
Tom Bissell -> Andor (Off-Topic)
by Kermit , Raleigh, NC, Thursday, May 15, 2025, 09:39 (46 days ago)
Today I learned that Tom Bissell, author of Extra Lives (a good book I'm certain some of you have read), wrote the first draft of the last three episodes of Andor, which are fantastic. Great discussion here, including some interesting comments made about writing for video games.
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I’ve totally missed the boat on this show. The critical reception is through the roof and word-of-mouth from all my favorite Star Wars nerds is equally adulatory. The last big Star Wars phenomenon I got into was The Mandalorian, which was excellent, but I kind of lost track of it after the second season and haven’t circled back to get caught up again.
I did watch the Boba Fett show they made, which was not great (and was not so much a Boba Fett show as it was The Mandalorian Season 2.5), but at this point, I haven’t been subscribed to Disney+ for years so I’ve honestly lost track of what they’re even doing.
Call me a kid at heart, but I still prefer the stuff they were doing in animation, namely The Clone Wars & Rebels. (The Bad Batch looks interesting, but again, I haven’t been subscribed to Disney+ for years.)
I’ve totally missed the boat on this show. The critical reception is through the roof and word-of-mouth from all my favorite Star Wars nerds is equally adulatory. The last big Star Wars phenomenon I got into was The Mandalorian, which was excellent, but I kind of lost track of it after the second season and haven’t circled back to get caught up again.
I did watch the Boba Fett show they made, which was not great (and was not so much a Boba Fett show as it was The Mandalorian Season 2.5), but at this point, I haven’t been subscribed to Disney+ for years so I’ve honestly lost track of what they’re even doing.
Call me a kid at heart, but I still prefer the stuff they were doing in animation, namely The Clone Wars & Rebels. (The Bad Batch looks interesting, but again, I haven’t been subscribed to Disney+ for years.)
I was 13 when Star Wars came out. Loved it more than anything. Same with Empire. By the time Return had come out, I was starting to see (and not like) the juvenile aspect of Star Wars. After Lucas became a father in 1981, I think he started thinking of Star Wars as primarily children's entertainment, and I've not cared for much after the original trilogy. Didn't like the prequels. Thought The Force Awakens was good, but just a retread of the first movie. Rogue One had a grittier, more realistic tone, and I liked it more. The Mandalorian was a pretty good space western, but the absolute best episode was when Bill Burr went off on their fascist asses (I'm foreshadowing my last paragraph). I couldn't make it through five minutes of their other shows until Andor, I thought they were so bad. I've never seen anything animated. It's not the animation, but the content. I loved the first season of Arcane, for instance, but I've never seen anything to indicate that the animated Star Wars stuff approaches that level. It is for kids, right? No offense to you, but I'm just not interested. For one thing, it holds no sentimental value for me at all.
Andor is something else entirely. It's not for anyone who wants or expects their Star Wars to appeal to their inner kid. The worst thing about it is that it's Star Wars, and has all the associations of Star Wars. It has much more in common with The Sopranos, The Wire, Game of Thrones, or especially John LeCarre novels. It's a savvy exploration of authoritarianism informed by a knowledge of history, human behavior and relationships, and how rebellions are born. If someone wants lightsabers, it's not their show, but it is S-tier television, straight up.

Tom Bissell -> Andor
by Coaxkez, Wednesday, May 21, 2025, 06:51 (40 days ago) @ Kermit
edited by Coaxkez, Wednesday, May 21, 2025, 06:54
I've never seen anything animated. It's not the animation, but the content. I loved the first season of Arcane, for instance, but I've never seen anything to indicate that the animated Star Wars stuff approaches that level. It is for kids, right? No offense to you, but I'm just not interested. For one thing, it holds no sentimental value for me at all.
Rebels is definitely for kids. They do a lot of "all-ages" stories that have something for everybody, but there are also a fair few outright slapstick episodes that are clearly written to appeal to ten year olds. I have a young son, so that's my entry point into the show, but it does also appeal to me on an "inner child" sort of level.
I get your position on the whole juvenile aspect of Star Wars. Maybe growing up with the entire original trilogy as a monolith alters the way I perceive it. For me, that's just part of what it is. You either like it or you don't. It's cool if it's not your bag.
The Clone Wars kind of grows with its audience. The first season is full of silliness like Jar Jar Binks being mistaken for a Jedi and then having to play the part in order to get them out of a jam (yes, really), so it feels a lot more like a kid's show early on, but then by season six, they were doing entire three-episode arcs about banking deregulation. I wouldn't say it ever rises above the level of YA, but it's a very eclectic blend of stories. Again, to me, that's just part of what it is. Part of the charm of Star Wars is the fact that it's all over the place tonally. George Lucas is the kind of guy who puts slapstick comedy with battle droids in the same movie as lingering close-ups of a dude getting burned alive.
Based on what you've said, though, I can guarantee that neither show is for you.
Andor is something else entirely. It's not for anyone who wants or expects their Star Wars to appeal to their inner kid. The worst thing about it is that it's Star Wars, and has all the associations of Star Wars. It has much more in common with The Sopranos, The Wire, Game of Thrones, or especially John LeCarre novels. It's a savvy exploration of authoritarianism informed by a knowledge of history, human behavior and relationships, and how rebellions are born. If someone wants lightsabers, it's not their show, but it is S-tier television, straight up.
"The worst thing about it is that it's Star Wars," LOL, I've heard this sentiment from certain critics as well. That it's an incredible show "hiding" inside of the Star Wars universe.
I think there is plenty of room within the franchise for different perspectives. There are plenty of fans like me enjoy the animated content, but there should absolutely be projects geared toward fans who are looking for something more substantial and adult-oriented. I'm all in favor of that. There is plenty of room under the tent. Not everything needs to be whiz-bang action-adventure all the time, and I do agree that the Bill Burr episode was the best part of The Mandalorian, so I think Andor would appeal to me as well.

Tom Bissell -> Andor
by Kermit , Raleigh, NC, Wednesday, May 21, 2025, 09:07 (40 days ago) @ Coaxkez
I've never seen anything animated. It's not the animation, but the content. I loved the first season of Arcane, for instance, but I've never seen anything to indicate that the animated Star Wars stuff approaches that level. It is for kids, right? No offense to you, but I'm just not interested. For one thing, it holds no sentimental value for me at all.
Rebels is definitely for kids. They do a lot of "all-ages" stories that have something for everybody, but there are also a fair few outright slapstick episodes that are clearly written to appeal to ten year olds. I have a young son, so that's my entry point into the show, but it does also appeal to me on an "inner child" sort of level.I get your position on the whole juvenile aspect of Star Wars. Maybe growing up with the entire original trilogy as a monolith alters the way I perceive it. For me, that's just part of what it is. You either like it or you don't. It's cool if it's not your bag.
The Clone Wars kind of grows with its audience. The first season is full of silliness like Jar Jar Binks being mistaken for a Jedi and then having to play the part in order to get them out of a jam (yes, really), so it feels a lot more like a kid's show early on, but then by season six, they were doing entire three-episode arcs about banking deregulation. I wouldn't say it ever rises above the level of YA, but it's a very eclectic blend of stories. Again, to me, that's just part of what it is. Part of the charm of Star Wars is the fact that it's all over the place tonally. George Lucas is the kind of guy who puts slapstick comedy with battle droids in the same movie as lingering close-ups of a dude getting burned alive.
Based on what you've said, though, I can guarantee that neither show is for you.
Andor is something else entirely. It's not for anyone who wants or expects their Star Wars to appeal to their inner kid. The worst thing about it is that it's Star Wars, and has all the associations of Star Wars. It has much more in common with The Sopranos, The Wire, Game of Thrones, or especially John LeCarre novels. It's a savvy exploration of authoritarianism informed by a knowledge of history, human behavior and relationships, and how rebellions are born. If someone wants lightsabers, it's not their show, but it is S-tier television, straight up.
"The worst thing about it is that it's Star Wars," LOL, I've heard this sentiment from certain critics as well. That it's an incredible show "hiding" inside of the Star Wars universe.I think there is plenty of room within the franchise for different perspectives. There are plenty of fans like me enjoy the animated content, but there should absolutely be projects geared toward fans who are looking for something more substantial and adult-oriented. I'm all in favor of that. There is plenty of room under the tent. Not everything needs to be whiz-bang action-adventure all the time, and I do agree that the Bill Burr episode was the best part of The Mandalorian, so I think Andor would appeal to me as well.
Totally agree with your last paragraph. I sounded anti-kid in my comments, but it's because Andor deserves an audience made up of people who either don't or no longer like Star Wars, and I'm willing to bet that, for many, their dismissiveness has to do with thinking of it as kid stuff. I do enjoy things made for kids. I will never stop loving the original trilogy in part because I was a kid when I was first exposed to it. I also think there's plenty of room under the Star Wars tent (so does the creator of Andor). Andor gave me something I didn't know could exist: Star Wars taken seriously. Not trying to be a snob, but I'm 61. Time is fleeting. I stopped watching Marvel content after the first Avengers movie because the time investment involved wasn't worth it to me anymore. My teenage self would be all over it, but I'm not him anymore.

Tom Bissell -> Andor
by ManKitten , The Stugotz is strong in me., Thursday, May 22, 2025, 06:22 (39 days ago) @ Coaxkez
edited by ManKitten, Thursday, May 22, 2025, 06:32
Andor is definitely a "put the kids to bed" kind of show. Nothing gratuitous happens, but there are plenty of point blank blaster shots to the face and season two actually has a rather uncomfortable sexual assault scene.
BUT ASIDE FROM ALL THAT...
Yes, Andor was great. They did a great job introducing us to new characters and developing them well enough to care about. This past weekend I re-watched Rogue One, then ep 4,5 and 6...in one day. For me, Rogue one turned "The Skywalker Saga" into a "Rebels vs Empire"...with a couple Skywalkers in it.
Also, isn't it funny how Star Wars and Halo are basically the same story? Outer rim human planets struggle for supplies while a central militarized government tries to over regulate them?
They are just told from different points of view. I mean, Darth Vader and Master Chief are the same person. Luckily, in Halo, aliens invaded to distract MC from killing rebel scum...I mean insurrectionists.

Tom Bissell -> Andor
by Kermit , Raleigh, NC, Thursday, May 22, 2025, 08:15 (39 days ago) @ ManKitten
Yes, Andor was great. They did a great job introducing us to new characters and developing them well enough to care about. This past weekend I re-watched Rogue One, then ep 4,5 and 6...in one day. For me, Rogue one turned "The Skywalker Saga" into a "Rebels vs Empire"...with a couple Skywalkers in it.
I love the way you put that, and Star Wars is better for it. One of the ways George Lucas ruined his creation was by introducing the idea of midi-chlorians. Until then, the Force was relatively democratic, accessible to anyone with discipline and the right mindset. Midi-chlorians introduced genetics into it, and essentially we're back to the divine right of kings. As a committed anti-monarchist, I say screw that noise.

Tom Bissell -> Andor
by ZackDark , Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Thursday, May 22, 2025, 15:00 (39 days ago) @ Kermit
I love the way you put that, and Star Wars is better for it. One of the ways George Lucas ruined his creation was by introducing the idea of midi-chlorians. Until then, the Force was relatively democratic, accessible to anyone with discipline and the right mindset. Midi-chlorians introduced genetics into it, and essentially we're back to the divine right of kings. As a committed anti-monarchist, I say screw that noise.
Eh. I chose to infer it works like Dust, from His Dark Materials. You can measure it, but how it attaches to someone is "arbitrary".
I love the way you put that, and Star Wars is better for it. One of the ways George Lucas ruined his creation was by introducing the idea of midi-chlorians. Until then, the Force was relatively democratic, accessible to anyone with discipline and the right mindset. Midi-chlorians introduced genetics into it, and essentially we're back to the divine right of kings. As a committed anti-monarchist, I say screw that noise.
Eh. I chose to infer it works like Dust, from His Dark Materials. You can measure it, but how it attaches to someone is "arbitrary".
Not familiar. Midi-chlorians just confused everything. Non-Skywalkers can still use it, but it seems to choose you, not the other way around. I liked it when it was a practice, like Zen Buddhism, that you could pick up.

Tom Bissell -> Andor
by Coaxkez, Friday, May 23, 2025, 08:16 (38 days ago) @ Kermit
edited by Coaxkez, Friday, May 23, 2025, 08:20
For whatever it's worth, Disney has been soft retconning midi-chlorians for a while now. They do still exist and are still portrayed as the intermediary through which sentient life is able to tap into the Force, but there has been a shift toward portraying the Force as something that anyone can train to use even when their "M-count" is very low. They just have to work harder at it. It's like how, in real life, anyone can learn how to run a marathon, but some people have a better aptitude for it.
There is a character in one of the D+ shows who becomes a Padawan in spite of having literally zero Force aptitude whatsoever, not even being able to move a cup, but eventually this character is able to use the Force after mastering self-discipline and the quieting of the mind.
Is that ideal? No. I get that midi-chlorians confuse the issue by virtue of their mere existence, but hey, at least Disney is doing something about that.
For whatever it's worth, Disney has been soft retconning midi-chlorians for a while now. They do still exist and are still portrayed as the intermediary through which sentient life is able to tap into the Force, but there has been a shift toward portraying the Force as something that anyone can train to use even when their "M-count" is very low. They just have to work harder.
Smart move. It gives the universe more narrative freedom. Good for them.

Tom Bissell -> Andor
by ManKitten , The Stugotz is strong in me., Friday, May 23, 2025, 11:29 (38 days ago) @ Kermit
For whatever it's worth, Disney has been soft retconning midi-chlorians for a while now. They do still exist and are still portrayed as the intermediary through which sentient life is able to tap into the Force, but there has been a shift toward portraying the Force as something that anyone can train to use even when their "M-count" is very low. They just have to work harder.
Smart move. It gives the universe more narrative freedom. Good for them.
I am one with the force and the force is with me.
I am one with the force and the force is with me.
I am one with the force and the force is with me.
I am one with the force and the force is with me.
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