but I fail to see why it would, in any way, invalidate my statement that this is an improvement, which seems to be why it is being bought up.

You missed the most telling quote:

Destiny 2 uses a hybrid of client-server and peer-to-peer technology, just like Destiny 1. The server is authoritative over how the game progresses, and each player is authoritative over their own movement and abilities. This allows us to give players the feeling of immediacy in all their moving and shooting – no matter where they live and no matter whom they choose to play with.

I didn't miss that at all. They physics server isn't telling your console how to animate a given object. It's just telling you what objects are moving and where in order to ensure things are uniform across all simulations. The likely only applies to "important" objects, like ammo boxes being opened, weapons being fired, and players moving. Anything that isn't shared among all clients wouldn't need to be served, and would be up to your individual console to generate. Similarly, we know the individual consoles are constantly "guessing" as to what is going to happen next using their predictive algorithms. Having a reliable server to keep updates and corrections flowing is going to be an improvement over relying on player connections.

Will around 1 in 6 consoles be doing slightly less in Destiny 2 because they will never be the host? Yes. Will moving the physics host into the cloud do anything to decrease load times? Almost certainly not. Just think about it, anytime you loaded into a pvp or pve game that already had another player, you were already not the physics host. And in 6v6 Crucible you had a 1 in 12 chance of being the physics host.

I disagree with you and think this will be a net positive on load times. You can't join a game until all players join the game, so everyone is delayed while the physics server's console got up to speed. The fact that there's a 1/12 chance it was you doesn't matter. What matters are the odds that the physics server had a poor connection to you. That's hard to predict, but depends more on where you are both geographically located, how good your respective internet connections are, etc.. Offloading that bandwidth, however small, to a neutral and reliable connection on a dedicated server is going to improve speeds and give everyone a more consistent play experience. We should no longer be seeing shots that landed last game suddenly dealing no damage this game.


Could you tell a difference in load times when you weren't host? I certainly never could.

No, because everyone loads in at once. You can't start the game without the host.

Probably bumps up the complexity of play spaces

by electricpirate @, Friday, May 26, 2017, 16:04 (2469 days ago) @ Kahzgul

One other point:

Due to Destiny's kind a crazy architecture you can basically become host at any time. I think that's far less likely in PVP, but fairly common in PVE. Because of this, your box has to reserve cycles for hosting duties, as you box can become host anytime. According to bungie Destiny is CPU limited, so every cycle they free up can go to more enemies or friends in the space. Moving physics hosting off local boxes can in theory help increase the size and scope of battles in game.

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Probably bumps up the complexity of play spaces

by Kahzgul, Saturday, May 27, 2017, 02:52 (2469 days ago) @ electricpirate

One other point:

Due to Destiny's kind a crazy architecture you can basically become host at any time. I think that's far less likely in PVP, but fairly common in PVE. Because of this, your box has to reserve cycles for hosting duties, as you box can become host anytime. According to bungie Destiny is CPU limited, so every cycle they free up can go to more enemies or friends in the space. Moving physics hosting off local boxes can in theory help increase the size and scope of battles in game.

Exactly!

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this is really good news

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Friday, May 26, 2017, 16:33 (2469 days ago) @ Kahzgul

Ok... I think I see what happened. Your initial comment has some funny word choices:

In fact, my guess would be that the thing most obviously noticeable here will be faster load times, since none of the systems will be busy serving up host or physics data.

This sounds to me like you were talking about CPU overhead and the system (aka CPU, RAM, etc) being busy and that the load times in D2 would be reduced because my console would never be the physics host and wouldn't have to spend time deciding what the actualshared word state was. I think Uberfoop saw it that way too because he mentioned how each console would still need to run its on local simulation. And it didn't help when you mentioned that "Bungie straight up said..." instead of clarifying what you meant. Not that you did it intentionally, it was just two people talking about different things.

I totally agree that having the physics host on nice happy servers with presumably far more stable connections should reduce a fair number of hiccups and waits. Like when we join the Tower as a fireteam and get stuck on a blackscreen until the host is done loading. That's usually caused by everyone waiting until the hosts makes sure we're in sync and can be disrupted by a slow or spotty host connection. Having the physics host in the cloud should indeed also help with some forms of pvp lag and inconsistencies as well.

That said, there are many times where we don't all load in at once. Joining a fireteam already in the Tower or moving from one populated patrol zone to another or joining a Crucible match in progress, for instance. My point was that if everyone has stable connections, the overhead of being the physics host was minimal and didn't really cause faster or slower loading times.

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this is really good news

by Kahzgul, Saturday, May 27, 2017, 02:54 (2469 days ago) @ Ragashingo

Ok... I think I see what happened. Your initial comment has some funny word choices:

In fact, my guess would be that the thing most obviously noticeable here will be faster load times, since none of the systems will be busy serving up host or physics data.


This sounds to me like you were talking about CPU overhead and the system (aka CPU, RAM, etc) being busy and that the load times in D2 would be reduced because my console would never be the physics host and wouldn't have to spend time deciding what the actualshared word state was. I think Uberfoop saw it that way too because he mentioned how each console would still need to run its on local simulation. And it didn't help when you mentioned that "Bungie straight up said..." instead of clarifying what you meant. Not that you did it intentionally, it was just two people talking about different things.

I totally agree that having the physics host on nice happy servers with presumably far more stable connections should reduce a fair number of hiccups and waits. Like when we join the Tower as a fireteam and get stuck on a blackscreen until the host is done loading. That's usually caused by everyone waiting until the hosts makes sure we're in sync and can be disrupted by a slow or spotty host connection. Having the physics host in the cloud should indeed also help with some forms of pvp lag and inconsistencies as well.

That said, there are many times where we don't all load in at once. Joining a fireteam already in the Tower or moving from one populated patrol zone to another or joining a Crucible match in progress, for instance. My point was that if everyone has stable connections, the overhead of being the physics host was minimal and didn't really cause faster or slower loading times.

Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying - I thought my point was very clear and I apologize that it wasn't. Sounds like we're all on the same page now.

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Segur, target infantry. McLees, target armor.

by dogcow @, Hiding from Bob, in the vent core., Friday, May 26, 2017, 12:23 (2469 days ago) @ Ragashingo

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Nice deep cut!

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Monday, May 29, 2017, 23:42 (2466 days ago) @ dogcow

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THAB. MotW, The Chain.

by dogcow @, Hiding from Bob, in the vent core., Friday, May 26, 2017, 13:21 (2469 days ago) @ Ragashingo

I enjoyed that movie more than most. Perhaps it's because I'm a fan of the classics, but yeah... it was good.

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THAB. MotW, The Chain.

by Korny @, Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Friday, May 26, 2017, 13:44 (2469 days ago) @ dogcow

I enjoyed that movie more than most. Perhaps it's because I'm a fan of the classics, but yeah... it was good.

There's a story behind that, apparently...

Over at Reddit.

Tl;dr, it was a project that the guy submitted for an editing job at a game company, using player-submitted video content. He didn't get the job, but the video is pretty dang great (he should definitely get hired by somebody in marketing). Good stuff!

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