
I think the changes to Blind Watch made it worse :/ (Destiny)
by Ragashingo , Official DBO Cryptarch, Thursday, November 20, 2014, 00:14 (3904 days ago)
Today I think I lost every game of Blind Watch that I started on A side. Of all the maps I feel this is at least very unfair to one of the teams and might even be broken. And, I think perhaps the recent changes actually made it worse. Here why I think so:
1. A is still off alone by itself. Starting there you have to cross the entire map to get to either of the other points. Start at C and you have a doorway not 10 meters away that takes you through the interior completely protected from any approaching enemy.
2. Point B, while a bit more attackable now, is still highly secure and defender friendly since it is surrounded by tiny doorway chokepoints. That might be ok if it was in a central location but it's not. It's a whole lot closer to C than it is to A making it a big advantage to the C team.
3. By moving C Bungie has, in my opinion, made it worse for the A team because C now requires them to cross even more of the map to try and attack. Really, leaving it where it was with the window shutters closed might have been the fairer choice.
I'm not really sure how I'd fix this map. Maybe place A down in that water filled hole that's inbetween B and the old A. That big gap you have to jump over as you head towards the upper B door. That way A would be much closer to B instead of being the odd point out so much. Then move C back to its old position... or maybe to that spot on the A side of its wall right by the stairs leading up. I love the look of Blind Watch but for the most part only half the map really gets used in control which is a huge disadvantage to the team that starts in the other half! :(
Thoughts?

I think the changes to Blind Watch made it worse :/
by ChaosSociety, Oregon, Thursday, November 20, 2014, 00:21 (3904 days ago) @ Ragashingo
I don't know exactly where would be the best spot for A, but just closer. Anywhere closer. It's still a hike and a half away if you spawn over there, and then you just get immediately killed at a choke point.

I think the changes to Blind Watch made it worse :/
by iconicbanana, C2-H5-OH + NAD, Portland, OR, Thursday, November 20, 2014, 06:24 (3904 days ago) @ ChaosSociety
It kind of ruined the meta for capping c. You can't use the roof if you start at a anymore; teams starting at c can snipe down any incoming player. The b point change I don't mind so much, it actually swings the advantage to whoever holds the doorway near a, and that's a good thing for balance, but because the distance between b and c is so reduced, and c is so defensible, starting at a is ultimately a death sentence.

I think the changes to Blind Watch made it worse :/
by Speedracer513 , Dallas, Texas, Thursday, November 20, 2014, 00:23 (3904 days ago) @ Ragashingo
I totally agree that it's worse now. If you cap A at all, it seems like it will always spawn you over there, regardless of whether you also have B and/or C. B might be a little easier to attack from the doors or heavy ammo spawn, but it is much harder to attack from the hallway just outside where it used to be. It feels like there are really only two viable routes in there now instead of the magic number of three that make control points feel much more balanced and fair.
This has become one of my least favorite maps
by HavokBlue, California, Thursday, November 20, 2014, 04:07 (3904 days ago) @ Ragashingo
As it's turned into a tremendous campfest where it feels like whoever can hold the interior wins.

This has become one of my least favorite maps
by bluerunner , Music City, Thursday, November 20, 2014, 04:56 (3904 days ago) @ HavokBlue
As it's turned into a tremendous campfest where it feels like whoever can hold the interior wins.
I camped the lower hallway between B and C last night and easily got my bounty for 10 kills without dying. It's easy to cover both points from there and I had a steady supply of heavy ammo. Moving the heavy ammo to the upper floor could bring the campers out of that hallway.

Fix it?
by Blackt1g3r , Login is from an untrusted domain in MN, Thursday, November 20, 2014, 06:33 (3904 days ago) @ Ragashingo
Maybe they need to leave the control points unbalanced, keep them where they originally were. Instead, move the heavy ammo so that the team defending A has easier access to it. That way there is a slight advantage to the team stuck with only one control point?

Fix it?
by iconicbanana, C2-H5-OH + NAD, Portland, OR, Thursday, November 20, 2014, 06:48 (3904 days ago) @ Blackt1g3r
I honestly don't think it needed fixing, I won on alpha all the time before if my team immediately went to c. It was just a strategy heavy map, now it's camper heavy with too much accesses to heavy ammo for team bravo.
Instead, move the heavy ammo so that the team defending A has easier access to it.
Originally, there was a heavy ammo spawn directly under A. I always went to A to get my Heavy ammo, b/c everyone was always fighting over the heavy ammo at B.

I beg to differ
by kidtsunami , Atlanta, GA, Thursday, November 20, 2014, 06:34 (3904 days ago) @ Ragashingo

Oh, DEFINITELY.
by Morpheus , High Charity, Thursday, November 20, 2014, 06:50 (3904 days ago) @ Ragashingo
The sniper-block walls inside, that I get--but the new heavy weapon placement still isn't in a good place. It's just forcing players to go to a seldom visited part of the map. And the closed shutter makes the stuff really hard. I mean, if anyone goes after C, you're boned. And it's still there on SlayMatch, which means no escape route/cover when you need it. The extra barricades inside don't really matter that much--I actually got kills--plenty of them--walking up and down that hallway leading to the door at B. It could still spawn a problem.

I think the changes to Blind Watch made it worse :/
by Xenos , Shores of Time, Thursday, November 20, 2014, 08:57 (3904 days ago) @ Ragashingo
I think it definitely still has problems, but I like the new layout a lot more than the old one. Part of it is not everyone online has adjusted yet. But even some of the changes have led randoms to play differently in a positive way.
Couple points, positive first:
* Going from A to C is much more viable now as the route is a little shorter, and much more direct.
* Heavy ammo near A is more accessible, a lot more people actually go for it so my team actually has heavy ammo when we're spawning at A instead of ignoring it.
* Sniping from around C is much more hazardous now as there is very little cover with the windows closed.
* The 3 routes to attack B all have open lines of sight on the capture point immediately when you get in the building. Which in turn makes it much more difficult to hold B than it used to be.
Negative:
* Choke-point door from A side door to B is still too easy to hold.
* Grenades aren't as good for clearing out B since there are more places to go from the point.
* A is way too open compared to how it was before.
* A is still much worse to hold than C.
There are others, but that's what I come up with easily off the top of my head.

I think the changes to Blind Watch made it worse :/
by Ragashingo , Official DBO Cryptarch, Thursday, November 20, 2014, 09:06 (3904 days ago) @ Xenos
I think it definitely still has problems, but I like the new layout a lot more than the old one. Part of it is not everyone online has adjusted yet. But even some of the changes have led randoms to play differently in a positive way.
Couple points, positive first:
* Going from A to C is much more viable now as the route is a little shorter, and much more direct.
Shorter? They moved it 50 or so meters further away from A.
* Heavy ammo near A is more accessible, a lot more people actually go for it so my team actually has heavy ammo when we're spawning at A instead of ignoring it.
I don't actually know where they moved it yet. I think it must be in a better spot because the randoms seem to slurp it up before I can look back and spot the icon! :p
* The 3 routes to attack B all have open lines of sight on the capture point immediately when you get in the building. Which in turn makes it much more difficult to hold B than it used to be.
Yeah, I think taking B is easier... if you could ever get to it. But I have to cross most of the map just to try and survive a typically heavily defended chokepoint to start my attack on B.
Negative:
* Choke-point door from A side door to B is still too easy to hold.
Yep.
* Grenades aren't as good for clearing out B since there are more places to go from the point.
Yep.
* A is way too open compared to how it was before.
I found it ok but:
* A is still much worse to hold than C.
Very yes. On Shores of Time or even Rusted Lands (which I think has some minor problems as well) you might give up A for a while but it is still valuable to take back and hold if you need to. In Blind Watch A is a death sentence in every way. Longer travel times, less cover, in a low point so you immediately get snipped at when exiting it, etc.
There are others, but that's what I come up with easily off the top of my head.
B's heavy ammo should be moved somewhere else. Right now it's at the back side of the map, at the back of the highly defendable B+C zone. near team C's spawn point...

I think the changes to Blind Watch made it worse :/
by Xenos , Shores of Time, Thursday, November 20, 2014, 09:12 (3904 days ago) @ Ragashingo
Couple points, positive first:
* Going from A to C is much more viable now as the route is a little shorter, and much more direct.
Shorter? They moved it 50 or so meters further away from A.
If it is longer it still feels shorter, maybe it's because I can actually consistently MAKE IT from A to C unlike the previous setup.
* Heavy ammo near A is more accessible, a lot more people actually go for it so my team actually has heavy ammo when we're spawning at A instead of ignoring it.
I don't actually know where they moved it yet. I think it must be in a better spot because the randoms seem to slurp it up before I can look back and spot the icon! :p
It's inside the moving turbine structure.

I think the changes to Blind Watch made it worse :/
by Ragashingo , Official DBO Cryptarch, Thursday, November 20, 2014, 09:15 (3904 days ago) @ Xenos
Couple points, positive first:
* Going from A to C is much more viable now as the route is a little shorter, and much more direct.
Shorter? They moved it 50 or so meters further away from A.
If it is longer it still feels shorter, maybe it's because I can actually consistently MAKE IT from A to C unlike the previous setup.
Well... A moved towards C and C moved back towards the edge of the map. It may actually even out but it didn't get shorter I don't think.

The roof is less useful to go from A to C now as well
by iconicbanana, C2-H5-OH + NAD, Portland, OR, Thursday, November 20, 2014, 09:19 (3904 days ago) @ Ragashingo
Being on the roof above the previous C location is no longer a point of strength now; the angle allows from the team holding C to both hold C and cover the roof, without having to worry about being flanked from below; effectively, this bottled two paths from A to C (over the roof and then down and from behind, or directly under the roof) into a single path, requiring less players to hold/cover C.
I like the maps that aren't balanced with each point being equal. The fact of the matter is that having unbalanced maps makes strategy important, and the strategy for Blindwatch is clearly "Go directly to C. Do not pass Go. Do not collect $200." That's fine by me. The team that starts at C only has a slight advantage over the team that starts at A in so much that everyone on their team needs to know to hold C at all costs and to not ever try to take A. It only takes one little goomba to screw up that plan.
I do hate the shuttered window though, and I 100% agree that moving point C further back made it easier to hold rather than more balanced.
Right now point C has far more access paths to point B than point A does. From C you can: Go through the lower door in back, up the stairs to B. Through the side lower door near C, past the heavy ammo, then up the stairs to B, Go through the side lower door near the old point C, past the heavy ammo, then up to B, up to the shuttered window, down the hall, through the door past old B to new B.
From point A you have: Through the choke point door down the stairs to B or Down the hallway past old B to new B. All other path options for A converge at the hallway, so they don't actually make any difference to enemy players holding the choke points.
If I had my druthers, I'd move the points yet again, to:
- Point A: On the ground below and behind the rotating turbine. It would invite grenades, but be more defensible and with blocked line of sight, enemies would have to guess if anyone was there or not.
- Point B: In the choke point at the top of the stairs. Remove the door from the top so assaulting players from A can throw grenades in.
- Point C: Where it was originally, under the sloped roof.
Heavy ammo spawns:
- Near Point A: Up and behind point A where the original Point A zone was.
- Near Point C: Inside the window above C.
Other geometry changes I would like to see:
- Remove the shutter from the window over C.
- Remove the door at the top of the stairs between A and B.
- Add an opening in the wall one floor directly below the door at the top of the stairs where you could jump from the blown-out lower floor to the platforms on the pipes by B. This route might need an additional platform added on the pipes, too.

I agree, BUT...
by Ragashingo , Official DBO Cryptarch, Thursday, November 20, 2014, 11:55 (3903 days ago) @ Kahzgul
I like the maps that aren't balanced with each point being equal. The fact of the matter is that having unbalanced maps makes strategy important, and the strategy for Blindwatch is clearly "Go directly to C. Do not pass Go. Do not collect $200." That's fine by me. The team that starts at C only has a slight advantage over the team that starts at A in so much that everyone on their team needs to know to hold C at all costs and to not ever try to take A. It only takes one little goomba to screw up that plan.
They only have a slight advantage to taking C perhaps... but they start directly by the key, highly defensible point B where the A team starts near... the cool looking but useless windmill and has the cross the entire map in the open to get anywhere useful. C team can just go directly inside and hold the doors that let them know exactly where an enemy is...

I think the changes to Blind Watch made it worse :/
by unoudid , Somewhere over the rainbow, Thursday, November 20, 2014, 12:22 (3903 days ago) @ Ragashingo

I think the changes to Blind Watch made it worse :/
by Ragashingo , Official DBO Cryptarch, Thursday, November 20, 2014, 12:31 (3903 days ago) @ unoudid
The fact that they didn't feel the need to mark up half the map perfectly demonstrates the problems.