https://www.marathonthegame.com/

Did MBO change recently? I can't figure it out.

Edit: Found it https://forums.bungie.org/story/

You beat me by 20 minutes. Found the trailer, and I thought it was fake at first. Exciting!

strange signals hint at mysterious artifacts, long-dormant ai, and troves of untold riches. you are a runner, venturing into the unknown in a fight for fame… and infamy.

by 2850, clone technology allows a person to reliably shift their consciousness from their ‘born’ body to new, synthetic bodies and back again.

The premise sounds like a clever self-aware metaphor for the game itself: wearing the Marathon IP as a skinsuit to cash in on the Next Big Thing: extraction shooters.

(Edit: the above sounds a bit harsh, I'm sure it will be a fun game that people really enjoy and given Bungie's track record one can be confident it won't be a broken mess like other AAA games)

Credit for not going the 343i route and being slightly ahead of the curve rather than behind it (in a meeting room at 343i right now a PowerPoint slide asks: "BATTLE ROYALE: The Next Big Thing??").

I wonder how Marathon fans receive this. It's so different from the original series I don't think there's a risk of damaging the legacy and they'd be happy with the deluge of references and callbacks, but maybe they were holding out hope for another single-player game with ultra-super-deep lore.

strange signals hint at mysterious artifacts, long-dormant ai, and troves of untold riches. you are a runner, venturing into the unknown in a fight for fame… and infamy.

by 2850, clone technology allows a person to reliably shift their consciousness from their ‘born’ body to new, synthetic bodies and back again.

The premise sounds like a clever self-aware metaphor for the game itself: wearing the Marathon IP as a skinsuit to cash in on the Next Big Thing: extraction shooters.

(Edit: the above sounds a bit harsh, I'm sure it will be a fun game that people really enjoy and given Bungie's track record one can be confident it won't be a broken mess like other AAA games)

Credit for not going the 343i route and being slightly ahead of the curve rather than behind it (in a meeting room at 343i right now a PowerPoint slide asks: "BATTLE ROYALE: The Next Big Thing??").

I wonder how Marathon fans receive this. It's so different from the original series I don't think there's a risk of damaging the legacy and they'd be happy with the deluge of references and callbacks, but maybe they were holding out hope for another single-player game with ultra-super-deep lore.

I genuinely had to look up what an "extraction shooter" is... I'm so behind on current gaming trends.

I never played the original Marathon and all I know of it are the references\call backs\easter eggs that were placed into Halo. That said, I agree that it is nice knowing there is a very low chance that Bungie would mess up the release of this. I know it will play well and be of good quality, which is how I felt about Destiny even though it was hard for me to get into it I can acknowledge it was a well made game. I still have a hard time getting into live-service stuff but maybe Marathon will be different?

I'm sure it will be full of microtransactions and Cody will never play it.

- No text -

strange signals hint at mysterious artifacts, long-dormant ai, and troves of untold riches. you are a runner, venturing into the unknown in a fight for fame… and infamy.

by 2850, clone technology allows a person to reliably shift their consciousness from their ‘born’ body to new, synthetic bodies and back again.

The premise sounds like a clever self-aware metaphor for the game itself: wearing the Marathon IP as a skinsuit to cash in on the Next Big Thing: extraction shooters.

(Edit: the above sounds a bit harsh, I'm sure it will be a fun game that people really enjoy and given Bungie's track record one can be confident it won't be a broken mess like other AAA games)

Credit for not going the 343i route and being slightly ahead of the curve rather than behind it (in a meeting room at 343i right now a PowerPoint slide asks: "BATTLE ROYALE: The Next Big Thing??").

I wonder how Marathon fans receive this. It's so different from the original series I don't think there's a risk of damaging the legacy and they'd be happy with the deluge of references and callbacks, but maybe they were holding out hope for another single-player game with ultra-super-deep lore.

I genuinely had to look up what an "extraction shooter" is... I'm so behind on current gaming trends.

I never played the original Marathon and all I know of it are the references\call backs\easter eggs that were placed into Halo. That said, I agree that it is nice knowing there is a very low chance that Bungie would mess up the release of this. I know it will play well and be of good quality, which is how I felt about Destiny even though it was hard for me to get into it I can acknowledge it was a well made game. I still have a hard time getting into live-service stuff but maybe Marathon will be different?

I'm sure it will be full of microtransactions and Cody will never play it.

What we're likely seeing here is gameplay set within a scenario in the context of the Marathon universe (or perhaps a reboot, or a new instance of the Marathon universe, depending on what one might argue happens after the end of Marathon Infinity). Any plot would likely move incredibly slowly. The game may also be a platform to help establish the world building that could lead into a more narrative focused game after the fact.

*Ahem*

"Become a Runner in Bungie’s new sci-fi PvP extraction shooter. Compete for survival, riches, and renown in a world of evolving, persistent zones, where any run can lead to greatness."

Marathon is currently in development for PlayStation 5, Xbox Series X/S, and PC with full cross play and cross save.

From: https://www.marathonthegame.com/y3vmGPNRxH3RNTqLkq5PFXZy

So. ...ugh. It was nice seeing a Bungie tag next to something that didn't say "Destiny" next to it, but... MAN! If it's PvP only, y'all know there are going to be Micro-Transactions out the wazoo, right?

Eh.

You gotta click the link to count as one.

I'm sure it will be full of microtransactions and Cody will never play it.

Aww how did you know? But I generally also don't have interest these days in PvP only games.

- No text -

I wonder how Marathon fans receive this.

Marathon is a game that just cannot exist in the current gaming landscape. ANY Marathon game would have to be a departure from what the series was. I was hoping for a single player story component however.

The game may also be a platform to help establish the world building that could lead into a more narrative focused game after the fact.

If that's true, I'll eat my hat.

I don't mean this as negatively as it sounds, but I genuinely don't think Bungie (as a company, not as a collection of talented individuals) is interested in that anymore. If they can't milk it with constant season passes and microtransactions, I don't think they're interested.

Which . . . again, as a company, is absolutely the smart play. Why would you make another Halo when Destiny continues to rake in so much money? Why not make another Destiny instead?

I'm torn because . . . like, for the most part, I'm sick of the live service game. I've stopped playing Destiny, Apex, Call of Duty, etc. (Genshin still gets a pass because it's that good). On the other hand, a new Bungie shooter will always, always be compelling, and after the Dark Zone in the Division and playing some DMZ in the new Warzone, extraction shooters are really freaking fun.

I'll begrudgingly keep an eye on this, but, for the first time since the first Halo, a new Bungie game is not an automatic day one buy for me.

Marathon is a game that just cannot exist in the current gaming landscape. ANY Marathon game would have to be a departure from what the series was.

Say more. What makes you think that?

Xbox tweeted a picture of all the announced games that are also coming to Xbox and Marathon is on that list. With Bungie being owned by Sony, that wasn't a given. I know they played lip service when they were acquired, but there's always a risk of that being less than true, so it's nice to see.

What a good looking group 😎 pic.twitter.com/eDZo8vTXtB

— Xbox (@Xbox) May 24, 2023

https://hearoursilence.com/4673c

Edit: okay wow, this is a lot: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1eIlPx83tFa9i01xDW1HQsxNxgjXd8RkZUSjItK4DEUs/edit#heading=h.392g3w474fqx

I'm sure it will be full of microtransactions and Cody will never play it.

Came here for this comment, was not disappoint. Rev out here doing the Lord's work.

The "living world" focus, I think, is going to be the big thing for me. Lovely to see the Marathon IP getting some love again, although I don't disagree with Schooly's skinsuit take.

I can't imagine Bungie have spent all this time honing their seasonal content delivery in Destiny and won't bring a significant portion of that model over to New Marathon. (There are New Coke jokes to be made, and I am here for them).

Seems that without a specific campaign or missions to speak of, the focus will become even more on fireteam-and-community building. I feel like we also have to assume matchmade fireteams for folks who haven't found regulars to run with.

In any case, very excite.

~m

Marathon is a game that just cannot exist in the current gaming landscape. ANY Marathon game would have to be a departure from what the series was.

Say more. What makes you think that?

It's not a knock against the game, it's that its design, sensibilities, and presentation were more appropriate for a time when hardware was limited.

There are zero NPCs, and 99% of the story is conveyed through text terminals. There is no ability to script sequences, and cutscenes are limited to static chapter images. The level design was often… unique and unrefined. You'd be stuck wandering around frequently, with zero hints, waypoints, or reminders on what to do. Some solutions even defied physics (Swimming up from the starting area in M2's Kill your Television for example). With fully 3D engines none of those tricks can surprise you anymore. Secrets were still a thing where finding an ammo cache was satisfying.

I would describe the experience as 'lonely', but not in the sense where you're uncovering and exploring a world.

Not having Marathon on Mac feels weird…

https://hearoursilence.com/4673c

Edit: okay wow, this is a lot: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1eIlPx83tFa9i01xDW1HQsxNxgjXd8RkZUSjItK4DEUs/edit#heading=h.392g3w474fqx

Christmas has arrived for the Marathon Story page!

I'll begrudgingly keep an eye on this, but, for the first time since the first Halo, a new Bungie game is not an automatic day one buy for me.

Hopefully Bungie will give us all Alpha codes so we can try it out HINT HINT. Remember the last time they did that? I raved about Destiny and got hooked!

I genuinely had to look up what an "extraction shooter" is... I'm so behind on current gaming trends.

Same. I intentionally signed off PvP in general years ago so I'm just not in the spaces where I would have picked up on that genre. Speaking of which, I probably won't be playing this one at all which makes me sad.

I’d be down to Alpha or Beta, and I’ve even have played some extraction shooters. I wonder if Bungie will make this brutal and difficult, accessible, or maybe mixes of both. There’s a lot of possibility here with this type of shooter. I’m very curious to see what this will be like. Luckily, my hype is fairly in check at the moment since they didn’t show any gameplay. I’m optimistic for the future, and maybe this will introduce a whole new generation to Marathon Classic and build a love for an awesome trilogy and universe.

But to loop back, yes, Alpha or Beta. 100% that’d be lovely.

Sure, but none of that means you couldn’t make a good modern single player experience with the sensibilities of classic Marathon. The 2016 Prey game exists, and while it’s not a direct comparison, I feel like it’s playing in the same sandbox a bit. Lonely, exploring a seemingly abandoned space station filled with weird aliens trying to kill you, picking through computer terminals trying to piece together what happened.

If anything, I think Marathon is a perfect candidate for a modern reimagining. But as I said, I genuinely don’t think Bungie is interested in making that type of game anymore.

I’d be down to Alpha or Beta, and I’ve even have played some extraction shooters. I wonder if Bungie will make this brutal and difficult, accessible, or maybe mixes of both. There’s a lot of possibility here with this type of shooter.

So yeah, no joke, Bungie has always been really really good I think at not leaving out casual or players who aren't super dedicated when it comes to PvP. If there's anything I have total faith in, it's that they'll find a way for people of all skill levels to enjoy it.

I honestly wonder if people can discover Marathon at this point. I tried to play it again a while back with the xbox ports and it made me physically ill. I think at the size of screen we have these days the kind of motion in the game causes me motion sickness. It's not a particularly tight shooter, so you really have to be enamored by the story in the terminals, at which point, just read Bungie.org, right? I'd love if more people found a love for it, but I think you need nostalgia to get you through the rough edges.

- No text -

I honestly wonder if people can discover Marathon at this point. I tried to play it again a while back with the xbox ports and it made me physically ill. I think at the size of screen we have these days the kind of motion in the game causes me motion sickness. It's not a particularly tight shooter, so you really have to be enamored by the story in the terminals, at which point, just read Bungie.org, right? I'd love if more people found a love for it, but I think you need nostalgia to get you through the rough edges.

Motion sickness was not uncommon with the xbox version. It's not as big a deal with the original for some reason.

You can go to https://alephone.lhowon.org and get them for a modern system. My only gripe is that the original graphics and interface are not default. You need to choose OG graphics, and download a lua script for OG interface. The original experience should be the default IMO. But once you set it up that way it's pretty much exactly how you'd experience it back in the mid 90s.

I can change the platform and settings next time, but my original experience was on a screen that was either 9.5 or maybe 12 inches big. I suspect that has something to do with it.

I can change the platform and settings next time, but my original experience was on a screen that was either 9.5 or maybe 12 inches big. I suspect that has something to do with it.

For me, it was CRT vs LCD.

I replaced my last CRT in 2002. That was the last time I was able to play Marathon without getting violently ill within 10-15 minutes.

I've tried all platforms (Mac/PC/Xbox/iPad), and they all do it. Screen size is irrelevant.

Seems like this will NOT happen with the new game, it's built off a completely different engine.

Time to get my pitchforks out of storage.

I had not heard that. The Xbox version will make almost anyone sick, but I didn't think it was because of the display.

I had not heard that. The Xbox version will make almost anyone sick, but I didn't think it was because of the display.

I can't speak for anyone but me. I was having trouble with Marathon years before the Xbox version came out.

I'll carry you don't worry.

I can change the platform and settings next time, but my original experience was on a screen that was either 9.5 or maybe 12 inches big. I suspect that has something to do with it.

For me, it was CRT vs LCD.

I replaced my last CRT in 2002. That was the last time I was able to play Marathon without getting violently ill within 10-15 minutes.

I've tried all platforms (Mac/PC/Xbox/iPad), and they all do it. Screen size is irrelevant.

Seems like this will NOT happen with the new game, it's built off a completely different engine.

Try it on an OLED. The way it generates and displays images is similar to a CRT, as well as pixel response time.

IIRC, we both have OLED.

IIRC, we both have OLED.

For a desktop, where I’m likely to play it? I can’t speak for Claude, but I don’t have that set up, and I probably won’t anytime soon.

Obviously the most disappointing thing is the lack of a single player story experience. The irony is that the games that are dominating now in terms of sales, like Elden Ring, Horizon Forbidden West, God of War, Pokémon Arceus, Hogwarts Legacy, Resident Evil 4…

These games have single player experiences.

And yet, so many are chasing free to play, live game, or game as service.

The very core of Marathon was the story experience. People are absolutely buying, and valuing, games with a great campaigns. Are we in a time where there's less money in success than service? Where free to play is more lucrative than a normal game? Do successful single player games just not make enough money?

Do think Marathon will become the next CS:GO? Or do you think it's more likely to become Disintegration? Something in between? I certainly trust Bungie to nail the PvP experience for a huge range of skill levels.

But as I've grown older I've lost interest in pure PvP experiences. I'm not 15 anymore, and it's not 1999 with Unreal Tournament dominating. Games provide better immersion through aesthetics today than through challenge. More meaningful. More artistic. I fear Marathon will simply be… a game.

The very core of Marathon was the story experience. People are absolutely buying, and valuing, games with a great campaigns. Are we in a time where there's less money in success than service? Where free to play is more lucrative than a normal game? Do successful single player games just not make enough money?

I think it should be viewed in terms of probabilities and variance.

A single player game from a AAA studio like Bungie is likely to have a high floor in terms of sales but a low ceiling: you launch, sell a bunch of units, collect a bunch of cash, but eventually sales taper off and the world (and your studio) moves on.

A free-to-play live service game is more risky. It will probably flop but maybe... just maybe... you are the next Fortnite.

I don't think Bungie makes this decision, it's probably Sony. I'm sure Bungie is capable of developing a good SP-focused Marathon game but Sony probably figures since Bungie has a ton of experience running a live service for the past decade they're more useful attempting a game like Nu-Marathon.

Do think Marathon will become the next CS:GO? Or do you think it's more likely to become Disintegration? Something in between? I certainly trust Bungie to nail the PvP experience for a huge range of skill levels.

But as I've grown older I've lost interest in pure PvP experiences. I'm not 15 anymore, and it's not 1999 with Unreal Tournament dominating. Games provide better immersion through aesthetics today than through challenge. More meaningful. More artistic. I fear Marathon will simply be… a game.

I think you should be more sanguine. It's PvP but everything about the trailer and vidoc points to character customization being the focus. The PvP experience is just a vehicle for self-expression (which, of course, you're gonna pay for). Not my cup of tea but I'm the guy who invented ULTRA MLG.

It's PvP but everything about the trailer and vidoc points to character customization being the focus.

Right. Because they've totally nailed that in Destiny. How many different currencies will I have to collect to use the skin I've already unlocked?

hashtag butthurt bout it.

I think you should be more sanguine. It's PvP but everything about the trailer and vidoc points to character customization being the focus. The PvP experience is just a vehicle for self-expression (which, of course, you're gonna pay for). Not my cup of tea but I'm the guy who invented ULTRA MLG.

If anything, the learning of the rules and development of your play style and tactics has more self expression in it than picking combinations of cosmetics that are in the game. Just like real life, fashion as self expression has been co-opted by capitalism resulting in expression as consumption rather than creativity.

It's PvP but everything about the trailer and vidoc points to character customization being the focus.

Right. Because they've totally nailed that in Destiny. How many different currencies will I have to collect to use the skin I've already unlocked?

hashtag butthurt bout it.

Things make more sense when you recognize this important fact: the developers of a game like Destiny *hate* you. That the reward system is convoluted and frustrating isn't a regrettable necessity, it's the point. You frustrate them by stubbornly trying to avoid giving them your money and time, so they in turn force you to endure a frustrating reward system. Neo-Marathon will be worse, count on it.

It's PvP but everything about the trailer and vidoc points to character customization being the focus.

Right. Because they've totally nailed that in Destiny. How many different currencies will I have to collect to use the skin I've already unlocked?

hashtag butthurt bout it.

Things make more sense when you recognize this important fact: the developers of a game like Destiny *hate* you. That the reward system is convoluted and frustrating isn't a regrettable necessity, it's the point. You frustrate them by stubbornly trying to avoid giving them your money and time, so they in turn force you to endure a frustrating reward system. Neo-Marathon will be worse, count on it.

Precisely why I now want to play games that love you. That are thrilled you picked it and gave your money and time, and which seek to make every second you choose to spend with it as meaningful and engaging as possible. And that let you walk away and end the experience on a high note when you’ve explored it as much as you want.

If anything, the learning of the rules and development of your play style and tactics has more self expression in it than picking combinations of cosmetics that are in the game. Just like real life, fashion as self expression has been co-opted by capitalism resulting in expression as consumption rather than creativity.

Allowing people to express themselves through play style and tactics doesn't make them nearly as much money as cosmetic items. Not least of all because 90% of people simply don't have the intellectual wattage to think critically about how they play a game.

You're touching on an important point though which is that, in real life and in-game, self expression in itself isn't the point. The point is to communicate status. People don't buy Gucci because Gucci is the one brand that perfectly captures the wearer's innate aesthetic ideal, they buy Gucci because it's high status. I think you'll see something similar in Neo-Marathon which is that, while you will have a huge arsenal of customization options that form the bedrock of the experience and allow you to craft your avatar exactly as you want, what is going to drive people are the set of sale-able items like quirky visors and cat ears that immediately signal "this person bought/earned something" rather than "this person has style."

Precisely why I now want to play games that love you. That are thrilled you picked it and gave your money and time, and which seek to make every second you choose to spend with it as meaningful and engaging as possible. And that let you walk away and end the experience on a high note when you’ve explored it as much as you want.

You should definitely start Tears of the Kingdom.

Obviously the most disappointing thing is the lack of a single player story experience. The irony is that the games that are dominating now in terms of sales, like Elden Ring, Horizon Forbidden West, God of War, Pokémon Arceus, Hogwarts Legacy, Resident Evil 4…

That’s true. But the thing you’re not accounting for is opportunity cost. Making a big single player experience is massively expensive. If it flops, you’re fucked. We’re now in an age where big AAA games are so expensive that they have to be massive hits to be considered successful. Look at Square Enix and Tomb Raider being a disappointment in sakes despite reaching like 8 million copies or something. For every Elden Ring, there’s countless Redfalls or Gollums.

Marathon will also undoubtedly be very expensive to develop, but it only has to capture a fraction of the player base and get them to buy even one or two $15 or $20 skins to be successful.

I mean jesus, look at Destiny. If that wasn’t a live service game, would it even still exist? It was a dogshit campaign experience up until Taken King. If that’s what that game was banking on, it wouldn’t have survived. But being a live game allowed them to continue developing it and make it the success story it is now.

Obviously the most disappointing thing is the lack of a single player story experience. The irony is that the games that are dominating now in terms of sales, like Elden Ring, Horizon Forbidden West, God of War, Pokémon Arceus, Hogwarts Legacy, Resident Evil 4…

That’s true. But the thing you’re not accounting for is opportunity cost. Making a big single player experience is massively expensive. If it flops, you’re fucked. We’re now in an age where big AAA games are so expensive that they have to be massive hits to be considered successful. Look at Square Enix and Tomb Raider being a disappointment in sakes despite reaching like 8 million copies or something.

That was exactly the point of the post. Even though players want these games the money is simply elsewhere. Elden Ring sold 4x as much as Destiny, and twice as much as Halo 3. And yet, the money is in games like Fortnite.

Only Nintendo seems to be doing ok here. And the Switch is decidedly underpowered and not capable of 4K. Coincidence?

Obviously the most disappointing thing is the lack of a single player story experience. The irony is that the games that are dominating now in terms of sales, like Elden Ring, Horizon Forbidden West, God of War, Pokémon Arceus, Hogwarts Legacy, Resident Evil 4…

That’s true. But the thing you’re not accounting for is opportunity cost. Making a big single player experience is massively expensive. If it flops, you’re fucked. We’re now in an age where big AAA games are so expensive that they have to be massive hits to be considered successful. Look at Square Enix and Tomb Raider being a disappointment in sakes despite reaching like 8 million copies or something.

That was exactly the point of the post. Even though players want these games the money is simply elsewhere. Elden Ring sold 4x as much as Destiny, and twice as much as Halo 3. And yet, the money is in games like Fortnite.

The money is also in Elden Ring, though. From Soft isn’t going to be making a battle royale any time soon.

I get what you’re saying, and I agree. I think Bungie slapping the Marathon brand on an extraction shooter fucking sucks, and I think people expecting it’ll be very much more than that with some lore sprinkled over the top are setting themselves up for disappointment.

But I also think people doing nothing but lamenting that trend should also open their eyes. Gaming has literally never been better. Because Elden Ring did get made. Tears of the Kingdom exists. Great single player games are not dying, they’re better than ever.

But I also think people doing nothing but lamenting that trend should also open their eyes. Gaming has literally never been better. Because Elden Ring did get made. Tears of the Kingdom exists. Great single player games are not dying, they’re better than ever.

For now.

I wonder where the future will be. Will AAA be largely service, with indies being most of the games? Will there be an equilibrium with games and service? Or will the pendulum swing one way, and which way?

Seems like all the companies I used to admire are having the worst outcome here, Naughty Dog excepted.

Obviously the most disappointing thing is the lack of a single player story experience. The irony is that the games that are dominating now in terms of sales, like Elden Ring, Horizon Forbidden West, God of War, Pokémon Arceus, Hogwarts Legacy, Resident Evil 4…

These games have single player experiences.

And yet, so many are chasing free to play, live game, or game as service.

The very core of Marathon was the story experience. People are absolutely buying, and valuing, games with a great campaigns. Are we in a time where there's less money in success than service? Where free to play is more lucrative than a normal game? Do successful single player games just not make enough money?

Do think Marathon will become the next CS:GO? Or do you think it's more likely to become Disintegration? Something in between? I certainly trust Bungie to nail the PvP experience for a huge range of skill levels.

But as I've grown older I've lost interest in pure PvP experiences. I'm not 15 anymore, and it's not 1999 with Unreal Tournament dominating. Games provide better immersion through aesthetics today than through challenge. More meaningful. More artistic. I fear Marathon will simply be… a game.

is that Bungie is keeping the "campaign experience" under wraps so that, when revealed, those of us pouting right now snap back to delirious excitement, surprised by joy.

Yeah, not taking bets. I will bet that Bungie will make a game that is polished and innovative in the genre they've decided to work in. Will that innovation serve players of average ability and limited time, players who already feel blocked behind a skill wall when it comes to some endgame activities in their current game? After all these years, will playing Bungie games with friends finally, sadly, become an activity for the hardcore only?

Blizzard scrapped a campaign with Overwatch that they promised. There is no way Bungie will add one that they did not.

Precisely why I now want to play games that love you. That are thrilled you picked it and gave your money and time, and which seek to make every second you choose to spend with it as meaningful and engaging as possible. And that let you walk away and end the experience on a high note when you’ve explored it as much as you want.

You should definitely start Tears of the Kingdom.

Was just about to post the same thing.

Blizzard scrapped a campaign with Overwatch that they promised. There is no way Bungie will add one that they did not.

I said I wouldn't bet on it, but it would be a heckuva way to underpromise at this stage of the reveal.

Blizzard scrapped a campaign with Overwatch that they promised. There is no way Bungie will add one that they did not.

I said I wouldn't bet on it, but it would be a heckuva way to underpromise at this stage of the reveal.

In all the years of Destiny, they have never once underpromised. You’d think if they were going to learn that lesson, the launch of Destiny would have been the thing to learn from. They haven’t yet, so I won’t hold my breath.

You have said the magic words in complaining about live service games, therefore I am compelled to appear and plug Deep Rock Galactic, a game with progression, seasons, and battle passes but in which you pay for only the base game (unless it's still on Game Pass, not sure about that part) and then don't buy anything else.

I never thought I’d see the day when a brand-new installment in the Marathon series, especially one supported by Bungie’s best designers and a AAA budget along with the backing of a major publisher, would turn me off so quickly and completely. I like the premise and think there could definitely be some interesting story material here. I’m sure the core gameplay itself will be a ton of fun. I think the art style is… intriguing… okay, I’m not gonna lie, virtually nothing about it said “Marathon” to me upon first viewing, but I certainly don’t hate it! They’re very clear about wanting to do something new and I can definitely embrace “new”. There’s certainly a lot of promise within this concept.

But the one-two punch of the PvP-only and games-as-a-service bullet points mean that it will be completely D.O.A. for me. I’m sad to say it, but it’s the truth. I do sincerely hope the game finds an audience, but I won’t be in that number. I simply do not possess the interest, the time, the patience, or the money to deal with the “second job” of yet another FOMO hamster wheel games-as-a-service mind game — especially when it’s limited to PvP-only, which does not interest me at all.

I try to avoid sustained negativity whenever possible, so with that out of the way, I do not plan to offer any further comment on this game.

You're touching on an important point though which is that, in real life and in-game, self expression in itself isn't the point. The point is to communicate status. People don't buy Gucci because Gucci is the one brand that perfectly captures the wearer's innate aesthetic ideal, they buy Gucci because it's high status.

That's part of it, but not the entirety. The irony is that people will buy brands and clothes that someone else made, and use them as personal expression. Few people are out there creating custom clothing to express themselves.

If a game let you create your own outfit and accessories that would be one thing. But the likelihood of that is extremely low.

You're touching on an important point though which is that, in real life and in-game, self expression in itself isn't the point. The point is to communicate status. People don't buy Gucci because Gucci is the one brand that perfectly captures the wearer's innate aesthetic ideal, they buy Gucci because it's high status.

That's part of it, but not the entirety. The irony is that people will buy brands and clothes that someone else made, and use them as personal expression. Few people are out there creating custom clothing to express themselves.

If a game let you create your own outfit and accessories that would be one thing. But the likelihood of that is extremely low.

For good reasons. Everything becomes a penis when unbridled creativity is allowed. Remember how hard they had to work on halo emblems to avoid that possibility. I say this as mostly a joke, but… sex organs are benign compared to other potential expressions.

Blizzard scrapped a campaign with Overwatch that they promised. There is no way Bungie will add one that they did not.

I said I wouldn't bet on it, but it would be a heckuva way to underpromise at this stage of the reveal.

In all the years of Destiny, they have never once underpromised. You’d think if they were going to learn that lesson, the launch of Destiny would have been the thing to learn from. They haven’t yet, so I won’t hold my breath.

Maybe you didn't see the title of the post, or the part where I said I wouldn't bet on it..

Their track record before Destiny was pretty great, and I disagree, Destiny content has exceeded expectations. Even in D1, the raid exceeded expectations. Did anyone see the Dreaming City coming?

Rhetorically, there's been some nod toward PVE (or it could be I'm remembering someone's misinterpretation), and I expect Bungie to try some combination that hasn't been done before. There may be more that satisfies players like me than I can imagine right now. But why be hopeful when we can shit on Bungie again. I lapsed into 2000-era fandom. Pardon me.

Blizzard scrapped a campaign with Overwatch that they promised. There is no way Bungie will add one that they did not.

I said I wouldn't bet on it, but it would be a heckuva way to underpromise at this stage of the reveal.

In all the years of Destiny, they have never once underpromised. You’d think if they were going to learn that lesson, the launch of Destiny would have been the thing to learn from. They haven’t yet, so I won’t hold my breath.

Maybe you didn't see the title of the post, or the part where I said I wouldn't bet on it..

Their track record before Destiny was pretty great, and I disagree, Destiny content has exceeded expectations. Even in D1, the raid exceeded expectations. Did anyone see the Dreaming City coming?

Rhetorically, there's been some nod toward PVE (or it could be I'm remembering someone's misinterpretation), and I expect Bungie to try some combination that hasn't been done before. There may be more that satisfies players like me than I can imagine right now. But why be hopeful when we can shit on Bungie again. I lapsed into 2000-era fandom. Pardon me.

Well, one of the example scenarios in the Vidoc was running into a Compiler and having an "oh no" moment, so...I struggle to see how that is anything but PvE unless they're incorporating Dead by Daylight-esque gameplay by default (much less likely). XD

The premise reminds me of The Division's Dark Zone. It's an interesting concept, but hard to pull off in an appealing way outside of its niche.

Blizzard scrapped a campaign with Overwatch that they promised. There is no way Bungie will add one that they did not.

I said I wouldn't bet on it, but it would be a heckuva way to underpromise at this stage of the reveal.

In all the years of Destiny, they have never once underpromised. You’d think if they were going to learn that lesson, the launch of Destiny would have been the thing to learn from. They haven’t yet, so I won’t hold my breath.

Maybe you didn't see the title of the post, or the part where I said I wouldn't bet on it..

Their track record before Destiny was pretty great, and I disagree, Destiny content has exceeded expectations. Even in D1, the raid exceeded expectations. Did anyone see the Dreaming City coming?

Rhetorically, there's been some nod toward PVE (or it could be I'm remembering someone's misinterpretation), and I expect Bungie to try some combination that hasn't been done before. There may be more that satisfies players like me than I can imagine right now. But why be hopeful when we can shit on Bungie again. I lapsed into 2000-era fandom. Pardon me.

Well, one of the example scenarios in the Vidoc was running into a Compiler and having an "oh no" moment, so...I struggle to see how that is anything but PvE unless they're incorporating Dead by Daylight-esque gameplay by default (much less likely). XD

The premise reminds me of The Division's Dark Zone. It's an interesting concept, but hard to pull off in an appealing way outside of its niche.

They also say that you have a choice to interact with other players. I guess I'm remembering how, as Destiny was starting, they struggled not to be boxed in by the MMO label. If I know Bungie, they're trying to do something that's at least a little different than what has been done. Although the've obviously gone with the PVP extraction shooter label, I'm obviously hoping for more.

A side rant: I know this is just a teaser, but these so-called vidocs have become less substantive as time goes on. You used to have people like Jaime Greisemer or Jon Butcher or Paul Bertone saying insightful things about their process and the serious challenges they set up for themselves. Now I get the impression they use 3 seconds of screen time in vidocs simply to boost the morale of employees. We don't have time to get to know much at all about the employees beyond their name and face, and it's a crapshoot whether what they say has any relation to their job title. It's like reading blurbs on a movie poster. If I were at PAX and recognized someone from this cast of 100s, I'm not sure I'm remember what they did or what they said and be able to start an interesting conversation with them (as has happened in the past). It was nice to see Elliott Gray's smile, though./rant

Precisely why I now want to play games that love you. That are thrilled you picked it and gave your money and time, and which seek to make every second you choose to spend with it as meaningful and engaging as possible. And that let you walk away and end the experience on a high note when you’ve explored it as much as you want.

You should definitely start Tears of the Kingdom.

No grinding for items and consumable resources in that game?

Well, one of the example scenarios in the Vidoc was running into a Compiler and having an "oh no" moment, so...I struggle to see how that is anything but PvE unless they're incorporating Dead by Daylight-esque gameplay by default (much less likely). XD

Gambit is an entire Destiny PvP game mode where you spend the majority of your time fighting non-player combatants. I'm not sure I see why you think that seeing a Compiler couldn't fit into this style of play.

Well, one of the example scenarios in the Vidoc was running into a Compiler and having an "oh no" moment, so...I struggle to see how that is anything but PvE unless they're incorporating Dead by Daylight-esque gameplay by default (much less likely). XD

Gambit is an entire Destiny PvP game mode where you spend the majority of your time fighting non-player combatants. I'm not sure I see why you think that seeing a Compiler couldn't fit into this style of play.

Almost every Extraction Shooter that I can think of heavily employs a PvE aspect and mostly-PvE objectives. The PvP element comes from a need to fight over the same resources, rewards, or limited number of extractions available, but running into other players is at times a secondary aspect of the genre. Sometimes not even that.

In fact, one of my favorite memories in Call of Duty's own Extraction Shooter, DMZ, involved cooperating with another squad to complete PvE objectives for the better part of an hour before we went our separate ways, so the genre alone won't tell us exactly what the game's core focus could be.

Exactly. That tension between PvE and potential PvP is the core of what makes an extraction shooter interesting. Without that, what even is it? It would just be like doing a patrol in Destiny, which is an okay distraction if you’re really bored, but it’s not something that could make an entire game.

Precisely why I now want to play games that love you. That are thrilled you picked it and gave your money and time, and which seek to make every second you choose to spend with it as meaningful and engaging as possible. And that let you walk away and end the experience on a high note when you’ve explored it as much as you want.

You should definitely start Tears of the Kingdom.

No grinding for items and consumable resources in that game?

Not really, no. Not in the sense people typically mean when talking about live service games. The resource economy is an important aspect of balance in the game, but that’s sort of the entire point. It’s not about grinding bullshit currencies to upgrade something. Every resource has multiple uses from being used for upgrading gear, selling for rupees, cooking into power boosting elixirs or foods, or just fusing to weapons for upgrading that weapon’s attack power and durability. It’s not about grinding (doing the same thing over and over) in the way that Destiny or other live service games are, both in the basic gameplay sense or for asking you to complete battle passes.

Using a resource is Tears of the Kingdom is always a decision. Do I sell this diamond because I need a quick 500 rupees? Or do I save it to fuse it to a sword during a tough moment for the extra damage? Or save it even more because I need it as a material to upgrade a set of armor? At any given moment, you can only choose one of those things (unless you’ve saved a bunch, which is another decision). Over a full playthrough you’ll end up with enough of them to do all of that, but each individual moment is a specific decision for any of those options. The game doesn’t expect you to just spend hours doing nothing but finding diamonds (although you certainly could).

Exactly. That tension between PvE and potential PvP is the core of what makes an extraction shooter interesting. Without that, what even is it? It would just be like doing a patrol in Destiny, which is an okay distraction if you’re really bored, but it’s not something that could make an entire game.

Shows what I know. I don't know squat about extraction shooters. But if you can get rewarded for being cooperative, that's a potential positive, and I'll continue to hope for a good narrative that is somehow layered in. If it's sweaty all day long, I don't think it's for me.

Well, one of the example scenarios in the Vidoc was running into a Compiler and having an "oh no" moment, so...I struggle to see how that is anything but PvE unless they're incorporating Dead by Daylight-esque gameplay by default (much less likely). XD

Gambit is an entire Destiny PvP game mode where you spend the majority of your time fighting non-player combatants. I'm not sure I see why you think that seeing a Compiler couldn't fit into this style of play.

And look how great Gambit is presently! :-/

I don't actually know, I just go by what I hear

Well, one of the example scenarios in the Vidoc was running into a Compiler and having an "oh no" moment, so...I struggle to see how that is anything but PvE unless they're incorporating Dead by Daylight-esque gameplay by default (much less likely). XD

Gambit is an entire Destiny PvP game mode where you spend the majority of your time fighting non-player combatants. I'm not sure I see why you think that seeing a Compiler couldn't fit into this style of play.

Maybe you misunderstood, what I meant was that I don't see how what was described is something other than a PvE element. As in, yeah, I'm positive they were describing PvE elements, and I absolutely see how it would work.

But I also think people doing nothing but lamenting that trend should also open their eyes. Gaming has literally never been better. Because Elden Ring did get made. Tears of the Kingdom exists. Great single player games are not dying, they’re better than ever.

For now.

I wonder where the future will be. Will AAA be largely service, with indies being most of the games? Will there be an equilibrium with games and service? Or will the pendulum swing one way, and which way?

Seems like all the companies I used to admire are having the worst outcome here, Naughty Dog excepted.

I saw this today, and it sure was interesting: https://kotaku.com/xbox-ps5-switch-console-pc-revenue-profits-2022-1850552857

I saw this today, and it sure was interesting: https://kotaku.com/xbox-ps5-switch-console-pc-revenue-profits-2022-1850552857

Still, traditional gaming alone still beat U.S. movie box office revenue by almost three times. At $5.99 billion, movies are now dwarfed by gaming. The U.S. film industry is currently valued at $25.8 billion, making it worth less than half as much as the games industry.

So it looks like “traditional” gaming is still massively profitable. It’s just that in game advertising and microtransactions are ludicrously profitable.