Crowbcat, our Silent Herald of Video Game Justice, has laid the hammer down—and not for the first time—on the Halo series.

I personally love Halo 4.
I understood the problems with Halo 5, but overall was not discouraged enough to stop playing it.
I enjoyed Halo:Anniversary. Some things were trivial, but overall it was a good product.
The Master Chief Collection has some serious issues, and with each fix comes even more problems, making it as much of a chore to play as it is a pleasure.
I love the Spartan Isometric games, but I'm in the minority.
I was baffled by the Halo TV series.

But upon watching the obvious mishaps over the past eight years, compared with the footage from so, so very long ago from Bungie employees who are gone, too...I broke down in tears.

And not the good kind, either.

So… is it going to be called the Halo cycle now?

Painful to see it all laid out like that.

That line kind of stuck with me.

It reminds me of Sam Rami on Spiderman. He said something to the effect of "People already love Spiderman. But my job is to earn that even though we're given it for free".

People love Halo. Did 343 do the work to make you fall in love with Halo all over again? Or did they take that for granted?

I personally love Halo 4.
I understood the problems with Halo 5, but overall was not discouraged enough to stop playing it.
I enjoyed Halo:Anniversary. Some things were trivial, but overall it was a good product.
The Master Chief Collection has some serious issues, and with each fix comes even more problems, making it as much of a chore to play as it is a pleasure.
I love the Spartan Isometric games, but I'm in the minority.
I was baffled by the Halo TV series.

I love Halo 4 and 5. They’re fun campaigns with some pretty good encounters. The only they they never got right was vehicles.
Infinite was fine, once, but I have no desire to play it again. It sacrificed too much for the useless open world.
I don’t play enough MCC to know it’s issues, but the campaigns work well. The few nights I’ve spent playing multiplayer have been a blast. Jumping from game to game between matches is novel and really fun.
I think the TV series was good.

I won’t pretend that 343i’s Halo is as good as a Bungie’s. But they range from fine to surprisingly good. Bungie themselves haven’t put out anything even half as good as Halo since they stopped making the series, so why would I hate 343 for failing to completely live up to those games?

This guy's videos aren't healthy from a fan perspective. They're mean, and they're only purpose is to tear other people down.

For a couple of reasons.

One, the video itself is very well edited and produced. The guy has skill.

Two, there's no external commentary or narration: it's just clips laid alongside each other. Despite this, it still communicates the idea much more clearly than a hundred Here's why 343's Halo SUCKS (UPDATED OCT 2022) videos and is all the more impactful for letting you feel the message rather than comprehend it.

Too many people have thought for too long that 343's Halo can be fixed by rational analysis and implementation. Sprint needs to be gone, sprint needs a longer cooldown, there aren't enough armors, there are too many armors, the reward system needs the value of X raised and Y lowered, the H1 pistol needs to be brought back, the maps are too vertical, the maps aren't vertical enough, it's too competitive, it's too casual, etc.

Of course all the prescriptions are pointless. Their only worth is as fodder for YouTube videos and forum posts. The root cause of the decade of dissatisfaction is that 343 cannot make a good Halo game because they're not built to make a good Halo game. Halo-era-Bungie was so made: a small (ish) team of freakishly talented and preternaturally motivated engineers and artists working mostly independently (some key bits of... creative input notwithstanding) to see their child flourish.

By contrast, 343 is just another department in the giant Microsoft corporate blob and suffers from many of the defects that come from being another department in the giant Microsoft corporate blob: lack of ownership, frequent use of contractors, and institutional largesse. It was created to turn the Halo franchise into the next Star Wars and print money, not to create super slick, killer games and deliver them on schedule. And by that measure it's been a smashing success. Cry about bloom or season passes or battle passes or whatever to someone who cares.

Somewhere in the vast reaches of the internet is a small literature lovers phpBB forum of Amazon's earliest adopters, posting threads and screeds about the real problem with Amazon's current book listing UI and how things would be better if they got back to their roots and dropped the whole Amazon Web Services thing. That ship sailed, bucko.

Nothing can be done. It can't be fixed in the way you or I would like it. In that sense this video delivers just the hit I need: catharsis. Tuck me in and let me die.

(I still wouldn't be averse to periodic MCC nights)

This guy's videos aren't healthy from a fan perspective. They're mean, and they're only purpose is to tear other people down.

There is alot of "outrage bait" out there, a form of clickbait, and I do my darnedest to stay away from such dreck. Even so, I have seen this come across the tubes, but I skipped it.

Know why y'all?

I was there Gandalf, I was there 3000 years ago. Give or take. Also who's Gandalf? :P

We were there in the Golden Age. And it was (!Shock! !!BAD WORDS!!) FUCKING AWESOME!!!
The REAL LIVE GAME! The REAL "you had to be there". Moments that come and go in the social lexicon. Some had 1977-1983 Starwars. Some had the Decade of "The Infinity Saga" calumniating with Avengers: Endgame (2019). We got both, and it was called HALO. A Decade of Halo, from 2001 OG, to 2010 Reach.

NOTHING in the Aughts was as big and SO SO LONG in that brilliant shimmer of DE-LICIOUS COMPETENCE as Halo had. A decade long gaming orgasm. *I want to make an off-color joke here but I'm not going to, LOL*

Eh. With every high comes the fall, and there was no way the genie was going to go back in the bottle. 343 gave some fair tries in keeping the momentum that Bungie started, but it seems the ol' adage "Don't meet your heroes" works en-mass as well. "A studio of fans" and all.

Our "childhood" or whatever it may have been is not ruined by the mishandling of a franchise. The thing loved is still there, both out here and, if I may... in here.

Halo isn't gone. It just changed its form, like all things will ever do in time.

By contrast, 343 is just another department in the giant Microsoft corporate blob and suffers from many of the defects that come from being another department in the giant Microsoft corporate blob: lack of ownership, frequent use of contractors, and institutional largesse. It was created to turn the Halo franchise into the next Star Wars and print money, not to create super slick, killer games and deliver them on schedule. And by that measure it's been a smashing success. Cry about bloom or season passes or battle passes or whatever to someone who cares.

Yes and no. I saw a video a few weeks ago by Chris Ray Gun I think?, and he correctly pointed out that:

-Lots of people on the 343 team really love Halo.
-Halo Infinite was mechanically quite good.
-The leadership didn't know wtf they were doing

His assessment was that almost entirely down to the switch to, and inability to keep up with the live service model for games these days. Which seems reasonable; 343 have themselves said many things were cut or put on the back burner to better allocate resources, and what better place to allocate resources than the shit in the game that is actually what makes you money?

It's entirely possible that with good leadership, no free to play live service bullshit, and a lack of pressure, that something good could come out of 343.

I nailed 343’s incompetence and inability from the word go. They haven’t earned a single cent from me since MCC launched, and they never will. Every new release, DLC, expansion, etc will absolutely never trick me. MCC is great now, and anyone who loves and wants to play great Halo can and should play it. Just don’t install H4 because that game is still complete and total garbage whether stand alone or in MCC.

I don’t necessarily have problem with it being mean. Yeah, it sort of sucks when stuff is mean, but lots of valuable criticism could be seen as mean.

The bigger problem is this video does nothing. It’s not really criticism, it’s certainly not saying anything new, and I wouldn’t say it’s valuable or adds anything to the discourse.

I’ve said my fair share of mean things around here that weren’t valuable. I know what it is to feel slighted somehow by a video game I once loved. Maybe this video is the equivalent of one of those posts—a sort of fire and forget, now I feel better for having said it. But I can’t imagine spending enough time to edit a full video for seemingly no reason.

I don’t necessarily have problem with it being mean. Yeah, it sort of sucks when stuff is mean, but lots of valuable criticism could be seen as mean.

The bigger problem is this video does nothing. It’s not really criticism, it’s certainly not saying anything new, and I wouldn’t say it’s valuable or adds anything to the discourse.

I’ve said my fair share of mean things around here that weren’t valuable. I know what it is to feel slighted somehow by a video game I once loved. Maybe this video is the equivalent of one of those posts—a sort of fire and forget, now I feel better for having said it. But I can’t imagine spending enough time to edit a full video for seemingly no reason.

Criticism is as mean as you want it to be. Crowbcat wants to be mean because he's a jerk who only tears people down.

And this is coming from someone who's never touched the campaign. Yes, I hate the live-game approach to business. Yes, I am still confounded by their armor unlock/progression scheme. It's by no means a perfect game, there are warts to acknowledge and personal nitpicks I have, but Infinite is not bad.

And for the sake of argument; let's all agree there has been paltry fare in the way of any worthy story beats since Bungie was in the seat. On that front I don't expect anything worthwhile moving forward. I couldn't hang with the TV series, I facepalmed hard at Mike-Colter-as-Locke; I just don't ever expect (or even hope) for the IP to right itself story-wise.

Halo is a different animal now than 20 years ago, surely. But all the bones (and the right hearts, this I believe firmly), are still there. I'm grateful 343 pulled it back from the mess I believe H5 was.

~m

Crowbcat, our Silent Herald of Video Game Justice, has laid the hammer down—and not for the first time—on the Halo series.

I personally love Halo 4.
I understood the problems with Halo 5, but overall was not discouraged enough to stop playing it.
I enjoyed Halo:Anniversary. Some things were trivial, but overall it was a good product.
The Master Chief Collection has some serious issues, and with each fix comes even more problems, making it as much of a chore to play as it is a pleasure.
I love the Spartan Isometric games, but I'm in the minority.
I was baffled by the Halo TV series.

But upon watching the obvious mishaps over the past eight years, compared with the footage from so, so very long ago from Bungie employees who are gone, too...I broke down in tears.

And not the good kind, either.

It's a supercut of those petulant shouty complaint videos that spend more time screaming about shit they can't do anything about than anything productive.

None of these videos ever appear to have the perspective of anyone who has ever shipped a video game before.

If you want to skip the part about 343's failures, from 8:39 onward is a montage of Halo 1/2/3 nostalgia. Guaranteed tearjerker.

If you want to skip the part about 343's failures, from 8:39 onward is a montage of Halo 1/2/3 nostalgia. Guaranteed tearjerker.

Is it all set to Hoobastank's "The Reason"?

If you want to skip the part about 343's failures, from 8:39 onward is a montage of Halo 1/2/3 nostalgia. Guaranteed tearjerker.

Is it all set to Hoobastank's "The Reason"?

It's Let The Bodies Hit The Floor, but recorded with someone's flip-phone.

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If you want to skip the part about 343's failures, from 8:39 onward is a montage of Halo 1/2/3 nostalgia. Guaranteed tearjerker.

Is it all set to Hoobastank's "The Reason"?

It's Let The Bodies Hit The Floor, but recorded with someone's flip-phone.

If it's recorded with a camcorder set in front of the TV with Click Click Boom playing in the background, then I'll watch it.

I guess I'm with Anna (and Cheapley, and Kid) on this one. This video serves no real purpose; it adds nothing productive to the conversation (and really, it adds nothing AT ALL to the conversation, if we're being honest).

The last few minutes pay tribute to the original games... but ignores the negative press THOSE got at (and before) launch. And the crap in the front ignores the fact that you could make a nearly identical video about Destiny (which, to be clear, is a game I enjoy very much and have no interest in putting down), suggesting that the real issue isn't the switch to a team that isn't capable, but to an environment in which it's much, much harder to make games.

Whatever. Everyone's entitled to their opinions. Lots of folks (including folks in this very thread) are sure that 343 is incompetent, and that Halo sucks, now and forever going forward. Plenty of people disagree with that view. (I'm one of them.) Nobody's forcing anyone to continue playing, or stop playing - dump it if it's not for you, keep logging in if it is.

Mostly, though, I'm sad that there are people who continue to invest mental energy in a game that they've said, for more than a DECADE now, that they hate. There are so, so many better things to do with that energy.

If you want to skip the part about 343's failures, from 8:39 onward is a montage of Halo 1/2/3 nostalgia. Guaranteed tearjerker.

Like look, I was there at E3 for the Halo 2 reveal, I camped out for Halo releases, I threw 32 person Halo 1 parties, I got up at 4am to play Reach with my friend on the other side of the world, but you know what?

Somehow, I'm still occasionally logging into Halo Infinite and having fun. So in the context of the hissy fit the video starts with, I have no emotional connection to the rose colored take that person puts forward for Halo 1-3.

Look, I grew up with SNES RPGs and completely checked out of RPGs once they made the jump to 3D graphics cause to me, they looked like a blocky mess of nonsense that lacked the charm of Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy 6. You know what I'm absolutely NOT doing? Going to Final Fantasy forums and posting about that, I don't have TIME for that. Seriously.

- No text -

The last few minutes pay tribute to the original games... but ignores the negative press THOSE got at (and before) launch.

For perspective, go back and read reviews at the time Empire Strikes Back had premiered. They were… not nearly as glowing as how we remember the film today.

If you want to skip the part about 343's failures, from 8:39 onward is a montage of Halo 1/2/3 nostalgia. Guaranteed tearjerker.

Is it all set to Hoobastank's "The Reason"?

Weren't they Hoobustank at the time?

Look, I grew up with SNES RPGs and completely checked out of RPGs once they made the jump to 3D graphics cause to me, they looked like a blocky mess of nonsense that lacked the charm of Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy 6. You know what I'm absolutely NOT doing? Going to Final Fantasy forums and posting about that, I don't have TIME for that. Seriously.

Well guess what man? That blocky Bona Fide Masterpiece just got remade with killer graphics. Which is itself a Bona Fide Masterpiece.

Welcome to the future.

I guess I'm with Anna (and Cheapley, and Kid) on this one. This video serves no real purpose; it adds nothing productive to the conversation (and really, it adds nothing AT ALL to the conversation, if we're being honest).

Maybe you're over thinking it. It's just a fed up Halo fan venting really, and then reminiscing about the glory days. Then thousands of others are coming in and swapping stories. It doesn't really have to be any more than that.

The last few minutes pay tribute to the original games... but ignores the negative press THOSE got at (and before) launch. And the crap in the front ignores the fact that you could make a nearly identical video about Destiny (which, to be clear, is a game I enjoy very much and have no interest in putting down), suggesting that the real issue isn't the switch to a team that isn't capable, but to an environment in which it's much, much harder to make games.

To be clear, even ignoring any debate on 343, the root of most issues with AAA games these days are the ultra aggressive monetization tactics of the publishers. ($25 for what used to amount to a small title update?? My gods, it's worse than I thought) It's a business, obviously. The goal is to make money. However, recent schemes designed to squeeze as much as possible out of players have had an objectively negative impact on the quality of games.

Even if the devs are absolute gods, their hands are tied by the publisher's sole goal of making money.

Whatever. Everyone's entitled to their opinions. Lots of folks (including folks in this very thread) are sure that 343 is incompetent, and that Halo sucks, now and forever going forward. Plenty of people disagree with that view. (I'm one of them.) Nobody's forcing anyone to continue playing, or stop playing - dump it if it's not for you, keep logging in if it is.

Mostly, though, I'm sad that there are people who continue to invest mental energy in a game that they've said, for more than a DECADE now, that they hate. There are so, so many better things to do with that energy.

That's a strange way to see it. We don't hate the game. We hate what it has become, and want it to return. That shouldn't be difficult to understand. Remember New Coke? Same thing.

I also think you're severely overestimating the amount of time/mental energy we invest... What's a few occasional posts cost? My energy is devoted to posting cool stuff on HBO, you won't find anything negative from me. I'm sitting back enjoying the awakening of the Halo modding scene. I simply thought this particular video was really well done, and as it's making waves in the community at the moment, it felt appropriate to share. I wouldn't have put it on DBO personally, but Morpheus thought differently.

*Now everyone can haz Recon. (Remember the Road to Recon? How cool was that?)

The last few minutes pay tribute to the original games... but ignores the negative press THOSE got at (and before) launch.

For perspective, go back and read reviews at the time Empire Strikes Back had premiered. They were… not nearly as glowing as how we remember the film today.

But there was absolutely never anything remotely on the level of backlash that 343's games get. Not people denouncing the MS acquisition. Not Halo2sucks.com. Not people complaining about bullet spread. Not HRINC. Nothing.

That's a strange way to see it. We don't hate the game. We hate what it has become, and want it to return.

You need to understand it won't return. You will never have the same experience with a Halo game you had with Bungie's Halos. Even if 343 nails everything that made you love Halo.

Because you've changed. You already had that experience. That sense of discovery and moments of joy. You can't have them again and expect it to feel the same.

The only way to feel that again… is to move on to something new.

If we’re to judge the quality of anything by what the loudest bunch of dipshits on the internet says, literally everything ever created sucks.

That's a strange way to see it. We don't hate the game. We hate what it has become, and want it to return.

You need to understand it won't return. You will never have the same experience with a Halo game you had with Bungie's Halos. Even if 343 nails everything that made you love Halo.

That's complete nonsense. An active community, and faithful Halo gameplay are literally all it would take.

Because you've changed.

No I haven't.

You already had that experience. That sense of discovery and moments of joy. You can't have them again and expect it to feel the same.

Yes I can.

The only way to feel that again… is to move on to something new.

There is nothing else like Halo. Maybe TF2 is closest. But that's in a neglected state at the moment as well.

In Destiny, (correct me if I'm wrong, it's been a while) to unlock a specific gun/armor/whathaveyou you must complete a mission and hope you get the item you want. Which you probably won't. Then even if you do, it's unlikely to be the optimum version of what you want. Or, you can just directly purchase it.

You literally can’t directly purchase any piece of gear, save for the ornaments that are exclusive to Eververse. You can’t just go buy yourself a set of raid armor. Every gun or piece of armor has a prescribed way to get. We can debate all day about drop chance and RNG rolls, but there literally is no paying to bypass the activities to just buy the stuff you want.

I won’t sit here and pretend Bungie’s monetization is perfect, but if you’re willing to pay up front (I understand the hesitation to do so), it’s pretty fair on a yearly basis, assuming you just enjoy playing Destiny.

If we’re to judge the quality of anything by what the loudest bunch of dipshits on the internet says, literally everything ever created sucks.

Classy.

The difference is that the loudest voices then were overwhelmingly positive.

In Destiny, (correct me if I'm wrong, it's been a while) to unlock a specific gun/armor/whathaveyou you must complete a mission and hope you get the item you want. Which you probably won't. Then even if you do, it's unlikely to be the optimum version of what you want. Or, you can just directly purchase it.

You literally can’t directly purchase any piece of gear, save for the ornaments that are exclusive to Eververse. You can’t just go buy yourself a set of raid armor. Every gun or piece of armor has a prescribed way to get. We can debate all day about drop chance and RNG rolls, but there literally is no paying to bypass the activities to just buy the stuff you want.

I won’t sit here and pretend Bungie’s monetization is perfect, but if you’re willing to pay up front (I understand the hesitation to do so), it’s pretty fair on a yearly basis, assuming you just enjoy playing Destiny.

Ah thank you, I will edit it.

I just cut the entire section since it wasn't really needed.

If we’re to judge the quality of anything by what the loudest bunch of dipshits on the internet says, literally everything ever created sucks.

Classy.

The difference is that the loudest voices then were overwhelmingly positive.

The difference is that there were far fewer voices... and that there's more money in slagging something than praising it.

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The difference is that there were far fewer voices... and that there's more money in slagging something than praising it.

Were there fewer voices? I don't know about that one... Those original games sold millions and millions of copies. I could maybe see that the barrier for entry to bitch is much lower these days, if that's what you meant.

What I do know, is that the money angle you're going for would only apply to the content creators. It wouldn't account for the tens of thousands of random tweets and YT comments from nobodies.

And to be honest, I don't see how you could watch any of those videos and think those guys are hamming it up. For example Crit1kal (who just paid out 20 grand for a Halo bounty), or Chris Ray Gun, or SomeOrdinaryGamers. These guys are enraged nearly to tears as they talk about it, while simultaneously sharing their personal fond memories of the experiences they had with Halo. So while there probably are bandwagoners dogpiling the situation, I don't believe they represent the majority.

- No text -

But there was absolutely never anything remotely on the level of backlash that 343's games get. Not people denouncing the MS acquisition. Not Halo2sucks.com. Not people complaining about bullet spread. Not HRINC. Nothing.

I spent way too much time on Bungie.net back in the day, and my personal recollection is that most of the reaction to Halo 2 was negative for a variety of reasons. The different feel from Halo 1, the campaign ending, playing as the Arbiter, Matchmaking in lieu of a game list. Melee lunge, bullet magnetism (Halo 2 is noobified), the sword, SMG vs. BR starts, BXR, power weapon respawns, superbouncing, cheating, ranks, bla bla bla. It was only after Halo 3 came out that Halo 2 became a pinnacle of the series.

That being said, despite all the complaining, people kept playing, and many of those initial negative reactions were obviously wrong in retrospect. The same doesn't seem to be true of 343's Halo games, probably for many different reasons.

But there was absolutely never anything remotely on the level of backlash that 343's games get. Not people denouncing the MS acquisition. Not Halo2sucks.com. Not people complaining about bullet spread. Not HRINC. Nothing.

I spent way too much time on Bungie.net back in the day, and my personal recollection is that most of the reaction to Halo 2 was negative for a variety of reasons. The different feel from Halo 1, the campaign ending, playing as the Arbiter, Matchmaking in lieu of a game list. Melee lunge, bullet magnetism (Halo 2 is noobified), the sword, SMG vs. BR starts, BXR, power weapon respawns, superbouncing, cheating, ranks, bla bla bla. It was only after Halo 3 came out that Halo 2 became a pinnacle of the series.

That being said, despite all the complaining, people kept playing, and many of those initial negative reactions were obviously wrong in retrospect. The same doesn't seem to be true of 343's Halo games, probably for many different reasons.

A lot of what made Halo so special was how unique it was. Nothing like that had ever happened. N64 Goldeneye was the biggest game trend that had ever happened! (at least in my world). Split screen multiplayer FPS and it was a blast!

Then Halo came out. It slipped in under the radar and grew into a monster. Throw on LAN capabilities and XBConnect and it was (basically) the first online console game, and party based FPS to boot. It was THE game. It was THE moment.

With Halo 2, considering the curse of the "sophomore effort" that every creative entity has, Halo 2 was amazing. The campaign lacked but what they did for online multiplayer was the pinnacle that almost every developer trying to duplicate.

I put Halo in a category with Star Wars and The Beatles. Stand-alone, they are really good. Put compared to their peers of the time? Whoo....nothing to compare. And that's magic. Magic that only happens in that moment.

Halo is still fun, I still have a crush on MC (In fact my full mjolnir suit will be done in a couple days.) but it's not what it used to be...it can't. I felt "the magic" when I played DayZ on PC 8 years ago. Then again with Fortnite 4 years ago. Then again with Warzone 2 years ago. Now, I've not played Warzone in 3 months, and I'll never play the previous two again. But I still play Halo, for what that's worth.

Things come, things go. While Halo used to be amazingly great, it can still be "good" today. And there is nothing wrong with "good". There is a large area between Terrible and Awesome, which seems to be the only two options people consider these days.

lol, I don’t mean that personally, or even that people who don’t like modern Halo are dipshits. I mean that in a very general sense, in that any large group of people, especially on the internet, is filled with dipshits. I’m often a dipshit myself.

I think that’s the point.

Being enraged nearly to tears about a video game is one of the silliest fucking things I’ve ever heard. Just go play something else.

And I say that as someone who takes video games far too seriously. Ask Korny how much I still rant about dumb shit in Destiny and Halo and whatever else we’re playing at the time. We have the same bewildered conversation about both of those games at least once a month. So I’m in no real place to talk about wasted energy on video games. It’s a passion, and I’ll never begrudge anyone that.

I don’t know any of the people you’re talking about, but if they’re playing games professionally (either competitively for money or for youtube/twitch views), I’m super inclined to take what they say with a grain of salt and assume they’re playing it up at least a little bit, because there is money in it.

That's a strange way to see it. We don't hate the game. We hate what it has become, and want it to return.

You need to understand it won't return. You will never have the same experience with a Halo game you had with Bungie's Halos. Even if 343 nails everything that made you love Halo.

That's complete nonsense. An active community, and faithful Halo gameplay are literally all it would take.

Then why aren't you playing Infinite? From all accounts, it's faithful Halo gameplay.

Clearly that is not all it takes.

I don’t necessarily have problem with it being mean. Yeah, it sort of sucks when stuff is mean, but lots of valuable criticism could be seen as mean.

Boy do I ever disagree. Valuable to the person who enjoys being mean, maybe. Or valuable in terms of how many clicks it gets. Anger is a very engaging emotion.

I don’t necessarily have problem with it being mean. Yeah, it sort of sucks when stuff is mean, but lots of valuable criticism could be seen as mean.

Boy do I ever disagree. Valuable to the person who enjoys being mean, maybe. Or valuable in terms of how many clicks it gets. Anger is a very engaging emotion. Your construction is interesting--as if stuff is mean independently of people.

It's all he does.

Anger is valuable. Many things are worth being angry about, and it is not always bad for people to know they are the cause and target of that anger.

I mean, I guess? But Crowbcat isn't hoping to generate any worthwhile change or discourse; he's just throwing shit at the wall on Youtube because he's a terrible person.

I watched the tribute section. I didn't watch all of the kvetching. Sorry.

One thing that is kind of left out (from what I've read of this thread) is how entitled and cynical the gaming community has become (not unique to gaming communities). There was always bitching and moaning (I was here for the MS acquisition), but that burned out because people left. Now there's too much fun and profit to be gained from kvetching. Kvetching is now our effing national past time. Honestly, it's become harder to just love something. In other words, it's harder to just be a fan. Bungie.org used to be good for that. Go back and read the speculations about what was coming for the Halo releases. There's an innocence to the excitement, and not that much pissing in the punch bowl. (DBO is still better than most places, but even here naked enthusiasm doesn't float for long without some balloon popping.)

For sure, Bungie made it easy by delivering great games. They weren't perfect, though. Halo 2 was a huge letdown for me, and I wasn't alone. (Sorry, Snipe, but it was obvious they didn't finish the game.) XBL matchmaking changed the subject, and the criticism more or less died without oxygen. Bungie innovated like hell at a time when there was much room for it. Now I feel like now we're comparing solo Beatle work to the Beatles. The Beatles could not have been the Beatles if they did not exist in their time and place. Same with Halo. And it's not like Halo was getting bigger. The business was changing, and the last few Bungie Halo games did not meet expectations--there was a drop off.

Let me take this analogy further. Halo-era Bungie had something akin to the Beatles in attitude. Bungie didn't exist in response to the fans, but for themselves and what they liked and what they wanted to make. This made them great at marketing because nothing is more attractive than self-confidence. (As an aside: in a former life I had a sales trainer who said the key to good selling is this: "I've got a cookie. It's a good cookie. A lot of people will want this cookie, but some won't, and that's fine.")

Here's my criticism of 343 based on what I witnessed up close and far away. As a team they had no track record, and the stakes started high. They didn't have the confidence that comes from having a vision that could override the need to follow a blockbuster with a blockbuster. There's nothing wrong with hiring fans, but you have a be a bigger fan of what's possible than you are of what's come before. They've had a very difficult job, and I have a lot of sympathy for them, not only because I call some people at 343 friends and I know they care intensely. (Watching videos like the one above, you'd think they WANT to suck. If game development was easy, everyone would do it.) From Halofest on, though, their communication with their fans seemed a wee bit desperate, a bit too eager to please, a bit too beholden to whatever the loudest voices were. This has happened to Bungie, too, but they've handled it better most of the time. 343 has made lots of mistakes, and those have led to other mistakes, I suspect because they've spent so much energy apologizing and correcting those mistakes, or trying to. It's a difficult problem when the wheel is turning against you. I suspect they've had trouble saying (or believing) they've got the NEW cookie, and it's a good cookie, and it's okay if some people don't like it.

Halo Infinite was kind of a new cookie. It's the best thing they've done. It was FUN. It felt good. Is it 343's fault that I'm an adult with responsibilities, and Destiny takes up almost all of my gaming time? The world has changed since 2001. Gaming has changed. I've changed. I can't invest like I used to, but I will play co-op with my long-time co-op buddy Ozy, when I can. I'm sure it will be fun, but it won't be like playing campaign co-op in Halo for the first time. It can't be.

I think it's tough to be a creator--especially once an IP has become a cash cow. (Imagine the corporate pressure!) Especially with the internet constantly obsessing over your every move. You need a Kevin Feige shepherding it, and there's not many of them. (Full disclosure: the last Marvel movie I saw was the first Avengers, and I'm sure that the ones through Endgame are as good as they say, but did I mention that I've changed? As much as my 12-year-old self hates it, I just find myself caring about other things.) The environment may be tougher, but the requirements for creating something good haven't changed. You gotta have vision, you have to create something you like, you gotta stop thinking you can please everyone. Creating something good can be done, even when you've screwed up. There's No Man's Sky. It's been hard to accept that I don't enjoy Star Wars anymore (I think it's had similar problems as 343's Halos), but now there's Andor. You gotta BELIEVE.

Anger is valuable. Many things are worth being angry about, and it is not always bad for people to know they are the cause and target of that anger.

And sometimes people justify meanness by saying they're just being honest.

Much depends on what the goal is. If angry speech leads to dialogue and greater understanding, that's one thing.

There are two ways to resolve conflict: dialogue or violence. Pick one.

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Dialogue first, then violence if necessary.

Dialogue first, then violence if necessary.

One would hope, which is why I'm not eager to give up on dialogue, or to hasten its end with anger.

The same doesn't seem to be true of 343's Halo games, probably for many different reasons.

Gestures at Destiny

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No, I’m not defending this video. I think it’s dogshit. But that’s my point—me saying that is mean. But it’s the heart of it. Calling a mean-spirited video like this one dogshit is just the truth, mean or not.

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I never said anything about you defending this video.

You're also, I think, not making any sense. For one, you posting that this video is "dogshit," is not at all equivalent, because you're posting it on a forum that will not be read by a lot of people, and two, you're not saying that to expressly take other people down, or that you're a mean-spirited person.

Crowbcat, on the other hand, has shown that he's just trying to tear other people down, that he's a mean-spirited person. And you, for some reason, have decided to defend the right of people to be "mean" or to be "angry" in the context of a video from a not very nice person. I don't know why, but point taken, I guess?

Dialogue first, then violence if necessary.

There's nothing wrong with hiring fans, but you have a be a bigger fan of what's possible than you are of what's come before.

Holy shit that is absolutely a perfect and succinct truth right there.

Dialogue first, then violence if necessary.

ya better update your certs for teamschoolyd.org man. I think that's why your image won't embed.

Thanks!

Just discussion for the sake of it, I guess. I’m bored.

You said it was mean, and I agree. Maybe I’m just not a good enough person, but that it’s mean isn’t my real problem with it. I think mean criticism, while not ideal or something to be strived for, can still be valuable. If this video had something to say besides “lol, 343 sure sucks!” maybe I could ignore it being mean and try to absorb the criticism. That’s not present in this video, though, as, again, I think you’re correct—it serves only to be mean for the sake of it, so that it might be passed around by the pissed off masses that also hate 343.

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It's all he does.

I really enjoy the quiet retrospective that he brings with his videos, highlighting just how far the foot is in the mouth of whoever he’s “calling out”. Sure, there is no moral, or productive introspection to his videos other than saying “well, here we are”, but I think there is value in that. Through the narrow lens of what was, is, and could be/won’t be, one can come away from his videos with a sense of “Well, I am once again reminded of how important well-informed decisions are in regards to x thing.”

Now, I despise trolls as much as the next guy, but even I have to tip my hat to those who seize opportunity to lift the wool over our eyes by simply using a company’s own words against them, especially when those words highlight an anti-consumer hypocrisy, lies that were swept under the rug, or the disconnect between what we are promised, and what is delivered.

That said, Game Development Is Really Hard.
So it is, and so it likely will ever be.

Then why aren't you playing Infinite? From all accounts, it's faithful Halo gameplay.

Clearly that is not all it takes.

Whoever told you that is full of it. Infinite has Sprint, Clambering, Sliding etc. All the modern copy and paste mechanics taken from other games that don't work in Halo. It also features possibly the jankiest aiming I've ever experienced in a AAA shooter. I played Xbox 360 indie marketplace games with better aiming mechanics than Halo: Infinite (Murder Miners).

He points out the failures of AAA studios to live up to their promises in a very well edited, engaging, and entertaining style. That makes him an "asshole"? LOL what is wrong with you?

Your post is perfectly in line with what I said, there were always controversies and complainers. Just nothing anywhere near the scale we see today.

Dude, I've got to cut this down a bit, it's just too big a wall.

One thing kind of left out is how entitled and cynical the gaming community has become.

Fed up with corporate greed infesting everything and having a negative effect. Things like microtransactions, battle passes, the entire F2P model, Loot Boxes, etc were all the result of publishers trying to get as much money as possible, and the games have suffered for it. Video games are uniquely vulnerable to these kinds of predatory monetization schemes.

There was always bitching and moaning.

Nothing like this. Because the games were still good. They had problems, but they were fun. If you had watched the "kvetching" section of the video, you would have seen where they were called out for charging $20 for a helmet from Reach. Or $7 dollars just to make your armor red.

Honestly, it's become harder to just love something. In other words, it's harder to just be a fan.

Absolutely, but blaming other fans for not bending over and taking it isn't good for anyone. And while the publishers are certainly to blame for anything related to monetization, it's 343's fault that the story and gameplay are bad (at least the art is good now, that's something I guess).

Bungie made it easy by delivering great games. They weren't perfect [snip] the criticism more or less died without oxygen.

Yes, the games WERE great. That's why all the criticisms were drowned out by overwhelming positivity.

Bungie innovated like hell at a time when there was much room for it. The Beatles could not have been the Beatles if they did not exist in their time and place. Same with Halo. And it's not like Halo was getting bigger. The business was changing, and the last few Bungie Halo games did not meet expectations--there was a drop off.

What? Halo was getting bigger every release, in spite of increased competition, until the formula changed. We will never know how successful a true Halo would be these days, because they absolutely refuse to make one.

Let me take this analogy further. Halo-era Bungie had something akin to the Beatles in attitude. Bungie didn't exist in response to the fans, but for themselves and what they liked and what they wanted to make.

But you're missing a key element. There was little publisher interference. Outside of the launch day, Microsoft wasn't dictating the design of the games to Bungie. Nowadays, that's different.

There's nothing wrong with hiring fans...

That wasn't the problem, the problem was "We hired people who hated Halo".

I've changed. I can't invest like I used to, but I will play co-op with my long-time co-op buddy Ozy, when I can.

Sure, as long as weren't planning on playing splitscreen...

And that would be true if he wasn't an ass. But if you watch enough of his videos, you realize that he's just an ass. He's a very elaborate troll, and he's obviously very good at it, because you have people in here who are anti-anti Crowbcat, if not outright defending him.

There are better ways, and better examples, of people who "hold up a mirror to things." Defend those, not this asshole, who's obviously just around to tear people down.

The last few minutes pay tribute to the original games... but ignores the negative press THOSE got at (and before) launch.

For perspective, go back and read reviews at the time Empire Strikes Back had premiered. They were… not nearly as glowing as how we remember the film today.

But there was absolutely never anything remotely on the level of backlash that 343's games get. Not people denouncing the MS acquisition. Not Halo2sucks.com. Not people complaining about bullet spread. Not HRINC. Nothing.

I’m gonna go out on a limb and say that’s because when Halo 2 came out, there was no Twitter, no YouTube, No Reddit, and only a select few college kids could have Facebook.

He points out the failures of AAA studios to live up to their promises in a very well edited, engaging, and entertaining style. That makes him an "asshole"? LOL what is wrong with you?

My thoughts exactly. I wasn't going to say anything for a while, since a lot of the posts here indeed had very good points. Yes, the Age of Halo as we know it is long gone, and that is something that we can't control and shouldn't get upset about. And yes, it is a good point that people shouldn't get this upset(or stay this angry) about a game—or really, any specific topic—that's decades old. But Anna, you have this really, really deep aggression towards Crow....but so far, I've noticed it has no foundation. It's clear you don't like his videos, but you haven't provided any claims as to why other than "he's an asshole out to be an ass" who only "tears people down".

And that would be true if he wasn't an ass. But if you watch enough of his videos, you realize that he's just an ass. He's a very elaborate troll, and he's obviously very good at it, because you have people in here who are anti-anti Crowbcat, if not outright defending him.

There are better ways, and better examples, of people who "hold up a mirror to things." Defend those, not this asshole, who's obviously just around to tear people down.

I was going to say originally that this was coming from a strictly neutral point of view, but as I thought to what I was going to type, I realized that yeah, I guess I am defending him at this point with the effort I'm putting in. So before I start, let me just say that I don't mean any of this with malice or sarcasm, and hope to maintain civility with these arguments. Alrighty, let's go.

So first off, I'm genuinely curious—who exactly is Crowbcat tearing down? I'll admit, I haven't seen every single one of his videos, but the ones I have seen are analytically put together to prove a solid point. It's not opinionated ranting or unfounded hate—it's found footage, quite literally, of developers saying "we're going to do this", and then the results of that statement fleshed out. The main difference is that these are put together side by side without the 2-5 year wait in between thought and paper. This is shown in both negative and positive examples. It's both showing the promises they upheld and calling them out on their bullshit.

That's why I affectionately call him the Silent Herald of Video Game Justice—he delivers these powerful, emotion provoking, thought generating sagas—without saying a single word.

Earlier Insane described it as 'outrage bait', and I conceitedly agree to that. But honestly speaking...shouldn't we be?

I didn't get a Switch at the time of launch, but the way things panned out for the first wave of units, I'm glad I didn't!

It pains and shames me greatly to say that I was one of the many idiots who waited weeks upon weeks upon months for a perpetually sold out product and spend almost $200 of (at the time) minimum wage money to buy THIS. At least the Sixaxis had a badass controller name.

Having never bought Playstation, if this was in my house, making noise like THAT, I'd be calling the bomb squad in fear of my life.

Crackdown was one of my most favorite series of all time. I intentionally waited until after TH3 Beta was over before I bought a copy just so everyone knew I was buying it for the game itself. I remember how excited I was to hear that Terry Crews was going to star in 3 and how big they were going to make that game for the Xbox One.

Nope.

And finally, Infinite. Yes, the Pandemic. That is absolutely justifiable and I give it(and any other game delayed by it) a free pass, it was an unprecedented crisis. But I'm willing to bet every single Sonic game, comic and merch I own that following the trend of present day AAA's, it would've been delayed regardless even if there wasn't a single ragged cough on the globe.

And then it still wasn't enough?

Co-op campaign coming with launch—oh wait, no it's not...
Forge available this year--oh wait, no it's not...
Features that came on-disc for every single Halo game beforehand now on a "roadmap" months or even years away?

"Fans were furious about no split screen in Halo 5, so the first thing we promise with the release of our next game is split-screen co-op because we're listening®", then "split-screen is delayed" then "split screen is cancelled" and then the very same day that announcement is made someone discovers an easy replicated glitch to do it themselves?

You're all OKAY with this??

Yeah, we're getting torn down, alright. But it's not by Crowbcat.

You're all OKAY with this??

Disappointed in the communication issues, but ultimately happy with what I "bought" (I have GamePass so...). Really excited from what I've seen in the Forge videos and uhhh hoping they figure out local co-op...

That echoes my sentiment.

While I ultimately ended up disappointed in the campaign, it was a decent enough experience. The multiplayer is straight up good and fun. It’s the best Halo has ever been. It’s like they brought Halo 3 up to modern standards and pace. It’s great. Forge looks absolutely incredible. I couldn’t give two shits about split screen, and I don’t blame them for dropping it and focusing on shit that actually matters to the majority of players. I’m disappointed by the progression and battle pass stuff and how it’s been handled, but it’s not a deal breaker when the game is fun.

Dude, I've got to cut this down a bit, it's just too big a wall.

Ha! Yeah, sorry. Time was short, so the post was long.

One thing kind of left out is how entitled and cynical the gaming community has become.

Fed up with corporate greed infesting everything and having a negative effect. Things like microtransactions, battle passes, the entire F2P model, Loot Boxes, etc were all the result of publishers trying to get as much money as possible, and the games have suffered for it. Video games are uniquely vulnerable to these kinds of predatory monetization schemes.

I agree that corporate greed is a factor, and I'm against gambling generally (I think lotteries are predatory), but there are gray areas. Destiny has gotten better about loot boxes, but you should get the exotic way before 60-something raid completions (thankfully, most do). Corporations need customers, and customer expectations are part of the puzzle, and they are sky high.

There was always bitching and moaning.

Nothing like this. Because the games were still good. They had problems, but they were fun. If you had watched the "kvetching" section of the video, you would have seen where they were called out for charging $20 for a helmet from Reach. Or $7 dollars just to make your armor red.

I have watched it now. Twenty bucks does seem ridiculous for a helmet, but somebody will probably pay. Enough somebodies? I don't know. It's a fair point, and personally, I'm not bothered too much by cosmetic sales. I've bought a few things in Destiny (not so much with real money anymore), but it's worth it or not TO ME. If it's not, I stop caring. I want my black visor for Reach in MCC, and someday I'll get it, but I won't pay for it.

I'm just less bothered generally by luxuries not being worth what they're charging. I don't have to buy. IMHO, the bigger problem for 343 is overpromising--selling things that turn out to be less than expected. Which bring us back to customer expectations--we want more and more for basically the same price. Corporate greed plays into it, so does the fact that modern AAA games cost a LOT of money. The crisis affecting big budget movies is also affecting game development. Greed is a factor there, but another factor is a fickle fanbase that demands more pixels, higher frame rates, etc., and a business model that seems to demand instant responsiveness to everyone with a platform to bitch, which is, essentially, everyone.

Honestly, it's become harder to just love something. In other words, it's harder to just be a fan.

Absolutely, but blaming other fans for not bending over and taking it isn't good for anyone.

Again, if I get a value consummate to what I paid, I don't feel like I'm getting screwed.

And while the publishers are certainly to blame for anything related to monetization, it's 343's fault that the story and gameplay are bad (at least the art is good now, that's something I guess).

Yep, although I thought Halo Infinite's gameplay was pretty damn good. I understand the feeling of being betrayed in terms of story (Hi, the Last Jedi), and maybe I'm a hypocrite because I enjoyed the Halo TV series. I guess I can still imagine that Master Chief becoming the Master Chief I know, whereas I can't imagine Luke becoming who he became. I don't want to get us off track, though.

Bungie made it easy by delivering great games. They weren't perfect [snip] the criticism more or less died without oxygen.

Yes, the games WERE great. That's why all the criticisms were drowned out by overwhelming positivity.

As others have pointed out, critics had fewer outlets, and their criticisms generally weren't monetized.

Bungie innovated like hell at a time when there was much room for it. The Beatles could not have been the Beatles if they did not exist in their time and place. Same with Halo. And it's not like Halo was getting bigger. The business was changing, and the last few Bungie Halo games did not meet expectations--there was a drop off.

What? Halo was getting bigger every release, in spite of increased competition, until the formula changed. We will never know how successful a true Halo would be these days, because they absolutely refuse to make one.

Halo wasn't getting bigger in terms of engagement, and that's what the business was evolving towards. Microsoft was disappointed with Reach. I don't know about the true Halo idea. Halo was the true Halo and what made it successful was it delivered something new and better. It's tough to do that AND deliver so much of the old that the fans want at the same time. I find it interesting that you say they REFUSE to make a true Halo game, as if they don't want please their customers.

Let me take this analogy further. Halo-era Bungie had something akin to the Beatles in attitude. Bungie didn't exist in response to the fans, but for themselves and what they liked and what they wanted to make.

But you're missing a key element. There was little publisher interference. Outside of the launch day, Microsoft wasn't dictating the design of the games to Bungie. Nowadays, that's different.

If it was so different, why has Bungie broken up with Microsoft, then Activision? I honestly don't know the politics of 343 these days. I'm sure you follow the current state of things closer than I do.

There's nothing wrong with hiring fans...[but you have a be a bigger fan of what's possible than you are of what's come before.]

That wasn't the problem, the problem was "We hired people who hated Halo".

You cut out the point of that sentence. I saw that pull quote in the video, and I would like to know the context. All I can say is, reportedly, Tony Gilroy isn't a big fan of Star Wars, yet I've been more satisfied with Andor than with any Star Wars production since 1980. So I dunno. One could argue that the MCC in its current form is the best deliverable yet from the fans at 343, and what does it do? It preserves what's come before.

I've changed. I can't invest like I used to, but I will play co-op with my long-time co-op buddy Ozy, when I can.

Sure, as long as weren't planning on playing splitscreen...

Funny that. Halo wouldn't have become what it did without it, but Bungie didn't anticipate it. In this semi-post-Covid age, I will tout the superiority of physical presence all day long, and a good LAN party is a gaming experience like no other. Yet, had Bungie been able to deliver online play earlier, I think they would've, and we would've lost our freaking minds.

Gaming companies, for the most part, are full of people who love gaming, and love making games. I'm sure there are examples out there of gaming companies that were created simply to milk the public's love for video games... but I don't know of any, and I don't really care if someone points out examples, because they're a TINY MINORITY, if they exist.

The reason gaming companies (especially big ones) are so secretive is because if they say something, they're locked into that something for all time.

Because of shit like this.

Do you think that they didn't try their best to include split screen in Infinite? Do you think that they DID finish it, and then chose to tell people they didn't, and that the glitch that allows it to play proved them to be liars? Do you think there can't POSSIBLY be another explanation for its lack of inclusion in the final product... that really, all 343 was doing was lying to you?

If that's really how you see the management behind gaming companies... why not find something new to do with your free time? Why give money to people who are actively trying to fuck you over?

They (like everyone) have goals. They try their best to meet those goals... sometimes they fail. Sometimes those failures are due to an inability to get the tech to work as well as it needs to. Sometimes those failures are due to mismanagement, or overmanagement, or bean counting. Sometimes, the people actually MAKING the games are in conflict with the people supplying the money to make the games... and the gamers suffer. BUT EVEN IN THOSE CASES, the people supplying the money aren't actively trying to fuck us over... because THEN THEY DON'T GET MORE MONEY. They're just making bad decisions, and we're paying for that. And you know what? If your favorite gaming company (or the company that makes your favorite game) does this to you... you are 100% within your rights to say "I'm not paying for that any more" and walking away. It's even reasonable to complain about it... because money is money, and you bought something with an expectation, and that expectation wasn't met.

What's dumb (to me) is to not only complain that it happened... but to continue complaining, well after the point is made. And to choose NOT to walk away... but to pop up in every thread that appears, making the same point over and over and over again.

I actually find it pretty funny that three different people (two privately, one publicly) defended their comments in this thread against my last lamentation about this overcomplaining... and in actual fact it wasn't aimed at any of those three.

Here's the thing: this is a Destiny fansite. More than that, it's a BUNGIE-centric Destiny fansite. It's not a Halo fansite, and it's not a 343 fansite. (We have the first one of those... but you guys aren't ranting about this over there. [edit: apparently snipe DID bring this up over there, I just missed it.]) Yes, we're a gaming community, and yes, everyone here is allowed to talk about stuff that isn't Destiny, or isn't Bungie-related. I'm just suggesting that having this same argument a dozen times is getting tiring. What point was made in this thread that hasn't been made many times before? What new information has ANYONE brought to the table here? (Well, except for the works of Crowbcat - never heard of the guy before now, so I guess that's new. But there's nothing in HIS video that's new, so...)

I don't know. It's been a super-shitty couple of years, and my whole life seems to be about regret - regret for stuff we've lost, regret for how the world is going, regret for what's coming. I used to see this place as a little bit of a haven from that, where I could shoot the shit with a bunch of like-minded people and get away from the depressingness for a little while.

I guess there's regret that that's gone, too. :(

That wasn't the problem, the problem was "We hired people who hated Halo".

You cut out the point of that sentence. I saw that pull quote in the video, and I would like to know the context.

https://www.reddit.com/r/halo/comments/2vl26y/we_had_people_who_we_hired_who_hated_halo_because/

Gaming companies, for the most part, are full of people who love gaming, and love making games. I'm sure there are examples out there of gaming companies that were created simply to milk the public's love for video games... but I don't know of any, and I don't really care if someone points out examples, because they're a TINY MINORITY, if they exist.

The reason gaming companies (especially big ones) are so secretive is because if they say something, they're locked into that something for all time.

Because of shit like this.

Do you think that they didn't try their best to include split screen in Infinite? Do you think that they DID finish it, and then chose to tell people they didn't, and that the glitch that allows it to play proved them to be liars? Do you think there can't POSSIBLY be another explanation for its lack of inclusion in the final product... that really, all 343 was doing was lying to you?

If that's really how you see the management behind gaming companies... why not find something new to do with your free time? Why give money to people who are actively trying to fuck you over?

They (like everyone) have goals. They try their best to meet those goals... sometimes they fail. Sometimes those failures are due to an inability to get the tech to work as well as it needs to. Sometimes those failures are due to mismanagement, or overmanagement, or bean counting. Sometimes, the people actually MAKING the games are in conflict with the people supplying the money to make the games... and the gamers suffer. BUT EVEN IN THOSE CASES, the people supplying the money aren't actively trying to fuck us over... because THEN THEY DON'T GET MORE MONEY. They're just making bad decisions, and we're paying for that. And you know what? If your favorite gaming company (or the company that makes your favorite game) does this to you... you are 100% within your rights to say "I'm not paying for that any more" and walking away. It's even reasonable to complain about it... because money is money, and you bought something with an expectation, and that expectation wasn't met.

Spot on.

What's dumb (to me) is to not only complain that it happened... but to continue complaining, well after the point is made. And to choose NOT to walk away... but to pop up in every thread that appears, making the same point over and over and over again.

I actually find it pretty funny that three different people (two privately, one publicly) defended their comments in this thread against my last lamentation about this overcomplaining... and in actual fact it wasn't aimed at any of those three.

Here's the thing: this is a Destiny fansite. More than that, it's a BUNGIE-centric Destiny fansite. It's not a Halo fansite, and it's not a 343 fansite. (We have the first one of those... but you guys aren't ranting about this over there.) Yes, we're a gaming community, and yes, everyone here is allowed to talk about stuff that isn't Destiny, or isn't Bungie-related. I'm just suggesting that having this same argument a dozen times is getting tiring. What point was made in this thread that hasn't been made many times before? What new information has ANYONE brought to the table here? (Well, except for the works of Crowbcat - never heard of the guy before now, so I guess that's new. But there's nothing in HIS video that's new, so...)

I don't know. It's been a super-shitty couple of years, and my whole life seems to be about regret - regret for stuff we've lost, regret for how the world is going, regret for what's coming. I used to see this place as a little bit of a haven from that, where I could shoot the shit with a bunch of like-minded people and get away from the depressingness for a little while.

Agreed.

I guess there's regret that that's gone, too. :(

It's not completely. I mean, I hope it isn't.

That wasn't the problem, the problem was "We hired people who hated Halo".

You cut out the point of that sentence. I saw that pull quote in the video, and I would like to know the context.

https://www.reddit.com/r/halo/comments/2vl26y/we_had_people_who_we_hired_who_hated_halo_because/

As expected, the quote doesn't say what it seems to say out of context.

That wasn't the problem, the problem was "We hired people who hated Halo".

You cut out the point of that sentence. I saw that pull quote in the video, and I would like to know the context.

https://www.reddit.com/r/halo/comments/2vl26y/we_had_people_who_we_hired_who_hated_halo_because/

As expected, the quote doesn't say what it seems to say out of context.

Of course it doesn't. And if Crowbcat is as bright as everyone says he is, he knows that. But still used it, out of context, to pile on the negativity.

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If that's really how you see the management behind gaming companies... why not find something new to do with your free time? Why give money to people who are actively trying to fuck you over?

They (like everyone) have goals. They try their best to meet those goals... sometimes they fail. Sometimes those failures are due to an inability to get the tech to work as well as it needs to. Sometimes those failures are due to mismanagement, or overmanagement, or bean counting. Sometimes, the people actually MAKING the games are in conflict with the people supplying the money to make the games... and the gamers suffer. BUT EVEN IN THOSE CASES, the people supplying the money aren't actively trying to fuck us over... because THEN THEY DON'T GET MORE MONEY. They're just making bad decisions, and we're paying for that. And you know what? If your favorite gaming company (or the company that makes your favorite game) does this to you... you are 100% within your rights to say "I'm not paying for that any more" and walking away. It's even reasonable to complain about it... because money is money, and you bought something with an expectation, and that expectation wasn't met.

What's dumb (to me) is to not only complain that it happened... but to continue complaining, well after the point is made. And to choose NOT to walk away... but to pop up in every thread that appears, making the same point over and over and over again.

You're absolutely right. It's pointless to stay mad about that same issue, only to keep coming back. Nothing's stopping these people from...well, stopping! Or not starting in the first place. They need to move on.

Do you think that they didn't try their best to include split screen in Infinite? Do you think that they DID finish it, and then chose to tell people they didn't, and that the glitch that allows it to play proved them to be liars? Do you think there can't POSSIBLY be another explanation for its lack of inclusion in the final product... that really, all 343 was doing was lying to you?

I honestly don't know. All I know is, in the specific case of split-screen co-op in Infinite, a representative of a video game company told us, "We can't do it" and a random gamer told us, "We did it, here's how to do it". I don't think that 343i is willingly trying to screw us over—at least, I hope not. But I would have liked to hear an explanation on how that happened, back then.

I won’t pretend that 343i’s Halo is as good as a Bungie’s. But they range from fine to surprisingly good. Bungie themselves haven’t put out anything even half as good as Halo since they stopped making the series, so why would I hate 343 for failing to completely live up to those games?

Technically Bungie's only released two games in the past 10 years...both of which are live service games. I'm not arguing against you or anything, I'm just saying the playing field in terms of releases is pretty different.

I suppose. 343i has only put out one more game than Bungie. Two, I guess, depending on the weight you give MCC.

I guess my real thoughts are:

I think we’d be having this exact same discussion if Bungie had kept making Halo. There’s only so much you can do in a franchise over this long. Every design decision is going to piss off a subset of people. It was already happening with every Bungie Halo, it would have kept happening if they kept making those games. They either let the series stagnate or they try and mix it up—either direction pisses off large parts of the audience. 343i’s biggest problem is that they started without having fifteen years of goodwill behind them.

Obviously I can’t prove it, but I’d be willing to be that those exact same games releases under the Bungie name instead of 343 would have been better received.

I honestly don't know. All I know is, in the specific case of split-screen co-op in Infinite, a representative of a video game company told us, "We can't do it" and a random gamer told us, "We did it, here's how to do it". I don't think that 343i is willingly trying to screw us over—at least, I hope not. But I would have liked to hear an explanation on how that happened, back then.

I am no longer in any inner circle that gets to hear how the sausage is made, but I'd be willing to bet real money that the testing team found enough points of failure that the feature didn't make the cert cut. The fact that a random gamer says it works, for him and his friends, means NOTHING. It's a feature that has to work for MILLIONS of people, all the time, not tens of people, for a while.

And you can thank folks like Crowbcat for being the reason you'll never get an honest answer, unfortunately. Because I can GUARANTEE that anything that they say will eventually be included in a video, out of context, as proof that they don't know what the fuck they're doing, or that they're liars.

That’s it really. I enjoyed it a lot. Both campaign and multiplayer.

The campaign felt like a return to roots which was clearly the intent. It mainly suffered from lack of biome diversity. Otherwise the encounters were fun, the story didn’t feel pointless, and the characters didn’t feel flat (like a certain Bungie-made game I had strong opinions about). I was really satisfied with the way the Cortana plot-line came to an end. Yes, off-screen time jumps can be annoying, but it provided some mystery and, more importantly, the character arcs hit emotional notes far better than any entry in a decade. Equipment was fun to manage; the D pad combos used to deploy them quickly in battle felt like a small skill to master which was fun. For a while, exploration of the open world was very enjoyable. It delivered on something this teenager playing Halo 1 always wanted. They nailed that sense of “if I can see it, can I go there?” The only drawback is that the open world eventually felt sparse. It clearly had more potential (which you could tell they were aiming for, but didn’t have the time to complete). Anyway. If we’re going to embark on the exercise of comparing this entry with past Bungie entries, I can say hands down that this open world beats wandering around in the empty darkness waiting for Veronica Dare to call you in to actually do something.

Multiplayer is excellent. I mean that. When it works, it reminds me more of Halo 2 or 3 than any of the installments since. Desync, live service stuff, lack of content (that would normally come out of the box) and a clunky UI hold back what is actually a very strong core experience. Movement has some good depth with sliding and skill jumps. The BR feels good. Ranking is a constant sweaty prizefight (that’s good). Social playlists would probably be better off without SBMM. Despite the warts, if games played is a measure of satisfaction, Infinite ranks just after Halo 2 and 3 for me.

This isn’t to say the bad things are not bad. Forge and co-op coming a year late is brutal mismanagement. Live service seasons lasting almost a year is bad for player population. Still, there’s a lot of positive about this game. The kind of stuff I think many were singing praises about in the first few months of release. Those things haven’t really changed.

Anyway, this is all just off-the-cuff rambling with my thumbs while muted on a Teams call. The GNet group chat reminded me this place still exists and this thread was too tempting.

Bottom line: as one of the series’ harshest critics of Reach, ODST, 4 and 5, it turns out I have a lot more positive to say about Infinite than negative.

It’s a lot of fun to play and I’ll probably keep playing it.

...today is one of them.

Enjoy the Teams call!

Thanks for the write-up!

I quit only because of time, but you've inspired me to get back to it. Looks like November might be Halo month, once again.

Have they added the mission replay yet? I want to collect all the things but don't want to start a brand new campaign.

- No text -

Yup that’s fixed in the next update coming November 8

...today is one of them.

Enjoy the Teams call!

A few years ago I’d have enjoyed the billables on that call…

Anyway, yeah I feel compelled sometimes to say positive things about Infinite because a lot of the criticism seems coated in nostalgia and that just doesn’t ring true to me.

Now, criticism about actual things? Like the way live service cost us content/portions of the game at launch? Criticize away. That’s a failure of a business model in gaming. But “this game isn’t like the old ones” nah. The core of the game feels as great as ever.

First of all you seem legitimately angry or depressed and I don't like it. Have a beer, sit back, maybe turn on your favorite song, and just have a friendly little debate. We're all just fans here man, all friends in the end...

Gaming companies, for the most part, are full of people who love gaming, and love making games.

Absolutely, your average engineer or tester, designer or writer. But they aren't in charge. They're not making the big decisions.

The reason gaming companies (especially big ones) are so secretive is because if they say something, they're locked into that something for all time.

Because of shit like this.

That's just life though, if I tell my wife I'm gonna take out the trash later, she expects me to do it. Different consequences perhaps...

Do you think that they didn't try their best to include split screen in Infinite?

I don't know what to think. All I know is that they said for 5 or so years how much they regretted removing it from H5, and how they hated letting the fans down. And that going forward, all Halo games would have Splitscreen. Then they cancelled it. Then, fans glitched into it and it seemed to work great. What am I supposed to think?

If that's really how you see the management behind gaming companies... why not find something new to do with your free time? Why give money to people who are actively trying to fuck you over?

Most of my free time is spent on indie games or MCC, love it. The last time they got any of my money was Halo 4's launch. After that I received codes for all H4 DLC, Spartan Assault, MCC, and H5 as thanks for my volunteer work as a Community Cartographer. Beyond that, I played their other stuff through Gamepass.

They (like everyone) have goals... [snip snip snip] ...BUT EVEN IN THOSE CASES, the people supplying the money aren't actively trying to fuck us over... because THEN THEY DON'T GET MORE MONEY.

I don't think the execs or studio heads are comically twirling their mustaches thinking up new ways to screw people over, I think they're mostly oblivious or indifferent to player sentiment. It is their job to expand profits, and these current trends have been hugely successful at that.

What's dumb (to me) is to not only complain that it happened... but to continue complaining, well after the point is made. And to choose NOT to walk away... but to pop up in every thread that appears, making the same point over and over and over again.

I actually find it pretty funny that three different people (two privately, one publicly) defended their comments in this thread against my last lamentation about this overcomplaining... and in actual fact it wasn't aimed at any of those three.

I always assume you're directing it at me, owing to something you said that stuck with me a while back. I was playing Destiny with TDSpiral and we randomly ran into you on the Tower. "Oh cool, it's Wu. Let's party up." So we did and the first thing you say is "Oh here comes Mr. Negative". I didn't say anything but it did kinda piss me off at the time. I'm the class clown type of dude. I like to make people laugh. Now, I realize you probably didn't mean anything by it, and you were friendly afterwards, but it's a large part of the reason I stopped playing D1. Didn't want to run into you honestly. So that's why I get defensive.

Here's the thing: this is a Destiny fansite. More than that, it's a BUNGIE-centric Destiny fansite. It's not a Halo fansite, and it's not a 343 fansite. (We have the first one of those... but you guys aren't ranting about this over there.

Like I said, I wouldn't have posted it here... but I mean you can plainly see the vast difference in engagement. I can kinda understand why Morph would choose DBO over HBO.

I'm just suggesting that having this same argument a dozen times is getting tiring. What point was made in this thread that hasn't been made many times before? What new information has ANYONE brought to the table here?

Well for me I just wanted to share the popular new Halo vid (on HBO lol). Wasn't really looking for any more than that, but I do quite enjoy these little debates.

I don't know. It's been a super-shitty couple of years, and my whole life seems to be about regret - regret for stuff we've lost, regret for how the world is going, regret for what's coming. I used to see this place as a little bit of a haven from that, where I could shoot the shit with a bunch of like-minded people and get away from the depressingness for a little while.

I guess there's regret that that's gone, too. :(

Dude come on, no it's not. To throw your own logic back at'cha, if threads like this make you feel that way, ignore 'em. There's plenty of positive stuff going on here, maybe you want to catch up with Newman, or discuss the new Star Wars show. You could get spooky, or even express your hopes for the next expansion. Isn't this exciting...

Point is, focus on what makes you happy and you'll be happier. Take it from me...

- Mr. Happy

I used to see this place as a little bit of a haven from that, where I could shoot the shit with a bunch of like-minded people and get away from the depressingness for a little while.

I guess there's regret that that's gone, too. :(

Dude come on, no it's not. To throw your own logic back at'cha, if threads like this make you feel that way, ignore 'em.

Yeah, see... I can't, really. I tried that for a while. (It's possible nobody noticed, and that's okay - but it didn't change anything anyway.)

I run this place. And when it gets filled up with negativity like this, I hear about it, privately. I CAN'T ignore it, not without being rude to people I like.

So you might think it's just a nice quiet conversation, and maybe you didn't participate in the last 10 or 15 go-rounds (never mind, I'm sure you did in some of them)... but it bothers people, and makes this place less welcoming when it happens, and makes people who WANT to spend time in happier threads less interested in being here. And that might even be okay, if it weren't the same damn conversation every single fucking time. :(

Edit: I'm really sorry I chased you away from Destiny. That absolutely wasn't my intention, I don't even remember the incident, and I'm genuinely regretful it happened.

I honestly don't know. All I know is, in the specific case of split-screen co-op in Infinite, a representative of a video game company told us, "We can't do it" and a random gamer told us, "We did it, here's how to do it". I don't think that 343i is willingly trying to screw us over—at least, I hope not. But I would have liked to hear an explanation on how that happened, back then.

I am no longer in any inner circle that gets to hear how the sausage is made, but I'd be willing to bet real money that the testing team found enough points of failure that the feature didn't make the cert cut. The fact that a random gamer says it works, for him and his friends, means NOTHING. It's a feature that has to work for MILLIONS of people, all the time, not tens of people, for a while.

Just look at the digital foundry video where they run through in split screen using the glitch. There are tons of issues that they encountered, from graphical to game breaking. So, it's simply not ready. It needed more time to iron that stuff out. Just because you can do it doesn't mean it works flawlessly yet.

Yeah, see... I can't, really. I tried that for a while. (It's possible nobody noticed, and that's okay - but it didn't change anything anyway.)

I run this place. And when it gets filled up with negativity like this, I hear about it, privately. I CAN'T ignore it, not without being rude to people I like.

True, I hadn't fully considered that angle. Maybe just tell people that it's a Destiny site, and they have to talk about Halo on HBO. Inelegant perhaps, but if it's really stressing you out like that then maybe that's the call.

So you might think it's just a nice quiet conversation, and maybe you didn't participate in the last 10 or 15 go-rounds (never mind, I'm sure you did in some of them)... but it bothers people, and makes this place less welcoming when it happens, and makes people who WANT to spend time in happier threads less interested in being here. And that might even be okay, if it weren't the same damn conversation every single fucking time. :(

I suppose I'd have the same suggestion for them. Just ignore it. I just ignore anything I don't like, or don't care about. :/

Everyone's different but, just doesn't seem healthy to spend time reading something that bothers you that much. Or sitting here debating when you don't enjoy debating. Nobody is forcing you to participate. Probably. Hopefully...

Edit: I'm really sorry I chased you away from Destiny. That absolutely wasn't my intention, I don't even remember the incident, and I'm genuinely regretful it happened.

Bah, humbug! Don't sweat it, I shouldn't have even mentioned it. That was like 6 years ago. Just one of those weird little things.

I’m gonna go out on a limb and say that’s because when Halo 2 came out, there was no Twitter, no YouTube, No Reddit, and only a select few college kids could have Facebook.

We had no shortage of forums (bungie.net, HBO, gamefaqs). We had MySpace. Digg was a thing. YouTube launched in 05. Facebook, Reddit, and Twitter arose in the H2 era. They were prominent in the H3 era.

Basically, I don't buy it.

For a while, exploration of the open world was very enjoyable. It delivered on something this teenager playing Halo 1 always wanted. They nailed that sense of “if I can see it, can I go there?”

Captures exactly how I feel about the campaign. I've said that this is the game that the Macworld trailer promised.

I’m gonna go out on a limb and say that’s because when Halo 2 came out, there was no Twitter, no YouTube, No Reddit, and only a select few college kids could have Facebook.

We had no shortage of forums (bungie.net, HBO, gamefaqs). We had MySpace. Digg was a thing. YouTube launched in 05. Facebook, Reddit, and Twitter arose in the H2 era. They were prominent in the H3 era.

Basically, I don't buy it.

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of the internet and the impact of social media.

I don't know what to think. All I know is that they said for 5 or so years how much they regretted removing it from H5, and how they hated letting the fans down. And that going forward, all Halo games would have Splitscreen. Then they cancelled it. Then, fans glitched into it and it seemed to work great. What am I supposed to think?

It didn't exactly "work great"

For a while, exploration of the open world was very enjoyable. It delivered on something this teenager playing Halo 1 always wanted. They nailed that sense of “if I can see it, can I go there?”

You should try Death Stranding!

I suppose I'd have the same suggestion for them. Just ignore it. I just ignore anything I don't like, or don't care about. :/

I don't want to speak for Claude, but my perspective is this comment is suggesting that he ignore the the place he built occasionally becoming mired in obnoxious negativity.

"Ignore the people who you invited into your house complaining loudly that the new pizza place makes terrible pizza and are only out to make a buck. And yeah, you didn't even order pizza from that place..." Yeah, nah.

For a while, exploration of the open world was very enjoyable. It delivered on something this teenager playing Halo 1 always wanted. They nailed that sense of “if I can see it, can I go there?”

You should try Death Stranding!

I’m so eager to get back to it this weekend! That game is really something special.

For a while, exploration of the open world was very enjoyable. It delivered on something this teenager playing Halo 1 always wanted. They nailed that sense of “if I can see it, can I go there?”

You should try Death Stranding!

I’m so eager to get back to it this weekend! That game is really something special.

I agree that corporate greed is a factor... [snip] ...there are gray areas. Destiny has gotten better about loot boxes, but you should get the exotic way before 60-something raid completions (thankfully, most do).

Dude that's just, so lame. You should just have a clear path to whatever goal. I wrote this in an earlier post, but deleted it as it wasn't actually necessary. Let's look at Halo 3 vs. Destiny.

In H3, to unlock specific armor there's a clear path to getting each one*. If you see someone with a Katana in H3 MM, you know they got the original 1000 Gamerscore for the game. You want a Katana too? You know exactly how to get it. They rewarded the player for playing.

In Destiny, (correct me if I'm wrong, it's been a while) to unlock a specific gun/armor/whathaveyou you complete a mission and hope you get the item you want. Which you probably won't. Then even if you do, it's unlikely to be the optimum version of what you want. So you have to do it again. And again. You're incentivized to grind to get the thing you want, so that you can finally play the game the way you want. And then you have to store those weapons in your vault which has limited space, so you have to pick and choose what gets to stay.

Wouldn't it be better if it were a little more like Halo 3? What if for example, you complete the new Raid and that unlocks this sweet new gun. Then to get the perfect stats on it, instead of having to grind the Raid over and over you simply have to play with the gun, however you want! Just get kills to earn XP for it. Maybe get (X) headshots and that unlocks a new skin, or what if you could get a rare skin for landing the final blow on a boss with the weapon. And instead of having a vault where you store all your random stuff, you simply have a weapons locker with all of your unlocked weapons available at any time. Same for Armor. The point being, everything would be unlockable in-game without extra spending, and with a fun, engaging challenge tied to it.

Wouldn't THAT Destiny be better? A Destiny where you play what you want, when you want? No slot machine. But it wouldn't make as much money.

*Now everyone can haz Recon. (Remember the Road to Recon? How cool was that?)

I'm not bothered too much by cosmetic sales. I've bought a few things in Destiny (not so much with real money anymore), but it's worth it or not TO ME. If it's not, I stop caring. I want my black visor for Reach in MCC, and someday I'll get it, but I won't pay for it.

Not the point. These things used to be unlockable through in-game means that were fun and engaging. That used to be the player investment system. Playing for fun, to get cool stuff. The players were robbed of that, in favor of making more money. The games are objectively worse for that, but they accomplished their goal. They make more money.

(Also, just get your MCC Campaign challenges every week. Only takes a few hours altogether and you can unlock all original Reach armor with just 100 points. So about 8 weeks, or less depending on how far you already are. I think the black visor is somewhere around the halfway point.)

IMHO, the bigger problem for 343 is overpromising--selling things that turn out to be less than expected. Which brings us back to customer expectations--we want more and more for basically the same price.

We were conditioned by Bungie to expect every sequel to give us more and more lol. From 1 to Reach, every game expanded the franchise's featureset exponentially. To this day, Reach has the single greatest featureset of any console game ever. It came out 12 years ago.

Corporate greed plays into it, so does the fact that modern AAA games cost a LOT of money. The crisis affecting big budget movies is also affecting game development. Greed is a factor there, but another factor is a fickle fanbase that demands more pixels, higher frame rates, etc., and a business model that seems to demand instant responsiveness to everyone with a platform to bitch, which is, essentially, everyone.

The answer is improving the tools used to create games. Automating as much as possible. They're getting there.

As others have pointed out, critics had fewer outlets, and their criticisms generally weren't monetized.

See here.

Halo wasn't getting bigger in terms of engagement, and that's what the business was evolving towards. Microsoft was disappointed with Reach.

I have no idea what you mean by this. Halo was thriving. There were so many communities, and sub communities within doing incredible things from art to machinima. From obstacle courses to puzzle maps, competitive to casual. We had Grifball, and Forgehub, and so much more. I'd hit the character limit if I tried to list them all.

Maybe MS should have used the same God-tier marketing they had for Halo 3 if they wanted more sales.

I don't know about the true Halo idea. Halo was the true Halo and what made it successful was it delivered something new and better. It's tough to do that AND deliver so much of the old that the fans want at the same time.

But Bungie did it multiple times.

I find it interesting that you say they REFUSE to make a true Halo game, as if they don't want please their customers.

I have no idea what they want. Almost everything people complained about in H4, they doubled down on in H5, and were shocked when people hated it. Then Infinite was a weird hybrid that was a good step in the right direction, but still fell way short of expectations. Who knows?

If it was so different, why has Bungie broken up with Microsoft, then Activision?

MS wanted them to be the Halo studio, and Bungie wanted to work on other IP. So they traded Halo for their freedom.

Activision was because of the corporate greed stuff we were talking about. They seemed to think of Bungie as "Activision Seattle".

Funny that. Halo wouldn't have become what it did without it, but Bungie didn't anticipate it. In this semi-post-Covid age, I will tout the superiority of physical presence all day long, and a good LAN party is a gaming experience like no other. Yet, had Bungie been able to deliver online play earlier, I think they would've, and we would've lost our freaking minds.

Destiny would also benefit greatly from splitscreen. And Theater. Forge. Custom games. Fileshare. Screenshots. And so on.

I agree that corporate greed is a factor... [snip] ...there are gray areas. Destiny has gotten better about loot boxes, but you should get the exotic way before 60-something raid completions (thankfully, most do).

Dude that's just, so lame. You should just have a clear path to whatever goal. I wrote this in an earlier post, but deleted it as it wasn't actually necessary. Let's look at Halo 3 vs. Destiny.

In H3, to unlock specific armor there's a clear path to getting each one*. If you see someone with a Katana in H3 MM, you know they got the original 1000 Gamerscore for the game. You want a Katana too? You know exactly how to get it. They rewarded the player for playing.

In Destiny, (correct me if I'm wrong, it's been a while) to unlock a specific gun/armor/whathaveyou you complete a mission and hope you get the item you want. Which you probably won't. Then even if you do, it's unlikely to be the optimum version of what you want. So you have to do it again. And again. You're incentivized to grind to get the thing you want, so that you can finally play the game the way you want. And then you have to store those weapons in your vault which has limited space, so you have to pick and choose what gets to stay.

Wouldn't it be better if it were a little more like Halo 3? What if for example, you complete the new Raid and that unlocks this sweet new gun. Then to get the perfect stats on it, instead of having to grind the Raid over and over you simply have to play with the gun, however you want! Just get kills to earn XP for it. Maybe get (X) headshots and that unlocks a new skin, or what if you could get a rare skin for landing the final blow on a boss with the weapon. And instead of having a vault where you store all your random stuff, you simply have a weapons locker with all of your unlocked weapons available at any time. Same for Armor. The point being, everything would be unlockable in-game without extra spending, and with a fun, engaging challenge tied to it.

Wouldn't THAT Destiny be better? A Destiny where you play what you want, when you want? No slot machine. But it wouldn't make as much money.

I hard agree on your thoughts of acquisition in Destiny. If it's an RNG raid weapon, it might as well not exist to me. I run raids for the camaraderie and don't chase any of that nonsense.

*Now everyone can haz Recon. (Remember the Road to Recon? How cool was that?)

I'm not bothered too much by cosmetic sales. I've bought a few things in Destiny (not so much with real money anymore), but it's worth it or not TO ME. If it's not, I stop caring. I want my black visor for Reach in MCC, and someday I'll get it, but I won't pay for it.

Not the point. These things used to be unlockable through in-game means that were fun and engaging. That used to be the player investment system. Playing for fun, to get cool stuff. The players were robbed of that, in favor of making more money. The games are objectively worse for that, but they accomplished their goal. They make more money.

(Also, just get your MCC Campaign challenges every week. Only takes a few hours altogether and you can unlock all original Reach armor with just 100 points. So about 8 weeks, or less depending on how far you already are. I think the black visor is somewhere around the halfway point.)

IMHO, the bigger problem for 343 is overpromising--selling things that turn out to be less than expected. Which brings us back to customer expectations--we want more and more for basically the same price.

We were conditioned by Bungie to expect every sequel to give us more and more lol. From 1 to Reach, every game expanded the franchise's featureset exponentially. To this day, Reach has the single greatest featureset of any console game ever. It came out 12 years ago.

Corporate greed plays into it, so does the fact that modern AAA games cost a LOT of money. The crisis affecting big budget movies is also affecting game development. Greed is a factor there, but another factor is a fickle fanbase that demands more pixels, higher frame rates, etc., and a business model that seems to demand instant responsiveness to everyone with a platform to bitch, which is, essentially, everyone.

The answer is improving the tools used to create games. Automating as much as possible. They're getting there.

What in the hell are you talking about.

As others have pointed out, critics had fewer outlets, and their criticisms generally weren't monetized.

See here.

Halo wasn't getting bigger in terms of engagement, and that's what the business was evolving towards. Microsoft was disappointed with Reach.

I have no idea what you mean by this. Halo was thriving. There were so many communities, and sub communities within doing incredible things from art to machinima. From obstacle courses to puzzle maps, competitive to casual. We had Grifball, and Forgehub, and so much more. I'd hit the character limit if I tried to list them all.

Maybe MS should have used the same God-tier marketing they had for Halo 3 if they wanted more sales.

I don't know about the true Halo idea. Halo was the true Halo and what made it successful was it delivered something new and better. It's tough to do that AND deliver so much of the old that the fans want at the same time.

But Bungie did it multiple times.

I find it interesting that you say they REFUSE to make a true Halo game, as if they don't want please their customers.

I have no idea what they want. Almost everything people complained about in H4, they doubled down on in H5, and were shocked when people hated it. Then Infinite was a weird hybrid that was a good step in the right direction, but still fell way short of expectations. Who knows?

I'm so g'damn confused here. H5 tightened up the combat and brought it much closer to OG Halo than Halo 4, it's weapons, and better covenant enemies(Useless spartan teams not withstanding). It had huge memorable set pieces (fighting your way into the sangheili city, warping to the guardian and sliding down it) and I've played the campaign multiple times cause I just overall liked the general feel of it. Also the Halo 5 MP was TIGHT, at a time where Destiny was 30fps as well as other big shooters, Halo 5 was a crisp 60 fps and felt snappy.

If it was so different, why has Bungie broken up with Microsoft, then Activision?

MS wanted them to be the Halo studio, and Bungie wanted to work on other IP. So they traded Halo for their freedom.

Activision was because of the corporate greed stuff we were talking about. They seemed to think of Bungie as "Activision Seattle".

Funny that. Halo wouldn't have become what it did without it, but Bungie didn't anticipate it. In this semi-post-Covid age, I will tout the superiority of physical presence all day long, and a good LAN party is a gaming experience like no other. Yet, had Bungie been able to deliver online play earlier, I think they would've, and we would've lost our freaking minds.

Destiny would also benefit greatly from splitscreen. And Theater. Forge. Custom games. Fileshare. Screenshots. And so on.

In Destiny, (correct me if I'm wrong, it's been a while) to unlock a specific gun/armor/whathaveyou you complete a mission and hope you get the item you want. Which you probably won't. Then even if you do, it's unlikely to be the optimum version of what you want. So you have to do it again. And again.

In Destiny, (correct me if I'm wrong, it's been a while) to unlock a specific gun/armor/whathaveyou you complete a mission and hope you get the item you want. Which you probably won't. Then even if you do, it's unlikely to be the optimum version of what you want. So you have to do it again. And again.

It's a funny example since that one in D2, you could run a mission to get without fuckery.

(Also, just get your MCC Campaign challenges every week. Only takes a few hours altogether and you can unlock all original Reach armor with just 100 points. So about 8 weeks, or less depending on how far you already are. I think the black visor is somewhere around the halfway point.)

Lol. The irony of you saying this in the context of your other argument is the funniest thing I’ve seen in a while.

Can’t raid multiple times for a gun, but make sure to do your challenges for 8 weeks to get a black visor!

(Also, just get your MCC Campaign challenges every week. Only takes a few hours altogether and you can unlock all original Reach armor with just 100 points. So about 8 weeks, or less depending on how far you already are. I think the black visor is somewhere around the halfway point.)

Lol. The irony of you saying this in the context of your other argument is the funniest thing I’ve seen in a while.

Can’t raid multiple times for a gun, but make sure to do your challenges for 8 weeks to get a black visor!

Spoiler: The raids are massively more fun than doing challenges.

(Also, just get your MCC Campaign challenges every week. Only takes a few hours altogether and you can unlock all original Reach armor with just 100 points. So about 8 weeks, or less depending on how far you already are. I think the black visor is somewhere around the halfway point.)

Lol. The irony of you saying this in the context of your other argument is the funniest thing I’ve seen in a while.

Can’t raid multiple times for a gun, but make sure to do your challenges for 8 weeks to get a black visor!

Spoiler: The raids are massively more fun than doing challenges.

Those challenges are doing something you enjoy doing more than raiding.

Wouldn't it be better if it were a little more like Halo 3? What if for example, you complete the new Raid and that unlocks this sweet new gun. Then to get the perfect stats on it, instead of having to grind the Raid over and over you simply have to play with the gun, however you want! Just get kills to earn XP for it. Maybe get (X) headshots and that unlocks a new skin, or what if you could get a rare skin for landing the final blow on a boss with the weapon. And instead of having a vault where you store all your random stuff, you simply have a weapons locker with all of your unlocked weapons available at any time. Same for Armor. The point being, everything would be unlockable in-game without extra spending, and with a fun, engaging challenge tied to it.

Wouldn't THAT Destiny be better? A Destiny where you play what you want, when you want? No slot machine. But it wouldn't make as much money.

And people didn't like it.

(Also, just get your MCC Campaign challenges every week. Only takes a few hours altogether and you can unlock all original Reach armor with just 100 points. So about 8 weeks, or less depending on how far you already are. I think the black visor is somewhere around the halfway point.)

Lol. The irony of you saying this in the context of your other argument is the funniest thing I’ve seen in a while.

Can’t raid multiple times for a gun, but make sure to do your challenges for 8 weeks to get a black visor!

There's no irony present at all. I never once suggested it was a good or fun system, I simply explained the best way to get the black visor. It would be much cooler if you had to beat the par time on Nightfall Legendary (as a quick idea).

The only things in MCC tied to specific challenges like that are the nameplates and avatars.

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of the internet and the impact of social media.

Oh, by all means, enlighten me. I cannot wait to hear your expertise.

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You have a fundamental misunderstanding of the internet and the impact of social media.

Oh, by all means, enlighten me. I cannot wait to hear your expertise.

Well you're saying that we had Digg, Reddit, Myspace, and Twitter during the OG trilogy and while those had launched, they (the ones that survived) weren't the beasts they are today. It's hard to get hard numbers on the daily active users of each of those services but the audience size/tenor drastically changed between then and now.

And yeah Youtube existed, but streamers and shouty angry channels weren't really a thing back then.

Like I don't know what to tell you, it's blatantly obvious at a glance that regardless of what people were saying on the internet, social media in the last decade got louder and noisier. Want me to link you to some articles? Source some Active Daily User numbers? Want me to find papers on the psychological impact of social media?

Yes, people obnoxiously complaining about something existed well before the internet, the internet just has more and more over the years exacerbated that issue, like it does for many others.

Indeed, social media sites existed but were populated by the people using the internet at the time. Internet use was one the rise, especially by the young, but not all of the young were necessarily tech savvy. With smartphones, the internet ballooned, and the culture began to change at a rate proportional to its growth. How people behaved and who tolerated that behavior and where is an unrecognizable landscape compared to the one of today. Then you have to consider that how people feel is now influenced in a very different way, which leads to different behaviors, and back-and-forth they go.

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It didn't exactly "work great"

I take it you didn't actually watch the video in question.

Excluding a few minor visual glitches, it worked pretty great. Even on the launch model XB1.

Around the 14 minute mark, they say they have no idea why it was cancelled as it's nearly in a finished state.

Can you try not being mean? Man, if this forum had an ignore feature, I would've blocked you for that.

Can you try not being mean? Man, if this forum had an ignore feature, I would've blocked you for that.

I... feel like I'm being trolled. Wait a minute... Fanella?

Want me to link you to some articles? Source some Active Daily User numbers? Want me to find papers on the psychological impact of social media?

No, don't waste your time because on further thought it's irrelevant to the original statement.
That being (though not laid out as clearly as it should have been) yes there were complaints online, but sentiment for the games was still overwhelmingly positive, regardless of where it took place. Like, percentage-wise.

Yes, people obnoxiously complaining about something existed well before the internet, the internet just has more and more over the years exacerbated that issue, like it does for many others.

I just think people were happier then because things were better. It doesn't have to be more complicated than that.

And I apologize for my sarcastic tone earlier. I had a long day and your message seemed aggressive, but on re-reading it I don't get that now.

It didn't exactly "work great"

I take it you didn't actually watch the video in question.

Excluding a few minor visual glitches, it worked pretty great. Even on the launch model XB1.

Around the 14 minute mark, they say they have no idea why it was cancelled as it's nearly in a finished state.

Did you also miss the part where the second player spawned in the ceiling, and they had to save and quit to work around it? And I wouldn't call the graphical glitches 'minor'.

Can you try not being mean? Man, if this forum had an ignore feature, I would've blocked you for that.

Wait, what? You opined that this content creator is an "asshole" (still haven't told us why), Snipe disagreed and essentially also asked why, though a little more directly. How is that "being mean"?

That being (though not laid out as clearly as it should have been) yes there were complaints online, but sentiment for the games was still overwhelmingly positive, regardless of where it took place. Like, percentage-wise.

As I said previously, this does not match my perception of the time. I would have described the contemporaneous response to Halo 2 in terms of online discourse as initially majority negative.

That being (though not laid out as clearly as it should have been) yes there were complaints online, but sentiment for the games was still overwhelmingly positive, regardless of where it took place. Like, percentage-wise.

As I said previously, this does not match my perception of the time. I would have described the contemporaneous response to Halo 2 in terms of online discourse as initially majority negative.

I remember people just melting down because Bungie used parts of Single player levels for all of the multiplayer levels in Reach.

Want me to link you to some articles? Source some Active Daily User numbers? Want me to find papers on the psychological impact of social media?

No, don't waste your time because on further thought it's irrelevant to the original statement.
That being (though not laid out as clearly as it should have been) yes there were complaints online, but sentiment for the games was still overwhelmingly positive, regardless of where it took place. Like, percentage-wise.

Yes, people obnoxiously complaining about something existed well before the internet, the internet just has more and more over the years exacerbated that issue, like it does for many others.

I just think people were happier then because things were better. It doesn't have to be more complicated than that.

And I apologize for my sarcastic tone earlier. I had a long day and your message seemed aggressive, but on re-reading it I don't get that now.

The point being made is that the complaints were contained to fewer places as the larger spaces that were forming on the internet were not yet so toxic. The level of toxicity in the spaces that allowed it was pretty intense, it just didn't leak out onto all of the general hubs.

You had to seek out the negativity more actively than today, so it was easier to miss. Now, it finds you in public, no matter which major space you are in.

And even if my take is perhaps not perfectly accurate, especially because it lacks nuance, maybe this is the simplest way I can say it:

That positivity (about Halo 2, for example) was more visible has a lot more to do with the state of the internet and the state of gaming than you give it credit for; it was not for lack of flaws worth criticizing.

Want me to link you to some articles? Source some Active Daily User numbers? Want me to find papers on the psychological impact of social media?

No, don't waste your time because on further thought it's irrelevant to the original statement.
That being (though not laid out as clearly as it should have been) yes there were complaints online, but sentiment for the games was still overwhelmingly positive, regardless of where it took place. Like, percentage-wise.

Yes, people obnoxiously complaining about something existed well before the internet, the internet just has more and more over the years exacerbated that issue, like it does for many others.

I just think people were happier then because things were better. It doesn't have to be more complicated than that.

And I apologize for my sarcastic tone earlier. I had a long day and your message seemed aggressive, but on re-reading it I don't get that now.

The point being made is that the complaints were contained to fewer places as the larger spaces that were forming on the internet were not yet so toxic. The level of toxicity in the spaces that allowed it was pretty intense, it just didn't leak out onto all of the general hubs.

You had to seek out the negativity more actively than today, so it was easier to miss. Now, it finds you in public, no matter which major space you are in.

And even if my take is perhaps not perfectly accurate, especially because it lacks nuance, maybe this is the simplest way I can say it:

That positivity (about Halo 2, for example) was more visible has a lot more to do with the state of the internet and the state of gaming than you give it credit for; it was not for lack of flaws worth criticizing.

This is obviously conjecture but I just assume Halo 2 dropping today would have had whole video series about how Dual Wielding is RUINING HALO and that Bungie was short changing people by not even FINISHING the campaign...

Want me to link you to some articles? Source some Active Daily User numbers? Want me to find papers on the psychological impact of social media?

No, don't waste your time because on further thought it's irrelevant to the original statement.
That being (though not laid out as clearly as it should have been) yes there were complaints online, but sentiment for the games was still overwhelmingly positive, regardless of where it took place. Like, percentage-wise.

Yes, people obnoxiously complaining about something existed well before the internet, the internet just has more and more over the years exacerbated that issue, like it does for many others.

I just think people were happier then because things were better. It doesn't have to be more complicated than that.

And I apologize for my sarcastic tone earlier. I had a long day and your message seemed aggressive, but on re-reading it I don't get that now.

The point being made is that the complaints were contained to fewer places as the larger spaces that were forming on the internet were not yet so toxic. The level of toxicity in the spaces that allowed it was pretty intense, it just didn't leak out onto all of the general hubs.

You had to seek out the negativity more actively than today, so it was easier to miss. Now, it finds you in public, no matter which major space you are in.

And even if my take is perhaps not perfectly accurate, especially because it lacks nuance, maybe this is the simplest way I can say it:

That positivity (about Halo 2, for example) was more visible has a lot more to do with the state of the internet and the state of gaming than you give it credit for; it was not for lack of flaws worth criticizing.

This is obviously conjecture but I just assume Halo 2 dropping today would have had whole video series about how Dual Wielding is RUINING HALO and that Bungie was short changing people by not even FINISHING the campaign...

I agree with you 100%. Additionally, you remember how people reacted to Locke? Yeah, people had the same reaction to Arbiter back in the day.

Those exact complaints were prevalent everywhere Halo 2 was discussed, there just wasn’t any money in making hour long youtube videos about it yet.

And I apologize for my sarcastic tone earlier. I had a long day and your message seemed aggressive, but on re-reading it I don't get that now.

Fair, what I said was pretty acerbic so I'm sorry for not managing my own tenor.

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Can you try not being mean? Man, if this forum had an ignore feature, I would've blocked you for that.

Wait, what? You opined that this content creator is an "asshole" (still haven't told us why), Snipe disagreed and essentially also asked why, though a little more directly. How is that "being mean"?

Saying “what is wrong with you” is not only dismissive, but straight up implies that her line of thinking comes from some mental/ideological fault, saying that her opinion is not only indefensible, but absurd. That’s weirdly aggressive (and something something false consensus bias).

As someone who strives to make sure everyone feels respected in a disagreement, Snipe’s reply did come off as needlessly mean-spirited at the end. It’s disappointing, so do better.

It didn't exactly "work great"

I take it you didn't actually watch the video in question.

Excluding a few minor visual glitches, it worked pretty great. Even on the launch model XB1.

Around the 14 minute mark, they say they have no idea why it was cancelled as it's nearly in a finished state.

The issues you see are the ones they could not fix. The most reasonable explanation for why it wasn't finished was that those final problems were incredibly difficult to fix. If there is a hard minimum set of requirements to push the feature, and they get it 99% of the way there, but that last 1% would take (using hyperbole to illustrate a point) another two years, what do you do? It looks 99% finished, but how much effort would be needed to get that last 1% (if they even deemed it possible to achieve that 1% in the first place) could be much greater in proportion.

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As someone who strives to make sure everyone feels respected in a disagreement, Snipe’s reply did come off as needlessly mean-spirited at the end. It’s disappointing, so do better.

Hey Kornmuffin, stop being mean or I'll cry so hard you'll explode into smitheroons!

I hard agree on your thoughts of acquisition in Destiny. If it's an RNG raid weapon, it might as well not exist to me. I run raids for the camaraderie and don't chase any of that nonsense.

Sounds like the rewards for it simply aren't cool enough for you to bother, which is a more subjective issue.

What in the hell are you talking about.

He brought up how game development costs have dramatically risen over the years. I suggested that a possible solution to that problem could be to invest into the tools used to create the games. The goal being to streamline workflows so that devs have an easier time quickly creating. For example, I always think of this awesome demo Kojima did showing off features of the Fox Engine used to build Metal Gear Solid 5. In just minutes, he's able to build a convincing scene. Cool stuff.

I'm so g'damn confused here.

I said almost everything people complained about in H4, they doubled down on in H5. Meaning the art/sound redesigns, favoring player focused abilities over sandbox based design, and the removal of features previously available (H5 launched with no Forge, broken Theater, no file share, bare-bones custom games options, no splitscreen, etc.)

H5 tightened up the combat and brought it much closer to OG Halo than Halo 4

Eh, no? With H4 being what amounts to a Reach mod, the core handling was essentially unchanged. same with H2A.

H5 represented their first major changes to the BLAM engine, and it felt way different. Aim assist features were cranked way up to account for abilities such as sprint, thrust, and clamber. The crosshair was moved up to the middle of he screen.

It had huge memorable set pieces (fighting your way into the sangheili city, warping to the guardian and sliding down it) and I've played the campaign multiple times cause I just overall liked the general feel of it. Also the Halo 5 MP was TIGHT, at a time where Destiny was 30fps as well as other big shooters, Halo 5 was a crisp 60 fps and felt snappy.

The ancient Elite architecture stuff was legitimately petty cool.

And yeah the higher the framerate the better.

As I said previously, this does not match my perception of the time. I would have described the contemporaneous response to Halo 2 in terms of online discourse as initially majority negative.

Dude, I don't know what to tell you man. I spent my fair share of time on B.net, I remember most people being pretty cool. A lot of story speculation back then that you don't really see today.

Dude, I don't know what to tell you man. I spent my fair share of time on B.net, I remember most people being pretty cool.

Yeah that's where I spent most of my time too. Too bad Bungie stopped hosting that information. I will say, I did a quick dive through HBO posts from when Halo 2 was released to a few months afterward, and there was mixed negative and positive, but notably there are actually a lot of posts seeming to defend Halo 2 from a perceived sense of majority dislike (e.g., "am I the only one who likes Halo 2?" style posts). Not sure there's a "truth" that can be known in this discussion, given the nebulous criteria. Only just sharing my sense of things (and I have had this sense for a while, I often used to post this same response to people ripping on Halo 3 for being worse than Halo 2).

A lot of story speculation back then that you don't really see today.

That's true. I do think how people criticize, react, and speculate about story in various medias has changed a lot in the past 15 years, so it's hard to isolate that as a symptom of 343i-era Halo, although personally I completely stopped caring after Halo 4.

As I said previously, this does not match my perception of the time. I would have described the contemporaneous response to Halo 2 in terms of online discourse as initially majority negative.

Dude, I don't know what to tell you man. I spent my fair share of time on B.net, I remember most people being pretty cool. A lot of story speculation back then that you don't really see today.

Are you kidding me? Things people were upset about:

New Mombasa levels never looked or played like the E3 demo

They shipped a game they didn't even finish.

Final level as Arbiter, not Chief??

The HCE pistol was gutted

Duel wielding was required for certain weapons

Quicktime punching the bosses which made them more "bossy" and less like regular enemies.

Bullet-sponge brutes

Where did the one-shot-in-the-back hunters go?

Destructible warthogs ruined the game.

The switch to the Havok physics ruined the "feel"

Super-Bouncing

Melee-lunging

BXR was a skill you had to learn

Competitive playlist numbers and SBM incentivized de-leveling and hiring people to get to 50 or whatever the number was

Incubus ruined Marty's epic soundtracks

Jackal Snipers on Legendary ruined the balance

Elites speak english rather than Worting in alien tongues.

Anything else I'm missing?

Random HBO thread I just came across while trying to decide how Halo 2 was received on the internet:

Cody's Dream

Random HBO thread I just came across while trying to decide how Halo 2 was received on the internet:

Cody's Dream

I kind of remember that now lol

But do me a favor and ignore all the posts after 2007 or so when I was a giant dick :-p

As someone who strives to make sure everyone feels respected in a disagreement, Snipe’s reply did come off as needlessly mean-spirited at the end. It’s disappointing, so do better.

Hey Kornmuffin, stop being mean or I'll cry so hard you'll explode into smitheroons!

As your friend, shut up.

You're being an ass.

Random HBO thread I just came across while trying to decide how Halo 2 was received on the internet:

Cody's Dream

I kind of remember that now lol

But do me a favor and ignore all the posts after 2007 or so when I was a giant dick :-p

Yeah, can I just piggy back on that request and also request you ignore my posts (too many year ranges to even list).

You cut out the point of that sentence.

I was irrelevant to my point.

I saw that pull quote in the video, and I would like to know the context.

Boom.

As expected, the quote doesn't say what it seems to say out of context.

What? Yes it does.

"We had people who we hired who hated Halo" is not changed when you add "because of 'X,'". They hated Halo, it doesn't matter why. Also doesn't matter what they wanted to add to the game they hate, they still hated it.

Here's another cool bit from that article that I actually hadn't read before.

"It's during that time you're questioning yourself: 'How is this going to work, will it be as I envision it in my head?" says Holmes. For Halo 4, he says there were a few epiphany moments that helped boost the morale of the team. One of the earlier ones that Holmes recalls was when the team completed a small piece of the Halo experience that he described as a "very traditional" Halo. User research showed that people thought it was a lot of fun, and it showed that the team was capable of making a Halo game that was true to what the series was about.

343 scrapped it, Holmes says, as it was too traditional."

Neat.

Again, read my posts. There was complaining. It was not the majority of posts. Most people were perfectly happy with 2, 3, and even Reach.

Squid's insistence is admittedly making me question myself though, maybe the wayback machine has a lot of those pages? I'll check it out later.

As your friend, shut up.

Haven't seen you online for a while. Where you been?

You're being an ass.

Damn, now you're gonna start calling people names for no rhyme or reason, too? Must be something in the water lol.

About the Longevity of HBO

Squid's insistence is admittedly making me question myself though, maybe the wayback machine has a lot of those pages? I'll check it out later.

Here's an interesting one that backs up at least the idea that other people at the time had a sense there was a large negative reaction:

The hype didn't hurt Halo 2. The secrecy did.

The overwhelming majority of people thought that Halo 2 was a very good game. And Halo 2 had a firestorm of fan disappointment.

(And really, those two positions aren't mutually exclusive even for a single person.)

I feel personally attacked

Random HBO thread I just came across while trying to decide how Halo 2 was received on the internet:

Cody's Dream

That reminds me of my dream.

As your friend, shut up.

Haven't seen you online for a while. Where you been?

You're being an ass.

Damn, now you're gonna start calling people names for no rhyme or reason, too? Must be something in the water lol.

In the past, you aided me from my social blindness with a post of those exact words, now re-framed. Felt prudent to return the curtsy, as I at least was grateful for it. And I hope, despite the blithe response, you'll reconsider your words. You've pushed past comments with good taste here, in part perhaps due to the topic being something deeply passionate about.

Sir.

You're being an ass.

Damn, now you're gonna start calling people names for no rhyme or reason, too? Must be something in the water lol.

Ya know, a few people calling me an ass on the forums was quite helpful for self reflection of my online persona.

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It didn't exactly "work great"

I take it you didn't actually watch the video in question.

Excluding a few minor visual glitches, it worked pretty great. Even on the launch model XB1.

Around the 14 minute mark, they say they have no idea why it was cancelled as it's nearly in a finished state.

Yeah, it's frustrating to see it in action and not know why it wasn't delivered. That said, Digital Foundry saying they have no idea why it was cancelled is not the same as them saying there is no good reason for it to have been cancelled.

I'm confident there's a severe bug of some kind. A father and son playing for a few hours isn't exactly the most rigorous test plan--certainly not vigorous enough to pronounce a feature nearly finished.

The problem is that 343 promised they could deliver before they knew for sure--way before.

If they had mentioned it closer to launch, perhaps with a caveat, the walk back would've been less dramatic. The way it was handled was a mistake--a mistake that deserves criticism.

I think the disconnect here is some people see the criticism as too quick to assume bad motives. We don't know why split-screen was cancelled, so there must be a bad reason. It's a very cynical time, and cynicism is considered sophisticated. It's actually naïve. The majority of people don't get out of bed thinking of how they'll disappoint other people. They think they're doing a good thing. If we keep this in mind, maybe we could become a little more humble, and perhaps we could begin to have productive conversations again.

Again, read my posts. There was complaining. It was not the majority of posts. Most people were perfectly happy with 2, 3, and even Reach.

Squid's insistence is admittedly making me question myself though, maybe the wayback machine has a lot of those pages? I'll check it out later.

The difference you are seeing is not in the sentiments but in how they manifest. Whether then, or now, the way people express sentiment online, the way we perceive that sentiment, it has never been a statistically accurate sample of overall sentiment.

The data set is skewed, first and foremost, by who is online to express such sentiment. You must then consider how the general online sentiments and mentalities, the general gaming sentiments and mentalities, and the platforms via which people express themselves shape behavior and the sentiments themselves.

Not only does negativity have a compounding effect (which means it was going to be worse now, as time has passed, regardless of any other changes in the actual games themselves) but as the internet population grew, these online behaviors and mentalities leaked back into the real world more strongly, as well.

The Halo games themselves have a part to play in how people have responded to them, that's a given. However, the nature of discourse and fandom has changed so dramatically that it'd take several research papers to even have a modicum of confidence to say what all has contributed to these differences and to what degree.

I strongly suspect that the reaction to Halo 2 in the present online climate would've been quite raucous. Bungie was forgiven for their mistakes as what they did manage to land was novel in that specific moment in time. They were saved by serendipity, especially when you consider the interviews that discuss how Halo 2's multiplayer was looked down upon by the rest of the dev team.

It's very hard to enjoy things publicly nowadays, even things that are of pretty good quality. That says something.

You cut out the point of that sentence.

I was irrelevant to my point.

I saw that pull quote in the video, and I would like to know the context.

Boom.

As expected, the quote doesn't say what it seems to say out of context.

What? Yes it does.

"We had people who we hired who hated Halo" is not changed when you add "because of 'X,'". They hated Halo, it doesn't matter why. Also doesn't matter what they wanted to add to the game they hate, they still hated it.

Bear with me for a moment, as this may not seem relevant at first.

"We had people who we hired who hated Halo because of 'X,'" says O'Connor. "But what that really meant was, 'I feel like this game could be awesome because of 'Y input' that I'm going to bring into it. I want to prove it, and I'm passionate about proving it.'

Players are often atrocious at providing feedback. More often then not they try to offer it by pointing at specific things and saying they're broken and/or offering advice on how to make things better. This is not optimal, as the player often does not understand what the intention behind the decisions was, and what they think is broken might be a side effect of another decision with decent reasoning, or it could be the result of a bug but the feedback doesn't point to the actual problem. Ideal feedback is given in the form of feelings and (missed) expectations. I feel like this should be faster/slower, I'm struggling to do x, y, z, etc. etc. Basically, people very rarely know what it is that is wrong, and incorrectly attribute the issues they are facing.

Frank saying, "But what that really meant was," stands out to me as a very important part of this passage, and frankly he should've left the first part out entirely. What Frank is doing here is noting that there were people who had misplaced emotions. Initially, they thought they "hated Halo," but after digging through that "feedback" with said individuals, they rooted out what those individuals' actual feelings and issues were. They didn't actually hate Halo, they had issues they thought could be solved. 343i hired some of those folk who made solid arguments, that they saw as valuable additions to challenge the status quo (because everything can always be improved) as they did not want to get complacent and just churn out carbon copies of what came before.

Here's another cool bit from that article that I actually hadn't read before.

"It's during that time you're questioning yourself: 'How is this going to work, will it be as I envision it in my head?" says Holmes. For Halo 4, he says there were a few epiphany moments that helped boost the morale of the team. One of the earlier ones that Holmes recalls was when the team completed a small piece of the Halo experience that he described as a "very traditional" Halo. User research showed that people thought it was a lot of fun, and it showed that the team was capable of making a Halo game that was true to what the series was about.

343 scrapped it, Holmes says, as it was too traditional."

Neat.

Now, I do agree that this may be an issue. I personally thought Halo 5 and Infinite were very good attempts at rejuvenating the series. I personally feel Halo 5 was a radical shake up ala Halo 2, though in ways that I can definitely understand the alienation some fans felt. Infinite is, IMO, the best Halo game since Halo 2 (mechanically speaking) as it feels like the Halo 3 I would've preferred. The question is...was the game they scraped like Infinite? That'd have been a terrible call. However, if they created nothing but a carbon copy of Bungie's Halo games...I do think, as of that moment in time, taking the risk to innovate was the right call. That's what Bungie would've done, after all.

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He brought up how game development costs have dramatically risen over the years. I suggested that a possible solution to that problem could be to invest into the tools used to create the games. The goal being to streamline workflows so that devs have an easier time quickly creating. For example, I always think of this awesome demo Kojima did showing off features of the Fox Engine used to build Metal Gear Solid 5. In just minutes, he's able to build a convincing scene. Cool stuff.

Fascinatingly enough, Chris Butcher remarked at GDC several years ago that it was, quite frankly, going to become infeasible for the vast majority of the industry to create their own engines in the future. That's why Destiny is technically still running on a modified BLAM engine. You simply can't start from scratch anymore. You're right that investing in tooling is important, it's just becoming difficult to do that properly in and of itself.

I said almost everything people complained about in H4, they doubled down on in H5. Meaning the art/sound redesigns, favoring player focused abilities over sandbox based design, and the removal of features previously available (H5 launched with no Forge, broken Theater, no file share, bare-bones custom games options, no splitscreen, etc.)

H5 tightened up the combat and brought it much closer to OG Halo than Halo 4

Eh, no? With H4 being what amounts to a Reach mod, the core handling was essentially unchanged. same with H2A.

H5 represented their first major changes to the BLAM engine, and it felt way different. Aim assist features were cranked way up to account for abilities such as sprint, thrust, and clamber. The crosshair was moved up to the middle of he screen.

Honestly, I feel like Halo 2 was the other Halo title to really shake things up. While it was definitely more sandbox based than Halo 5's changes, it took some of Bungie's sandbox elements and made them inherent, which I preferred as I never liked Bungie's implementation of equipment at any point in the series. Halo Infinite is a good compromise, IMO, but it only works because most of the equipment they designed feels good to use. I never felt that way with Halo 3 or Reach. Halo 5 and Infinite's "abilities" both felt good to use, their impact on the sandbox aside.

He brought up how game development costs have dramatically risen over the years. I suggested that a possible solution to that problem could be to invest into the tools used to create the games. The goal being to streamline workflows so that devs have an easier time quickly creating. For example, I always think of this awesome demo Kojima did showing off features of the Fox Engine used to build Metal Gear Solid 5. In just minutes, he's able to build a convincing scene. Cool stuff.

Fascinatingly enough, Chris Butcher remarked at GDC several years ago that it was, quite frankly, going to become infeasible for the vast majority of the industry to create their own engines in the future. That's why Destiny is technically still running on a modified BLAM engine. You simply can't start from scratch anymore. You're right that investing in tooling is important, it's just becoming difficult to do that properly in and of itself.

Which is why engines like Unreal Engine 5 are making it way easier to do stuff like that MGS5 demo showed. I'm not a developer, but all the features and things they are highlighting are about making creation far easier and more streamlined. CD Projekt RED has decided to switch to Unreal 5 for their next Witcher game instead of their engine they've been using for everything. It just makes more sense to me that a big company does nothing but maintain and create an engine, then game devs take that engine, which is itself flexible and customizable, and create their games from that.

There's so many cool games that just would not exist without Unity. Seems to me like game engine creation WILL be something game developers just don't do in the future, and they'll be all the better for it since they can spend resources on actually making the game and not just getting the tech working.

Again, read my posts. There was complaining. It was not the majority of posts. Most people were perfectly happy with 2, 3, and even Reach.

Squid's insistence is admittedly making me question myself though, maybe the wayback machine has a lot of those pages? I'll check it out later.

The difference you are seeing is not in the sentiments but in how they manifest. Whether then, or now, the way people express sentiment online, the way we perceive that sentiment, it has never been a statistically accurate sample of overall sentiment.

The data set is skewed, first and foremost, by who is online to express such sentiment. You must then consider how the general online sentiments and mentalities, the general gaming sentiments and mentalities, and the platforms via which people express themselves shape behavior and the sentiments themselves.

Not only does negativity have a compounding effect (which means it was going to be worse now, as time has passed, regardless of any other changes in the actual games themselves) but as the internet population grew, these online behaviors and mentalities leaked back into the real world more strongly, as well.

The Halo games themselves have a part to play in how people have responded to them, that's a given. However, the nature of discourse and fandom has changed so dramatically that it'd take several research papers to even have a modicum of confidence to say what all has contributed to these differences and to what degree.

At this point books have been written about how the media, and social media in particular, rewards negativity, and how that's changed how people think about themselves and each other. It's a downward spiral.

I strongly suspect that the reaction to Halo 2 in the present online climate would've been quite raucous. Bungie was forgiven for their mistakes as what they did manage to land was novel in that specific moment in time. They were saved by serendipity, especially when you consider the interviews that discuss how Halo 2's multiplayer was looked down upon by the rest of the dev team.

I think that's exactly right.

He brought up how game development costs have dramatically risen over the years. I suggested that a possible solution to that problem could be to invest into the tools used to create the games. The goal being to streamline workflows so that devs have an easier time quickly creating. For example, I always think of this awesome demo Kojima did showing off features of the Fox Engine used to build Metal Gear Solid 5. In just minutes, he's able to build a convincing scene. Cool stuff.

Fascinatingly enough, Chris Butcher remarked at GDC several years ago that it was, quite frankly, going to become infeasible for the vast majority of the industry to create their own engines in the future. That's why Destiny is technically still running on a modified BLAM engine. You simply can't start from scratch anymore. You're right that investing in tooling is important, it's just becoming difficult to do that properly in and of itself.

Which is why engines like Unreal Engine 5 are making it way easier to do stuff like that MGS5 demo showed. I'm not a developer, but all the features and things they are highlighting are about making creation far easier and more streamlined. CD Projekt RED has decided to switch to Unreal 5 for their next Witcher game instead of their engine they've been using for everything. It just makes more sense to me that a big company does nothing but maintain and create an engine, then game devs take that engine, which is itself flexible and customizable, and create their games from that.

There's so many cool games that just would not exist without Unity. Seems to me like game engine creation WILL be something game developers just don't do in the future, and they'll be all the better for it since they can spend resources on actually making the game and not just getting the tech working.

The benefits of using engines like UE and Unity are vast (though Unity is becoming more of a questionable choice as of late), but there's also that ever present specter of consolidation on the horizon. You don't necessarily want more than half of the industry dependent on one or even two engines...that could have devastating consequences.

It's no question, though, that UE5 enables some mindblowing possibilities right out of the box.

You don't necessarily want more than half of the industry dependent on one or even two engines...that could have devastating consequences.

Like… what?

You don't necessarily want more than half of the industry dependent on one or even two engines...that could have devastating consequences.

Like… what?

...have you heard the word "monopoly" before? lol I thought it was pretty self-evident that you don't want an incredibly large portion of an industry reliant on an incredibly small number of providers of the same resource.