IB is still absurd. "Bring your best gear" my ass.

Because at level 27, I topped the charts

And look at the level 9 guy with a 1.4 K/D ratio! How is he able to hurt *anyone*???

Of course, because Bungie.net is dumb, so now that I'm level 28 on my Titan, it displays him as level 28 in all past games, instead of as the level that I actually was when I played it. Regardless, a level 27 should not be smoking level 32 players in a straight up 1v1 situation, but I was doing that all game.

"But your weapons are so strong!" Not really.

Suros at 316, Praedith's Revenge at 300, The Swarm at - I am totally serious - 277.

So bringing my best gear is clearly not a requirement. I went into IB last night expecting to get roflstomped out the door. I'm 5 levels below raiding players! There should be no way that I could compete with them. And yet.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm a pretty good PvPer. I understand where the spawns are, how to flip them, where to camp, where the sight lines are etc. I know the IB maps inside and out. My strategy is well above average. But that should not matter.

When I, as level 27, come around the corner and run into a level 32 warlock with Thorn, there should be no doubt as to who will win that fight. But it was me, every damn time (Hawkmoon was a different story). Sure, my sniper rifle took 3 body hits to kill someone where it only takes 2 in the regular Crucible, but who's hitting the body? Not this guy. Not with that gun.

Again, we've been sold short on the value of gear in IB. It's frustratingly small. I guess level 20 characters might have some trouble, but at 5 levels below cap and 4 below the average player, the only thing I noticed was the sniper body hits. I didn't more quickly than my level 31 hunter, and my time to kill was basically the same, too.

What gives?

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Because at level 27, I topped the charts

And look at the level 9 guy with a 1.4 K/D ratio! How is he able to hurt *anyone*???

Of course, because Bungie.net is dumb, so now that I'm level 28 on my Titan, it displays him as level 28 in all past games, instead of as the level that I actually was when I played it. Regardless, a level 27 should not be smoking level 32 players in a straight up 1v1 situation, but I was doing that all game.

"But your weapons are so strong!" Not really.

Suros at 316, Praedith's Revenge at 300, The Swarm at - I am totally serious - 277.

So bringing my best gear is clearly not a requirement. I went into IB last night expecting to get roflstomped out the door. I'm 5 levels below raiding players! There should be no way that I could compete with them. And yet.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm a pretty good PvPer. I understand where the spawns are, how to flip them, where to camp, where the sight lines are etc. I know the IB maps inside and out. My strategy is well above average. But that should not matter.

When I, as level 27, come around the corner and run into a level 32 warlock with Thorn, there should be no doubt as to who will win that fight. But it was me, every damn time (Hawkmoon was a different story). Sure, my sniper rifle took 3 body hits to kill someone where it only takes 2 in the regular Crucible, but who's hitting the body? Not this guy. Not with that gun.

Again, we've been sold short on the value of gear in IB. It's frustratingly small. I guess level 20 characters might have some trouble, but at 5 levels below cap and 4 below the average player, the only thing I noticed was the sniper body hits. I didn't more quickly than my level 31 hunter, and my time to kill was basically the same, too.

What gives?

I think part of the reason 32's get smoked has to do with who is playing IB. Level is not an indication of skill in crucible.

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Because at level 27, I topped the charts

And look at the level 9 guy with a 1.4 K/D ratio! How is he able to hurt *anyone*???

Of course, because Bungie.net is dumb, so now that I'm level 28 on my Titan, it displays him as level 28 in all past games, instead of as the level that I actually was when I played it. Regardless, a level 27 should not be smoking level 32 players in a straight up 1v1 situation, but I was doing that all game.

"But your weapons are so strong!" Not really.

Suros at 316, Praedith's Revenge at 300, The Swarm at - I am totally serious - 277.

So bringing my best gear is clearly not a requirement. I went into IB last night expecting to get roflstomped out the door. I'm 5 levels below raiding players! There should be no way that I could compete with them. And yet.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm a pretty good PvPer. I understand where the spawns are, how to flip them, where to camp, where the sight lines are etc. I know the IB maps inside and out. My strategy is well above average. But that should not matter.

When I, as level 27, come around the corner and run into a level 32 warlock with Thorn, there should be no doubt as to who will win that fight. But it was me, every damn time (Hawkmoon was a different story). Sure, my sniper rifle took 3 body hits to kill someone where it only takes 2 in the regular Crucible, but who's hitting the body? Not this guy. Not with that gun.

Again, we've been sold short on the value of gear in IB. It's frustratingly small. I guess level 20 characters might have some trouble, but at 5 levels below cap and 4 below the average player, the only thing I noticed was the sniper body hits. I didn't more quickly than my level 31 hunter, and my time to kill was basically the same, too.

What gives?

I think part of the reason 32's get smoked has to do with who is playing IB. Level is not an indication of skill in crucible.

Anytime Bungie puts out an event like this with rewards, it draws people into the mix who would not be playing otherwise. Instead of fighting the people who play crucible all the time for fun, you're getting people who may hate crucible, but are playing for the rewards. As such, as a skilled player, you're probably already hitting the top tier players on a normal basis in crucible. Now however, there are a lot more less-skilled players in the pool and you are rolling them.

I noticed this phenomena too. I'm not a slouch, but I do much better in IB than in regular crucible.

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Shouldn't a level 32 take basically zero damage from a level 27? At level 15 there was no chance in hell that I could fight a level 20 enemy in PvE. Skill really shouldn't matter at that point; the guy who hits me twice with Thorn should kill me well before I can blast him down with Suros. Instead, he's dead and I'm able to (barely) survive the damage ticks.

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Shouldn't a level 32 take basically zero damage from a level 27? At level 15 there was no chance in hell that I could fight a level 20 enemy in PvE. Skill really shouldn't matter at that point; the guy who hits me twice with Thorn should kill me well before I can blast him down with Suros. Instead, he's dead and I'm able to (barely) survive the damage ticks.

The multiplier isn't the same as PvE. If you both had the same gun and landed the same shots then yeah, the 32 beats the 27. But by a shot, not by half his health.

And the guy with his thorn is probably not maximizing his stability. He probably doesn't know how to land head shots on a moving human target. He isn't ducking for cover because he assumes he can steam roll a 27 and he hasn't accounted for the fact that everyone else is using a stagger-chaining auto cannon like Suros. He's probably not familiar with the maps/loadouts and doesn't realize that Thorn isn't the best choice on, say, Anomaly. He may not even know which control points are the best. And so he dies. A lot.

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I actually like Thorn on Anomaly if I'm standing across from B where no pays attention to you hand cannon sniping away at them suckas trying to cap B. :) Will adjust when the hand cannons get nerfed for range though.

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I actually like Thorn on Anomaly if I'm standing across from B where no pays attention to you hand cannon sniping away at them suckas trying to cap B. :) Will adjust when the hand cannons get nerfed for range though.

It's a good point. I'm not a fan of distance weapons on anomaly at all, but this mostly stems from the idea that you really can control that map just from the two paths to B from C; you shouldn't be entering that sight-line if you can help it. I usually spring for TLW and a sniper, or a low RoF AR and pocket infinity. Thorn and a shotty might work though; you just lack that medium range option running through all those hallways (I think of Thorn as a more Long to Medium-Long range weapon).

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Actually, that's what I run on Anomaly. Thorn and a shotgun (or an auto-rifle instead of Thorn). And for the most part, I hang on the ramp that leads to B and shotgun people trying to come in to cap. It gives me quick access to C heavy, I can provide support for C if it's being capped. I like it.

Shooting into B generally happens if I've spawned over there. I'll hang out opposite of B (the way I'm facing B, C is to my left, and I hug the side closer to C than A). There's one door to my right for people to come in at me, which helps me cause it's a choke point and I can shotgun them. If I'm running thorn I can hit people at B and anyone trying to come from my far right. And if anyone tries to come up the 90 degree stairs to my left, I can shotgun them too with the slight advantage of having the higher ground (easier for chest/headshots). That being said, I do eventually have to move simply because I'm not near any zones or ammo really there.

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Actually, that's what I run on Anomaly. Thorn and a shotgun (or an auto-rifle instead of Thorn). And for the most part, I hang on the ramp that leads to B and shotgun people trying to come in to cap. It gives me quick access to C heavy, I can provide support for C if it's being capped. I like it.

Shooting into B generally happens if I've spawned over there. I'll hang out opposite of B (the way I'm facing B, C is to my left, and I hug the side closer to C than A). There's one door to my right for people to come in at me, which helps me cause it's a choke point and I can shotgun them. If I'm running thorn I can hit people at B and anyone trying to come from my far right. And if anyone tries to come up the 90 degree stairs to my left, I can shotgun them too with the slight advantage of having the higher ground (easier for chest/headshots). That being said, I do eventually have to move simply because I'm not near any zones or ammo really there.

See, you know what you're doing. That's what I like about you.

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You two, between your guides and the banter here, have really caused me to think more strategically about how I play. My default mode is still to instinctively run at people with a fusion-rifle, but every once in a while, I'll stop and think, "I should be more worried about spawn flipping at this point." I'm pretty sure my teammates are appreciative of your efforts.

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You two, between your guides and the banter here, have really caused me to think more strategically about how I play. My default mode is still to instinctively run at people with a fusion-rifle, but every once in a while, I'll stop and think, "I should be more worried about spawn flipping at this point." I'm pretty sure my teammates are appreciative of your efforts.

I still need to see Fade run a Thorn and an armor piercing sniper. I feel like he could ruin people with that combo, just zeroing in on them while they burn behind "cover".

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Ahhhh, if only I had an armor piercing sniper. I only have 1 legendary sniper and it's a 300 Chosen. RNGesus hasn't blessed me in that way quite yet.

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Perhaps I shall pick one up tonight then :)

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This is the weapon I was using last night to shot people behind cover. The Vendor LDR is a beast.

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Looks like I'll be waiting till after IB. My Warlock has the closest amount of Vanguard points, but I don't know that I have time to IB like I'd like and get those points this week. I've never gotten any IB gear before and I'd really like to give it a run.

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I've always felt I needed to play PvP strategically because everyone else's thumbs seem more coordinated than mine. :) I basically assume people are better at aiming than I am, so that means my best advantages come from tactics and position. That being said, I still make boneheaded mistakes. I'm really great at running into a room that I know has more than 1 enemy in and getting my ass killed quick :)

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I actually like Thorn on Anomaly if I'm standing across from B where no pays attention to you hand cannon sniping away at them suckas trying to cap B. :) Will adjust when the hand cannons get nerfed for range though.

This is why even though it's only 300 attacks, I'm using TDYK in Iron Banner. First if all, it's still a 3 shot kill, so the difference in attack doesn't matter, and second, it has INSANE range for a hand cannon. Great fate of fire and stability really make it hard to beat.

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And the guy with his thorn is probably not maximizing his stability. He probably doesn't know how to land head shots on a moving human target. He isn't ducking for cover because he assumes he can steam roll a 27 and he hasn't accounted for the fact that everyone else is using a stagger-chaining auto cannon like Suros. He's probably not familiar with the maps/loadouts and doesn't realize that Thorn isn't the best choice on, say, Anomaly. He may not even know which control points are the best. And so he dies. A lot.

I am this guy.

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And the guy with his thorn is probably not maximizing his stability. He probably doesn't know how to land head shots on a moving human target. He isn't ducking for cover because he assumes he can steam roll a 27 and he hasn't accounted for the fact that everyone else is using a stagger-chaining auto cannon like Suros. He's probably not familiar with the maps/loadouts and doesn't realize that Thorn isn't the best choice on, say, Anomaly. He may not even know which control points are the best. And so he dies. A lot.

I am this guy.

I got a hearty guffaw out of this. You're a classy dude.

You played pretty well when we played a week ago, just stop playing with randoms!

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Shouldn't a level 32 take basically zero damage from a level 27? At level 15 there was no chance in hell that I could fight a level 20 enemy in PvE. Skill really shouldn't matter at that point; the guy who hits me twice with Thorn should kill me well before I can blast him down with Suros. Instead, he's dead and I'm able to (barely) survive the damage ticks.

Right now the damage curve is such that anyone within two levels of you is basically even with you not counting attack and defense stats. So that level 27 might as well be a level 29... and my level 31 characters, annoyingly, are basically level 32. I think the damage curve should be increased again to at least make every level matter somewhat. When multiplied by the five level difference you were talking about this would add up to quite the change to how it is now.

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Shouldn't a level 32 take basically zero damage from a level 27? At level 15 there was no chance in hell that I could fight a level 20 enemy in PvE. Skill really shouldn't matter at that point;

Why on earth do you want that?

The level/scaling works totally different versus other players. Your 316 Suros makes your damage output effectively a level 31 - meaning you only get a tiny, tiny nerf compared to having 320 or higher. Their higher-level weapons (assuming they actually have them) cannot kill you any faster than normal crucible mode - being over-leveled offers zero advantage. You only get an advantage if the lower-level player has lower-level weapons.

AFAIK/IIRC

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AFAIK/IIRC

I'm pretty sure that is correct.

It's not so much the level you are, but what you are wearing\using and it's level.

The way Destiny does levels is very screwy, and still hard to understand.

The only numbers that matter in Iron Banner are Attack and Defense.

I think. Pretty sure.

(ignore perks for the sake of argument, like extra ammo, faster melee blah blah)

So looking at armor, the current Crota raid armor is the armor to have, to maximize your total defense. However, the difference between that armor and a lvl 25 may not be as much as you think...after all, you need to be at least lvl 20 to wear it....lol. It makes sense in my head.

It would be easier if player level and armor level were not two different things, then you could compare apples to apples, but lvl based on experience alone only mattered 1-20. NOW THERE, is where I would imagine you'd notice a tremendous difference, say a lvl 15 player fighting a 32, who can absorb way more damage.

The difference between 20 and 32 is to me, very superficial. Technically, WE ARE ALL LEVEL 20s. People expected a more drastic difference between them, but light level doesn't really mean the same thing in PVE that it does in PVP. Things scale so differently....this game makes my head hurt sometimes.

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Yeah, you're probably right. It's still weird though. I know my armor level is much lower than a level 32 Titan, but we still take about the same amount of time to die. Also, why is my 277 Swarm such a beast?

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Anytime Bungie puts out an event like this with rewards, it draws people into the mix who would not be playing otherwise. Instead of fighting the people who play crucible all the time for fun, you're getting people who may hate crucible, but are playing for the rewards. As such, as a skilled player, you're probably already hitting the top tier players on a normal basis in crucible. Now however, there are a lot more less-skilled players in the pool and you are rolling them.

I noticed this phenomena too. I'm not a slouch, but I do much better in IB than in regular crucible.

Yeah I've noticed this too, and when I DO get matched against someone 5 levels higher than me who knows what they're doing I do get stomped pretty hard. It just happens way less often.

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Anytime Bungie puts out an event like this with rewards, it draws people into the mix who would not be playing otherwise. Instead of fighting the people who play crucible all the time for fun, you're getting people who may hate crucible, but are playing for the rewards. As such, as a skilled player, you're probably already hitting the top tier players on a normal basis in crucible. Now however, there are a lot more less-skilled players in the pool and you are rolling them.

And it seems I'm destined to be placed with these very people when I play IB by myself... at least last night it was that way. I'm not great, but I'm not a total slouch either (positive kdr every match last night, around 1.4). It seemed that I was one of the best on my team every match. Admittedly I was working on the thorn bounty & could have used slightly better weapons, but I don't think I was a drag on my team.

Here's the breakdown out of 5 matches last night: 1 defeat - (kdr 1.18, score 2710) rest of the team had a kdr < 0.8. 1 victory- (kdr 3.00, score 480) I joined the match at the very end, I killed 3 & didn't die, 1 other person had a kdr > 1.0 (3.67). 1 defeat - (kdr 1.67 score 3315) I was with 3 other players who had a kdr > 1.0, we lost by 1000 points, we did not play as a team too well, this was the only 'good game'. 1 defeat - (kdr 1.36 score 2790) One other person had a kdr > 1.0. 1 defeat - (kdr 1.38 score 3415) I was the only person on my team with a kdr > 1.0.

Anyone on PS4 planning on running some IB this week?

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Don't feel too bad. We had a team of three for a couple hours last night that twice went at least 0 and 5. I think it was 0 and 7, a win, then 0 and 5, then we got some more DBO help and won several straight with the occasional close game or WTH crushing defeat. We weren't playing too badly most games, but we still kept just getting crushed over and over... because of our randoms I guess...

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Randoms in our last game especially hurt because they took the heavy right away. We'd have two people with heavy to the other team's four or five. It was a slaughter.

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Why is the house a mess? Project not finished on time? Late to work?
It's not my fault, some rando came over and fracked it all up, that's why.

It's like the internet gaming equivalent of the dog ate it ;-)

But yes, when playing as a team I rarely do worse than a random person. Though, I'm also quick to forget when a rando does better than my entire team :-D

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Though I prefer to reserve claims of lag for either actual lag... or gigantic strategic blunders on my part :p

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You mean like Batman the other day?

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Batman was more awesome than frustrating. Just stepped out of a shadow all menacing and threatening but he rarely killed anyone. :p

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You're right of course. But this time it really was true. :-)

It was really infuriating. We'd all be planning our strategy telling people when we're going to pop the heavies, and then this guy would just open it up for himself while we were all gathering together. There was no external enemy pressure to prompt the hasty open. He just was doing it selfishly. Meanwhile the enemy team was coming at us with everything they had. It was a close match that we lost because of ammo management. That is lame.

Anyway, I'll stop bitching. We should have adjusted our strategy around that after the first experience of it.

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You're right of course. But this time it really was true. :-)

It was really infuriating. We'd all be planning our strategy telling people when we're going to pop the heavies, and then this guy would just open it up for himself while we were all gathering together. There was no external enemy pressure to prompt the hasty open. He just was doing it selfishly. Meanwhile the enemy team was coming at us with everything they had. It was a close match that we lost because of ammo management. That is lame.

Anyway, I'll stop bitching. We should have adjusted our strategy around that after the first experience of it.

Hey, I warned you. 9:15. 6:20. 3:15. Get there early!

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No kidding! I start camping at the initial spawn. How's that for early?

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I'd like to, maybe even tonight, but probably before you get on. :(

I am one of those people who will make you look good by comparison.

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Anyone on PS4 planning on running some IB this week?

I'll be on at around 7:30 PST

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I won't be able to make it tonight, but Thursday, Saturday, Sunday & Monday nights after 8:30 PM MST work for me. Maybe we could schedule an event for tomorrow between the raids.

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Most nights around 8:30 I'll be on and looking to IB. My PS4 name is Kahzgul. Be sure to reference DBO in your friend/party request or I'll think you're one of the randos I get. Uh, also my buddies and I make a lot of poop and poop-adjacent jokes while we play. You have been warned!

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I swore I'd ignore IB this time... but I'd be willing to run with you some when I'm on. =)

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I can't stand Crucible, and avoid it. I'm terrible at PvP. But I faithfully grind IB for the rewards, and also because I come close to enjoying it.

For some reason, I'm actually able to accomplish 'not completely pathetic' once and a while. Even if it's just a matchmaking illusion, I still vaguely have fun.

It's almost as if I'm supposed to. It's weird.

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Again, we've been sold short on the value of gear in IB. It's frustratingly small. I guess level 20 characters might have some trouble, but at 5 levels below cap and 4 below the average player, the only thing I noticed was the sniper body hits. I didn't more quickly than my level 31 hunter, and my time to kill was basically the same, too.

What gives?

I had thought that the sharp drop-off occurred five levels below the target, but in this game (that ended up being 3v4 in the enemy's favor), the 25 on their team (6+ levels below us) had the highest score (which might explain why the three of us wrecked them)... So there's definitely shenanigans going on...

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I cant find the post because Im at work, but I was reading that (allegedly) anything over level 30 is treated as only being level 30.

So while you were playing 5 levels below your opponents, you were functionally only 3 levels down. According to Bungie players within 3 levels of yourself are only at a slight advantage or disadvantage, but that gap increases at 4 or greater level difference.

Tl;Dr - Allegedly(!!!), Lvl 27 should have little issue with 32s, but 26 and under should see more of a difference.

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Seriously, why would a level 30 and level 32 be treated identically?

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Seriously, why would a level 30 and level 32 be treated identically?

If not, then that's probably why.

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Nope. This is why it's only old control maps.

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IB is still absurd. "Bring your best gear" my ass. (Destiny)

IB is still absurd. "Bring your best gear" my ass.

This

But but but

Not Quite

Tangent: Thorn on Anomaly

Tangent: Thorn on Anomaly

Tangent: Thorn on Anomaly

Tangent: Thorn on Anomaly

Tangent: Thorn on Anomaly

Tangent: Thorn on Anomaly

Armor Piercing Sniper... if only...

For 150 marks...that default LDR is a beast.

For 150 marks...that default LDR is a beast.

Do it!

For 150 marks...that default LDR is a beast.

Playing Strategically

Tangent: Thorn on Anomaly

Not Quite

My sides.

But but but

But but but

This is correct, pretty sure.

This is correct, pretty sure.

This

My Assigned Teams were wonderful </sarc>

Heh.

Heh.

Yep. We could have one but for the random... :(

I wish I could do that in RL...

Well, it's either that or lag.

Well, it's either that or lag.

Well, it's either that or lag.

But, but, but...

But, but, but...

But, but, but...

My Assigned Teams were wonderful </sarc>

My Assigned Teams were wonderful </sarc>

My Assigned Teams were wonderful </sarc>

I'll be on

My Assigned Teams were wonderful </sarc>

Yay, I'm insignificant statistical proof!

Is that Arcee I see?

Beryllium Bologna!

IB is still absurd. "Bring your best gear" my ass.

Apparently the level advantage caps at 30

If that's true, I declare shenanigans on Bungie

Is IB exclusive to the expansion?

Is IB exclusive to the expansion?

I hadn't considered that, but it makes sense.