So, 2013 is nearly up. 2014 beckons, and with it the Destiny beta. I remain curious, but I have to admit that my excitement has somewhat abated. I still feel like I don't know enough about how Destiny will work.

A couple of weeks ago, Blizzard announced their forthcoming expansion to World of Warcraft — Warlords of Draenor. As well as a whole bunch of new content, (as is becoming quite common) they're also revamping a lot of in-game systems. Mostly it's about making sure things are more fun and meaningful, rather than just hoops to jump through. This expansion isn't going to be released until next year — it's probably around 10 months or so away — and Blizzard's usual caveats about how features aren't set in stone preface everything they announced.

That doesn't stop them from posting this kind of detailed announcement about how equippable items (and their stats) are being changed. A short excerpt:

• Armor pieces will always have some amount of Stamina and Armor value.
  
• Armor pieces always have Strength, Intellect, or Agility as a primary stat. Plate has either Strength or Intellect. Mail and Leather have either Agility or Intellect. Cloth has Intellect.
  
• In the cases of Plate, Mail, and Leather, the primary stat will change depending on your current spec. Specifically, casters (including healers) will get Intellect, and melee or tank specs will get Strength or Agility.

Why do I bring this up here? Because I feel like Bungie are still far too reticent to discuss Destiny game mechanics, under the blanket excuse that ‘things might change’. With the beta perhaps less than 6 months away, I no longer feel like that excuse cuts the mustard. Naturally the majority of players probably won't benefit from or participate in such discussions, but the average player of that ilk doesn't frequent forums like DBO or NeoGAF. If Bungie wishes to be to MMO FPS games what Blizzard is to MMORPGS, this radio silence can't hold forever. Blizzard understands that such announcements are part of a dialogue with the community, rather than just being announcements for players to just accept whether or not they like them.

So in short: I implore Bungie to start sharing with the community their plans for game mechanics. Destiny is intended to be a long-lived project, and I believe that's far more likely to come to fruition with the participation of the community.

- No text -

I'm not sure as it makes that much difference. We're still talking about a yet-to-be-finalised MMO product, where mechanics are new.

Maybe Bungie is planning on this level of participation once the beta is underway, but the tone of comments I've seen thus far has been a little too evasive. If they're not planning it yet, the purpose of highlighting it here is valid: I want to see them engage with the community in more ways than just storyline hinting through ARGs etc.

I'm not sure as it makes that much difference. We're still talking about a yet-to-be-finalised MMO product, where mechanics are new.

Maybe Bungie is planning on this level of participation once the beta is underway, but the tone of comments I've seen thus far has been a little too evasive. If they're not planning it yet, the purpose of highlighting it here is valid: I want to see them engage with the community in more ways than just storyline hinting through ARGs etc.

Maybe, Bungie definitely values the mystery they're packing into Destiny. There are plenty of things that they're iterating on/designing that require hands on experience to judge/comment on. Learning the rate of fire for the Thunderlord without having played the game would be a bizarre vacuum to process that information.

I imagine the Beta will be a massive engagement with the community. I also don't perceive Bungie's tone as evasive, just controlled.

Maybe, Bungie definitely values the mystery they're packing into Destiny. There are plenty of things that they're iterating on/designing that require hands on experience to judge/comment on. Learning the rate of fire for the Thunderlord without having played the game would be a bizarre vacuum to process that information.

I agree with this statement. If you look back on Halo nothing was really said or revealed about gameplay until the release. We basically got what we're getting now: a look at one or two vehicles and weapons and gameplay footage that wasn't even from first person. When Bungie comes out with sequels to games they tend to show more gameplay, but I feel this is mostly because they know you already have the correct context since you've seen and played the first game(s). Also, Bungie will most likely reveal a lot in the month or two before the game releases as that is their normal operating procedure. Compare that to Blizzard who releases a lot of information about their games sometimes years before the game releases and then most of the mechanics end up changing anyway.

Blizzard are talking to their current, ongoing, paying customers about an established set of systems that they're going to change. People have a solid, playable frame of reference within which to imagine how the forthcoming changes will affect the game. They have literal years and hundreds (if not thousands) of real $ invested in the game and the established community around it.

Destiny has none of that.

The risk is, for Bungie, in that talking about systems in isolation, that people will get the wrong idea. They'll have the wrong frame of reference for what is a new game. They'll try to liken it to Halo, or Call of Duty or Borderlands with unfavourable reflections on Destiny.

You can already see this with Bungie being reluctant to call it an MMO, to compare it games like the aforementioned Borderlands. Because while it shares certain elements, takes inspiration from them, it's also changed in the established Bungie style into something that doesn't easily fit into established boxes and stereotypes.

Besides, who can forget the Halo 2 E3 2003 demo?

In short, they want you to see more of it before you really see any of it. To be able to appreciate systems in their larger context. And they don't want to build up false expectations.

WoW's mechanics are well known, and to get a character to the end game, the ultimate goal of most players, requires some knowledge of the mechanics up front due to the enormous time sink needed.

Furthermore, a high level character in WoW will mop the floor with a lower level character. Even at the same level, the difference between high end gear and low end gear is enough that you could sometimes win 2v1 fights. It happened to me several times back when I played.

So for Blizzard, there is enourmous pressure to let people know ahead of time how things will work, because the time investment for players is huge and being stuck with the wrong gear means hours wasted.

Other F2P games like World of Tanks or Star Conflict have the same issue, where patches can take your favorite tank or ship and make it worthless overnight. So the Devs usually try to talk about things up front because otherwise players feel that they have been cheeted or robbed when something they worked on for months becomes nerfed or useless to them.

From the statements so far, Bungie doens't seem to have the same issue. The level and gear delta is more a customization feature then a power level, and no one has invested any game time yet, so changes don't cause any loss to players. The statisitaical info is also in a big flux at this time too. Damage per shot, range, RoF are all items that need a high amount of testing to balance out, and that testing isn't complete.

So Bungie doesn't really have the same pressure to tell us stuff, and leaked info can cause confusion and misinterpretation. As much as we hunger for information, (and I would really like space combat with my custom ship) anything Bungie says will be sized upon and pondered over endlessly, with rampant speculation.

I'm sure they don't want to be reminded how we were promised we could drive around the whole ring of Halo again.

You can already see this with Bungie being reluctant to call it an MMO, to compare it games like the aforementioned Borderlands. Because while it shares certain elements, takes inspiration from them, it's also changed in the established Bungie style into something that doesn't easily fit into established boxes and stereotypes.

How do you know that? What have you seen? Because what we have seen can be described as "Bungie Borderlands" as one IGN article put it.

- No text -

You can already see this with Bungie being reluctant to call it an MMO, to compare it games like the aforementioned Borderlands. Because while it shares certain elements, takes inspiration from them, it's also changed in the established Bungie style into something that doesn't easily fit into established boxes and stereotypes.

How do you know that? What have you seen? Because what we have seen can be described as "Bungie Borderlands" as one IGN article put it.

Not to me. From everything I've read and seen, plus realizing the vast amount I have NO idea about, Destiny seems strange and new to me. Obviously if you want to make comparisons with the incomplete data we have, you can. But I find it exciting that Bungie has been reluctant to describe it using established labels, and I'm happy to do the same. It's too easy to categorize experiences and put them in a box under your bed, but that takes away from the wonder and mystique- the adventure. I'm looking forward to trying Destiny with a somewhat-blank slate.

It's absolutely dangerous for Bungie to do, to wait and let everyone play it before defining it too much, but the payoff could be much greater because of it, when we finally pick up the controller, excited and confused, not really knowing the worlds we're about to explore.

Like stepping out of a Bumblebee lifepod, perhaps?

I'm curious - why do you feel you need to know ANYTHING before going in?

They're holding an open beta - you just need to have a preorder in place to get into it. The preorder costs nothing - and you can cancel it before release, so it can CONTINUE to cost nothing in perpetuity.

The cost of entry is ZERO. Why do you feel you need to know details before trying it?

And even if you think that just DOWNLOADING AND PLAYING is something you shouldn't have to try without some additional information... why not just skip the beta and read the reports from the people who didn't?

I understand the INTEREST in getting info up front; we're all pretty impatient. I simply don't understand this NEED.

Not to me. From everything I've read and seen, plus realizing the vast amount I have NO idea about, Destiny seems strange and new to me. Obviously if you want to make comparisons with the incomplete data we have, you can. But I find it exciting that Bungie has been reluctant to describe it using established labels, and I'm happy to do the same. It's too easy to categorize experiences and put them in a box under your bed, but that takes away from the wonder and mystique- the adventure. I'm looking forward to trying Destiny with a somewhat-blank slate.

Okay. Since it's difficult to argue a post filled with so many personal qualifications, I'll just go back to the original point.

RC said:

Because while it shares certain elements, takes inspiration from them, it's also changed in the established Bungie style into something that doesn't easily fit into established boxes and stereotypes.

This is an assertion. "It is changed in the established Bungie style... doesn't easily fit into established boxes and stereotypes."

I ask for evidence:

How do you know that? What have you seen? Because what we have seen can be described as "Bungie Borderlands" as one IGN article put it.

I don't think I'm out of bounds in making the Borderlands comparison. The only substantial difference we've seen between Destiny and BL is the "public event" mechanic, the appearance of which was so brief and the explanation of which so vague it's difficult to carve that notch into the tally.

I'm not saying you're not allowed to have faith. I'm not saying Bungie should or shouldn't release X amount of info. But RC's post and my question were about facts. He made a claim. I asked for evidence.

Do it nao Bungie.

Honestly. I'd expect news/game mechanics etc to start rolling out on a weekly basis about a month before the beta launches.

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Okay. Since it's difficult to argue a post filled with so many personal qualifications, I'll just go back to the original point.

I view pretty much all comments on the Internet as personal and subjective viewpoints put forth, so I'm not the guy to talk to if you want a lab report. :)

RC said:

Because while it shares certain elements, takes inspiration from them, it's also changed in the established Bungie style into something that doesn't easily fit into established boxes and stereotypes.

This is an assertion. "It is changed in the established Bungie style... doesn't easily fit into established boxes and stereotypes."

I ask for evidence:

How do you know that? What have you seen? Because what we have seen can be described as "Bungie Borderlands" as one IGN article put it.

I don't think I'm out of bounds in making the Borderlands comparison. The only substantial difference we've seen between Destiny and BL is the "public event" mechanic, the appearance of which was so brief and the explanation of which so vague it's difficult to carve that notch into the tally.

I'm not saying you're not allowed to have faith. I'm not saying Bungie should or shouldn't release X amount of info. But RC's post and my question were about facts. He made a claim. I asked for evidence.

I would say the evidence for RC's position is Bungie's past games, at least the first of each series and how they could have been grouped with similar games beforehand, but once played, were seen as revolutionary or evolutionary to their related genres. Halo CE, a long with others, expanded what FPS meant. Destiny could do the same, or create a bridge not yet crossed between different genres.

There's also the evidence of Bungie's comments and actions regarding their roll-out of Destiny. Which seem to say they believe the above might be true.

And then there's the plain lack of actual evidence any which way, because there is so much we don't know, and that is another reason I see no reason to label or define it, as that would just diminish the possible new experience as I described in my previous post. We simply don't know enough to talk about this stuff yet. I don't think, and I'm pretty sure Bungie doesn't think, that players should go into Destiny thinking it's a variation of 'x' game.

I view pretty much all comments on the Internet as personal and subjective viewpoints put forth, so I'm not the guy to talk to if you want a lab report. :)

That's fine. More power to you, I guess. But, if you need to view everything as subjective and are incapable of arguing from a non-personal standpoint, then I think you should reconsider your willingness to argue for someone else (RC).

Your original post is more in response to kapowaz's OP. He's arguing that it's a problem that we know very little about Destiny so close to the beta. You're arguing that not knowing about it is good, or at least not bad. Okay. That's got nothing to do with my question to RC though, and I'm not trying to have an argument with you about about the value of knowing what things when. Surprises can be nice.

I would say the evidence for RC's position is Bungie's past games, at least the first of each series and how they could have been grouped with similar games beforehand, but once played, were seen as revolutionary or evolutionary to their related genres. Halo CE, a long with others, expanded what FPS meant. Destiny could do the same, or create a bridge not yet crossed between different genres.

There's also the evidence of Bungie's actions. Which seem to say they believe the above might be true.

And then there's the plain lack of actual evidence any which way, because there is so much we don't know, and that is another reason I see no reason to label or define it, as that would just diminish the possible new experience as I described in my previous post. We simply don't know enough to talk about this stuff yet. I don't think, and I'm pretty sure Bungie doesn't think, that players should go into Destiny thinking it's a variation of 'x' game.

Your evidence has failed to convince me of RC's assertion:

Because while it shares certain elements, takes inspiration from them, it's also changed in the established Bungie style into something that doesn't easily fit into established boxes and stereotypes.

I'd also like to know what the "established Bungie style" is. I wasn't aware there was one.

It was nice seeing her post on NeoGAF the other day.

I'd also like to know what the "established Bungie style" is.

NPCs running around like headless chickens, screaming incoherently.

I implore Bungie...

We will not be implored!

Hey, there. I get where this is coming from. I've been a hungry reader of this forum and the front pages of b.org since the lead up to Halo 2. I know what it's like to want to know everything. I'm the least patient person that anyone who knows me knows. At times, that has made me my own worst enemy. I've walked out of movies and shrugged and said "Well, I saw that whole movie on their website before I bought my ticket..."

There will come a time for you to know what you want to know. You'll have all the information you need to decide if you want to play Destiny. For now, we're still introducing people to this new world, and enticing them to join us in the Beta.

You're the hardcore. You're the inner circle. I know you want us to keep a faster pace. We'll get there.

Thanks for being impatient. Sincerely.

- No text -

That's fine. More power to you, I guess. But, if you need to view everything as subjective and are incapable of arguing from a non-personal standpoint, then I think you should reconsider your willingness to argue for someone else (RC).

Heh, my original post was just throwing in my two cents. I only brought up my favorite RC car when you did, to try to clarify those two pennies. RC can certainly speak for himself. :)

Your evidence has failed to convince me of RC's assertion:

Because while it shares certain elements, takes inspiration from them, it's also changed in the established Bungie style into something that doesn't easily fit into established boxes and stereotypes.

I'd also like to know what the "established Bungie style" is. I wasn't aware there was one.

And this is the kind of reason I try (and often fail) to stay away from objective debates on the internet and go more for the... Casual Subjective Trade of Ideas approach (yeah, why not), because the 'Bungie style' is so ingrained in my head that I'd have to sit with you, play through every game, and gab incoherently about cool this or that aspect is. I often assume folks on B.Org forums have a similar idea of the Bungie style, or at least, the various incarnations of it over the years. I didn't realize it needed defining, and it's a rather hard thing to do in a technical or objective way. :)

But playing the games like that sounds fun, so come over and pick up a controller, please, and we can discuss.

You're the hardcore. You're the inner circle. I know you want us to keep a faster pace. We'll get there.

I imagine its like a long distance race, you don't want to get burned out after the first half mile. Gotta save some juice for the last 100 meters and sprint to the finish.

Thanks for being impatient. Sincerely.

Thanks for being responsive! It's nice to be reminded we're heard. Can't wait to see more.

Ain't she, though?

[Smitten]

Maybe, Bungie definitely values the mystery they're packing into Destiny. There are plenty of things that they're iterating on/designing that require hands on experience to judge/comment on. Learning the rate of fire for the Thunderlord without having played the game would be a bizarre vacuum to process that information.

It's the vacuum I'm talking about. There are so many unknowns related to things like: how will your damage and health be affected by gear, how much will stats play a part in whether your shots hit, and a myriad more besides.

I imagine the Beta will be a massive engagement with the community. I also don't perceive Bungie's tone as evasive, just controlled.

I think when I used that word I was casting my mind back to a Q&A session where they repeatedly said 'we're not talking about that today.' Possibly a little unfair, but it kind of set the tone for me.

Blizzard are talking to their current, ongoing, paying customers

When we're talking about a fan site like DBO, and numerous very likely already pre-ordered customers who are thus eligible for the beta... how is it that much different?

The risk is, for Bungie, in that talking about systems in isolation, that people will get the wrong idea. They'll have the wrong frame of reference for what is a new game. They'll try to liken it to Halo, or Call of Duty or Borderlands with unfavourable reflections on Destiny.

People do that if they are NOT specific. People won't get the wrong idea if you are clear and confident about how your game works. It will stand on its own.

There is no use hiding it, because people will get the game in their hands sooner or later. Best to be as detailed as possible so someone buying the game at least knows what kind of game they will be playing. If revealing your mechanics makes you nervous, then that's pretty fucked up, because that's the base of your game! A reluctance to reveal BASIC mechanics seems like nothing more than insecurity.

Bungie doesn't have to get as specific as Blizzard, but jeez tell us how the game will play. Surely you have an idea by now.

I'm curious - why do you feel you need to know ANYTHING before going in?

They're holding an open beta - you just need to have a preorder in place to get into it. The preorder costs nothing - and you can cancel it before release, so it can CONTINUE to cost nothing in perpetuity.

The cost of entry is ZERO. Why do you feel you need to know details before trying it?

And even if you think that just DOWNLOADING AND PLAYING is something you shouldn't have to try without some additional information... why not just skip the beta and read the reports from the people who didn't?

I understand the INTEREST in getting info up front; we're all pretty impatient. I simply don't understand this NEED.

We are nervous because of the muddle. That's why it matters. If you are making a great game you are excited and proud of, you should be able to explain the basics and let folks know what it'll be like. Bungie hasn't really done that. It's not like they've said nothing. That would have been fine. The problem is they ARE trying to describe it, but it's very wishy washy. Why do they feel they have to be vague?

You're the hardcore. You're the inner circle. I know you want us to keep a faster pace. We'll get there.

Thanks for being impatient. Sincerely.

I don't think that's exactly the frustration.

The frustration is that the info you've CHOSEN to reveal isn't very clear, when there really isn't any reason why it has to be murky. You guys have tried to describe your game to us, choosing a meaningless term like "shared world shooter".

Wrong: "Shared world Shooter"
Right: "FPS with MMO and Open World elements" (Example)

One says a great deal. The other says nothing. If you wanted to say nothing, best just not to say anything.

How do you know that? What have you seen? Because what we have seen can be described as "Bungie Borderlands" as one IGN article put it.

FWIW, having played Borderlands to death, I "know it when I see it." Destiny gameplay videos put off that B-lands vibe.

I'm curious - why do you feel you need to know ANYTHING before going in?

They're holding an open beta - you just need to have a preorder in place to get into it. The preorder costs nothing - and you can cancel it before release, so it can CONTINUE to cost nothing in perpetuity.

The cost of entry is ZERO. Why do you feel you need to know details before trying it?

And even if you think that just DOWNLOADING AND PLAYING is something you shouldn't have to try without some additional information... why not just skip the beta and read the reports from the people who didn't?

I understand the INTEREST in getting info up front; we're all pretty impatient. I simply don't understand this NEED.

First of all, this isn't about selling the concept to me; I pre-ordered months ago for beta access, as I'm naturally curious. I fully intend to play the beta and poke around it, but what I talked about above isn't specifically for my own benefit.

I was careful not to use the word ‘need’ — I don't think of this as something that Bungie needs to do, but I do think it's something they'd benefit from doing. It builds interest and loyalty amongst gamers, who feel like they're being given privileged insight into how the game they're looking forward to playing works ‘on the inside’. A lot of Kickstarter-backed games are choosing to show their progress with early alpha builds and discussions of mechanics with their backers. In some ways, beta registrants and regulars on forums like DBO are analogous to Kickstarter backers — they're the early adopters who will evangelise the game to their friends and encourage others to buy it and play.

My view is that for certain types of game it's still fine for developers to adopt a veil of secrecy until the game is all but finished, then show it off. But I'm less convinced this approach works well for a game that has a persistent, evolving world with thousands of players. For one thing, such a game environment tends to attract a sizeable number of min-maxers; players who will poke and prod at every game mechanic and possible combination of abilities and items in order to find out what provides them with the ultimate statistical advantage. Regardless of how good your QA team is, these players will find holes in your game design, and they will exploit them. Transparency about how your game mechanics are intended to work is better here, so that issues can be flagged by the community at large.

There is a cost to all this. Community engagement is hard — when Greg Street (until today*, WoW's lead systems designer) first began talking directly to the WoW community back in 2008 I think it's fair to say he found it hard work. Fans can be unpleasant and shouty about the things they want and don't want in the game they love. But ultimately they're usually motivated by a desire to see the game improved, and I don't doubt that the kind of engagement Blizzard has adopted has benefited them enormously. And I think Bungie should take a leaf out of their book.

*He's leaving Blizzard to take up “a great opportunity for something new and exciting” — I would absolutely love it if it turns out to be Destiny he's chosen to move to work on.

We are nervous because of the muddle. That's why it matters. If you are making a great game you are excited and proud of, you should be able to explain the basics and let folks know what it'll be like. Bungie hasn't really done that. It's not like they've said nothing. That would have been fine. The problem is they ARE trying to describe it, but it's very wishy washy. Why do they feel they have to be vague?

Well put. I have been more or less ignoring Destiny news for the last couple of months (because really there hasn't been any) and still it feels like we're no closer to having the fog of war lifted.

You're the hardcore. You're the inner circle. I know you want us to keep a faster pace. We'll get there.

Thanks for being impatient. Sincerely.

I don't think the schedule is necessarily as important as the destination. Will you engage with us in the ways I've described at some point, presumably no later than the start of the beta?

…when Cody and I are in such clear agreement. I wonder if that should be taken as a sign?

- No text -

You're the hardcore. You're the inner circle. I know you want us to keep a faster pace. We'll get there.

Thanks for being impatient. Sincerely.

I don't think that's exactly the frustration.

The frustration is that the info you've CHOSEN to reveal isn't very clear, when there really isn't any reason why it has to be murky. You guys have tried to describe your game to us, choosing a meaningless term like "shared world shooter".

Wrong: "Shared world Shooter"
Right: "FPS with MMO and Open World elements" (Example)

One says a great deal. The other says nothing. If you wanted to say nothing, best just not to say anything.

Honestly, "Shared World Shooter" says "FPS with MMO and Open World elements" just fine. I gathered that the first time I heard it. Borderlands was (correct me if I'm wrong) the first of its breed, taking the Diablo model and applying it to shooters. Bungie appears to be making an effort to further define that method of presenation. Coining a digestible, encompassing term is kind of a natural next step in that process.

I'm not so much concerned about the lack of information on gameplay mechanics as I am about the lack of variety in what we're seeing out of gameplay. The vehicle coverage has been scant, PvP footage has been almost nonexistent, I think something of this caliber is more than called for at this juncture.

~m

Honestly, "Shared World Shooter" says "FPS with MMO and Open World elements" just fine.

If the two terms are interchangeable who go to the effort of defining a new term at all? Why not just call it an MMOFPS and call it a day?

Honestly, "Shared World Shooter" says "FPS with MMO and Open World elements" just fine.

If the two terms are interchangeable who go to the effort of defining a new term at all? Why not just call it an MMOFPS and call it a day?

...because they've been over that same ground a million times already? Anything that starts with "MMO" immediately causes any potential customer to say "okay, so what's the monthly fee?", among other things. There are MMO trappings, but it is not a bona fide MMO infrastructure, as far as we've been led to understand it. (...Speaking of which, I'd be fascinated to look at their backend design docs.)

Calling it an MMO-anything would be incorrect. That acronym alone steers the audience's impression away from what it actually is.

~m

...because they've been over that same ground a million times already? Anything that starts with "MMO" immediately causes any potential customer to say "okay, so what's the monthly fee?", among other things.

Blah blah blah.

Activision has a MARKETING DEPARTMENT. Thus, Bungie should explain what their game is, and the marketing department should do their job and SELL THE PUBLIC ON THE GAME. If they don't want what you just said to happen, then tailor a marketing campaign as such.

Not rocket science.

...because they've been over that same ground a million times already? Anything that starts with "MMO" immediately causes any potential customer to say "okay, so what's the monthly fee?", among other things.

Blah blah blah.

Activision has a MARKETING DEPARTMENT. Thus, Bungie should explain what their game is, and the marketing department should do their job and SELL THE PUBLIC ON THE GAME. If they don't want what you just said to happen, then tailor a marketing campaign as such.

Not rocket science.

One could argue (and I'm done doing that, here) that this has already been achieved; masterfully, succinctly, and in three little words:

Shared. World. Shooter.

*Also* not rocket science.

~m

...because they've been over that same ground a million times already? Anything that starts with "MMO" immediately causes any potential customer to say "okay, so what's the monthly fee?", among other things.

There are loads of MMOs with no subscription fees. If anything, the current trend is away from charging a recurring subscription fee and instead relying on the initial retail copy + micro-transactions, so I don't see why that's a major concern.

Calling it an MMO-anything would be incorrect. That acronym alone steers the audience's impression away from what it actually is.

Massively Multiplayer Online.

Yeah, I can see where the confusion would arise on that one.

One could argue (and I'm done doing that, here) that this has already been achieved; masterfully, succinctly, and in three little words:

Shared. World. Shooter.

So masterfully that we're still debating the term in this very thread.

Feeling old today. I'm cold. My joints are achey. So forgive my crotchety manner. Forgive me if I'm saying what I've already said on other occasions.

I've been a passionate fan of many creators--writers, musicians, filmmakers, and Bungie.

Many of those in the currently active category have already disappointed me. Release days come--that writer whose books I've always loved finally writes a dud. That band, that director, that actor--it's the same for almost all.

Bungie has a near perfect record with me. Halo 2 did let me down, slightly, but time and nostalgia have made that seem a minor misstep during a long journey.

I love this anticipatory time. Market demands and fans' curiosity aside, I wouldn't personally care if Bungie didn't show me anything else before launch day. I want the game to be successful, and I want them to do what is necessary to sell it, but they don't need to sell me.

The closer we get, the less I want to see, really. Geoff Keighley can suck it. I'm playing the game, and I'm savoring the anticipation of playing it. I'm not without fear that it will be a dud and I won't like it, but I'm enjoying the sensation of feeling very little of that fear. Maybe I'm foolish, but it's one more thing to be happy about--this trust I have in Bungie. It's not as common as it used to be.

Also, like Claude said, there's the beta! THE BETA! Won't every mode be included? We've never gotten such a taste without spending a dime.

I can understand the impatience. I don't have it. Time is galloping. Soon enough I will have finished the game. I anticipate being happy then. It feels good.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I'll be annoyed when I don't enjoy one of their games.

I can understand the impatience. I don't have it. Time is galloping. Soon enough I will have finished the game. I anticipate being happy then. It feels good.

Characterising what I wrote as impatience really does miss the point. This isn't about me or any other fan impatiently making demands - read my response to Claude for a more detailed breakdown of why I think this is something Bungie should do.

I'm curious - why do you feel you need to know ANYTHING before going in?

They're holding an open beta - you just need to have a preorder in place to get into it. The preorder costs nothing - and you can cancel it before release, so it can CONTINUE to cost nothing in perpetuity.

The cost of entry is ZERO. Why do you feel you need to know details before trying it?

And even if you think that just DOWNLOADING AND PLAYING is something you shouldn't have to try without some additional information... why not just skip the beta and read the reports from the people who didn't?

I understand the INTEREST in getting info up front; we're all pretty impatient. I simply don't understand this NEED.

We are nervous because of the muddle. That's why it matters. If you are making a great game you are excited and proud of, you should be able to explain the basics and let folks know what it'll be like. Bungie hasn't really done that. It's not like they've said nothing. That would have been fine. The problem is they ARE trying to describe it, but it's very wishy washy. Why do they feel they have to be vague?

And we're not nervous because we don't see it as muddle. I have a pretty good idea of the basics of Destiny, hell we've seen a very clear demo that demonstrates the core idea of the game. Your friend joins you to run through a dungeon shooting things together and another friend joins you before you all run into a public event and battle what has been clearly described as a recurring event designed to be a challenge for a large group of players.

It doesn't seem wishy washy at all. It's brutally straight forward actually. If someone was complaining that they hadn't heard how many plasma rifle shots it would take to bring down the shields of an elite before Halo released, I'd be very concerned about their expectations.

Maybe, Bungie definitely values the mystery they're packing into Destiny. There are plenty of things that they're iterating on/designing that require hands on experience to judge/comment on. Learning the rate of fire for the Thunderlord without having played the game would be a bizarre vacuum to process that information.

It's the vacuum I'm talking about. There are so many unknowns related to things like: how will your damage and health be affected by gear, how much will stats play a part in whether your shots hit, and a myriad more besides.

I imagine the Beta will be a massive engagement with the community. I also don't perceive Bungie's tone as evasive, just controlled.

I think when I used that word I was casting my mind back to a Q&A session where they repeatedly said 'we're not talking about that today.' Possibly a little unfair, but it kind of set the tone for me.

Yeah I just see "we're not talking about that today" as clear. It doesn't try to trick you into thinking they've answered the question, they're straight up saying "look we are not ready to discuss that".

Blizzard are talking to their current, ongoing, paying customers

When we're talking about a fan site like DBO, and numerous very likely already pre-ordered customers who are thus eligible for the beta... how is it that much different?

Should have been "playing customers". Given that we don't have the game on our hands or have even played the beta, what context do we have for the type of balance info you're looking for? None.

I'm sure they're going to get into some nitty gritty details once players start calling out imbalances and start poking and prodding the darkest corners of destiny. It will be an awesome festival of feedback that I'm pretty sure Bungie will roll around in with a huge grin on their face.

You're the hardcore. You're the inner circle. I know you want us to keep a faster pace. We'll get there.

Thanks for being impatient. Sincerely.

I don't think that's exactly the frustration.

The frustration is that the info you've CHOSEN to reveal isn't very clear, when there really isn't any reason why it has to be murky. You guys have tried to describe your game to us, choosing a meaningless term like "shared world shooter".

Wrong: "Shared world Shooter"
Right: "FPS with MMO and Open World elements" (Example)

One says a great deal. The other says nothing. If you wanted to say nothing, best just not to say anything.

If I said "FPS with MMO and Open World Elements" he would have immediately been thrown completely off base as a WOW/Eve Online player.

Instead of incorrect assumptions it got him to ask me "So what does the Shared World mean" and I was able to point out how Public Events, Fireteams, and the City were going to work. Better than having to answer a few questions like "Is there a monthly fee? Will there be guilds? Does it have a hotbar?"

The risk is, for Bungie, in that talking about systems in isolation, that people will get the wrong idea. They'll have the wrong frame of reference for what is a new game. They'll try to liken it to Halo, or Call of Duty or Borderlands with unfavourable reflections on Destiny.

People do that if they are NOT specific. People won't get the wrong idea if you are clear and confident about how your game works. It will stand on its own.

There is no use hiding it, because people will get the game in their hands sooner or later. Best to be as detailed as possible so someone buying the game at least knows what kind of game they will be playing. If revealing your mechanics makes you nervous, then that's pretty fucked up, because that's the base of your game! A reluctance to reveal BASIC mechanics seems like nothing more than insecurity.

Bungie doesn't have to get as specific as Blizzard, but jeez tell us how the game will play. Surely you have an idea by now.

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I can understand the impatience. I don't have it. Time is galloping. Soon enough I will have finished the game. I anticipate being happy then. It feels good.

Characterising what I wrote as impatience really does miss the point. This isn't about me or any other fan impatiently making demands - read my response to Claude for a more detailed breakdown of why I think this is something Bungie should do.

Unless I'm reading badly, your detailed breakdown boils down to 'engaging the hardcore sooner builds buzz for the final product, and this is important because the type of game Destiny strives to be requires a large quantity of initial players if it's to excel and grow.'

This is the part most of us arguing with you disagree isn't happening. Destiny is already setting preorder records, and every single one of those preorders has access to a free beta that comes out before the actual game. I don't think we disagree in CONCEPT that people need to know what the game's really about before they plunk their money down - I think we just disagree in TIMING. You seem to feel that if we don't know yet, Bungie's losing potential sales down the road from people who simply aren't getting hyped up for a purchase. And I feel that the hype has been well-managed; our expectations aren't TOO high, because we honestly don't know enough to be overhyped yet - but they're high enough that for most people who have ANY curiosity, preordering the game to get a taste before final release seems like a no-brainer.

Unless I'm reading badly, your detailed breakdown boils down to 'engaging the hardcore sooner builds buzz for the final product, and this is important because the type of game Destiny strives to be requires a large quantity of initial players if it's to excel and grow.'

Yeah, you're reading badly. That's one reason (actually not the reason I was giving) but not the only, and not even necessarily the most important.

In a nutshell:

MMO mechanics need scrutinising under the watchful gaze of min-maxers. This is better if done in public rather than through reverse-engineering in secret (exploits that are publicly spotted get fixed; in private they might just be privately exploited for a while).

Should this happen before the beta starts? Not necessarily. But it shouldn't happen much later than that, in my opinion.

The other matter was one of building loyalty etc. Now I've not seen the figures for Destiny being a pre-order record breaker but anecdotally speaking I've felt like it's not that much in the gamer public consciousness. I went to Eurogamer Expo with some gamer friends and commented that I hoped Destiny would be on show. They were all like 'what's that?'. All three of them used to be in a Halo clan with me. Once inside I saw Bungie did have a pretty minor presence, but it had almost nobody paying it heed. I saw vastly bigger queues for games like Dark Souls 2 or any Nintendo title than people around the otherwise deserted Destiny stand. Maybe this 'shared world shooter' isn't so readily understood as people on this forum think? I don't know. Either way, I think there's certainly room for a lot more awareness-building and excitement-generating. Don't mistake your own enthusiasm as universal.

This is the part most of us arguing with you disagree isn't happening.

It confuses me why this is an 'argument' in the first place. What is it about the suggestions I made that makes them so abhorrent to people on this forum that rather than provoking a reaction like, hey yeah, that could be really insightful and interesting! people get their back up and start defending Bungie's current course of action as if they're above criticism or suggestions for improvement? It's a pretty common theme on this forum that criticism is met with Fisking. Can I ask that you try and see it from somebody else's perspective for once?

You're the hardcore. You're the inner circle. I know you want us to keep a faster pace. We'll get there.

Thanks for being impatient. Sincerely.

I don't think the schedule is necessarily as important as the destination. Will you engage with us in the ways I've described at some point, presumably no later than the start of the beta?

I kind of took that as a given. Remember how they revealed a major new system every week for 2 months before the Reach beta launched? I'm expecting something similar here.

Personally I'm not offended by your comment, for me it was mostly that it seems comparing an update to a LONG established MMO to a brand new IP seems strange. Like said by other people, introducing the mechanics it seems would be complicated at best without revealing the entire system of gameplay. Which is why DeeJ responded about patience. They WANT to discuss mechanics, but revealing a small piece when we don't understand the rest of the systems would not bring much clarity and could even give people the wrong impression. If Bungie's timetable holds up (which so far it has held up compared to Halo 2, 3, and Reach) then they will have a huge information drop right before the beta so we know what to do when they drop us in. And unlike most betas that come out now they have said the Beta really is to test EVERYTHING, not just for bugs and exploits, but for balancing. So to me the question of when they will discuss the mechanics and take feedback from the community will be when we can play it and understand it, not when we can look at it out of context and judge it good or not without knowing how it feels to play it. I think we've all read enough "Halo sucks" posts by people who describe Halo as another boring sci-fi shooter that go on to describe it accurately but they miss the point of what makes Halo great. Words are great, numbers are great, but I want to see it all in context, and then I will tell Bungie what I think and I know they'll be listening.

</rambling>

Yeah, I agree 10/10.

It confuses me why this is an 'argument' in the first place. What is it about the suggestions I made that makes them so abhorrent to people on this forum that rather than provoking a reaction like, hey yeah, that could be really insightful and interesting! people get their back up and start defending Bungie's current course of action as if they're above criticism or suggestions for improvement? It's a pretty common theme on this forum that criticism is met with Fisking. Can I ask that you try and see it from somebody else's perspective for once?

Love the condescension - really helps me want to have a discussion like this.

The problem is not that nobody understands your perspective - the problem is that you're asking for the same thing you've been asking for for weeks (months?), and it's something that Bungie has, many times, said "thanks for your input, we're not going that way."

I'm not defending Bungie's course of action - I'm accepting it, and personally appreciating it. I understand that you're not - but that's not going to change the fact that they understand what you want, and have said, repeatedly (and politely), that you're not going to get it.

There are people here who LIKE that there's very little info about how the game is played - are you saying that your opinion is more valuable than theirs, that they shouldn't be able to answer your request for greater transparency with their own hope for a launch day (or beta day) surprise? That disagreement with your point of view is automatically placing Bungie above criticism?

Characterising what I wrote as impatience really does miss the point. This isn't about me or any other fan impatiently making demands - read my response to Claude for a more detailed breakdown of why I think this is something Bungie should do.

Your post was just an excuse for me to write about my own subjective feelings regarding the Bungie's reveal strategy.

I appreciate your posts, so don't take it personally. I don't really understand your point of view post-beta announcement, but okay. You seem to have a better idea than I do regarding what kind of game Destiny is, and how a community should be built for such a game. I can't debate what I don't know, so I went with "This is where my head is regarding Destiny."

Love the condescension - really helps me want to have a discussion like this.

There's some irony in you complaining about condescension (imagined, by the way) given your tendency to write angry screeds with words in ALL CAPS for emphasis. Presumably there's nothing condescending about that in your mind?

Seriously though, if you feel like I'm going over old ground then I don't see why you'd even bother to respond.

I appreciate your posts, so don't take it personally. I don't really understand your point of view post-beta announcement, but okay. You seem to have a better idea than I do regarding what kind of game Destiny is, and how a community should be built for such a game. I can't debate what I don't know, so I went with "This is where my head is regarding Destiny."

Not taken personally, don't worry - I just wanted to focus on what I consider the important point of what I wrote, which isn't really about me at all, but what I think would help Bungie make Destiny succeed.

I don't know if I'm in the right direction with my thinking about how Destiny will play. It's kind of frustrating that this late in the day I still don't have much clarity in that regard, but I've decided to just run with the idea of it being how I imagine it will be, and I'll have to amend my thinking later if I'm badly wrong. All of what I wrote is predicated on certain assumptions about gameplay, but I think it very unlikely that the gameplay is so different that it invalidates my suggested engagement with the community on game mechanics.

As ever, we shall see.

There's some irony in you complaining about condescension (imagined, by the way) given your tendency to write angry screeds with words in ALL CAPS for emphasis. Presumably there's nothing condescending about that in your mind?

Nope - if anything, it's me not adjusting to the times.

I still use caps to emphasize - I write forum posts like I write email, like I used to write usenet posts; without thinking, usually, about stuff like bold and italics (which would serve the exact same purpose but wouldn't make you misinterpret my words as angry screeds). Sorry - I'm old. Sometimes, when I'm just writing stuff, I'm not thinking about the lens my words are being looked at THROUGH. (Sorry, through.)

It's funny - I just saw an article about this two days ago - about how periods in text messages are now being interpreted as 'angry'. I laughed - I guess I shouldn't have.

It's funny - I just saw an article about this two days ago - about how periods in text messages are now being interpreted as 'angry'. I laughed - I guess I shouldn't have.

I saw the same article and had the exact same reaction. If that's all it takes for people to think I'm angry then they don't know me very well.

It's funny - I just saw an article about this two days ago - about how periods in text messages are now being interpreted as 'angry'. I laughed - I guess I shouldn't have.

How do people know if you've finished a sentence?

It's funny - I just saw an article about this two days ago - about how periods in text messages are now being interpreted as 'angry'. I laughed - I guess I shouldn't have.

I'm surprised. By now I assumed everyone who had used the internet for more than 4 or 5 years understood (and had read about one of the numerous studies about) how tone is consistently misread in the written word, particularly online. The best thing you can do is use explicit tone through exclamation marks (to show enthusiasm!) and judicious use of emphasis. All caps has meant shouting since the very first time I posted on Usenet, in 1997 (I remember a classmate at university being chided for it).

So, I guess what I mean to say is that when you only choose to respond to me to disagree, vehemently, usually by repeatedly emphasising the same word, it comes across as pointedly negative if not outright hostile. That's the persona you have painted for me. I'm afraid you have to take some responsibility for that, and just claiming that it's because you're old fashioned doesn't cut it.

The recurring theme I have when I post on DBO is that there is some usually pretty interesting debate, then 2-3 people come in and declare that not only is this opinion wrong, but (words to the effect of) why did you even post this? It seems to come about exclusively on topics where somebody who holds Bungie to be infallible might perceive the subject as being critical of Bungie's actions. And I'm afraid this is more or less exclusively the kind of response you write to my posts. It's an unhealthily absolutist perspective, one that I suspect others find unappealing too.

I think it's fair to say we all share a love of Bungie's work, their mindset and their approach. That much is probably never going to change. But the world of games development doesn't stand still, and what was brilliance at one stage will ultimately be considered a baseline later on. Bungie staff know full well they need to continually raise the bar, but I feel like this isn't as widely understood amongst fans here. Appreciating that the future path of games will mean trying out new and different things is something all fans will need to recognise, or else forever be bitter about the 'good old days'. So rather than dismiss, how about we encourage these different viewpoints: they enrich each and every one of us.

I saw the same article and had the exact same reaction. If that's all it takes for people to think I'm angry then they don't know me very well.

They can know you very well and still fall into the same trap; the main reason it happens is because conversation is reliant on all manner of non-verbal cues taken from (amongst others) body language. Some linguists would say it's far less what you say that matters, and far more about how you say it. Once you take all those cues away we are reduced to the same level as an autistic person, somebody who simply doesn't understand the cues, and I'm sure you're familiar with how difficult that makes conversing for those individuals!

There's lots of material to be read on the subject if you're interested. Personally I find it fascinating stuff - if can explain a lot about how disagreements form when talking online...!

Blizzard are talking to their current, ongoing, paying customers

When we're talking about a fan site like DBO, and numerous very likely already pre-ordered customers who are thus eligible for the beta... how is it that much different?

How much did your pre-order cost you? When was the last time you paid Bungie for game-related content or services? Even if you bought Destiny at launch and did not like it, how much of that money would be unrecoverable?

At least where I live, Blizzard's customers pay at least the equivalent of a brand new game, a map pack and Xbox Live Gold every year just to play World of Warcraft - nevermind the expansions. They need to keep those customers happy so as not to interrupt their revenue stream.

Bungie need to win over customers, while Blizzard need to avoid losing customers.

You can already see this with Bungie being reluctant to call it an MMO, to compare it games like the aforementioned Borderlands. Because while it shares certain elements, takes inspiration from them, it's also changed in the established Bungie style into something that doesn't easily fit into established boxes and stereotypes.

How do you know that? What have you seen? Because what we have seen can be described as "Bungie Borderlands" as one IGN article put it.

I haven't played Borderlands so... *shrugs*

What I've heard though is that Borderlands is more RPG-leveling than it is shooter. And more co-op than it is 'shared-world.' Is there even a PvP part?

Still though, even qualifying it as 'Bungie X' does establish that they have a distinct style. No?

It's funny - I just saw an article about this two days ago - about how periods in text messages are now being interpreted as 'angry'. I laughed - I guess I shouldn't have.

I'm surprised. By now I assumed everyone who had used the internet for more than 4 or 5 years understood (and had read about one of the numerous studies about) how tone is consistently misread in the written word, particularly online. The best thing you can do is use explicit tone through exclamation marks (to show enthusiasm!) and judicious use of emphasis. All caps has meant shouting since the very first time I posted on Usenet, in 1997 (I remember a classmate at university being chided for it).

There's a pretty large difference between ALL CAPS ALL THE TIME and all caps in ONE word. You're the first person I've ever spoken to that seems to think those are equivalent. (And no, that's not an exaggeration.)

So, I guess what I mean to say is that when you only choose to respond to me to disagree, vehemently, usually by repeatedly emphasising the same word, it comes across as pointedly negative if not outright hostile. That's the persona you have painted for me. I'm afraid you have to take some responsibility for that, and just claiming that it's because you're old fashioned doesn't cut it.

::shrug:: Not sure what I can say then, except I'm sorry - that's not how it was meant; it's not how it was ever meant. I have definitely been negative in response to you at times, because I feel like your tone is often pretty far along on the 'my opinion is righter than others' spectrum, and that grates on me - but certainly not all the time, and I can only remember once when I was actually feeling 'hostile' about it. I'll do my best to hold off if all I'm going to post in response to you is negative.

The recurring theme I have when I post on DBO is that there is some usually pretty interesting debate, then 2-3 people come in and declare that not only is this opinion wrong, but (words to the effect of) why did you even post this? It seems to come about exclusively on topics where somebody who holds Bungie to be infallible might perceive the subject as being critical of Bungie's actions. And I'm afraid this is more or less exclusively the kind of response you write to my posts. It's an unhealthily absolutist perspective, one that I suspect others find unappealing too.

I think you might be misinterpreting the underlying reason for some of these responses. There's nothing wrong with healthy debate - but there's also nothing horribly useful with baseless criticism. I think most of the 'why did you post this' stuff shows up when someone comes in and says "I think Destiny is going to do X, and X sucks." That's not a debate point - that's just negativity for the sake of negativity. In almost every case I can think of (here), there's been no evidence that X is actually going to happen - so berating Bungie for doing it is like my wife berating me if she has a dream about me cheating on her. And the 'why did you post this' response doesn't (usually) come when someone says "hey, I hope this doesn't happen because that would be bad" - it comes when someone says "I think this is going to happen, and it will be bad."

We don't know enough about this game right now to warrant being negative about stuff like mechanics. I guess that's my point. It's not our game - it's Bungie's. We get to decide if we want to play it; we get to decide if it's worth our money. We do not get to decide how it's made. I think, and I'm speaking personally now, the thing that gets my back up the fastest is the sense of entitlement some fans seem to have - "we built you, as a company, we bought your games for X years, you HAVE to listen to us." They don't, really. They owe us nothing; they're building a title we haven't paid a penny for, yet. (Well, I suppose you could argue you've helped support it if you've bought a t-shirt or something... but Destiny is a new title, and nothing you've paid for in the past, gamewise, entitles you to anything at all out of Bungie. They could fire all their employees tomorrow, close their doors, and the only people they'd be beholden to would be Activision.)

bungie.org is a Bungie fansite. Always has been. Was started with the intention of celebrating the work of a studio its founders really appreciated. Over time, it's grown, and some of the people who frequent here aren't really fans of Bungie any more (or maybe never were) - but for the most part, we're here because we LIKE them. I certainly don't try to stifle debate (I get far more personal emails asking why X or Y wasn't banned than I do asking why I shut down the conversation about Z) - but I do sometimes feel like the people complaining the loudest about how restrictive these sites can be are the people who come in demanding their opinion be acknowledged (rather than presenting it in a way that encourages others to discuss it).

In the particular case of this discussion: I'm not really clear what you expect to discuss. You opened with "Bungie is being too secretive about Destiny's mechanics" - where are we supposed to go with that? You feel that way - some of us feel that there will be plenty of opportunity to discover what we feel we need to know before we put money down for the final product. Bungie's made it very, very clear that they understand this viewpoint exists, but that they're not going to change their marketing scheme because of it - so what's left to discuss?

I think it's fair to say we all share a love of Bungie's work, their mindset and their approach. That much is probably never going to change. But the world of games development doesn't stand still, and what was brilliance at one stage will ultimately be considered a baseline later on. Bungie staff know full well they need to continually raise the bar, but I feel like this isn't as widely understood amongst fans here. Appreciating that the future path of games will mean trying out new and different things is something all fans will need to recognise, or else forever be bitter about the 'good old days'. So rather than dismiss, how about we encourage these different viewpoints: they enrich each and every one of us.

I totally agree it'll be an interesting conversation - when we know enough to HAVE it.

How do people know if you've finished a sentence?

"Sentence"?

if can explain a lot about how disagreements form when talking online...!

Compounding the issue online is the high-latency nature of conversations. Everything has to be done in large packets of information.

When a bunch of sticking points crop up simultaneously in face-to-face chat, especially if you also have materials like pencil and paper on hand for support, the whack-a-mole is easy.

When a bunch of sticking points crop up simultaneously in forum posts, you have to answer tons of them at once in a well-structured textwall, and you can't address questions people have as they're reading.

The recurring theme I have when I post on DBO is that there is some usually pretty interesting debate, then 2-3 people come in and declare that not only is this opinion wrong, but (words to the effect of) why did you even post this? It seems to come about exclusively on topics where somebody who holds Bungie to be infallible might perceive the subject as being critical of Bungie's actions. And I'm afraid this is more or less exclusively the kind of response you write to my posts. It's an unhealthily absolutist perspective, one that I suspect others find unappealing too.

Why don't you guys chill and just let ME post those kinds of threads? I have this down by now, and I can take the criticism.

:-p

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What I've heard though is that Borderlands is more RPG-leveling than it is shooter.

I'd say yes. In that you don't necessarily need good aim to play, depending (greatly) on how you set your character up.

And more co-op than it is 'shared-world.' Is there even a PvP part?

Not anything meaningful. You can duel other players within the co-op game, but it's just a quick fight and is over as soon as someone dies. No matches, no objectives, no scores or tracking. So, not PVP multiplayer as most people would probably think of it.

One could argue (and I'm done doing that, here) that this has already been achieved; masterfully, succinctly, and in three little words:

Shared. World. Shooter.

So masterfully that we're still debating the term in this very thread.

Debating just to debate, perhaps?

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