Loot system isn't as broken as you think. (Destiny)
by Kermit 
, Raleigh, NC, Monday, September 29, 2014, 09:05 (3949 days ago)
http://www.polygon.com/2014/9/29/6862989/destiny-loot-cave-broken-engram
For the record, my cave sitting days are probably over, except as a substitute for a pause button.
If I run across cave shooters, I'll just laugh at their innumeracy.
The disco cave does sound enticing, though.
Loot system isn't as broken as you think.
by rliebherr , St. Louis, Missouri, Monday, September 29, 2014, 09:30 (3949 days ago) @ Kermit
I am so glad he wrote that article. It seems to be obvious, but I guess it wasn't.
That's more about the loot cave not being the fastest option
Rather the loot system working or not.
The loot system is still messed up, as admitted in the dev notes last week.
That's more about the loot cave not being the fastest option
Rather the loot system working or not.
The loot system is still messed up, as admitted in the dev notes last week.
Maybe you don't draw a distinction between "messed up" and "tweaking would make it better", but I do, and I'm sure Bungie does as well. I don't see where Bungie ever said the system was "messed up" or in some way screwed up.
A protip for life: Just because someone knows how to make something better, is not a claim by that person that the previous iteration is "messed up". You will find this tip very helpful in future careers and relationships.
Hot life pro-tips here, how did I manage without them?
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Loot system isn't as broken as you think.
by Cody Miller , Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Monday, September 29, 2014, 09:39 (3949 days ago) @ Kermit
If I run across cave shooters, I'll just laugh at their innumeracy.
I play Cave shooters every time I go to Japan Town :-p
The fact the next patch mostly about loot I disagree.
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It is?
Are you counting weapons balancing a "loot" issue? Because I only see one change, engram decryption, that is a change to the loot acquisition system, there is no change to how, when, or the quantity of loot you will obtain.
Technically, they could also bump down the chance of finding better colored engrams making the end result of decryption pre and post update be identical, but post update you will at least have a good idea about what you found and not hate the cryptarch.
Are you counting weapons balancing a "loot" issue? Because I only see one change, engram decryption, that is a change to the loot acquisition system, there is no change to how, when, or the quantity of loot you will obtain.
Technically, they could also bump down the chance of finding better colored engrams making the end result of decryption pre and post update be identical, but post update you will at least have a good idea about what you found and not hate the cryptarch.
In other words, a change to the appearance of engrams barely amounts to a change to the loot system and how loot can be acquired.
One could say that the appearance of engrams feed the perception that the loot system was broken.
It is?
by Revenant1988 
, How do I forum?, Monday, September 29, 2014, 12:03 (3949 days ago) @ Kermit
In other words, a change to the appearance of engrams barely amounts to a change to the loot system and how loot can be acquired.
Um.... no it doesn't, it's a big change. You go from the possibility of getting a purple engram and it could be ANYTHING from the lowest tier, to the highest tier to it now being only high tier gear or materials- that is a huge change, and it just made them that more valuable. It may not do diddly squat to the frequency at which you get them, but at least NOW you KNOW you're getting something legendary, at the minimum.
One could say that the appearance of engrams feed the perception that the loot system was broken.
No, it was broken. Cody's suggestion (the one that is being implemented) is a good one.
I'm more of an asshole and suggested that they just make ALL engrams a single color so folks have no idea until it's decoded :P
I get that you're wanting people to lay off Bungie a bit, but the fact that the loot system is being tweaked\changed\overhauled (whatever word an individual wants to use) clearly indicates that something was not working as intended.
It is?
by rliebherr , St. Louis, Missouri, Monday, September 29, 2014, 12:14 (3949 days ago) @ Revenant1988
In other words, a change to the appearance of engrams barely amounts to a change to the loot system and how loot can be acquired.
Um.... no it doesn't, it's a big change. You go from the possibility of getting a purple engram and it could be ANYTHING from the lowest tier, to the highest tier to it now being only high tier gear or materials- that is a huge change, and it just made them that more valuable. It may not do diddly squat to the frequency at which you get them, but at least NOW you KNOW you're getting something legendary, at the minimum.
I think what he's saying is the legendary engrams will always decrypt to legendary or higher; however, they will probably be dropping less. So, the overall chance of getting a legendary drop won't change.
One could say that the appearance of engrams feed the perception that the loot system was broken.
No, it was broken. Cody's suggestion (the one that is being implemented) is a good one.
I agree with Kermit. I don't think the core mechanic is broken. I think the chance of a legendary or exotic dropping is about right. What Bungie is correcting is the "bait and switch" of engrams. The metaphor between a purple engram and a purple item is apparent. I'm not sure why they thought it should decrpyt to other rarities. That was a bad decision. I'm happy to see it implemented.
In other words, a change to the appearance of engrams barely amounts to a change to the loot system and how loot can be acquired.
Um.... no it doesn't, it's a big change. You go from the possibility of getting a purple engram and it could be ANYTHING from the lowest tier, to the highest tier to it now being only high tier gear or materials- that is a huge change, and it just made them that more valuable. It may not do diddly squat to the frequency at which you get them, but at least NOW you KNOW you're getting something legendary, at the minimum.
The fact that it doesn't change the frequency means that it doesn't change the possibility, and therefore, the loot system hasn't changed. The loot is still the same old loot. Engrams are of unknown value until you decode them. Now you have a better idea of what their value is, but that has and had little impact on anybody's behavior in the game. It wasn't like you could trade them.
One could say that the appearance of engrams feed the perception that the loot system was broken.
No, it was broken.
Arguable, which I guess is why we're here. Sigh. The loot is still the loot. People's perceptions were they weren't getting what they deserved. They're getting nothing better now, but they know it sooner.
I get that you're wanting people to lay off Bungie a bit,
What else am I wanting today, Carnac? Bingo! A not fudge sundae would be nice!
but the fact that the loot system is being tweaked\changed\overhauled (whatever word an individual wants to use) clearly indicates that something was not working as intended.
If you call the color of engrams a significant factor in the loot system, then I concede that point.
I agree
These are big changes. The blue turning to greens was a big issue.
"Daily Heroics, Weekly Heroics, and Vanguard: Tiger Playlist activities will include Rare and Legendary Engrams in addition to their existing rewards"
That's going to be nice as well and more chances for a purple drop, and if I can get my rares to turn I to purple half as much as it turns to a green now, I will be rolling in shards for my raid gear cause if it isn't exotic I'm most likely going to break it down.
These are big changes. The blue turning to greens was a big issue.
"Daily Heroics, Weekly Heroics, and Vanguard: Tiger Playlist activities will include Rare and Legendary Engrams in addition to their existing rewards"
That's going to be nice as well and more chances for a purple drop, and if I can get my rares to turn I to purple half as much as it turns to a green now, I will be rolling in shards for my raid gear cause if it isn't exotic I'm most likely going to break it down.
True enough. That's an actual change to the frequency.
Loot system isn't as broken as you think.
Why are people still hating on the Cave? Do people still get enjoyment out of this?
I'm sticking to my guns that high level people are just salty that early-20 people found a faster way to get loot that you can do with your eyes closed.
Loot system isn't as broken as you think.
by Anton P. Nym (aka Steve) , London, Ontario, Canada, Monday, September 29, 2014, 11:34 (3949 days ago) @ Monochron
But it's not... it's not faster, nor is it more effective; that was the point of the article. (And I can't imagine how it's more fun than playing the game. Loot Cave sounds monumentally boring to me.)
-- Steve bought all but one of his Legendary armour pieces with Vanguard Marks earned from Strikes, and his Exotic piece was bought from Xur.
Loot system isn't as broken as you think.
by Blackt1g3r , Login is from an untrusted domain in MN, Monday, September 29, 2014, 11:41 (3949 days ago) @ Anton P. Nym (aka Steve)
The loot cave leveled me up from 20-24 in very quick time. After that though, I was stuck until I could do the Queen's Kill Order missions and got my vanguard rep up. So it got me leveled up pretty quickly but then I just hit the plateau again.
Loot system isn't as broken as you think.
But it's not... it's not faster, nor is it more effective; that was the point of the article. (And I can't imagine how it's more fun than playing the game. Loot Cave sounds monumentally boring to me.)
-- Steve bought all but one of his Legendary armour pieces with Vanguard Marks earned from Strikes, and his Exotic piece was bought from Xur.
This is kind of my point. You earned your Vanguard rank and marks, which takes much longer to do than the Cave does. I got enough armor and legendary weapons at the Cave in 2-3 days of only playing for a couple hours.
Whether or not it is more fun is up to the individual. Personally I don't enjoy the bounties and strikes all that much. That's just me. If anyone I knew IRL had the game to play with me, that might be different.
Loot system isn't as broken as you think.
by Kermit , Raleigh, NC, Monday, September 29, 2014, 12:41 (3949 days ago) @ Monochron
If anyone I knew IRL had the game to play with me, that might be different.
Yeah. IMO, it goes from "This is fun" to "OMG, that was fun!" with friends.
More as a reminder for me to read 'em...
by Anton P. Nym (aka Steve) , London, Ontario, Canada, Monday, September 29, 2014, 12:30 (3949 days ago) @ Anton P. Nym (aka Steve)
... but Gamasutra has a list of articles posted on Destiny's loot system and the perception of grinding. (Among other worthy topics; the Destiny stuff's at the bottom.)
-- Steve's posting this to share, and so that he can find it again when he has time to really sit down and read all those articles.
Loot system isn't as broken as you think.
by Kermit , Raleigh, NC, Monday, September 29, 2014, 11:59 (3949 days ago) @ Monochron
edited by Kermit, Monday, September 29, 2014, 12:03
Why are people still hating on the Cave? Do people still get enjoyment out of this?
I'm sticking to my guns that high level people are just salty that early-20 people found a faster way to get loot that you can do with your eyes closed.
Bah. My existence disproves that hypothesis. I got to 20 the day before the big loot cave controversy hit DBO, and I stayed at 20 for a while. I just hit 23 yesterday.
My theory used to be that some people, when they were kids, must have, upon finding their Christmas toys hidden in the back of a closet in November, taken them out and played with them BECAUSE THEY COULD.
That's a flawed analogy, though, because at least impatient kids did get their toys earlier.
Loot system isn't as broken as you think.
so, did you go over to their house and dance in the closet? :)
Loot system isn't as broken as you think.
by Kermit , Raleigh, NC, Monday, September 29, 2014, 12:02 (3949 days ago) @ Schedonnardus
so, did you go over to their house and dance in the closet? :)
Nah, but admittedly, I probably would have been the nerdy kid with glasses who scolded them for doing it wrong. :)
Loot system isn't as broken as you think.
by Korny , Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Monday, September 29, 2014, 12:07 (3949 days ago) @ Monochron
I'm sticking to my guns that high level people are just salty that early-20 people found a faster way to get loot that you can do with your eyes closed.
Probably. Though I've never been annoyed by it, and I hit 20 the day after launch. I've even helped some low-level friends at the cave.
People will say that the cave wasn't really effective, or that you had to do it for a long time to get anything good, but that's a load of molyneux. Friends got to level 10 in record time, got tons of glimmer, and higher-level peeps were drowning in blue engrams in under an hour. You simply can't deny the fact that kills-per-minute factor heavily in the loot drop system, and the cave had a guaranteed flow of enemies... The fact that this was directly addressed and changed by Bungie should be proof enough that there was a discrepancy between Cavers and Grinders...
But people like to romanticise their view of how the game should be played, and that's fine, but those people sure do their best to make their opinion the loudest...
Loot system isn't as broken as you think.
by Ragashingo , Official DBO Cryptarch, Monday, September 29, 2014, 12:43 (3949 days ago) @ Korny
But people like to romanticise their view of how the game should be played, and that's fine, but those people sure do their best to make their opinion the loudest...
That seems to apply pretty well to both sides of this debate. :)
Posted without comment:
by Anton P. Nym (aka Steve) , London, Ontario, Canada, Monday, September 29, 2014, 13:22 (3949 days ago) @ Kermit
Polygon discusses the latest next-gen game experience: Loot Cave Simulator.
-- Steve'll now go back to his job IRL, which of course is nothing like grinding. (Now where are those TPS report cover sheets...?)