Every patch

https://twitter.com/Bungie/status/590576802713706496?s=09

Something unintentionally changes. Every time.

I'm asking people here who have more experience with frequently patched games than I do: is this common? Do most games screw something up with every patch?

It's getting embarrassing. How are the code and structures set up such that with every single patch something goes wrong?!

I haven't yet played the strike since the patch (that comes tonight), so whatever change it is I'm glad they are fixing it. Any info on what actually changed?

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https://twitter.com/Bungie/status/590576802713706496?s=09

Something unintentionally changes. Every time.

I'm asking people here who have more experience with frequently patched games than I do: is this common? Do most games screw something up with every patch?

It's getting embarrassing. How are the code and structures set up such that with every single patch something goes wrong?!

I have never not one time had a game with a patch come out that didn't inadvertently change something else.

I remember a bunch for Halo Wars (may it rest in peace).

Just had a couple in Bloodborne not long ago.

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I have never not one time had a game with a patch come out that didn't inadvertently change something else.

I think there are two issues:

1. A change works as intended but affects something you didn't anticipate (Mythoclast)
2. Something just breaks (4th Horseman stats randomly changing).

1 I understand. 2 I don't.

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I have never not one time had a game with a patch come out that didn't inadvertently change something else.

I think there are two issues:

1. A change works as intended but affects something you didn't anticipate (Mythoclast)
2. Something just breaks (4th Horseman stats randomly changing).

1 I understand. 2 I don't.

I don't really know what you expect?

The people behind this stuff aren't infallible. They are very good, very talented, but mistakes will be made.

The day that coding becomes 100% automated and games literally write themselves is the day you won't have to worry about it, but not for that reason. More likely, you won't have to worry about it because SkyNet will have removed pesky humans from the equation all together, so it can of course play Half-Life 3 in peace.

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The people behind this stuff aren't infallible. They are very good, very talented, but mistakes will be made.

I'm a software developer. I work with a live system that has about 3000 users. Our system isn't that complex but it works with a fair amount of data. It is nearly IMPOSSIBLE to change something without unintentionally affecting something else.

The irony is, the main reason for this is not the code itself, it's because of what freedoms the code gives to the end user. If the end user had a very defined set of instructions that it's allowed to do upon the system, it would be easy.

Now imagine a much more complex system with you people as the end user. I personally would have high blood pressure or had a stroke within a week of working at Bungie.

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I have never not one time had a game with a patch come out that didn't inadvertently change something else.

I think there are two issues:

1. A change works as intended but affects something you didn't anticipate (Mythoclast)
2. Something just breaks (4th Horseman stats randomly changing).

1 I understand. 2 I don't.

2 IS 1 in that situation. It's just hard to see how or why from an outside perspective. I would imagine that when making changes to existing infrastructure on something at the scale of Destiny, unnoticed consequences are nearly impossible to avoid.

That said, I'm surprised that these unintended effects are so consistent.

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If Bungie changes their mind on things, it becomes a bug.

Atheon teleporting the 3 farthest dudes was a clear choice. Nope, bug. Second Mythoclast nerf? Bug. 4th Horseman being totally different? Bug. Exploitable fix to strike? Bug.

Suuuuuure, Bingle. I believe you.

No, but seriously I'm sure this shit's really hard and really complicated. This kind of stuff happens in MMOs all the time, from what I remember from dating a person who was into that stuff.

"UGH, THEY NERFED MY CLASS!" "UGHHHH THAT ENCOUNTER IS BUGGED NOW!" and so on. I didn't really listen.

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Second Mythoclast nerf? Bug. 4th Horseman being totally different? Bug.

Those two are legitimately, definitively bugs.

The former was a blanket nerf to fusion rifles getting applied to the Mythoclast, as it is a Fusion Rifle, but clearly not having been meant to affect it.

The latter was some kind of transposition error, I forget the specifics.

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It's getting embarrassing. How are the code and structures set up such that with every single patch something goes wrong?!

How is it you are able to say the same thing again &again in a different way? Do you not learn?

Here is the reason in it's simplest form; Game Development is like playing Jenga in a Jenga Snowstorm. This is why (well... in part, as always it goes deeper) there are so many buggy games coming out. New systems, New code, Reworked Pipelines, Cats and Dogs living together...
Mass hysteria.

Look forward to E3.

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I don't understand why you don't understand.

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https://twitter.com/Bungie/status/590576802713706496?s=09

Something unintentionally changes. Every time.

I'm asking people here who have more experience with frequently patched games than I do: is this common? Do most games screw something up with every patch?

It's getting embarrassing. How are the code and structures set up such that with every single patch something goes wrong?!

I haven't yet played the strike since the patch (that comes tonight), so whatever change it is I'm glad they are fixing it. Any info on what actually changed?

If you are completely out of the combat area and kill every enemy in wave 1, the encounter resets and you have to dinklebot again.

Again: If you are completely out of the combat area. Like either by the Ketch or way way up the mountain. On Reddit they're calling it a cheese fix. I'm honestly more embarrassed by the community than Bungie on this one.

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If you are completely out of the combat area and kill every enemy in wave 1, the encounter resets and you have to dinklebot again.

Again: If you are completely out of the combat area. Like either by the Ketch or way way up the mountain. On Reddit they're calling it a cheese fix. I'm honestly more embarrassed by the community than Bungie on this one.

Damn, that's the only way I can solo the thing. Hhm, I'll have to poke my head into combat during the end of the encounter :D

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Again: If you are completely out of the combat area. Like either by the Ketch or way way up the mountain. On Reddit they're calling it a cheese fix. I'm honestly more embarrassed by the community than Bungie on this one.

I don't understand why being up the mountain would be considered out of the play area. We're brought into the area and immediately given the tactical advantage of elevation. I makes zero sense to just hop down into the middle of it and hope for the best (though it is fun).

If they don't want us to just sit back and snipe, why not either give the enemies more cover, so it's difficult to just pick everyone off without coming down to their level, or have the Vex start teleporting in from the mouth of the cave you just came through so that you're now sandwiched between two different groups of enemies on the side of the mountain?

-Disciple

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If they don't want us to just sit back and snipe, why not either give the enemies more cover, so it's difficult to just pick everyone off without coming down to their level, or have the Vex start teleporting in from the mouth of the cave you just came through so that you're now sandwiched between two different groups of enemies on the side of the mountain?

-Disciple

You're assuming they intentionally did this. From Deej's tweet it sound like an unintentional bug from other changes that were made.

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I do wonder what silent changes they made to strikes/winter's run/that combat area/whatever that caused the inadvertent bug, but we'll probably only have to live with it until House of Wolves.

In the meantime, it sounds like you can snipe as usual, but leave one enemy alive at the end of each wave. Then go down to the kill box, kill it, and run for the hills.

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I'd put money on the fact that you're passing through this area somehow (or they re-used assets i.e. the ketch) and there is now shared code between winter's run and something new in the next expansion. And they tested the crap out of it, released it early, and missed this edge case bug they will now hotfix until house of wolves.

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That makes WAY more sense than anything I was coming up with!

-Disciple

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Maybe they save some memory or processing power by limiting the area they're paying attention to? Maybe not specifically for that Strike but perhaps a wider change meant to allow bigger or more elaborate missions later on?

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If they don't want us to just sit back and snipe, why not either give the enemies more cover, so it's difficult to just pick everyone off without coming down to their level, or have the Vex start teleporting in from the mouth of the cave you just came through so that you're now sandwiched between two different groups of enemies on the side of the mountain?

-Disciple

You're assuming they intentionally did this. From Deej's tweet it sound like an unintentional bug from other changes that were made.

I guess my post was really directed more at the players who are considering this a cheese spot. If Bungie really didn't want us up there, it doesn't really make sense to me that they would have designed the encounter in such a way to encourage us to stay there. And even if they didn't realize that the level design encouraged this, it could have been fixed much more elegantly by just moving the Hobgoblin spawn up the hill so that they now spawn in behind the player's favorite perch.

That said, I'm also having a really hard time understanding what intentional change from the latest patch could have bled over into this specific encounter to make it look so much like a really poor solution for what shouldn't even be considered a problem. This is coming from someone with just slightly more than zero coding experience, but the only thing I can think of that seems like it could be even remotely related is some mention of reduced enemy spawns for the Valus Ta'aurc encounter. Anyone have any other theories?

-Disciple

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maybe it has something to do with how the new venus mission interacts with this space?

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maybe it has something to do with how the new venus mission interacts with this space?

That is quite possible!

My guess is that it's a change to their scripting engine/API that was required for some HoW encounters that either they didn't realize was used by this area or, more likely, they did realize it and their testing didn't hit this edge case (sniping from a certain range/location).

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I was guessing that the addition of HoW encounters is what caused this glitch to happen. Now I'm just curious about it.

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I don't know if I can describe this bug, but here it goes.

If you are walking, there is a rock outcropping that forces you a little bit right before you see the Ketch ship. You then turn to the left 90 degrees and there are all our sniping rocks.

Well, in the strike it was always common for me to shortcut that outcropping by jumping over it. In the strike, this causes no problems. In the solo campaign though, it does.

[image]

In the campaign, when you walk to the right of that out cropping, right as you ghost points out the ship, you are hitting a checkpoint, this checkpoint is required in order for the first door inside the ship to open. If you jump the rocks, you won't hit the checkpoint. You'll fight all the normal guys all the way into the ship, and come to a dead end. It took me some time to figure out how I had broken it.

I can imagine a scenario where they redrew the boundaries for the triggers on that portion of the map, and didn't realize it would have this effect.

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I think the very first time I ran that mission it happened to me, but all this time I thought I had gone mad.

Not that I haven't, mind you, just this one particular instance wasn't a product of it.

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Wow, I jump that rock all the time, but I haven't hit that bug, must have been because I don't really play that mission ever...

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If you are running it with a fire team, anyone can trigger it as well. I'm pretty sure I jumped it a few times in a fire team and thought nothing of it.

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That said, I'm also having a really hard time understanding what intentional change from the latest patch could have bled over into this specific encounter to make it look so much like a really poor solution for what shouldn't even be considered a problem. This is coming from someone with just slightly more than zero coding experience, but the only thing I can think of that seems like it could be even remotely related is some mention of reduced enemy spawns for the Valus Ta'aurc encounter. Anyone have any other theories?

-Disciple

My best guess would be that they patched a bug that we didn't know existed, and this was an unintended side effect. Could have even been specifically with that door.

Say for instance that after triggering the encounter, if you dismounted a ghost (ahem, sparrow) and phased through that door it would immediately despawn all the enemies (because you "left the area" and need to load a new one) and the game would move on to the next objective. They fixed it so that "leaving the area" through that door early will not allow the encounter to progress. Finally, they didn't realize that the game counted the rock outcropping as "leaving the area". So if you are up there the game won't progress to the next objective and just keep loading the current one.

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https://twitter.com/Bungie/status/590576802713706496?s=09

Something unintentionally changes. Every time.

I'm asking people here who have more experience with frequently patched games than I do: is this common? Do most games screw something up with every patch?

Just kidding. It's literally every single game. The difference is that PC games have hotfixes (mini-patches) that can be rolled out in hours, and the list of hotfixes for a patch can very well be longer than the patch itself... Consoles have the whole "Certification" issue that keeps bugs and stuff in much longer (in Destiny's case, months).

Just last week, I was watching DE's weekly Warframe stream, and they said that right before they had submitted Update 16 for certification that day, they found a bug introduced with one of the fixes, so they had to roll back that fix, basically keeping a bug in the game in favor of introducing a worse one while they look for a permanent fix to both issues (a hotfix for PC, next update for Console), and so they rolled out a less-than perfect Patch... But unlike other developers, they were nice enough to let us know what issues to expect.

Poop happens all the time, as others here have pointed out. You can only playtest so much before you have to get it out there... Still, it's not like Bungie's making THAT many changes (and heck, I may post U16's changes when it releases on Thursday, to give people an idea of how much Bungie underwhelms with their changes)...

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Just kidding. It's literally every single game.

This. I think the most recent game I played that was very frequently patched was ME3's multiplayer. There were balance changes made to MP every week (that's no an exaggeration - it was done every Tuesday, on a schedule). And yep, frequently those changes would introduce new issues. And that was JUST balance changes - adjustments to powers and weapon behavior.

If anyone's reading this and wondering how a console game updated so often, as I understood it the changes were actually being made server-side. The clients get all their data from the servers when a game session is started, or something along those lines.

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There are tons of moving parts, from a codebase standpoint, from an organizational standpoint. Lots going on, and a remarkable service being provided.

That this was not considered a given for you actually gives me pause.

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That this was not considered a given for you actually gives me pause.

Maybe I just expect the perfect console patches I get from Valve and Platinum.

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That this was not considered a given for you actually gives me pause.

Maybe I just expect the perfect console patches I get from Valve and Platinum.

Can't speak to Valve's games (never played them... I know, crazy right?), but I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that Destiny is more complicated than every game Platinum has ever made put together. We need to remember that the entire game is always online, and it's all completely interconnected. I can't even begin to imagine the logistical challenge of organizing all the various systems and making sure that a change in 1 place doesn't effect anything else.

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That this was not considered a given for you actually gives me pause.

Maybe I just expect the perfect console patches I get from Valve and Platinum.

BOOM, HEADSHOT.

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That this was not considered a given for you actually gives me pause.

Maybe I just expect the perfect console patches I get from Valve and Platinum.

Only on Valve's offline games (and even then not 100% of the time). Go look at Dota 2 updates and you'll find plenty of bugs introduced after patches.

Example: http://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/1mz5va/to_sum_up_all_the_glitchesbugs_since_the_new_patch/

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That this was not considered a given for you actually gives me pause.

Maybe I just expect the perfect console patches I get from Valve

You actually remind me a lot of the Dota2/CS:GO crowd, post patches.

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That this was not considered a given for you actually gives me pause.

Maybe I just expect the perfect console patches I get from Valve

You actually remind me a lot of the Dota2/CS:GO crowd, post patches.

Are those console games? No? Then how does it relate to my post?

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That this was not considered a given for you actually gives me pause.

Maybe I just expect the perfect console patches I get from Valve

You actually remind me a lot of the Dota2/CS:GO crowd, post patches.

Are those console games? No? Then how does it relate to my post?

Because despite what you're saying them being console games doesn't have much to do with it. It's because the games you're talking about are NOT complicated online heavy/only games. The closest to being like Destiny is TF2 which is infinitely less complicated than Destiny.

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That this was not considered a given for you actually gives me pause.

Maybe I just expect the perfect console patches I get from Valve

You actually remind me a lot of the Dota2/CS:GO crowd, post patches.

Are those console games? No? Then how does it relate to my post?

Because despite what you're saying them being console games doesn't have much to do with it. It's because the games you're talking about are NOT complicated online heavy/only games. The closest to being like Destiny is TF2 which is infinitely less complicated than Destiny.

With Valve's console ports, do they actually continue releasing patches, or do they offload that on a third party? The 360 version of CS:GO, for instance, does not receive the same patches or content as the Steam version.

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With Valve's console ports, do they actually continue releasing patches, or do they offload that on a third party? The 360 version of CS:GO, for instance, does not receive the same patches or content as the Steam version.

Valve is only really half interested in console development. Partially do to issues they've had in the past. For example TF2 was supposed to have all of the same content that the PC version had but they couldn't get passed memory issues on the 360 to make it happen. Ever since then their console ports, while they function nearly perfectly, do not receive much in the way of new patches unless there is a big bug to fix.

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With Valve's console ports, do they actually continue releasing patches, or do they offload that on a third party? The 360 version of CS:GO, for instance, does not receive the same patches or content as the Steam version.

Valve is only really half interested in console development. Partially do to issues they've had in the past. For example TF2 was supposed to have all of the same content that the PC version had but they couldn't get passed memory issues on the 360 to make it happen. Ever since then their console ports, while they function nearly perfectly, do not receive much in the way of new patches unless there is a big bug to fix.

So the Blizzard model of console support, then?

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With Valve's console ports, do they actually continue releasing patches, or do they offload that on a third party? The 360 version of CS:GO, for instance, does not receive the same patches or content as the Steam version.

My only reference for a game that is a console game and a PC/Steam game is Dungeon Defenders. I had it on the XBox 360 and it was HORRIBLE hearing the conversation from the dev's between how often the PC game got patches and updates and how often the console did. It also didn't help that they weren't as big as Bungie, and got shafted in the pecking order from Xbox's testers. Basically, it took at least a couple months to get a decent size patch out.

Where as the PC version got updates regularly and more content etc... Basically you had to treat them as two different games because of their unique bugs and what not.

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With Valve's console ports, do they actually continue releasing patches, or do they offload that on a third party? The 360 version of CS:GO, for instance, does not receive the same patches or content as the Steam version.

My only reference for a game that is a console game and a PC/Steam game is Dungeon Defenders. I had it on the XBox 360 and it was HORRIBLE hearing the conversation from the dev's between how often the PC game got patches and updates and how often the console did. It also didn't help that they weren't as big as Bungie, and got shafted in the pecking order from Xbox's testers. Basically, it took at least a couple months to get a decent size patch out.

Where as the PC version got updates regularly and more content etc... Basically you had to treat them as two different games because of their unique bugs and what not.

It's been interesting playing Destiny, as it's my first experience with a console game that gets patches on a sometimes weekly basis. The game has changed pretty significantly in the 7 months it's been out; I can't recall a console game I played that's changed close to as much in it's lifetime, much less half a year.

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That this was not considered a given for you actually gives me pause.

Maybe I just expect the perfect console patches I get from Valve

You actually remind me a lot of the Dota2/CS:GO crowd, post patches.

Are those console games? No? Then how does it relate to my post?

The games aren't really what I'm talking about. More the histrionic reactions from the player base. You'd fit right in.

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That this was not considered a given for you actually gives me pause.

Maybe I just expect the perfect console patches I get from Valve

You actually remind me a lot of the Dota2/CS:GO crowd, post patches.

Are those console games? No? Then how does it relate to my post?

Yes.

http://marketplace.xbox.com/en-US/Product/Counter-Strike-GO/66acd000-77fe-1000-9115-d8025841125a

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Every patch (Destiny)

Every time.

Every time.

Every time.

Every time.

Every time.

Conspiracy time!

Conspiracy time!

Psst. I know.

Way to steal my spotlight... *NM*

It's a legitimate question!

Every patch

Every patch

Every patch

Every patch

Every patch

Every patch

Every patch

Every patch

Every patch

Every patch

Every patch

Every patch

I can think of one bug in that area that a fix could affect

Huh

I can think of one bug in that area that a fix could affect

I can think of one bug in that area that a fix could affect

It's part of proactive bug fixing

Warframe patches never have issues!

Warframe patches never have issues!

It's the very nature of software development. Period.

It's the very nature of software development. Period.

It's the very nature of software development. Period.

If they were perfect, they wouldn't need patched at all.

It's the very nature of software development. Period.

Wait, what?

Wait, what?

Wait, what?

This has me genuinely curious

This has me genuinely curious

This has me genuinely curious

This has me genuinely curious

This has me genuinely curious

Wait, what?

Wait, what?

Heh.

Oh, the ones that happen once every millenia?

Way to steal my spotlight... NM