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So... Ender's Game *OT* (Off-Topic)

by Quirel, Monday, November 04, 2013, 23:55 (4043 days ago)

Almost entirely spoiler free.

Went and saw it with my brother tonight.

It was better than I feared, not as good as I had hoped. A lot of parts seem to have suffered because they had to cut so much out. Maybe better pacing could have helped, but there didn't seem to be enough meat behind Ender's growth through Battle School, or his struggle and breakdown from having the deck stacked against him.

And Peter, well, his impact on Ender just wasn't justified by his forty-five seconds of screentime. By necessity and common sense, the "Peter and Valentine take over the world" subplot was omitted, but what's left is just another jock.

That said, the Formics and the discovery of the Queen made up for the worst parts of the movie, and the Battle Room was awesome... if under-utilized. My brother was blown away by the 'simulation' reveal toward the end, since he hadn't read the book. My own wow-moment came when I finally made the connection between some crumbled spires and... well, you'll know if you see the movie.

Ender's Game is an alright science fiction film, but it's not a good adaptation of a science fiction classic. And... I guess that's it, except for one thing.

One. Little. Thing.

*Twitch*

By God, Heinlein, and Freeman Dyson, can we please get one realistic depiction of space combat? How may visual effects directors am I going to have to kill until you limp sacks of Kzinti dung quit treating space. Like. A. Fracking. Ocean?! Mass Effect was bad enough, but Ender's Game? The story about a kid who excels at space combat. Because. He. Understands. Three. Dimensional. Space?! What the HELL is the matter with you? A crew of Vogon bureaucrats could have done a more competent job! And the atmospheric entry. Star Trek Into Darkness Occasionally Lit By Lens Flare has the sad excuse of being Star Trek, but do you Hollywood idiots truly have no clue how high up lunar orbit is? Or how comparatively thin the gorram atmosphere of a planet is? Screw you and the horse y'all rode in on!

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So... Ender's Game *OT*

by MrPadraig08 ⌂ @, Steel City, Tuesday, November 05, 2013, 06:54 (4042 days ago) @ Quirel

Almost entirely spoiler free.

Went and saw it with my brother tonight.

It was better than I feared, not as good as I had hoped. A lot of parts seem to have suffered because they had to cut so much out. Maybe better pacing could have helped, but there didn't seem to be enough meat behind Ender's growth through Battle School, or his struggle and breakdown from having the deck stacked against him.

And Peter, well, his impact on Ender just wasn't justified by his forty-five seconds of screentime. By necessity and common sense, the "Peter and Valentine take over the world" subplot was omitted, but what's left is just another jock.

That said, the Formics and the discovery of the Queen made up for the worst parts of the movie, and the Battle Room was awesome... if under-utilized. My brother was blown away by the 'simulation' reveal toward the end, since he hadn't read the book. My own wow-moment came when I finally made the connection between some crumbled spires and... well, you'll know if you see the movie.

Ender's Game is an alright science fiction film, but it's not a good adaptation of a science fiction classic. And... I guess that's it, except for one thing.


So, I enjoyed it thoroughly, but I've only read about a quarter of the book and semi-knew the plot twist at the end (still blew my mind though.)

The pacing is what suffers the most from the time restriction, it honestly feels like a montage of the movie we're supposed to be watching, it cuts from scene to scene and wastes absolutely no time. This helps out the battle school scenes and dragon army scenes as it just builds momentum, but they still show like 3 war games in total. I was also a bit disappointed they didn't take time explaining how society changed and shifted after the buggers had attacked before. There is no explanation of why being a third is different or difficult. Peter's influence was phoned in, and entire subplots were dropped.

It's also difficult to do a visual external interpretation of a work that is mostly about the character's emotions and thoughts. Could've used narration for that, but the narration in there already felt flat.

Also, did anyone notice that when Harrison Ford is talking to Ender while Bonzo is being operated on, he has like some food on his face. Did no one notice that when filming?

All that being said, it did better than I feared and was a fun sci-fi movie, definitely itches the classic sci-fi itch I've been having lately.

One. Little. Thing.

*Twitch*

By God, Heinlein, and Freeman Dyson, can we please get one realistic depiction of space combat? How may visual effects directors am I going to have to kill until you limp sacks of Kzinti dung quit treating space. Like. A. Fracking. Ocean?! Mass Effect was bad enough, but Ender's Game? The story about a kid who excels at space combat. Because. He. Understands. Three. Dimensional. Space?! What the HELL is the matter with you? A crew of Vogon bureaucrats could have done a more competent job! And the atmospheric entry. Star Trek Into Darkness Occasionally Lit By Lens Flare has the sad excuse of being Star Trek, but do you Hollywood idiots truly have no clue how high up lunar orbit is? Or how comparatively thin the gorram atmosphere of a planet is? Screw you and the horse y'all rode in on!


Yea, space is made of math and science, it's hard stuff. Maybe someone will get it right someday.

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So... Ender's Game *OT*

by Beorn @, <End of Failed Timeline>, Tuesday, November 05, 2013, 19:16 (4042 days ago) @ MrPadraig08

The pacing is what suffers the most from the time restriction, it honestly feels like a montage of the movie we're supposed to be watching, it cuts from scene to scene and wastes absolutely no time.

Exactly. Unfortunately the pace moved so quickly that I found it distracting. We didn't have any time to really attach to the characters, locations, or motives because by the time any exposition would have come up, we had already moved on. The visuals were great, but I think the story lost a lot of its weight when it moved to screenplay.

I thought that Asa Butterfield portrayed Ender quite well, so well-done for him! It's been almost 15 years (HOLY CRAP!) since I've read Ender's Game, so the other characters are a little fuzzy in my head. I should dig my hardcover version out of the moving box...

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So... Ender's Game *OT*

by Leviathan ⌂, Hotel Zanzibar, Tuesday, November 05, 2013, 07:47 (4042 days ago) @ Quirel

I don't think I'll see it anytime soon. Not saying it couldn't be good. It's just one of those books that worked so amazingly AS a single book that I'm not interested in supplementing that special space in my brain where ithe experiences resides. Same reason I didn't read any of the sequels.

I read Ender's Game in a day, beautifully visualized by John Harris's subtle but colorful art, pumped up on raw memories of high school. I loved it, every second, and I don't want to cloud that personal relationship. I felt similar things when the Watchmen movie or it's non-Alan Moore prequel comics came out.

Mr. Quirel, I have planned out a number of space combat scenes for my comic, Mayflower, and Ender's Game was definitely a seed that led me to depicting them in near-realism (while still making it exciting). I often think of you or Stephen Loftus and hope it would do your wants justice. I don't know why film has never realized how unique, terrifying and exhilarating a vision of real space combat could be. Outside, there's no sound of course, the silence expressing the vast void and bringing solemnity to the actions, but inside, you'd be jumping in to hear the contrast of noise inside the cockpits: comm chatter, lock-on alerts, dialogue, and perhaps the rattle of a damaged ship. All this while you see the movements of the players unfold in three unnervingly equal dimensions. I can perfectly see a view from behind the pilot's shoulder as he pushes forward the joystick and Jupiter and the stars go reeling upwards in the vein of a roller coaster fall. Small ships act as sentient missiles, motherships are nowhere near on top of each other. One's pointing this way, one's pointing that way. It's less about dogfights and more about arcing lights moving purposefully and flexibly, like skaters dancing on ice while they perform calculus... Shit, I'm excited, I need to go make this.

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So... Ender's Game *OT*

by breitzen @, Kansas, Tuesday, November 05, 2013, 08:30 (4042 days ago) @ Leviathan

I definitely understand where your coming from. I'm someone who can disconnect a movie from a book it's based on and can view them as two separate things. Not a lot of people can (or even want) to do that.

The movie certainly captured the spirit of the book, it's just not as deep and personal. It missed the mark on a couple of things but certainly was a "fun" science fiction movie to spend my Friday evening watching!

Still for you, yeah I'd probably hold off; it's like I wish I had never seen Eragon. Not that it ruined the book, in fact it made me appreciate the book more. But it was just a horrible waste of my time. lol

As for the other books, I really enjoyed them. They're different style and thematically, but it was great to see Ender try and fix what he's done.

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So... Ender's Game *OT*

by Leviathan ⌂, Hotel Zanzibar, Tuesday, November 05, 2013, 16:01 (4042 days ago) @ breitzen

I definitely understand where your coming from. I'm someone who can disconnect a movie from a book it's based on and can view them as two separate things. Not a lot of people can (or even want) to do that.

The movie certainly captured the spirit of the book, it's just not as deep and personal. It missed the mark on a couple of things but certainly was a "fun" science fiction movie to spend my Friday evening watching!

Still for you, yeah I'd probably hold off; it's like I wish I had never seen Eragon. Not that it ruined the book, in fact it made me appreciate the book more. But it was just a horrible waste of my time. lol

I can handle a lot of adaptions, and honestly, I usually prefer to them be very different than their inspiration. Blade Runner has almost nothing in common with Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep yet they're about the same thing. It's lovely. Complimentary. Lord of the Rings changes stuff sometimes and omits a lot, but it still captures the spirit and themes of the books while acting as a gallery of beautiful art I can lose myself in. I guess it's where I see the need for the movie to exist. The Dark Knight Trilogy felt like it needed to exist. The character of Batman screamed for a serious, realistic, subtle take. With Ender's Game... I just felt so... satisfied after finishing it. It didn't leave me craving more, and that's a compliment. :)

As for the other books, I really enjoyed them. They're different style and thematically, but it was great to see Ender try and fix what he's done.

I will say Speaker For the Dead has started to pique my interest, especially because I loved the epilogue to Ender's Game. Perhaps I'll get around to reading some of the sequels some day when I get through some of my backlog. :) If nothing else, I'm very happy the sequels exist just to have given John Harris so many canvases to illustrate!

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So... Ender's Game *OT*

by Sven, New York, Tuesday, November 05, 2013, 19:01 (4042 days ago) @ Leviathan

If you enjoyed Ender's Game you'll like the rest of Ender's Quartet. Card dives deeper into Ender's psyche as an adult and explores more lifeforms around the universe. If you thought the Hive Mind was interesting, you've seen nothing yet.

So... Ender's Game *OT*

by marmot 1333 @, Thursday, November 07, 2013, 06:54 (4040 days ago) @ Sven

I've always thought Speaker for the Dead is an amazing book.

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Speaking of realistic spaceflight...

by Mid7night ⌂ @, Rocket BSCHSHCSHSHCCHGGH!!!!!!, Tuesday, November 05, 2013, 11:13 (4042 days ago) @ Leviathan

I've toyed around with X-Plane a LOT, as some of you know, and one of the things I love about it is the fact that you can in fact fly all the way from sea-level into orbit. The trouble is, once you're in orbit, you're moving REALLY FREEKIN FAST, which plays havoc with the chase-view-camera (and the in-cockpit camera is just BORING) :)

But the other neat thing about X-Plane, that almost NO ONE knows about, is the fact that you can change the atmospheric AND planetary constants! So you can set the environment to zero pressure and zero gravity, and simulate much easier the effects of actually flying around in space, without having the camera snap into weird angles because you're not actually being flung along at a bazillion knots.

So a dogfight in this environment would be something you could only expect if you and your opponent were on the same initial orbital trajectory, but "absolute" velocity is not as important in a dogfight as "relative" velocity. That is, your velocity relative to your opponent; which my tweaked-version of X-Plane does a pretty fun job at simulating.

What this little experiment highlighted for me just how DIFFERENT a space-fighter would need to be in order to maneuver effectively in an environment where the ONLY forces at your disposal are the ones you bring with you. You don't have air to push on for changing direction, and you don't have gravity to rely on for an easy trip "down". You wanna go "down"? You gotta have a rocket PUSH you "down"! Wanna turn? That's nice. You can point yourself left all you want, you ain't gonna go there unless you apply force...CONSTANTLY. :P

To say the least; it's tricky. :D

Mr. Quirel, I have planned out a number of space combat scenes for my comic, Mayflower, and Ender's Game was definitely a seed that led me to depicting them in near-realism (while still making it exciting). I often think of you or Stephen Loftus and hope it would do your wants justice. I don't know why film has never realized how unique, terrifying and exhilarating a vision of real space combat could be. Outside, there's no sound of course, the silence expressing the vast void and bringing solemnity to the actions, but inside, you'd be jumping in to hear the contrast of noise inside the cockpits: comm chatter, lock-on alerts, dialogue, and perhaps the rattle of a damaged ship. All this while you see the movements of the players unfold in three unnervingly equal dimensions. I can perfectly see a view from behind the pilot's shoulder as he pushes forward the joystick and Jupiter and the stars go reeling upwards in the vein of a roller coaster fall. Small ships act as sentient missiles, motherships are nowhere near on top of each other. One's pointing this way, one's pointing that way. It's less about dogfights and more about arcing lights moving purposefully and flexibly, like skaters dancing on ice while they perform calculus... Shit, I'm excited, I need to go make this.

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So... Ender's Game *OT*

by Chewbaccawakka @, The Great Green Pacific Northwest!, Tuesday, November 05, 2013, 13:31 (4042 days ago) @ Leviathan

I don't think I'll see it anytime soon. Not saying it couldn't be good. It's just one of those books that worked so amazingly AS a single book that I'm not interested in supplementing that special space in my brain where the experiences reside. Same reason I didn't read any of the sequels.


Man, I understand wanting to preserve the original experience, but you are missing out! When I first read Enders Game I immediately jumped into the sequels and I hated them. They were such a departure from the original, that eleven year old me didn't know what to do with them. But I read them all, and then I reread them, and re-read them.

The Shadow series, I could take or leave, they're good books but not my favorite. However Speaker for the Dead, Xenocide, and Children of the Mind weave such a complete tapestry of Andrew Wiggins adult life that they easily reside at the top of my list of favorite sci-fi. Xenocide alone might be my favorite sci-fi novel, period.

Don't read them if you don't want to, but as a long-time Enders fan know that I absolutely loved the sequels. (Except the recent Ender in Exile, that one was kinda meh)

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So... Ender's Game *OT*

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Tuesday, November 05, 2013, 14:36 (4042 days ago) @ Chewbaccawakka

Agreed. At the very least try Speaker for the Dead. It is such a different story from Ender's game that it won't try and sit in the same place or expel the former from your mind. It's a great sci-fi look at everything from family relationships, to guilt, to alien biology and customs, to AI, to human expansion and colonization. You get to root for Ender in a whole different way and it's amazing to watch him use his emotional skills and innate ability to understand someone which were apparent in Ender's game for healing rather than harm.

I like Ender's Game a lot, but for me Speaker for the Dead is the true Ender book.

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So... Ender's Game *OT*

by Xenos @, Shores of Time, Tuesday, November 05, 2013, 14:45 (4042 days ago) @ Ragashingo

I know I am one of the few but I actually love the Shadow series. Very different than the Ender series, but I love the political and war fiction.

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So... Ender's Game *OT*

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Tuesday, November 05, 2013, 15:03 (4042 days ago) @ Xenos

I know I am one of the few but I actually love the Shadow series. Very different than the Ender series, but I love the political and war fiction.

I haven't read them.

I've read Ender's Game, Speaker for the Dead, Xenocide, and Children of the Mind, the last of which I didn't like as much because of the way they solved the plot point (disease) that was previous awesome and unsolvable. I also more recently did Ender in Exile and thought it was interesting but a bit meh until Ender walked out onto the colony and just plain outmaneuvered his opponent(s). Didn't particularly like the "here's a random villain" bit near the end though...

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So... Ender's Game *OT*

by Xenos @, Shores of Time, Tuesday, November 05, 2013, 15:05 (4042 days ago) @ Ragashingo

I know I am one of the few but I actually love the Shadow series. Very different than the Ender series, but I love the political and war fiction.


I haven't read them.

I've read Ender's Game, Speaker for the Dead, Xenocide, and Children of the Mind, the last of which I didn't like as much because of the way they solved the plot point (disease) that was previous awesome and unsolvable. I also more recently did Ender in Exile and thought it was interesting but a bit meh until Ender walked out onto the colony and just plain outmaneuvered his opponent(s). Didn't particularly like the "here's a random villain" bit near the end though...

You'd actually have to read the Shadow series to understand that villain, but yeah I know where you come from.

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So... Ender's Game *OT*

by cheapLEY @, Tuesday, November 05, 2013, 16:11 (4042 days ago) @ Ragashingo

I like Ender's Game a lot, but for me Speaker for the Dead is the true Ender book.

I couldn't agree more. Speaker for the Dead (and it's two sequels) are great reads. I hated them at first, but I was twelve, and had just finished Ender's Game. I found them boring, and too different from the Ender universe that I loved. A few years later, I picked up Speaker for the Dead again, and I loved it. I still go back and read them from time to time, more often than I have Ender's Game.

I like the Shadow series, too, and I can see why some might favor those over the Speaker trilogy, but I sure don't.

I've read somewhere (hell, maybe even in the author's note in Speaker; I can't recall), that Speaker for the Dead was the novel Orson Scott Card really set out to write from the get go. But he though it needed more setup for who Andrew was before he jumped right into the Speaker story, so he wrote Ender's game. I can't recall exactly how the Ender's Game short story versus the novel come into it, but he had the idea for Speaker for the Dead first.

I highly recommend giving Speaker for the Dead shot. I love its depiction of an adult Andrew Wiggin, still dealing with the guilt of killing the Formics all those years ago, even hated by society at this point for doing it.

As for the film, I can already tell its inaccuracies are going to bug me just from the trailer, but I still want to see it. I'm not a huge stickler for details when it comes to turning a novel into a movie, so long as it feels like the film makers gave a shit and capture the spirit of the thing. I might try and go see it this weekend.

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So... Ender's Game *OT*

by Xenos @, Shores of Time, Tuesday, November 05, 2013, 16:19 (4042 days ago) @ cheapLEY

I've read somewhere (hell, maybe even in the author's note in Speaker; I can't recall), that Speaker for the Dead was the novel Orson Scott Card really set out to write from the get go. But he though it needed more setup for who Andrew was before he jumped right into the Speaker story, so he wrote Ender's game. I can't recall exactly how the Ender's Game short story versus the novel come into it, but he had the idea for Speaker for the Dead first.

Pretty close, he actually didn't have Ender in mind when he was trying to write Speaker for the Dead, and he had already written the short story quite awhile before. So while he was writing the novel for Ender's Game he realized Ender IS the Speaker for the Dead. And yeah it's in one of the intros or notes from one of the books, if I remember I'll check which one when I get home.

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So... Ender's Game *OT*

by cheapLEY @, Tuesday, November 05, 2013, 21:18 (4042 days ago) @ Xenos

Pretty close, he actually didn't have Ender in mind when he was trying to write Speaker for the Dead, and he had already written the short story quite awhile before. So while he was writing the novel for Ender's Game he realized Ender IS the Speaker for the Dead. And yeah it's in one of the intros or notes from one of the books, if I remember I'll check which one when I get home.

Yeah, that sounds right. I don't have my copy of Speaker handy, otherwise I'd give it a glance, but I'm sure you're right.

As an aside, has anyone else read anything else by Card?

I haven't read any of his other novels besides all the Ender stuff, but I have his short story anthology, Maps in a Mirror, and if you haven't read it, it is absolutely worth picking up. So many great stories in there, including the original Ender's Game story and the short story that became his Alvin Maker series. Lots of good stuff in there, if you're into short stories.

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So... Ender's Game *OT*

by Xenos @, Shores of Time, Tuesday, November 05, 2013, 21:27 (4042 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Pretty close, he actually didn't have Ender in mind when he was trying to write Speaker for the Dead, and he had already written the short story quite awhile before. So while he was writing the novel for Ender's Game he realized Ender IS the Speaker for the Dead. And yeah it's in one of the intros or notes from one of the books, if I remember I'll check which one when I get home.


Yeah, that sounds right. I don't have my copy of Speaker handy, otherwise I'd give it a glance, but I'm sure you're right.

As an aside, has anyone else read anything else by Card?

I haven't read any of his other novels besides all the Ender stuff, but I have his short story anthology, Maps in a Mirror, and if you haven't read it, it is absolutely worth picking up. So many great stories in there, including the original Ender's Game story and the short story that became his Alvin Maker series. Lots of good stuff in there, if you're into short stories.

I just checked my copy and it's a combination between our two explanations. He decided to write the Ender's Game novel to prepare the story for Speaker of the Dead, but he didn't have the idea for it being Ender until after trying to write the story multiple times.

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So... Ender's Game *OT*

by Xenos @, Shores of Time, Tuesday, November 05, 2013, 21:47 (4042 days ago) @ cheapLEY

As an aside, has anyone else read anything else by Card?

I highly recommend Treason.

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So... Ender's Game *OT*

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Tuesday, November 05, 2013, 16:28 (4042 days ago) @ cheapLEY

My paper copy of Ender's Game (or maybe Speaker for the Dead) has a great long forward by Card about all of that. How Ender's game came to be a novel, and how it set up Speaker for the dead. I'll reread and paraphrase it when I get a chance.

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So... Ender's Game *OT*

by Leviathan ⌂, Hotel Zanzibar, Tuesday, November 05, 2013, 16:09 (4042 days ago) @ Chewbaccawakka

Man, I understand wanting to preserve the original experience, but you are missing out! When I first read Enders Game I immediately jumped into the sequels and I hated them. They were such a departure from the original, that eleven year old me didn't know what to do with them. But I read them all, and then I reread them, and re-read them.

The Shadow series, I could take or leave, they're good books but not my favorite. However Speaker for the Dead, Xenocide, and Children of the Mind weave such a complete tapestry of Andrew Wiggins adult life that they easily reside at the top of my list of favorite sci-fi. Xenocide alone might be my favorite sci-fi novel, period.

Don't read them if you don't want to, but as a long-time Enders fan know that I absolutely loved the sequels. (Except the recent Ender in Exile, that one was kinda meh)

Like I said to Breitzen above, I may read them someday. I just especially didn't want to right after finishing Ender's Game. It wasn't because the sequels looked bad, it was just because I thought the first was so good, if that makes sense. I think it was one of the most succinct novels I've ever read. I didn't have any more questions to ask of it.

I'd definitely start with Speaker For the Dead, if/when I do, though I also had a friend who loved Ender's Shadow. But I got about a 100 to 10,000 other science fiction classics, plus works from all genres, to get through first. :)

So... Ender's Game *OT*

by Flynn J Taggart, Tuesday, November 05, 2013, 22:53 (4042 days ago) @ Leviathan

I'd definitely start with Speaker For the Dead, if/when I do, though I also had a friend who loved Ender's Shadow. But I got about a 100 to 10,000 other science fiction classics, plus works from all genres, to get through first. :)

Just read Speaker if you work up the will some day. :) It's a wild change and an interesting way to take the series. If you're still on board after then finish that series and then consider the Shadow stuff.

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So... Ender's Game *OT*

by Quirel, Friday, November 08, 2013, 13:11 (4039 days ago) @ Leviathan

Mr. Quirel, I have planned out a number of space combat scenes for my comic, Mayflower, and Ender's Game was definitely a seed that led me to depicting them in near-realism (while still making it exciting).

I often think of you or Stephen Loftus and hope it would do your wants justice.

...
I just squee'd so hard, I think I broke something.

I don't know why film has never realized how unique, terrifying and exhilarating a vision of real space combat could be. Outside, there's no sound of course, the silence expressing the vast void and bringing solemnity to the actions, but inside, you'd be jumping in to hear the contrast of noise inside the cockpits: comm chatter, lock-on alerts, dialogue, and perhaps the rattle of a damaged ship.

I think that some tropes from submarine movies might be borrowed.
There's no windows because, well, what are you going to see? Ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion? Sure, they're the only stars in the sky that are twinkling.
And when the crew does speak during combat, it's in hushed whispers. Battles are drawn out and tense. The exciting, frantic parts are short-lived. =)

All this while you see the movements of the players unfold in three unnervingly equal dimensions. I can perfectly see a view from behind the pilot's shoulder as he pushes forward the joystick and Jupiter and the stars go reeling upwards in the vein of a roller coaster fall. Small ships act as sentient missiles, motherships are nowhere near on top of each other. One's pointing this way, one's pointing that way. It's less about dogfights and more about arcing lights moving purposefully and flexibly, like skaters dancing on ice while they perform calculus... Shit, I'm excited, I need to go make this.

Do it.

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