Damage Mechanics (Destiny)
Bungie might not want to call it an MMO (in spite of the fact it will feature: discrete level enemies, player levelling, skill trees, item drops and upgrades, a persistent multiplayer world, instanced encounters and player class levels), but reading between the lines it's not too hard to get an idea for how certain aspects of Destiny's gameplay will work.
But there's also a whole lot that we don't know, some of which is quite fundamental to the experience of an FPS game. Bungie's reticience to discuss gameplay mechanics that they haven't formally announced is starting to seem a little unfair: they are after all dangling the carrot of beta access to all who pre-order the game, and so by not discussing how these mechanics will work it can be argued that they are — to a degree — exploiting player interest to drive sales in a game which may not actually appeal quite as much in its true form.
The Halo series under Bungie's tenure was renowned for its innovative weapon gameplay. Prior to Halo, it was customary for FPS games to provide players with a progression of weapons which once discovered superceded previously collected guns: you start with a pistol, but once you get the shotgun you have no need to use the pistol unless you run out of shotgun ammo, and the same once you find a machinegun and so on. Rather with Halo, the first weapon you pick up was the legendary magnum pistol, which remained incredibly useful throughout the game. Almost every weapon excelled in certain situations, whilst remaining weaker in others.
This asymmetric balance meant that in any given situation you could always scavenge a weapon and still expect to be able to do okay, rather than being outgunned to the degree that you couldn't progress. The overall effect was one where a skillful player could make good use of a given weapon to dispatch enemies quickly, but less skilled players could still progress, albeit perhaps not so cleanly.
One way in which FPS games prevent weapons from being too powerful is to introduce an element of randomness in exactly where any given fired shot might end up. This is frequently referred to as the ‘cone of fire’, since the loci between the tip of the gun barrel and all possible impact locations approximately describes a cone. The diameter of the cone is frequently variable based on factors such as whether the player is moving, jumping, stationary or ducking (and, if the game supports it, lying prone on the floor).
In addition to the size of the cone, how bullets are distributed across the hit area massively affects the ‘feel’ of a weapon. In some games (notably the original Planetside) bullets are randomly distributed anywhere within the cone of fire. This is actually pretty unrealistic, as in reality (assuming some level of skill with firearms) one would expect more shots to be closer to the centre of the target circle, with something approximating a Normal Distribution. In gameplay terms this means that the probability of a shot missing by a dramatic amount is increasingly unlikely, and that most shots will be within a relatively narrow distance of on target.
The way that these different kinds of cones of fire would appear is illustrated (crudely) below:
![[image]](http://snap.kapowaz.net/cof_normal.png)
Normally distributed cone of fire
![[image]](http://snap.kapowaz.net/cof_random.png)
Randomly distributed cone of fire
In Planetside, the cone of fire was intentionally designed to be entirely random so as to support the game's player levelling mechanics: if a player invested in levelling up weapon accuracy, the cone became narrower and so his or her shots were more likely to be on target (even if they were still randomly just as likely to be at the very edge of the cone as right in the centre). This gameplay decision was undoubtedly made in an attempt to reduce the impact of player skill on what was essentially a competitive multiplayer game: with a Normal Distribution, the best players would have a very significant impact in battles, whereas a fully random cone ‘levels the playing field’ somewhat, reducing the advantage of being an accurate marksman to within the bounds of the cone of fire for all players.
How does this relate to Destiny? Well, for one thing we still don't know how the damage mechanics will work. We know that the enemies players encounter will be graded by level, which suggests that their healthpool will vary according to this level. This would fit well with a progression system where players are expected to gradually acquire better weapons which (presumably) would do increasing amounts of damage. This would mean that eventually a player would acquire weapons that trivialise early enemies in much the same way that eventually a World of Warcraft player can kill enemies that once took 20-30 seconds to kill in a single weapon hit once they outgear that content.
What we don't know, however, is just how much player skill will factor into the gunplay. Weapon damage is only one attribute that can be dialled up or down, and it is likely Bungie will want to provide other ways of differentiating the weapons players acquire throughout the game. Will accuracy be another? If so, will weapons use a normally distributed cone of fire, or a completely random one? The decision here will have a substantial impact on how gunplay feels in Destiny: one will allow players to take advantage of innate skill, whereas the other perhaps fits more logically within the (relatively) random number generated-aspect of MMO games in general.
It is unfortunate that Bungie feels unwilling to discuss this. With the beta around six months away, it seems unlikely that no decision has been made on this yet, which raises questions as to exactly why Bungie doesn't want to talk about it. Are they worried it will scare away players who enjoyed the more skill-based gunplay in the original Halo games (a legitimate concern, I suspect)? Or are they unsure of the decision they've taken thus far and aren't willing to discuss it in case they change their mind (also legitimate, although I see no reason why transparency wouldn't be a good thing here)?
Let me be clear: I raise this not because I am impatient but because it troubles me that Bungie continues to be evasive when asked about these (amongst other) gameplay mechanics. It raises questions of just how confident they are in their own game design that they would not expose it to outside scrutiny. But that scrutiny is a good thing: it is far better to discuss it now, than wait until the beta drops and only then for players to discover it's not to their taste or as enjoyable as they had hoped. Why not channel the energy and enthusiasm of the fanbase, whilst it's still there?
Damage Mechanics
by Ragashingo 
, Official DBO Cryptarch, Tuesday, December 17, 2013, 06:37 (4001 days ago) @ kapowaz
I think wanting more info is fine. I too want more info. I think it's another thing to question whether not telling us everything now is a sign that Bungie may not be confident in their gameplay. As you said, they have quite a long time to go before launch or even the beta. All they need are a couple of days, or maybe a big gameplay blowout week to explain things too us. There's plenty of time left for them to do that. Also I somewhat disagree that we need to know everything by the beta. It's almost like you're treating the beta as the release date. A large point of the beta is to be a demo where players can learn if they like Destiny before spending money on it. It's not nearly such a big deal if we don't know everything before the beta since practically all of us will have free access to it. I think your point there would be stronger if there were no free large scale demo and we instead had to go into paying for Destiny with no idea how it worked. But we don't!
I highly doubt Bungie will let us go even into the beta without info on Destiny's core mechanics, but even if they did we will certainly know how everything works by the time they ask us for our money. I think Bungie's silence is the same as it always has been, and it does not raise the questions of whether they are worried about their gameplay. It's kinda like questioning whether Apple is worried that the iPhone 6 will be a failure because it will (likely) be released in June but they haven't even so much as confirmed that they're even making another phone. Not talking about new products until their day of introduction is Apple's standard operating procedure and in no way a sign that things have gone wrong or that they're worried. In the same way stringing us along from one glob of info to the next is the way Bungie does thing and has for at least a decade. If anything, they've given us a lot more info a lot further out than they ever did with Halo.
Ultimately, do you think we'll make it to the beta without knowing how Destiny's core gameplay works, or do you just want to know now instead of a bit later?
Damage Mechanics
I think wanting more info is fine. I too want more info. I think it's another thing to question whether not telling us everything now is a sign that Bungie may not be confident in their gameplay.
Simple question, then: what reason have they for being so reluctant to discuss something so integral to how Destiny will play? It's a first person shooter and they don't want to tell us how damage works. Doesn't that strike you as odd?
I highly doubt Bungie will let us go even into the beta without info on Destiny's core mechanics, but even if they did we will certainly know how everything works by the time they ask us for our money.
Preorders are asking us for our money (even if you have the freedom to cancel, it's still ultimately a tentative commitment to buy).
Not talking about new products until their day of introduction is Apple's standard operating procedure and in no way a sign that things have gone wrong or that they're worried.
True, but it's also a measure of arrogance: iOS 7 was not a universal success and Apple is already starting to backtrack on various decisions they made. Would the product have been better if they'd not decided to wait until they'd already committed to these decisions before sharing them with developers? I'd say the answer is unequivocally yes.
Ultimately, do you think we'll make it to the beta without knowing how Destiny's core gameplay works, or do you just want to know now instead of a bit later?
I'm concerned that Bungie feels it's okay to not talk about certain elements of gameplay until the beta is in peoples’ hands, yes. As I keep saying, this is not about impatience. It's about the trajectory and commitment to what may prove to be sub-optimal design decisions.
Damage Mechanics
by Ragashingo , Official DBO Cryptarch, Tuesday, December 17, 2013, 09:30 (4000 days ago) @ kapowaz
I think wanting more info is fine. I too want more info. I think it's another thing to question whether not telling us everything now is a sign that Bungie may not be confident in their gameplay.
Simple question, then: what reason have they for being so reluctant to discuss something so integral to how Destiny will play? It's a first person shooter and they don't want to tell us how damage works. Doesn't that strike you as odd?
I think you see reluctance where none exists. An information release timetable, sure, but reluctance? I say they do want to tell us how damage works, they just don't want to tell us right now. One is bring worried about core game design, the other is sticking to their historically successful marketing strategy.
How do you contrast your impression of reluctance with Bungie saying that both they and their gameplay testers are having a blast playing Destiny? And how do you reconcile it with Bungie's decade long string of successful shooters?
At some point either they are lying about it being good and you don't trust them to make a good game, or they are on a planned information release schedule and will reveal everything you want them too in their own time, like they've always done.
I highly doubt Bungie will let us go even into the beta without info on Destiny's core mechanics, but even if they did we will certainly know how everything works by the time they ask us for our money.
Preorders are asking us for our money (even if you have the freedom to cancel, it's still ultimately a tentative commitment to buy).
So tentative that you still have your $60. I did not place a preorder until the announcement of the beta and did not consider it until after the big E3 showing. Until then it wasn't very clear what Destiny would be. Now it is. I think the rest of the details will come long before they are willing to take your money and even significantly before the beta.
Not talking about new products until their day of introduction is Apple's standard operating procedure and in no way a sign that things have gone wrong or that they're worried.
True, but it's also a measure of arrogance: iOS 7 was not a universal success and Apple is already starting to backtrack on various decisions they made. Would the product have been better if they'd not decided to wait until they'd already committed to these decisions before sharing them with developers? I'd say the answer is unequivocally yes.
And yet despite its arrogance Apple is only one of the most successful businesses ever, of all time. And a large part of what they do is their very structured method of releasing information and building excitement. Is a small amount of it arrogance? Sure, why not? But the vast majority can only be attributed to an incredibly smart, well planned and run decade plus long pr strategy.
The same can and should be said about the way Bungie does things.
Ultimately, do you think we'll make it to the beta without knowing how Destiny's core gameplay works, or do you just want to know now instead of a bit later?
I'm concerned that Bungie feels it's okay to not talk about certain elements of gameplay until the beta is in peoples’ hands, yes. As I keep saying, this is not about impatience. It's about the trajectory and commitment to what may prove to be sub-optimal design decisions.
But do you believe that will continue all the way to the beta? I don't. I see them releasing new info about gameplay on a steady basis. They've talked about weapon ammo and map control, they've talked about focuses and lasting decisions. They've talked about weapon skill trees. Just recently they talked some about armor and health giving specific examples how class abilities would affect your durability.
Bungie is not being silent on gameplay or story like Apple is completely mute on future products. They are giving us info and will continue to do so. I don't see you so much as being impatient (though that is likely mixed in a bit) as I see you looking for reasons to indirectly claim that Destiny's core gameplay will be fundamentally flawed unless they change their way of doing things and tell us more right now.
Damage Mechanics
I think you see reluctance where none exists. An information release timetable, sure, but reluctance? I say they do want to tell us how damage works, they just don't want to tell us right now.
You did read Deej's comments in the most recent weekly update, right? Why even address the question if only to be evasive?
How do you contrast your impression of reluctance with Bungie saying that both they and their gameplay testers are having a blast playing Destiny? And how do you reconcile it with Bungie's decade long string of successful shooters?
Easily: you're talking about subjective enjoyment. I'm asking about objective mechanics, which inform player tastes. They're not mutually exclusive.
And yet despite its arrogance Apple is only one of the most successful businesses ever, of all time.
Past success does not guarantee future success.
The same can and should be said about the way Bungie does things.
Past success does not guarantee future success. ;-)
But do you believe that will continue all the way to the beta? I don't. I see them releasing new info about gameplay on a steady basis. They've talked about weapon ammo and map control, they've talked about focuses and lasting decisions. They've talked about weapon skill trees. Just recently they talked some about armor and health giving specific examples how class abilities would affect your durability.
They've talked about thiese things, but the overall picture still seems muddy. Perhaps that'll change in the coming months. Maybe feedback like mine might spur them to approach it differently? That's my hope.
Bungie is not being silent on gameplay or story like Apple is completely mute on future products. They are giving us info and will continue to do so. I don't see you so much as being impatient (though that is likely mixed in a bit) as I see you looking for reasons to indirectly claim that Destiny's core gameplay will be fundamentally flawed unless they change their way of doing things and tell us more right now.
I'm not looking for reasons to claim anything: I simply haven't got enough evidence upon which to make such claims. But that door swings both ways - it's hard to be honestly excited about a game which Bungie won't tell us about. Right now I feel like my enthusiasm has nearly dried up, but that's secondary to this nagging feeling that Bungie is being bizarrely tight-lipped about fundamental game mechanics which really ought to be front and centre to their promotion of a new game franchise.
Damage Mechanics
by Ragashingo , Official DBO Cryptarch, Tuesday, December 17, 2013, 10:42 (4000 days ago) @ kapowaz
I think you see reluctance where none exists. An information release timetable, sure, but reluctance? I say they do want to tell us how damage works, they just don't want to tell us right now.
You did read Deej's comments in the most recent weekly update, right? Why even address the question if only to be evasive?
How do you contrast your impression of reluctance with Bungie saying that both they and their gameplay testers are having a blast playing Destiny? And how do you reconcile it with Bungie's decade long string of successful shooters?
Easily: you're talking about subjective enjoyment. I'm asking about objective mechanics, which inform player tastes. They're not mutually exclusive.
Does this mean you are claiming that the people we hear about enjoying Destiny are doing so despite bad objective mechanics? I would think they're having fun because the game, objective mechanics and all, is good. Again, I think you need to decide whether you trust what you've been told.
Past success does not guarantee future success. ;-)
You can chant that if you want, but the reason I'm here is because I am betting that the company behind a decade of the best shooters ever made plus several other of my favorite games will make yet another great game. We can do smiley face winks at each other all day, but I see it as a rather black and white choice.
But do you believe that will continue all the way to the beta? I don't. I see them releasing new info about gameplay on a steady basis. They've talked about weapon ammo and map control, they've talked about focuses and lasting decisions. They've talked about weapon skill trees. Just recently they talked some about armor and health giving specific examples how class abilities would affect your durability.
They've talked about thiese things, but the overall picture still seems muddy. Perhaps that'll change in the coming months. Maybe feedback like mine might spur them to approach it differently? That's my hope.
There's certainly nothing wrong with wanting more info sooner! I just think you are in the wrong when you stray into attributing a lack of info to a developer not having confidence in their product when that lack of info is much more easily demonstrated to be their way keeping their community's attention. In this case what they did in the past (slowly release info) IS exactly what they are doing now.
If you could show some change in Bungie's behavior, show that they are being more tight lipped this time around, then that would be something. I think it's the opposite though. I think we're getting more info at a faster pace than we got for any of the Halo games.
Bungie is not being silent on gameplay or story like Apple is completely mute on future products. They are giving us info and will continue to do so. I don't see you so much as being impatient (though that is likely mixed in a bit) as I see you looking for reasons to indirectly claim that Destiny's core gameplay will be fundamentally flawed unless they change their way of doing things and tell us more right now.
I'm not looking for reasons to claim anything: I simply haven't got enough evidence upon which to make such claims. But that door swings both ways - it's hard to be honestly excited about a game which Bungie won't tell us about. Right now I feel like my enthusiasm has nearly dried up, but that's secondary to this nagging feeling that Bungie is being bizarrely tight-lipped about fundamental game mechanics which really ought to be front and centre to their promotion of a new game franchise.
First, Bungie is telling you about it. Just not on your timetable. The word impatient comes to mind. ;)
Second, I don't share your lack of excitement. I've been promised a massively multiplayer shooter in a giant detailed world by the creators of Halo. How can I not be excited?!
Damage Mechanics
I'm so bored of this tedious Fisking. Once again the same old trope emerges: thou shalt not question the infallibility of Bungie.
Here's the crux of it: somebody asked for clarification about damage mechanics and rather than address it, Deej wrote a patronising non-answer, presumably under the impression it was funny (it wasn't, it was condescending and smart alec-esque).
I'm trying to draw attention - civilly - to this, and hopefully coax out some more sensible exchange. But it's seemingly impossible because as seems typical the sycophants on this forum see it as an attack on Bungie and so try to discredit the arguments instead of fostering a more open approach from Bungie.
I'm fed up of it, so I guess I'm out.
Damage Mechanics
by Cody Miller 
, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Tuesday, December 17, 2013, 11:27 (4000 days ago) @ kapowaz
I'm so bored of this tedious Fisking. Once again the same old trope emerges: thou shalt not question the infallibility of Bungie.
Here's the crux of it: somebody asked for clarification about damage mechanics and rather than address it, Deej wrote a patronising non-answer, presumably under the impression it was funny (it wasn't, it was condescending and smart alec-esque).
Man up. You think that's bad? The webmaster spoiled everything ever for me. He ruined me.
http://halo.bungie.net/inside/letters.aspx?letter=10993 (4th question)
My how times have changed! I'm no longer naive and carefree. So the next time you think I'm trolling, blame the guy in the monkey suit.
Haha!
by Ragashingo , Official DBO Cryptarch, Tuesday, December 17, 2013, 13:20 (4000 days ago) @ Cody Miller
I'm so bored of this tedious Fisking. Once again the same old trope emerges: thou shalt not question the infallibility of Bungie.
Here's the crux of it: somebody asked for clarification about damage mechanics and rather than address it, Deej wrote a patronising non-answer, presumably under the impression it was funny (it wasn't, it was condescending and smart alec-esque).
Man up. You think that's bad? The webmaster spoiled everything ever for me. He ruined me.http://halo.bungie.net/inside/letters.aspx?letter=10993 (4th question)
My how times have changed! I'm no longer naive and carefree. So the next time you think I'm trolling, blame the guy in the monkey suit.
It's all so clear now! If only I had a Delorean I could fix you by going Back To The Futurrrrre! :p
I don't know what you're expecting
by MrPadraig08 , Steel City, Tuesday, December 17, 2013, 11:49 (4000 days ago) @ kapowaz
I'm so bored of this tedious Fisking. Once again the same old trope emerges: thou shalt not question the infallibility of Bungie.
Here's the crux of it: somebody asked for clarification about damage mechanics and rather than address it, Deej wrote a patronising non-answer, presumably under the impression it was funny (it wasn't, it was condescending and smart alec-esque).
For a game very nearly 8 months out, I don't imagine we'll hear anything concrete until at least the 6 month mark. Other than art, gun ideas, and 2 for sure vehicles, we know nothing about mechanics or anything really. They'll tell when they are good and ready.
I'm not condoning or condemning, but before we were getting news for a game with no release date. Then it was hard to get a grasp on how long til information became relevant to an experience we were even in scope to understand. If I'm not playing the game in the next 3-4 months, I don't think I even want to be bothered with the details. Fiction stuff, yes. Art assets, oh sure. Vehicles, eh maybe, might still be a bit to far out.
I can understand them wanting to stick by what they say and not have to weasel out of a statement later because things changed. The best way to do that is say nothing at all.
Damage Mechanics
by Leviathan , Hotel Zanzibar, Tuesday, December 17, 2013, 12:06 (4000 days ago) @ kapowaz
I'm so bored of this tedious Fisking. Once again the same old trope emerges: thou shalt not question the infallibility of Bungie.
It's funny how your perspective can change how something appears, because I've felt the HBO and DBO forums have actually been quite negative as of late. I often have to take breaks from these forums because I don't want to come here to read lists and lists of complaints regarding some of my favorite series' and developers. Even if that's a subjective mood talking, I rarely see anything close to an "infallibility of Bungie". One of the guys who you're discussing with created a site called "Halo Reach Is Not Canon"....that's got to say something for the range of people who stop by here, right?
Here's the crux of it: somebody asked for clarification about damage mechanics and rather than address it, Deej wrote a patronising non-answer, presumably under the impression it was funny (it wasn't, it was condescending and smart alec-esque).
I don't know what you're exactly referring to, but Bungie has consistently used their Mailsacks or Updates in a roast-like approach to questions that are either off the table at the moment, or are just bizarre/funny. It's not everybody's cup of tea, obviously, but I think you're leaving out some context that includes over a decade of answers in that style. I mean, their taglines either threaten to kick my ass or make fun of my mom on a regular basis...
I'm trying to draw attention - civilly - to this, and hopefully coax out some more sensible exchange. But it's seemingly impossible because as seems typical the sycophants on this forum see it as an attack on Bungie and so try to discredit the arguments instead of fostering a more open approach from Bungie.
The possible problem, as I see it, seems to be that not everyone wants that open of an approach, or even expects it. Like I stated in my other post in this thread, I love being teased and kept in the dark regarding something I'm excited for. You apparently don't, which is cool, but you've continually persisted in trying to make Bungie change their style to your wants for quite some time, which is probably why folks here have bounced back an equally persistent defense at you.
And that's probably why you feel like some folks are "sycophants" when I've felt like the same forum can often leap to the torches over a little detail Bungie mentioned in passing.
I'm fed up of it, so I guess I'm out.
:/ Hope you change your mind someday. I'm sure some of these same folks would love to pick apart gun mechanics with you after they've played the game.
Damage Mechanics
by Ragashingo , Official DBO Cryptarch, Tuesday, December 17, 2013, 13:06 (4000 days ago) @ kapowaz
I'm so bored of this tedious Fisking. Once again the same old trope emerges: thou shalt not question the infallibility of Bungie.
Here's the crux of it: somebody asked for clarification about damage mechanics and rather than address it, Deej wrote a patronising non-answer, presumably under the impression it was funny (it wasn't, it was condescending and smart alec-esque).I'm trying to draw attention - civilly - to this, and hopefully coax out some more sensible exchange. But it's seemingly impossible because as seems typical the sycophants on this forum see it as an attack on Bungie and so try to discredit the arguments instead of fostering a more open approach from Bungie.
I'm fed up of it, so I guess I'm out.
My fundamental problem with your approach isn't the attack on Bungie, it's attributing the lack of information as the implication of a negative. In your first post alone you have Bungie exploiting players by offering a major preorder bonus and you have them worried enough about their game decisions that they are intentionally hiding them from us. You then go on to characterize their information release schedule as one of some measure of arrogance.
Why not be positive? Why is the existence of what is said to be a fuller, more complete beta of the entire product (as opposed to the multiplayer-only betas of Halo 3 and Reach) seen as a negative? Why not look at Bungie's lack of transparency as confidence that they think their mechanics are working well? Why attribute a repeat of their slow, time-release marketing campaigns to arrogance instead seeing it as following an approach that worked well in the past?
The worst part is now you're abandoning ship when I think a lot of people agree with you, at least in part. I've never liked Bungie's slow release of information. I've put up with it, and I think it has gotten better over the years, but as I've said in the past, I was very frustrated with them, especially back in the Halo 2 and Halo 3 days. In your example of the latest weekly update, for instance, I would much rather Deej's answer to the question about the damage system to have been something more straightforward like, "while we of course have a good idea how damage will work in Destiny, many things are still in flux and we would prefer to address them more fully later as they get more pinned down" instead of joking about it. You saw the joke more negatively than I did, of course, but we both agree we would like to see different, more open approaches.
And then of course, there's also the possibility that you are right in all of this. We talked back and forth about past performances, well not all of Bungie's past is rosy. Halo 2 was something of an internal train wreck that was well hidden from us, the paying customers, until much later. Rendering systems had to be abandoned. Gameplay features, like melee combos, were demonstrated and never made it. Interesting sounding segments, like those with the Flood Juggernauts punching a hole through Covenant lines for the Chief, were cut. The entire ending of the game was scrapped in favor of a boss sequence because they ran out of time! All through development we got teased with <redacted>'s and long, vague descriptions. Nobody said a word about it all nearly falling apart. To this day I still feel a bit lied to.
Maybe that's happening again? Maybe Destiny's E3 demo was two parts smoke and one part mirrors. Maybe they have no idea how they are going to reconcile power usage with weapon usage with leveling up while keeping it fun for new players. Maybe the bullet spread will be tuned almost entirely to the new, unskilled players leaving pros frustrated. These are all things that I think many of us have considered. You could wait with us, discuss with us, argue with us and sometimes have to agree to, disagree with us.
Or, you could call us uncivil sycophants and abandon the thread. That works too. :)
Damage Mechanics
by Cody Miller , Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Tuesday, December 17, 2013, 10:26 (4000 days ago) @ kapowaz
I think wanting more info is fine. I too want more info. I think it's another thing to question whether not telling us everything now is a sign that Bungie may not be confident in their gameplay.
Simple question, then: what reason have they for being so reluctant to discuss something so integral to how Destiny will play? It's a first person shooter and they don't want to tell us how damage works. Doesn't that strike you as odd?
No. Remind me what other FPS games talked about firing cones and stuff like that prerelease, because I can think of zero.
Damage Mechanics
I think wanting more info is fine. I too want more info. I think it's another thing to question whether not telling us everything now is a sign that Bungie may not be confident in their gameplay.
Simple question, then: what reason have they for being so reluctant to discuss something so integral to how Destiny will play? It's a first person shooter and they don't want to tell us how damage works. Doesn't that strike you as odd?
No. Remind me what other FPS games talked about firing cones and stuff like that prerelease, because I can think of zero.
I've been pushing for more information on Destiny for a while (the GameInformer stuff has left me mostly sated for now), but I agree with Cody that demanding the details of bullet spread right now is unreasonable, as was your previous demand for specific armor values and other things related to minmaxing.
Damage Mechanics
by Leviathan , Hotel Zanzibar, Tuesday, December 17, 2013, 10:00 (4000 days ago) @ Ragashingo
A large point of the beta is to be a demo where players can learn if they like Destiny before spending money on it. It's not nearly such a big deal if we don't know everything before the beta since practically all of us will have free access to it. I think your point there would be stronger if there were no free large scale demo and we instead had to go into paying for Destiny with no idea how it worked. But we don't!
Yeah, in contrast to Kapowaz's approach, I've actually already started avoiding gameplay and story info, heh! I want to go into the Beta somewhat-dark (I have a hard time not loving art direction discussion and pretty concept art/screenshots!) and form my own impressions on a game that seems to be blending genres in a way I've yet to experience.
I'm a big fan of the gestalten perspective. A few details about a game, in isolation, can describe or inform a reaction that ends up being completely different than the kind of experience you get when you play the full form of the game... so why worry so much about them if I'm not the one making the thing?
But I'm also the kind of person who yells and turns off the TV if it starts playing a trailer for a movie I want to see, or avoids friends who've seen it before me!
Damage Mechanics
by Kermit , Raleigh, NC, Wednesday, December 18, 2013, 13:37 (3999 days ago) @ Leviathan
But I'm also the kind of person who yells and turns off the TV if it starts playing a trailer for a movie I want to see, or avoids friends who've seen it before me!
You're my kind of person, Levi.
Damage Mechanics
by electricpirate , Tuesday, December 17, 2013, 09:35 (4000 days ago) @ kapowaz
What we don't know, however, is just how much player skill will factor into the gunplay. Weapon damage is only one attribute that can be dialled up or down, and it is likely Bungie will want to provide other ways of differentiating the weapons players acquire throughout the game. Will accuracy be another? If so, will weapons use a normally distributed cone of fire, or a completely random one? The decision here will have a substantial impact on how gunplay feels in Destiny: one will allow players to take advantage of innate skill, whereas the other perhaps fits more logically within the (relatively) random number generated-aspect of MMO games in general.
It is unfortunate that Bungie feels unwilling to discuss this. With the beta around six months away, it seems unlikely that no decision has been made on this yet, which raises questions as to exactly why Bungie doesn't want to talk about it. Are they worried it will scare away players who enjoyed the more skill-based gunplay in the original Halo games (a legitimate concern, I suspect)? Or are they unsure of the decision they've taken thus far and aren't willing to discuss it in case they change their mind (also legitimate, although I see no reason why transparency wouldn't be a good thing here)?
This is the kind of thing that gets iterated on countless times. I would imagine the specifics of how spread cones, weapon ROF, reload systems, how enemies take damage, how aim assist works, how bloom works, how ADS effects things, and how weapons change as they upgrade are being constantly changed. Not only that, as other variables have changed around them, I would bet differrent systems have disapered and reappeared. That's just the iterative process of game design. I'd be fairly sure that they have some general parameters, and a general feel now, but many specific mechanics are in flux.
Let me be clear: I raise this not because I am impatient but because it troubles me that Bungie continues to be evasive when asked about these (amongst other) gameplay mechanics. It raises questions of just how confident they are in their own game design that they would not expose it to outside scrutiny. But that scrutiny is a good thing: it is far better to discuss it now, than wait until the beta drops and only then for players to discover it's not to their taste or as enjoyable as they had hoped. Why not channel the energy and enthusiasm of the fanbase, whilst it's still there?
Probably because low level mechanical discussion of a game in constant flux isn't going to get them anywhere? Beyond the simple fact that talking about a changing feature is a difficult thing to communicate, how much does the community really get out of low level discussion at this stage?
Let's take an example, Let's make some assumptions about automatic weapon spread. Let's assumee they have a normal spread, but that spread can reduced with certain upgrades to the gun or the character. That leaves out some hugely important details.
1. Does that spread change from Bloom, does it have a maximum range?
2. How does Aim assist effect that?
3. How does netcode change things?
4. Is it hitscan, is there bullet drop?
5. Are there critical bonusses?
And many more. Describing abstract systems through words in a precise way is incredibly difficult. Even worse, we could manage to get all that details in text, but it won't give us a good sense of how we'll respond to them. Bloom is a system like this, where on paper it should appeal to the most competitive games as it adds a layer of complexity and requires a ton of skill in managing it. The competitive response was hugely negative though. In large part because it slowed down the end of fights, making multikills harder. That kind of emergent effect from design changes is almost impossible to appreciate without having the entire system in front of you. Given that none of us has actually played Destiny, describing mechanics like this in the abstract guarantees that deep mechanical descriptions will get muddled and lost, since we don't have a full system to observe and experience.
I think you are focusing on the wrong thing here, but getting at a very real issue. Your entire post is ostensibly asking to hear more about mechanics, but every one of your points revolves around the balance between player skill and avatar power. That's the question we need some clarification on! Other than some platitudes, Bungie hasn't given us much on this subject *at all.* We know that there's this content designed for high level characters, will that be impossible like in WoW or Diablo, or will we be seeing level 1 runs like in Dark souls? This is the kind of subject they can and should be talking about in a more concrete way at this point, as it's foundational to Destiny's success.
Damage Mechanics
by Xenos , Shores of Time, Tuesday, December 17, 2013, 09:46 (4000 days ago) @ kapowaz
What FPS games usually talk about this stuff ahead of time? This is a strange idea to me since most FPS games just show you gameplay and say "See this is how it plays." I have never seen (obviously not meaning it doesn't exist) a company say "here is how our gunplay mechanics work!" For the most part we can extrapolate some of your questions from the gameplay trailers we already have. For example skill will absolutely play a major role in gameplay as we can see the Warlock in the E3 gameplay trailer killing anything less than a captain with a single headshot. And that was with a non-exotic weapon, with a character who was not a very high level. We also get to see a non-exotic pulse rifle in action, and an exotic HMG in action.
As far as getting more granular than that, Bungie rarely has. Go back and look at Halo 1 before it came out. No discussion at all. The discussions since then have all been about the adjustments they have made to weapons you love or showing how weapons fit into the already known lineup. I really am not expecting them to talk much about how the guns actually play until a couple of months before the beta at the earliest. Yes input from us is useful, but that doesn't mean they have to involve us in every step of the process. Would we appreciate it? Sure. But they've also been making First Person Shooters for 22 years. And in addition to all that, I think this forum alone, as well as the rest of the Internet, proves that giving details can prove troublesome without the whole picture. If I were making a game I would not want people to hear about the gunplay until it was at least close to the time to play it. I could read the stats of a gun and say "man that gun sounds AWFUL" and then use it and love it or vice versa (which happens to me a lot in the Borderlands games). I'm not saying I would mind them giving me the information BUT it doesn't cause me to worry that they haven't.
Damage Mechanics
What FPS games usually talk about this stuff ahead of time?
How many MMO FPS games do you know of with upgradeable weapons and armour? The closest analogue I can think of is Borderlands, and if you compare how Gearbox approaches this stuff I think you'll find they're massively more transparent about gameplay mechanics and development process than Bungie.
Damage Mechanics
by Xenos , Shores of Time, Tuesday, December 17, 2013, 10:12 (4000 days ago) @ kapowaz
Inside the Box is an awesome series, one I also enjoy reading. However it also came out AFTER the game came out. It's true that Gearbox has been pretty open about their games' mechanics, but having followed Borderlands 2 myself most of the mechanics were not talked about in depth until 1-3 months before the game was released. And that was for a sequel, not even for the first game in a franchise.
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Inside the Box is an awesome series, one I also enjoy reading. However it also came out AFTER the game came out. It's true that Gearbox has been pretty open about their games' mechanics, but having followed Borderlands 2 myself most of the mechanics were not talked about in depth until 1-3 months before the game was released. And that was for a sequel, not even for the first game in a franchise.
It's clearly better to talk about this stuff after the game is out. Cause, you know, people will have played it and seen the mechanics in action.
Damage Mechanics
by stabbim , Des Moines, IA, USA, Tuesday, December 17, 2013, 12:02 (4000 days ago) @ kapowaz
If I had to take a guess, based on Bungie's insistence that it will "feel" like a Bungie shooter and the (admittedly vague) assertions that player skill will still factor in, I'd say it's very likely to be normal distribution. I also think it looks that way from the brief glimpses of gunplay shown in trailers and such. Just what I think, but it's not a completely uninformed opinion. I guess up until you asked, I'd just assumed the firing mechanics would be very similar to Halo's. I sure hope they are, anyway - Planetside's solution sounds like it would be frustrating for someone accustomed to other FPS games. I get why they did it that way, I just don't think I'd personally enjoy it in an FPS. I often find myself getting angry with any game where I can lose due to simple randomness. Difficulty is great, but when it comes simply from the whims of fate it can feel cheap.
I know that really doesn't address your concerns about Bungie's openness at all, but I think the question about firing mechanics is interesting, and it's all I have to offer at the moment. Truth is, I have no idea why they haven't specified this already, but on the other hand I didn't really expect them to - I hadn't even considered it until you brought it up.
From memory, Bungie has used:
- Pinpoint accuracy,
- Random Distributions,
- Normal Distributions,
- Donut distributions (not joking),
- Recoil-dependent distributions.
... all in the same game.
So asking which one they are using is like asking if their game is going to use shotguns or assault rifles.
Well... which is it? :p
by Ragashingo , Official DBO Cryptarch, Tuesday, December 17, 2013, 13:22 (4000 days ago) @ RC
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On firing cones...
From memory, Bungie has used:
- Pinpoint accuracy,
- Random Distributions,
- Normal Distributions,
- Donut distributions (not joking),
- Recoil-dependent distributions.
... all in the same game.
So asking which one they are using is like asking if their game is going to use shotguns or assault rifles.
Is this Reach? Can you match weapon names to these (especially the doughnut distribution)? Thanks!
On firing cones...
by uberfoop , Seattle-ish, Tuesday, December 17, 2013, 23:16 (4000 days ago) @ Hoovaloov
Is this Reach? Can you match weapon names to these (especially the doughnut distribution)? Thanks!
My guess is that RC is referring to Halo 2. That game goes nuts with this stuff. Donut shotgun, SMG with Doom Chaingun bloom behaviour, etc...
On firing cones...
by ShadowOfTheVoid , South Carolina, Tuesday, December 17, 2013, 23:46 (4000 days ago) @ Hoovaloov
From memory, Bungie has used:
- Pinpoint accuracy,
- Random Distributions,
- Normal Distributions,
- Donut distributions (not joking),
- Recoil-dependent distributions.
... all in the same game.
So asking which one they are using is like asking if their game is going to use shotguns or assault rifles.
Is this Reach? Can you match weapon names to these (especially the doughnut distribution)? Thanks!
It's likely Halo 2 as it was to my knowledge the only one that had donut spread.
Sniper weapons have always used pinpoint accuracy (i.e., no spread), with the sniper rifle in Halo 1 being an exception when it's fired unzoomed. The Halo 1 plasma pistol also has zero spread.
The shotgun in Halo 3 is definitely a randomly-distributed weapon, but I'm not certain which ones in Halo 2 are.
The AR, plasma rifle, and shotgun in Halo 1 had normal distributions, but I'm again unsure which weapon(s) in Halo 2 had it.
The Halo 2 shotgun had donut spread. The best way to see this is to load up Beaver Creek and fire at the same spot in the side of one of the bases from about 15 or 20 meters away (bullet hole decals show up really well on the bases). You'll notice a big empty spot in the middle of the distribution.
The Halo 2 SMG had both recoil-dependent and donut distribution. By using short-controlled bursts (quick taps of the trigger that fire 1-3 rounds) you can draw a ring on any surface where bullet holes show up well, and by holding down the trigger you get prodigious recoil that even a mighty Spartan II cannot control it.
On firing cones...
Wow. That was a very informative post. I honestly never knew Bungie had used donut distributions, but it all makes sense now that I know.
From memory, Bungie has used:
- Pinpoint accuracy,
- Random Distributions,
- Normal Distributions,
- Donut distributions (not joking),
- Recoil-dependent distributions.
... all in the same game.
So asking which one they are using is like asking if their game is going to use shotguns or assault rifles.
Is this Reach? Can you match weapon names to these (especially the doughnut distribution)? Thanks!
Halo 2.
Again, this is from memory so I may be wrong on a couple:
- Sniper is pinpoint.
- Plasma Rifle is random.
- BR is normal distribution.
- Shotgun is donut distribution (hole in the middle, randomised elsewhere)
- SMGs are recoil-dependent (hold trigger longer = higher spread)
The fire pattern of the Shotgun made it almost useless at anything but point blank. Which I guess was the point after the beastly one in H1. But it made the Sword all the more awesome for close range work.
So yeah, Bungie aren't really the type to choose one 'paradigm' for all the weapons in their game. They'll use every tool they can get their hands on to make the overall experience fun and 'balanced.'
Damage Mechanics
by Kermit , Raleigh, NC, Wednesday, December 18, 2013, 09:06 (3999 days ago) @ kapowaz
I just don't get it, kapowaz.
The important thing is how it plays, no? We've got a beta coming.
What benefit would be gained by Bungie talking about aspects of the game as if they are fact with people who haven't played the game--especially since whatever is true today might not be true tomorrow? They have a small army of testers to talk with. Why would we know more than they do?
And I won't even go into the statements you make about what their silence portends.
I just don't get it, kapowaz.
The important thing is how it plays, no? We've got a beta coming.
What benefit would be gained by Bungie talking about aspects of the game as if they are fact with people who haven't played the game--especially since whatever is true today might not be true tomorrow? They have a small army of testers to talk with. Why would we know more than they do?
And I won't even go into the statements you make about what their silence portends.
I'm with you, Kerm.
It's like hearing about a painter's latest masterpiece, and hollering about why they haven't released the molecular breakdown of the materials they're using.
Forests and trees, constants and variables.
Damage Mechanics
by Kermit , Raleigh, NC, Wednesday, December 18, 2013, 12:37 (3999 days ago) @ SonofMacPhisto
I just don't get it, kapowaz.
The important thing is how it plays, no? We've got a beta coming.
What benefit would be gained by Bungie talking about aspects of the game as if they are fact with people who haven't played the game--especially since whatever is true today might not be true tomorrow? They have a small army of testers to talk with. Why would we know more than they do?
And I won't even go into the statements you make about what their silence portends.
I'm with you, Kerm.It's like hearing about a painter's latest masterpiece, and hollering about why they haven't released the molecular breakdown of the materials they're using.
Forests and trees, constants and variables.
I'm all about appreciating the community, fans, paying customers that allow them to do what they do, etc., and the two-way relationship that requires. Yet, in the artistic realm there's much to be said for doing the work that you want to do, and there's lots to be said for not doing the work only because others want you to. The formula goes like this: make something that is meaningful to you [substitute "fun" or some other positive quality] and other people will like it, too. Yes, there's economics to consider, but gosh, Bungie has earned some artistic freedom. From my perspective, they're earned my trust. Call me a sycophant. Actually, don't. That's offensive. Screw that noise.
I'm just Sick of Pants
by MrPadraig08 , Steel City, Wednesday, December 18, 2013, 12:55 (3999 days ago) @ Kermit
Call me a sycophant. Actually, don't. That's offensive. Screw that noise.
but you can call what you will.
But don't call me late for dinner... is that where we're goi
by Ragashingo , Official DBO Cryptarch, Wednesday, December 18, 2013, 12:56 (3999 days ago) @ MrPadraig08
ng? *NM*
Damage Mechanics
by Ibeechu , Portland, OR, Friday, December 20, 2013, 00:27 (3998 days ago) @ kapowaz
Kapowaz and I and some others were talking about all this on IRC a few days ago, and it's generally the feeling I've been having with Bungie not just for the last year or so, but ever since pre-Halo 2.
I think kapowaz got too caught up in the details (albeit trying to prove his point). But the reason Bungie's secrecy bugs me, and I think the reason it bugs kapowaz, is this:
1. Bungie constantly hypes their own product, and tells us how great it's going to be and how we should trust them just because they're Bungie.
2. They refuse to give details about WHY it's great.[1]
These two things do not mesh. It may have worked for me during Halo 2- and Halo 3-era, where they still had a lot of street cred, and I really could trust them. But ODST and Reach came along and, while they're fantastic games, they did not live up to Bungie's own hype. I'm not impatient. I'm just annoyed. And, it's the reason I've not been active around here. I just don't have a reason to care. Yeah, I've seen the Destiny footage. It looks really neat. And I know that I'm constantly told I should care. But then they dodge giving me reasons to.[2]
Again, it's not necessarily a lack of information compared to any other game. Just that their giving out this amount while at the same time yelling at us to get hyped its gonna be the best is exhausting at best and condescending at worst. "You want concrete reasons why it's gonna be great? What, our word isn't good enough? Do you also demand that Santa bring all your gifts early, you impatient jerk?"
I also get that a bunch of you love information being handed out in this way. The question I have is, "Why?" I genuinely can not understand it. I get the allure of peeking behind the shadows. And I get the primal excitement of jumping on the hype train. But these two things contradict each other. I just. I just don't get it.
The best thing I've seen about Destiny so far? The recent Jason Jones interview. He was matter-of-fact. He answered questions. More to the point, he answered questions while maintaining their secrecy. Even more to the point, he was able to do that without being "srsly the game is the best, guys"[3]. And most to the point, he treated the audience with respect enough to not beat around the bush. Incidentally, as much as I really, really dislike Halo 4, I loved 343's approach to their updates. They were never overly confident (and were transparent on how nervous they were to be taking on the franchise), and they handed out information in a steady way; never obfuscating for the sake of it.
God. Why this bums me out so much is because they are Bungie. I love them and they've had an extremely significant impact on my life. And contrary to the tone of this post, it's still one of my life-long goals to work there as an animator (eh deej hehe jk about all this stuff bff forever). But that's exactly why it bugs me. I don't want to not have confidence in Bungie's ability. I still want to put them on a pedestal. But after having been given information in this way for the last 10 years, and having the last 5 of those years produce sub-typical-Bungie results, it's wearing really thin.
Cliffs/tl;dr:
- Bungie itself is the biggest source of Destiny hype
- At the same time, they're keeping specifics closely guarded
- When asked why we should be as excited as they are, they tell us to calm down
[1] I'm not talking about minutia like fire cones. All I want is broad strokes stuff. So far I could tell you one thing about what Destiny actually is. It's an MMOFPS. Neat. That's intriguing. But I've also known that for a year. I really can not give any other deep reason to separate this game from, say, Halo. But to add to the frustration, they keep saying it's definitely not an MMOFPS. Well. I'm stumped, guys. Dozens of weekly updates and several vidocs and I have no fucking idea what this game is. But I guess that's my fault for being so impatient and not trusting you guys 100%. After all, according to you, the people who are trying to sell me the game, it is revolutionary. Ok. No more questions then.
[2] "ChorrizoTapatio How does the damage system work in Destiny?
It's all really complicated. Essentially, you're gonna see these dudes, and you're gonna want to, you know, do some damage to them. Maybe they're extra-terrestrial squatters who have claimed your lost homeworlds as their own. Maybe it's just that guy from that other private group who thinks he's always right. At your fingertips, you'll have an inventory bristling with weapons, not to mention all the powers of creation. You're gonna use that stuff to attack those dudes, and they will become really damaged.
Sorry. I should really ask an Engineer to answer this question. Ask me again sometime."
No, wait. One more question. Why even pretend to give an answer if you're just going to joke about it? Why have any pretense of a mailbag at all if it's going to be stuff like this?
[3] "I don't think anybody in this world has ever done anything worthwhile without being their own worst critic. Especially if you talk about any creative enterprise. If you somehow believe that what you're doing is the greatest thing ever all the time, it's absolutely not gonna be the greatest thing ever."
-Jason Jones, in the Making of Halo 2
This idea of creative humility blew my 13-year-old mind. And it's the antithesis to Bungie's current self-propelled invisible hype-machine.
Damage Mechanics
by Xenos , Shores of Time, Friday, December 20, 2013, 09:00 (3997 days ago) @ Ibeechu
Thanks for posting this Ibeechu, I understand this a lot more. I personally don't have a problem with it mostly because it's literally how they've done it since Halo 1 and I'm accustomed to it, but I understand how that would not be ideal for everyone. I'm happy with the amount of hype and information, mostly because I have enjoyed literally every Bungie game I've played (and most of them are among my favorite games of all time) so I am almost completely sure it'll be fun. Getting trailers and little pieces of information are just bonuses and give me hints about the world which is what I am most interested in since that's the thing that'll be completely different than the Bungie games for the past 10 years.
I also happen to know that this entire mindset is strange and very much the mindset of a fanboy.
I'm with you there. I do understand why some people could be frustrated with how Bungie is releasing information. I just don't happen to be one of them.
But I am a fanboy, admittedly. I would buy Destiny sight-unseen just because it's got the Bungie logo on the cover. I have never NOT enjoyed a Bungie game (I thought ODST and Reach were the best Halo games, barring the original).
I just don't really see the problem, I guess, from my perspective. We know basically what Destiny is, even if they want to avoid the term just because of the negative associations with it. It's a shared world shooter. Who cares exactly how damage works (at this particular moment in time)? We know it's a FPS. We know that is Bungie's bread and butter. They excel at making great FPS games. What else is there to know, at this point, really? I get that yes, there's lots of things that will be new and different, and maybe things you won't like in particular. But ultimately I think we can assume if you like the gameplay, the shooting, of Halo, you'll probably enjoy this. I understand that you (not you in particular, Xenos) need to know more before you make a decision to purchase. The game is still what, almost a year out? If you don't know by the day it's released what you need to know, then by all means, go ahead and complain. But at this point, I just don't really get it. There's still plenty of time for all that to be revealed.
I guess it all boils down to this: for me personally, Bungie still has all the street cred it needs to do basically whatever the hell they want, and I'll still purchase on day one.
Damage Mechanics
by stabbim , Des Moines, IA, USA, Friday, December 20, 2013, 13:50 (3997 days ago) @ Ibeechu
Thanks. I think you put this a little more... smoothly than others have. I'm not even sure which camp I'm in TBH. Part of me likes doing this dance with Bungie every time, but part of me would really just like something more straightforward. I guess what I mean is I'm not too worried about it, but I can see where you're coming from, and you're not wrong.
Totally agree about Jason's interview though. And it's funny, as you were saying that I was thinking "yeah, he's always been like that" and that quote from the Halo 2 making of DVD popped into my head. Then I got to your footnotes and saw it there. :)
I guess if anything is giving me some comfort regarding Destiny's relative greatness, it's that Bungie is on their own now, and no longer making Halo games simply because they have to make Halo games. They're making Destiny because it's what they wanted to make next, which is how all their previous great works came about. That's hardly a guarantee, but it's something.
I'd feel a lot better with a vid of an Exo doing The Robot.
by Malagate , Sea of Tranquility, Friday, December 20, 2013, 15:25 (3997 days ago) @ stabbim
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How about Legion doing the robot?
by SonofMacPhisto , Wednesday, December 25, 2013, 00:58 (3993 days ago) @ Malagate
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xcYQGcLR6E
You're welcome.
Damage Mechanics
Thank you for saying what so many of us have been thinking in such eloquent words.
I agree with everything you wrote. To be fair to Bungie, if Destiny is truly as revolutionary as they say it is, it may be one of those things that's impossible to "get" until you've played it for yourself. It may be that they don't know how to describe it to us. In that case, sharing some hard gameplay mechanics might help, but they are reluctant to do that, so I wouldn't hold my breath.
But I totally agree with you that it's been almost a year since Destiny was officially announced and I still have no idea what it actually is. It's an MMOFPS that's definitely not an MMO, apparently, and that's confusing. Even though it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, we're meant to think that it's a swan or something. Everything Bungie has released about this game has been intriguing, but woefully uninformative, abd that only adds to the confusion. The initial announcement hinted at great things, but all we actually got to see was concept art and hyperbole from Bungie employees. The E3 trailer showcased some promising features, like public events and item loot, but we didn't actually learn anything about how those features will work. They keep hinting at all of these great things without actually showing us anything of substance. One can only listen to DeeJ and his cohorts talk about how revolutionary and orgasmic this game will be for so long before one realizes that they have absolutely no reason to draw that conclusion for themselves based on the information we have.
Bungie has my interest. Now they just need to earn my trust, and the only way that's going to happen is if they share some concrete information about the fucking game. It doesn't need to be anything super-technical like cones of fire. If they would just open up a little more about basic gameplay mechanics, that would be sufficient.