Kotaku also hates Thorn.

Rejoice, O haters of Thorns. For you are not alone.

I'm sure this will bring more attention to it, and thus Bungie will do something about it.

So for fun, lets bet.

How long until Bungie re-balances Thorn (or possibly all hand cannons)?

Rev says: Within the next 30 days.

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Rejoice, O haters of Thorns. For you are not alone.

I'm sure this will bring more attention to it, and thus Bungie will do something about it.

So for fun, lets bet.

How long until Bungie re-balances Thorn (or possibly all hand cannons)?

Rev says: Within the next 30 days.

I see your 30 and double it.

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So for fun, lets bet.

How long until Bungie re-balances Thorn (or possibly all hand cannons)?

Rev says: Within the next 30 days.

6 Weeks after Xur sells Hawkmoon.

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I do not like his suggestion of buffing other weapons. Please lets not buff other weapons to counter Thorn. TTK already feels incredibly low to me, rewarding those who get the jump on others more than those who can aim (not that I can do either, just sayin').

My biggest beef w/ PvP is how incredibly fast you can die. I enjoyed the slower dance of Halo. When playing Halo at a LAN party with my old roommates & family I can (fairly often) kill someone who gets the drop on me because I am better than them. That rarely to never happens with me in Destiny. "Ack! Someone's shoo <dead>."

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I do not like his suggestion of buffing other weapons. Please lets not buff other weapons to counter Thorn. TTK already feels incredibly low to me, rewarding those who get the jump on others more than those who can aim (not that I can do either, just sayin').

My biggest beef w/ PvP is how incredibly fast you can die. I enjoyed the slower dance of Halo. When playing Halo at a LAN party with my old roommates & family I can (fairly often) kill someone who gets the drop on me because I am better than them. That rarely to never happens with me in Destiny. "Ack! Someone's shoo <dead>."

You can thank the popularity of COD for that :/

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Halo had Team SWAT for fast TTK. Beorn would always drag me into it... I'd hide in a corner and he'd get 30 kills.

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At least all the weapons are the same. When you fill a guy up with Vex Mythoclast and he runs down a hall, all the way around a corner, turns around and literally one-shots you with some (Adept) B.S., it's kinda different.

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Destiny and CoD play way different.

I honestly think Destiny pvp feels more like halo than CoD

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Destiny and CoD play way different.

I honestly think Destiny pvp feels more like halo than CoD

And I say that Destiny feels more Halo than CoD. Heck, it's more Crysis than CoD. Even CoD:AW, which had the Hunter-like EXO jumps felt very different from Destiny. CoD is a Twitch shooter, while Destiny is more of an Arena shooter (which Reach was more of to an extent, and Halo 4 more so)...

... Man, Crysis 2's multiplayer was so underrated...

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I'm a CoD lover, but destiny's pvp is still too fast. Here's the thing about CoD: You're always maximally deadly after you die. Respawn? Great, you have fresh grenades and full ammo. In Destiny you can respawn and be super gimped because of no ammo and every ability on cooldown. In CoD, you may run out of ammo if you stay alive for a long time, but after every death you have full lethal force at your disposal.

As a result, the fast TTKs in CoD don't feel as punishing as they do in Destiny.

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I don't use it; I'm generally shit with it. I have never been upset when I've been killed with it though.

I also don't think Bungie needs to change much with weapon balance at this point.

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I don't use it; I'm generally shit with it. I have never been upset when I've been killed with it though.

I also don't think Bungie needs to change much with weapon balance at this point.

I think they do, but it's very slight.

Shotguns need their range reduced in PvP.
Auto Rifles need a slight damage boost in PvP, and a significant boost in PvE.

Then Bungie is done. It's completely comical how ineffective ARs are now.

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Your 70 bullets to their 1-3?

Absolutely not.

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The 3rd biggest complaint(IMMEDIATELY after Thorn/Last Word's cheatiness and Shotguns 1-shotting cross-galaxies) is that Auto Rifles are useless--in both PvP AND PvE.

Like always, I can't find any of Bungie's weapon preference statistics, but I don't remember Auto Rifles being at the top.

Nine bullets. Nine bullets. So you're telling me that if you caught them unaware--or if you had them stand still for you--that you could exterminate an entire team of six(let's assume Feeding Frenzy is on)in the 8-12 seconds it would take to empty 2.4 clips?

The 1st and 4th enemies wouldn't even have Glass Half Full damage applied to them.

GHF GHF GHF GHF
9 9 4 + 5 9 9 + 9
A B C D E F

Even SUROS would have a hard time catching up, if that's what you're implying. How could that possibly work? If that were true, why does ~~practically~~ no one else use it? Other than the 90% Thorn/Last Word deaths, and 5% Super deaths, the weapons that have killed me in Iron Banner so far are(from most often to least)

The Adept Messenger
Party Crasher
Another Void new shotgun, I can't remember the name right now
Corrective Measure
Bungie's Lie--I mean, Felwinter's Lie
The Adept Scholar

Through all of Iron Banner this week(in fact, most of Crucible EVER), the only Auto Rifles that have killed me are SUROS, Up For Anything, and For The People. Literally in that order. If what you're implying is true, then DBO and B.Net and Kokatu would be complaining about Vanquisher VIII. I'm pretty sure that showed up on my death screen less than five times my whole life.

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The 3rd biggest complaint(IMMEDIATELY after Thorn/Last Word's cheatiness and Shotguns 1-shotting cross-galaxies) is that Auto Rifles are useless--in both PvP AND PvE.

I have no problem with any of these things. People bitch about Destiny all the time. Sometimes they are right, sometimes they aren't. Also, I think the biggest complaint is matchmaking options.

Like always, I can't find any of Bungie's weapon preference statistics, but I don't remember Auto Rifles being at the top.

Nine bullets. Nine bullets. So you're telling me that if you caught them unaware--or if you had them stand still for you--that you could exterminate an entire team of six(let's assume Feeding Frenzy is on)in the 8-12 seconds it would take to empty 2.4 clips?

Yes. It does 19 damage per body shot, 23 per head, no perks. Guardians have a little less than 200 health. Here's me with The Summoner (same impact) today so you can see. http://xboxclips.com/Funkmon/5a0ff893-8750-4bd3-a03e-01a6a33444d9

The 1st and 4th enemies wouldn't even have Glass Half Full damage applied to them.

GHF GHF GHF GHF
9 9 4 + 5 9 9 + 9
A B C D E F

Even SUROS would have a hard time catching up, if that's what you're implying. How could that possibly work? If that were true, why does ~~practically~~ no one else use it? Other than the 90% Thorn/Last Word deaths, and 5% Super deaths, the weapons that have killed me in Iron Banner so far are(from most often to least)

Correct. Suros, with focus fire has a slower TTK than a Vanquisher. Vanquisher has a slower TTK than both those guns ideally. The vanquisher can still outshoot a thorn user if the thorn user misses a shot, same for TLW. A missed auto rifle shot doesn't increase TTK as much as those ones missing.

Thorn has utility beyond it's quick TTK. Guardians use it because it is good. Auto rifles are often less good, but more forgiving.

The Adept Messenger
Party Crasher
Another Void new shotgun, I can't remember the name right now

Matador 64.

Corrective Measure
Bungie's Lie--I mean, Felwinter's Lie
The Adept Scholar

Through all of Iron Banner this week(in fact, most of Crucible EVER), the only Auto Rifles that have killed me are SUROS, Up For Anything, and For The People. Literally in that order. If what you're implying is true, then DBO and B.Net and Kokatu would be complaining about Vanquisher VIII. I'm pretty sure that showed up on my death screen less than five times my whole life.

There is no need, because 9 shots with that archetype autorifle is a similar TTK to most other guns. It's just no worse than anything else. I don't know why you think what I said would make it any better than anything else.

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There is no need, because 9 shots with that archetype autorifle is a similar TTK to most other guns. It's just no worse than anything else. I don't know why you think what I said would make it any better than anything else.

When custom games are implemented, we will square off 1v1. Use your absolute best autorifle. I'll use a random legendary hand cannon. You will not get a single kill.

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In your contrived situation, by sheer luck I'm sure I'd get at least a few.

Destiny has zero 1v1 game types. However, I went one on one with a few thorn users in some games earlier using the summoner and did fine because they missed shots. I won those fights. I lost most, but I won some. Auto rifles do the best with your team helping, where you bring the guy down a bit and they finish him off or vice versa. One on one, hand cannons almost always win, except at extreme range. Duh.

I do not use auto rifles. I think they are almost always not the best choice. I use TLW or Mythoclast or Thorn or The Messenger or any one of dozens of guns. However, auto rifles are always fine and do well enough. They are in no need of a damage buff to go one on one with hand cannons. That's not what they're for. They're there to be the Halo 3 assault rifle.

Get over yourself, and get over trying to argue with everyone on the internet to prove you're right. I never implied auto rifles were better than hand cannons. I never even implied they were better than anything. In fact, I explicitly stated they weren't. I just said they don't need a buff. You don't need to get into a dick measuring contest with me over something I never even said, dude. Not everything is in black and white. The world has shades of grey, and auto rifles are one of them.

Please, try to incorporate some nuance into your thoughts. We're adults here. Not everything needs to be extreme.

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Please, try to incorporate some nuance into your thoughts. We're adults here. Not everything needs to be extreme.

Here is the nuance:

There is absolutely no place in the game where the autorifle is the best choice. No map. No range. Ideally you want it to be useful somewhere. Of the primaries, Scout Rifles dominate long range, and Hand cannons and pulse rifles mid. What does that leave? Close range. This is where the autorifle should shine. But it doesn't. Because shotguns ruin you close range.

If you increase the autorifle damage, decrease the range and increase the spread so they are an up close weapon, then make shotguns very close range only, then now you have a place for them in the game.

It's not a dick measuring contest - it's simply a fact that autorifles are no good in PvP. You even said so yourself. They are not always fine. The situations in which you say you get autorifle kills would still net you kills with other weapons, but other weapons will net you kills an autorifle simply couldn't.

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it's simply a fact that autorifles are no good in PvP.

That's odd. If that were a fact, I wouldn't go ridiculously positive with the low-impact Monte Carlo... And yet I do. Your facts are different than real-world facts...

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I think for the most part all weapons are balanced pretty well. Funkmon has seen me do well with my Autos and I have a wide array of them. I like my Do Gooder, Suros, Vanquisher, and Up for Anything. I'm working on the new crucible one too, but I'm really setting it up for more of a PvE roll.

If there is a weapon set that doesn't get alot of love, its usually not because its an auto, pulse, etc. Its all the low impact weapons. I rarely see Coiled Hiss or Dr Nope, even for shotties its more likely to see the higher impact types because it seems to benefit more at range. Also for heavies. I usually see AAodds or Jolders. Corrective measure is one of the few I consistently see in PvP.

I guess the question is how do you get those weapons to perform better for the masses. Better stability, more range? Slightly more impact?

I would like to see them either roll back the last auto rifle nerf, or nerf hand cannon range. I think that's the biggest issue with hand cannons. Why would I use a scout rifle, when I can use a hand cannon with more impact? Although they do seem tougher to handle and have fewer rounds. I think a hand cannon should be a short range weapon with alot of stopping power, and the range is just too far.

Truly the biggest issue is that the exotic hand cannons outclass all other hand cannons. Exotic autos don't. The exotic pulse rifles are great, but not that outstanding. Mida is good, but its really just weather or not you want the speed buff. But when it comes to hand cannons, why wouldn't I use Thorn?

I'm surprised more people don't use/complain about pulse rifles. The two high impact rifles both kill in two headshots. I guess most folks still haven't tried them out since they had such a bad rap.

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Truly the biggest issue is that the exotic hand cannons outclass all other hand cannons. Exotic autos don't. The exotic pulse rifles are great, but not that outstanding. Mida is good, but its really just weather or not you want the speed buff. But when it comes to hand cannons, why wouldn't I use Thorn?

I was talking to someone about this the other day. Exotic Handcannons suffer from the same issue Gjallarhorn does in PvE - their Exotic Perk is just "Does more damage than it should". No other Exotics do this, and we all know what it's done to PvE with Gjallarhorn. The same applies to the Handcannons - you're at a literal disadvantage if you don't use one of them.

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it's simply a fact that autorifles are no good in PvP.

That's odd. If that were a fact, I wouldn't go ridiculously positive with the low-impact Monte Carlo... And yet I do. Your facts are different than real-world facts...

You'd go positive with a hand cannon too. That means nothing except that you are a good crucible player. If you consistently do BETTER with an AR than with OTHER WEAPONS, then come back to me.

This is why scentific experiments have a control group.

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it's simply a fact that autorifles are no good in PvP.

That's odd. If that were a fact, I wouldn't go ridiculously positive with the low-impact Monte Carlo... And yet I do. Your facts are different than real-world facts...

You'd go positive with a hand cannon too. That means nothing except that you are a good crucible player. If you consistently do BETTER with an AR than with OTHER WEAPONS, then come back to me.

This is why scentific experiments have a control group.

There are plenty of people who've posted RIGHT HERE ON THIS FORUM that they don't get kills as often with hand cannons as with auto rifles - because their targeting skill isn't perfect, and the auto rifle is more forgiving.

Why you have so much trouble understanding that not everyone plays the same idealized game as you do is, and always will be, a mystery to me.

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There are plenty of people who've posted RIGHT HERE ON THIS FORUM that they don't get kills as often with hand cannons as with auto rifles - because their targeting skill isn't perfect, and the auto rifle is more forgiving.

That's the part I keep bringing up... Hand cannons seem to be the most effective weapons in the hands of someone who can consistently land all their shots, but that certainly isn't everyone. I've done plenty of damage with Auto Rifles in the crucible, even after the most recent nerf.

That being said, I don't think Cody is way off base here. Every single crucible match I've played over the past 2 months, including Iron Banner and Trials of Osiris, has been dominated by hand cannons. On average, I see more hand cannons than every other primary weapon class put together. There is a reason for that. Hand Cannons really are more effective for most players in a wider range of situations than any other weapon type.

I'd love to see things balanced out a little better, just to open up more options. I actually prefer using Auto Rifles, but I feel like I can't use them if I'm in a close match, because I'll be at a disadvantage against all the HC users.

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There are plenty of people who've posted RIGHT HERE ON THIS FORUM that they don't get kills as often with hand cannons as with auto rifles - because their targeting skill isn't perfect, and the auto rifle is more forgiving.

Korny is not one of those people. He can shoot.

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Body shots from Thorn are more deadly at range than body shots from sniper rifles. Up close it feels on the level with TLW, Hawkmoon or shotguns, but at mid range and beyond, it's the strongest weapon in the game. Bonus: it punches through allies and enemies, so you never get your shots blocked by overzealous teammates, and you can mow down a whole column of foes in two bursts. Double bonus: Thorn's DoT delays shield regen, which effectively negates a portion of your "recovery" stat and takes you out of combat for longer than any other gun, regardless of whether you survive or not. Simply being hit once by thorn reduces your overall time fighting at full strength more than being shot by any other weapon.

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I wonder what kind of weapon balance test tools Bungie has. I think it'd be fun to code up a little tool that would take a range & a "skill" (accuracy?) parameter (maybe some others) and iterate through all their weapons & various perks & output the average TTK for each weapon at that range. You could even geek out with graphs of the data & various TTK's at various ranges...

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I wonder what kind of weapon balance test tools Bungie has. I think it'd be fun to code up a little tool that would take a range & a "skill" (accuracy?) parameter (maybe some others) and iterate through all their weapons & various perks & output the average TTK for each weapon at that range. You could even geek out with graphs of the data & various TTK's at various ranges...

And some people laugh when I say spreadsheets are my favorite game design tool.

(you could do this in code tool, as most modern DB's have decent statistics tools, but Excel is pretty much designed for this work).

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They don't want an ideal, everything is equal, balance. Rebalancing every couple months keeps things from going stale. It's like releasing a content update because everyone gets excited and starts playing differently. Except all they have to do is change a few numbers.

Edit: this is unrelated to your spreadsheet fun. just got nested there.

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They don't want an ideal, everything is equal, balance. Rebalancing every couple months keeps things from going stale. It's like releasing a content update because everyone gets excited and starts playing differently. Except all they have to do is change a few numbers.

And he's absolutely, 100% correct.

I'm mad bored with the Thorn meta. It's time for the rise of the Scout Rifle!

#nerfexotichandcannons

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One thing I've noticed is that the individual meta of the maps themselves have grown a bit stale, and I wonder if that's because optimal Handcannon range isn't that different to optimal AR range way back when.

New maps have helped, of course, though I'm really not sure another Anomaly/Cauldron style map was needed in the form of Thieve's Den.

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One thing I've noticed is that the individual meta of the maps themselves have grown a bit stale, and I wonder if that's because optimal Handcannon range isn't that different to optimal AR range way back when.

New maps have helped, of course, though I'm really not sure another Anomaly/Cauldron style map was needed in the form of Thieve's Den.

I got my nth MIDA from the gilded bathtub and finally decided to just level the thing up, and I have to say, I'm more impressed than I thought I'd be. I'd never unlocked the MIDA perk before and damn, it's like bhopping.

Actual footage of MIDA in action.

Also yeah, this meta is starting to get old, we could use a switch.

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My MIDA still doesnt have it's signature perk, but it just feels great to use.

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Today we learn!

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I thought the same thing. It first came up and my first thought was 'close quarters again?'

I wish they would make a vex style map with different levels and tiers with some that disappear and reappear. Maybe like a vault of glass jumping puzzle level.

I can just see the rage now.

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Just think of the different engagements you could have with a map with such diverse height!! Titans flying from the sky doing huge smashes, golden gun snippers picking off targets as they jump from pillar to pillar, void walkers blocking platforms with nova vortex until thdhy disappear and guardians fall to their death.

I NEED this map in my life for crucible !

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No need to bet. If they change it, I auto-win. ;)

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I really don't mind it all that much. The only thing that frustrates me is when I only see two shots from a Thorn hit me and I die. What I assume is happening is that there is some slight network delay or packets dropped in which it should have been letting me know that I was getting shot. It is damn near impossible to react to this with the short time-to-kill. It happens every now and then with TLW too, but I think I notice Thorn more because of the poison.

I think the gun is relatively fine (if it gets any tweak I think it should be a slight range reduction), it's just the game behavior that bothers me.

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I would agree with the range adjustment. I am getting kills from across the map that I KNOW I shouldn't be able to get. When I can pick off a sniper with a thorn from across the map, I don't think Bungie actually intended for that to be possible.

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All I hear is....

"I want one because they keep killing me with it, if I had it I wouldn't complain about it. Bungie fix the game so the skerry Thorn's don't kill me."

Wahhhhh

People might use them a ton in trials but I still see plenty of other people using other guns in normal Crucible and even IB. I probably only come across one thorn user per match in normal PVP.

Maybe I'm just being cruel because I don't want my favorite gun buffed because of whiners. My opinion is "stop crying, learn to play better."

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People might use them a ton in trials but I still see plenty of other people using other guns in normal Crucible and even IB. I probably only come across one thorn user per match in normal PVP.

0_0
You can't be serious right?

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I am, I'll count this weekend for you if you like.

Now that I think a bit though it probably has a lot to do with me only being a mediocre player though and who I get matched with when I am by myself running. Perhaps most players at lower levels don't have them yet.

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Nah. I'm terrible and most of my matches have at least 4 Thorns (ally or enemy).

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I am, I'll count this weekend for you if you like.

Yeah I would be interested in that. For instance, you can check out the people in my recent matches and see how many of them have a Thorn bcurrently in their Primary slot. Sure, they could change it out frequently, but at least it is some data.

Maybe it is a console thing? If you are on PS maybe Hawkmoons break up the consistency.

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I am on PS4 and I do notice TON by Hawkmoons so maybe that's a reason! I think the two I notice the most that slaughter me the most are Felwinters and Mythoclast.

I should have a few hours to play this afternoon and I will try to look over and keep some sort of a score going of Thorn kills. Saturday I should be able to count better, I will have longer time to play.

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This is actually really interesting.....

I did some digging on the last 10 games that I played.

I dug up the names of each player on the opposing team and the weapon that they currently have equipped and the last style of game that they played. OBVIOUSLY this isn't going to be very accurate for various reasons (ie: someone changed weapons after they were done to rank up, may frequently switch primary in game etc...)

There were also a few games where there was no thorn on the opposing team.

Thorn shows up a ton but there was a much greater chance of multiple Thorn's in a single group than a solo Thorn runner. You will also see a ton of Vex Mythoclast equipped and a few last words.

This isn't obviously perfect by any means but it's interesting. Going to do my best to record my death's this evening and tomorrow :)

Cauldron
06/04
Defeat

msm247-Fatebringer

Celinious- Vex Mythoclast

TheBlakStallion0-The Last Word

greg_the_pro-Word of Crota

tsavo0-NL Shadow 701x

WorldWideDJ1-NL Shadow 701x

All individuals last game was some form of Crucible

Exodus Blue
06/04
Defeat

ordep666-Thorn

JAGGER_GRIMMJOW- Jewel of Osiris

MazorcaJones-Thorn

stinkybutt-er-Silimar's Wrath

TTG_KARMA_G-Oversoul Edict

TakueLegend-Thorn

All individuals last game was some form of Crucible

Pantheon
06/04
Defeat

birrdman223-MIDA Multi-tool

MotherSanity-Oversoul Edict

haloman14-Fatebringer

Jfresh_8-9-The Last Word

SSgt_LeprechauN-Thorn

I8urPancakez- Vex Mythoclast

Vergil3690-The Last Word

All individuals last game was some form of Crucible, except for MotherSanity and Pancakez

Cauldron
06/04
Defeat

xltz_Jacobx- Couldn't locate user profile

BlkstrTek-Thorn

Red_K-9- Thorn

Dangitboyshoot-Thorn

Zepplin320- The Last Word

Empire4412-Vex Mythoclast

All individuals last game was some form of Crucible, except for Zeppelin

Firebase Delphi
06/03
Victory

XvX_T8TRT0T_XvX-Red Death

perpetual33-Word of Crota

reece_722- NAD31 Salvation

skater03-Hard Light

tribal756-Suros Regime

supersport22-Vex Mythoclast

All individuals last game was some form of Crucible, except for perpetual33 and reece_722

Pantheon
06/03
Victory

RisenCambrie-Monte Carlo

Dr_GoNzO155- Ill Will

phh99-Jewel of Osiris

Lost-in-Marbles-Thorn

magmar300-Thorn

SullivanAnthony-Deadshot Luna

All individuals last game was some form of Crucible

Cauldron
06/03
Victory

PunkRockRuelz06-Oversoul Edict

THIG1000-Atheon's Epilogue

MKNiiTE-Thorn

HersheyBar216-The Last Word

robindahood77-Her Mercy

Srglegend63- Vex Mythoclast

All individuals last game was some form of Crucible except Thig1000

Twilight Gap
06/03
Victory

RivalryMC-Hawkmoon

newtr0n04-Another NITC

om1267-Devil You Know

R10_NightWing-Vanquisher III

BJ-0594-Abyss Defiant

Nad3s1k0-Vex Mythoclast

Unrelatedbear-Her Right Hand

jordonshark09876-Hawkmoon

All individuals last game was some form of Crucible except for Newt and unrelatedbear

Blind Watch
06/03
Victory

Disciple36th-Universal Remote

I_AM_SOAP-Vex Mythoclast

force145-NAD31 Salvation

mkmetz88-NAD31 Salvation

FALLEN_ANGEL_I87-Oversoul Edict

SK_SHADOW_RED_Xv-Her Right Hand

All individuals last game was some form of Crucible

Shores of Time
06/03
Victory

kwmg-Her Mercy

MrSnipershot01-Thorn

TheInfinityReape- Her Right Hand

Mii006-Hawkmoon

califox85-Fang of IrYut

MikeyIrish13-Thorn

All individuals last game was some form of Crucible exept for califox

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People might use them a ton in trials but I still see plenty of other people using other guns in normal Crucible and even IB. I probably only come across one thorn user per match in normal PVP.

0_0
You can't be serious right?

I just jumped over to DestinyTracker and looked at my second-to-last game last night:

http://destinytracker.com/dg/2697551651

1 thorn user (total, both teams). He was 4th on our team.

(The game before this and the game after had more - but the point is, I didn't have to look hard to find a game with only one. :) )

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I just jumped over to DestinyTracker and looked at my second-to-last game last night:

http://destinytracker.com/dg/2697551651

1 thorn user (total, both teams). He was 4th on our team.

(The game before this and the game after had more - but the point is, I didn't have to look hard to find a game with only one. :) )

Yeah I wouldn't doubt that you can find games like that, or even a game without a thorn(!) It is just my experience that they are usually far more common than a single one each game.

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My opinion is "stop crying, learn to play better."

CC

You're new to gaming, so I'll take the opportunity to point out to you that this line of thinking is generally frowned upon and not really a good argument when taking about things that are balanced\unbalanced.

The "git gud" attitude is for the dude-bros of old.

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We can't all have popular opinions. Maybe I just didn't phrase it eloquently enough.

Maybe it's just when I hear "buff's needed" I associate that with "lots of complaints" and it just makes me roll my eyes. As new as I am I have made it work and suffered through.

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Im probably like a stuck record here, but here goes:

If you kill me with Thorn because you're good at the game - cool. That's great for both of us.

If you kill me with Thorn after I've already killed you by being a better shot than you - not cool, and not really good for anyone.

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If you kill me with Thorn because you're good at the game - cool. That's great for both of us.

If you kill me with Thorn after I've already killed you by being a better shot than you - not cool, and not really good for anyone.

I agree with that.

Do you think that's consistent balance issues though, or the game just wigging out?

It seemed like we had an awful lot of that yesterday that wasn't skill based issues, but other problems.

I very rarely get killed by a thorn in a normal game and not think, "yep that one was deserved, I made an error in judgement or strategy" I don't think very often I have a "that was unfair" moment.

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The lag certainly doesn't help, but it's the DoT that bothers me.

I'm conflicted, because to a skiller Thorn user the DoT can be used to track enemies, play keep-away/scare people off, or punish someone moving without cover. But it can also be used as a crutch (and I really, really hate using that word, but I've been deliberating and don't know how else to say it) - "My gun keeps killing you even after you win"

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When I aim duel with another Thorn user, and we both trade two shots, then duck behind cover...man is it satisfying when the other guy dies because I landed headshots, and I live because he didn't land them. Damn that's a great feeling.

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When I aim duel with another Thorn user, and we both trade two shots, then duck behind cover...man is it satisfying when the other guy dies because I landed headshots, and I live because he didn't land them. Damn that's a great feeling.

So, Thorn is most satisfying when it comes down to personal skill against another Thorn user. This should be every duel. It should always come down to skill (and maybe a little luck) as to who wins a fight.

Rewarding skilled play is the whole basis of FPS PvP, and the fact you have to engineer a situation where that's the case vs. a Thorn user (by also using Thorn) is ridiculous!

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Rewarding skilled play is the whole basis of FPS PvP, and the fact you have to engineer a situation where that's the case vs. a Thorn user (by also using Thorn) is ridiculous!

I know the feeling dude. I know the feeling.

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When I aim duel with another Thorn user, and we both trade two shots, then duck behind cover...man is it satisfying when the other guy dies because I landed headshots, and I live because he didn't land them. Damn that's a great feeling.

That's fine. It's when I trade shots with a Thorn user and win because I landed headshots faster with my scout/pulse/TDYK but I still die after they die because they spammed 3 body shots that is annoying. I think the DoT should stop when the user dies. That would feel fair.

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It's just fun punishing players who rely on the DoT as a crutch with a dose of their own medicine.

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DoT as a crutch

I think that's the issue. The only two hand cannons that work well as spray and pray weapons are TLW and Thorn. Spray and pray is kinda the point with TLW, but it is limited by range (somewhat) and capacity. Thorn has good range and capacity. The DoT rewards players that spam body shots and run away or die. You don't have to land headshots to get the kill unless you're up against other Thorn users. In a lot of other cases, as long as you get 3 shots off you'll get the kill, even if you die before they do.

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DoT as a crutch

I think that's the issue. The only two hand cannons that work well as spray and pray weapons are TLW and Thorn. Spray and pray is kinda the point with TLW, but it is limited by range (somewhat) and capacity. Thorn has good range and capacity. The DoT rewards players that spam body shots and run away or die. You don't have to land headshots to get the kill unless you're up against other Thorn users. In a lot of other cases, as long as you get 3 shots off you'll get the kill, even if you die before they do.

Can the issue of Thorn being overpowered, and my joy at trolling the lesser trolls, not be separate?

#nerfexotichandcannons

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I won't rest until your fun is ruined.

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Man.... I remember when I first got Thorn and how underwhelmed I was by it.

It just flat out sucked, as a weapon.

-discussion aside- I'm sure they'll do something about it now, but I wonder if it will be a stealth tweak, or something for all HCs in general.

Personally, I think MANY of the exotics could use a tweak or two.

Universal Remote and NLB would be at the top of my wishlist.

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Man.... I remember when I first got Thorn and how underwhelmed I was by it.

It just flat out sucked, as a weapon.

-discussion aside- I'm sure they'll do something about it now, but I wonder if it will be a stealth tweak, or something for all HCs in general.

Personally, I think MANY of the exotics could use a tweak or two.

Universal Remote and NLB would be at the top of my wishlist.

Don't forget Dragon's Breath

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Man.... I remember when I first got Thorn and how underwhelmed I was by it.

It just flat out sucked, as a weapon.

-discussion aside- I'm sure they'll do something about it now, but I wonder if it will be a stealth tweak, or something for all HCs in general.

Personally, I think MANY of the exotics could use a tweak or two.

Universal Remote and NLB would be at the top of my wishlist.

Don't forget Dragon's Breath

Never got one, don't know what I'm (or it) is missing...

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Man.... I remember when I first got Thorn and how underwhelmed I was by it.

It just flat out sucked, as a weapon.

-discussion aside- I'm sure they'll do something about it now, but I wonder if it will be a stealth tweak, or something for all HCs in general.

Personally, I think MANY of the exotics could use a tweak or two.

Universal Remote and NLB would be at the top of my wishlist.

Don't forget Dragon's Breath

Never got one, don't know what I'm (or it) is missing...

Really? Xur's sold it three times...

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Man.... I remember when I first got Thorn and how underwhelmed I was by it.

It just flat out sucked, as a weapon.

-discussion aside- I'm sure they'll do something about it now, but I wonder if it will be a stealth tweak, or something for all HCs in general.

Personally, I think MANY of the exotics could use a tweak or two.

Universal Remote and NLB would be at the top of my wishlist.

Don't forget Dragon's Breath

Never got one, don't know what I'm (or it) is missing...

Really? Xur's sold it three times...

I only buy the things I know I want.

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3666 views

Man.... I remember when I first got Thorn and how underwhelmed I was by it.

It just flat out sucked, as a weapon.

-discussion aside- I'm sure they'll do something about it now, but I wonder if it will be a stealth tweak, or something for all HCs in general.

Personally, I think MANY of the exotics could use a tweak or two.

Universal Remote and NLB would be at the top of my wishlist.

Don't forget Dragon's Breath

Never got one, don't know what I'm (or it) is missing...

Really? Xur's sold it three times...

I only buy the things I know I want.

But.. but you get a grimiore card...

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Man.... I remember when I first got Thorn and how underwhelmed I was by it.

It just flat out sucked, as a weapon.

syphax is basedgod

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I love watching a skilled Blink hunter. I am so crap at it. Definitely something I need to work on. When used effectively it's so awesome.

I try to use blink and my hunter looks like she's blind, slamming into walls all over the place.

Need to sacrifice some games and keep trying it to see if I can improve.

“A bruise is a lesson... and each lesson makes us better.” GRRM

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How are those of us who can't aim ever supposed to kill anyone?

;)

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GET GOOD KERMIT. GET YOUR BR UP. *crushes Mountain Dew can on forehead, pumps fists in the air, flexes muscles*

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Because of thorn's dots, our team gets WAY more assists when we all use thorn, which gives the team +50 more points per player per kill if they thorn tagged someone and then let another player finish that guy off. We actually did noticeably better in Iron Banner tonight with all of us who normally use Hawkmoon switching to Thorn. K/D ratios were about the same, but I was getting about 400 more points per game (I usually get between 0-3 assists; tonight I got between 5-13).

So, in a very real sense, using Thorn is *the* smart choice for Iron Banner. High damage, great at range, DoT reduces enemy playtime at full health and delays their shield regen, ticking DoT damage shows you where the enemy is if they're behind cover, and you actually get more assist points for your team.

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Kotaku also hates Thorn. (Destiny)