https://www.bungie.net/en/Explore/Detail/News/49027

TLDR;

All your stuff is becoming worthless except exotics.

I don't know, maybe we'll get a bunch of cool interesting weapons we only want to use for 3 months, but functionally that sounds complicated and annoying, 2 things this game needs a lot less of right now.

Sunsetting Armor is beyond stupid. It's taken me probably 4 seasons now to finally get a fully masterworked set of PvP armor for a single character. Masterworking armor is already expensive enough when you are just a casual PvP player. Now all that time and materials are wasted.

Why would class items need to be sunset?

Bungie does the shooter part very well. I'd like them to just drop the looter part. It has held this game back more than it helped.

I like the loot aspect of Destiny, most of the time. Getting neat new gear is cool. I don’t disagree that it’s also the source of most of the game’s problems, though.

And this seems really silly and unnecessary. If they need to kill old guns to make new guns viable, I think that says quite a bit about Bungie’s ability to be creative. I am really losing faith in them as a development studio. There are better ways to solve that problem.

Didn’t we do this already in D1? Are we just back at the start of the cycle?

Also, dmg straight up said on reddit they plan on reissuing old weapons in the future to make them relevant again. What a fucking joke.
EDIT: I guess they said that in the update, I missed it.

...

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... With a deep breath... I get it.

I get it.

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...

...

... but man, what is with Modern Bungie and their... incompetence in execution.

Just... like... STOP already!

Maybe (plausibly) it's 2020 being all sorts of crazy, bleeding in to things. ... or ...

*mmhm*

...but this seasons so called Season of the "Worthy" (though it really should have a prefix of "UN-" in that title) has been... utter dog shit. I haven't felt this much animosity towards Destiny The Game since Destiny 1. DESTINY 1! "Worse" subjectively, for me, then "Curse of Osiris". As such, recently I reflected. I read my "short novella" about the first year of Destiny 1. You know what I found? I could probably condense it down a third now, which is good. Yay! Personal Progress! At risk of self congratulations, there are some fairly decent quotes in it, among all the overly long and drawn out explanations. Some of which are still quite relevant.

I bring this up, as one of my biggest issues then was communication. To me then, that was one of THE BIGGEST kisses of DEATH for the game. The lack of tempering in expectations (should such, admittedly, be even possible) and the plight of personally built expectations. And I tell ya, while reading my flood of focused scattered thoughts, I was thinking to myself "has this been improved"? Is this grievance of mine in any way still true? And at the time of my reading and reflection I found my conclusion to be that communication has been improved since then. Sitting here now, I can say yes it has definitely improved, and yet... I don't think it has. It's a paradox in my head.

And in sitting here thinking about it... trying to write these words...

...

... there HAS been MORE communication, but that doesn't mean it's better.

So what do I mean about that? Well, Destiny is a live game. That means LOTS of moving parts. And the both of us, Fan & Studio alike have been learning what that means. Some of us handle it better then others. I? I never played the, I think, Granddaddy live game of them all, World of Warcraft, so I came into this raw. I had no idea. And I think it's safe to presume that most folk in Bungie right now, were never "Devs" for a Live game before either. We know there is at least one fan, but Developer? Nah.

So we're all learning.

Bungie has to keep the pot from getting stale, much as the problem was in Destiny 1, and we? I don't know. I DON'T KNOW! ... Play the game? I honestly have to question at this point if they know what play means. ...or... I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

They aren't FEELING the community, they are just... doing their job, and in doing so, it feels TO ME like they aren't doing their job. Does that make sense? Does the apathy even register? Again... THIS IS A LIVE GAME!

We don't have the full picture of what this looks like, and it seems like, as happy as I am that we are told this stuff in advance, this piece meal approach it seems to me, admittedly suddenly, like it's causing more problems then it solves right now. We are FORCED right now to react to a COG in the LIVE GAME machine. And we can't, shouldn't go back to "silence" as that was bad too! Dam'd do, dam'd don't!

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...

And... man, I got, you know I got more... I'm only started here, but I need to stop and post at this juncture. So here, read CruelLEGACEYs post, or something.

Sidenote: What happens to Drang in all this? ...¯\_(ツ)_/¯

(Note: This one starts out pretty good... and then dissolves into a rant. Just FYI.)

"The Live Game"

Bungie has to keep the pot from getting stale, much as the problem was in Destiny 1, and we? I don't know. I DON'T KNOW! ... Play the game? I honestly have to question at this point if they know what play means. ...or... I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

They aren't FEELING the community, they are just... doing their job, and in doing so, it feels TO ME like they aren't doing their job. Does that make sense? Does the apathy even register? Again... THIS IS A LIVE GAME!

We don't have the full picture of what this looks like, and it seems like, as happy as I am that we are told this stuff in advance, this piece meal approach it seems to me, admittedly suddenly, like it's causing more problems then it solves right now. We are FORCED right now to react to a COG in the LIVE GAME machine. And we can't, shouldn't go back to "silence" as that was bad too! Dam'd do, dam'd don't!

Recently, the internet become awash in fervor thanks to the first look at new tech in the upcoming Unreal Engine 5. I talked about it abit, to help those of us who are purely spectators in all of this understand how big of a deal all this tech being pitched was. It's because of this being still so fresh in my mind that I find myself with these current considerations. In the Demo, there is Tech for Super-High-Resolution Mesh detail, as well as Tech for Realtime Global Illumination. Just ONE of these ALONE is HUGEEE (as I mention) for how the future of REAL TIME VIRTUALIZATION (note... I did not say games alone). But TOGETHER!?! Force Multiplier! And I find myself bringing such considerations here to this TWAB post now and possibly future ones to come.

The question I find myself asking is... the unknown. On on hand, WHAT ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO DO WITH THAT! THE UNKNOWN!?! Seriously!?! And on the other... drip drip drip... we keep getting... one. puzzle. piece... a week. And while I can't say it refutes the very extremely well earned criticism being given in response to the TWABs content, but well... I'm the Warlock right?

I wonder. I can't help but wonder.

It's all aiming to something right? A something that frankly we should broadly already know due to Lukes "Director's Cut" Posts (1-1 1-2 1-3 & 2-2020). And yet... it feels like a bandage being pulled, scab and all... SLOOWWWLY.

Instead of giving a puzzle piece a week, I think it would be plausibly better if they just gave the structure, the forth coming blueprints, all at once. But then, if they do that... much like Destiny 1, they will have little else to show, right? It's not so much a weekly "conversation" as a... momentary blurb. A reaction to a set of clouds in the distance, and so much more unknown. A conversation given through cups and phone tag. It's... a shame. And it only gets compounded from here.

The live game. All these words, and I still haven't yammered about that yet! Let's fix that now. The live game, is... and isn't. So much of these choices that Bungie has to make... are untenable. It's like they are trying to guess the market, but instead of making bets and estimations on funny money, its efforts are for fans from a funny farm (and INSANEdrive). So by the time they get to here in the now, they can't respond to the market, to us, anywhere NEAR as much as I would guess they would like to. And they are drowning... full stop. After all this time, the game isn't built to be live, is is just to look that way. Just enough. THAT'S WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE TO ME! Yes, true, they can change things here and there, but... they are more a slave then we are, and I don't understand how we are in Year >5 and that doesn't seem to completely utterly horrify them. It seems that they don't plan for failure, and then they fail just about every time. They are just drumming along. "Doing their jobs", doing all they can muster in a fever to keep the pot from getting stale.

...*Sigh*...

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... Right ...

"Hamster Dance"

Bungie has to keep the pot from getting stale, much as the problem was in Destiny 1, and we? I don't know. I DON'T KNOW! ... Play the game? I honestly have to question at this point if they know what play means. ...or... I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

So, what does this mean for us? Well, it means we get stuck with our own drumroll. Our own hamster dance.

Why Hamster dance? Because, as classic as it is, it's outdated. We're stuck in a wheel, where it seems like I've seen it all before. The Major Successes. The OK it's good. The Failures. The Failures again. The MAJOR Failures again. The Successes return again. The Highs and Lows. The Pattern in content quality. There are a dozen ways I can metaphor this. I mean... shit! It's defiantly been a real dance, being a Modern Bungie fan.

Ultimately, all of this rabble and effort and emotion and words and ... shit!... it's all about the game play loop. About this game that SHOULD BE (ALWAYS SHOULD BE) so good, but never NEVER EVER can seem to get out of its own dam way! It wins the lotto every time, but it's always two numbers short! SUCK ON THAT RNG, but at this point, it doesn't even feel random. It feels incompetent. And I'm TIRED of it. I'm TIRED of it! I'm so... so ... DONE with this shit. And it CRUSHES my fandom heart. We need to break the wheel without getting dumb and dumber, and with what - keep in mind everything I've said before - I'VE SEEN, it's just too STUPID!

Once we have Sunsetting Kit, WHAT IS THE LOOP ANYMORE!? THERE IS LITTLE TO NO REASON now TO INVEST TIME INTO YOUR KIT! In finding a roll, be it weapon or armor, that complements your style of play! WHY BOTHER INVESTING time into the expanse in MASTERWORKING kit, or polishing your skill with time invested loadouts, when the game even fights ya to do that! #VaultSpace #RatKingRatNest

While yes, it only technically effects endgame stuff... as a long time Destiny player (#D1BetaTester) who trends towards PVE more then PVP, THAT'S MA SHIT! I play stuff where LIGHT matters! Unless Bungie has something hidden in their sleeve, a puzzle piece if you will, involving...say, Patrols or something, LIGHT MATTERS! And all that build up...it's all going to go POOF anyway. And I know, I've had this discussion with some folks already. So let me just fill in so perspective here...

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...I don't play this game to chase shit endlessly, like a hamster. Perhaps it's the RPG guy in me, but I want to get the nice kit, and then have the game change from gathering to building. Bungie is afraid of Power creep? Not sure why, not everything has to get a bump in damage. Anarchy, 1000 Voices, The Scientific Method. It's not JUST ABOUT DAMAGE! It's about FUN NEW WAYS to DELIVER that damage, or... to just.... get this now... PLAY!!!! AND after all, Bungie said themselves... they can't keep adding forever, so whats going to give?

I, myself, would much rather they stopped adding legendary guns and gave us - oh I don't know - ACTUAL CONTENT TO PLAY IN!!!! MORE STRIKES! MORE PVP MAPS! MORE THEN "ONE RAID" A YEAR!? If that's even possible. I don't play this game JUST for loot. There is a PURPOSE in the loot. THe loot is the force multiplier, not the GAME its self! And it feels like Bungie has lost sight of what Content really is.

And hey, if we're going to do this "Sunsetting" AKA Weapon Pool Restrictions, can we just get rid of RNG rolls? At least then Collections might be useful then. Ya know that thing that's been there for over two year that mostly irrelevant! Yeah.

/rant over

I just don’t think it’s a good solution. It conceptually makes sense, it just doesn’t feel good. I would honestly rather them just nerf problem weapons.

They need more creativity in the perk pool. Honestly, if they need to, kill Rampage and Outlaw, because that’s the go to combination. Damage increase perks need to go. When they exist, they start to feel necessary, especially when your last big damage change made everything weaker against mobs.

(...neglect neglect neglect.)

I just don’t think it’s a good solution. It conceptually makes sense, it just doesn’t feel good. I would honestly rather them just nerf problem weapons.

They need more creativity in the perk pool. Honestly, if they need to, kill Rampage and Outlaw, because that’s the go to combination. Damage increase perks need to go. When they exist, they start to feel necessary, especially when your last big damage change made everything weaker against mobs.

Exactly! We're not alone in that clearly, as most of the comments in this fan base are in agreement that this is likely a bad idea. And the more we hear about it, the deal just gets worse... all the time. (ARMOR TOO!?) But it doesn't matter. Bungie can say they are listening all they want, but without a response to the conversation started its just neglect. Listening means nothing if there is no response, and I know of no one who responds well to a cold shoulder. For now it seems the response is (as we have known about this idea since late February)... to put it nicely, "too bad".

It's all of it, so so sad. It doesn't have to be this way.

The perk pool could definitely use a tune up, and I would go so far as to blanket remove raw damage buff perks entirely. Kill Clip or Rampage? Gone, replaced with something else. Vorpal Weapon? Still there, as its boost is conditional, not "raw-m0re-damage-all-the-things".

Now all that time and materials are wasted.

See, that's how I felt going from D1 to D2, and why I eventually stopped playing altogether.

It's FUN to have something to chase, cosmetically or functionally.

It's UNDERSTANDABLE to nerf\buff things as the game goes on and the meta changes

It's NOT FUN to feel like your time has been wasted.

I guess what I'm musing at, is as you are now, so once was I. As a shooter I liked destiny a lot. MP was OK. Raiding was awesome!

Treadmill was not for me.

Loot based weapon systems are just not a good fit for FPS games (or any game where combat is based on skill). There are only so many different types of weapons that can be meaningfully different from each other within the sandbox. What new type of gun could conceivably be created for Destiny that has a role, fits into the sandbox in a balanced way, and is sufficiently different than existing weapon types?

And armor simply has no complexity at all. In fact, a quick look through the list of armor mods lacks even basic ones such as "take less damage from solar sources", etc. Armor is all about protecting yourself right? So why can't you customize your armor to reduce the damage you think you'll be facing? It could even be a double edged sword: "Reduces Solar damage taken, but increases void damage taken" for example.

Part of me thinks that this type of complexity is specifically not wanted, because of the way encounters are designed to be repeated. Strikes, Raids, activities, are all designed to be run over and over for loot. if the game gave you ways to make those encounters significantly easier, or to 'solve' them by using a tailored armor or weapon set, that would destroy the loot loop. But in other games this is fine: learning the tricks and weaknesses of a boss is a wonderful sense of fun and discovery. You work up to that point when you can crush a boss through learning and experimentation. And it doesn't matter, because the boss is not designed to be repeated.

I just don’t think it’s a good solution. It conceptually makes sense, it just doesn’t feel good. I would honestly rather them just nerf problem weapons.

They need more creativity in the perk pool. Honestly, if they need to, kill Rampage and Outlaw, because that’s the go to combination. Damage increase perks need to go. When they exist, they start to feel necessary, especially when your last big damage change made everything weaker against mobs.

But it will just be replaced with whatever the next best perk is. Counterbalance or whatever.

What they really need, and have always needed in my opinion, is perks that don't just straight up make something better. More damage. More range. More stability. These are boring. The perks need to be unique abilities that play into the game's sandbox and change the way you fight. I understand this is limited because your primary means of damaging an enemy is by shooting, but there's probably some room for creativity here. For instance, I feel like something like Icarus (at least theoretically) is on the better side because it can literally change the way you play.

And armor simply has no complexity at all. In fact, a quick look through the list of armor mods lacks even basic ones such as "take less damage from solar sources", etc.

I mean, sure, there are mod concepts that don't exist in Destiny... but you need to look a little more closely if you're gonna complain about missing 'basic' ones.

They took a step backwards with game modifiers in D2. Why are Grounded and Airborne separate modifiers? Why aren’t Brawler and Blackout just one thing? There’s no risk/reward with them separated. Oh, it’s Blackout? Don’t get close to anything. Combine it with Brawler and now you’re enticed to try to get in there, and it makes this like Combination Blow+Assassin’s Cowl or Devour Warlocks extra appealing.

You’re right in that more perks should also work that way. Okay, you have Devour which gives you health on kills, but now you also take increased Void damage, or melee damage, or something. Managing trade offs is far more interesting than just being straight up better.

Rampage+Outlaw is another good example. It’s a combo that shouldn’t be possible. You can have Rampage or you can reload fast, but not both.

I won’t say it’s “easy,” but there are pretty obvious solutions that don’t necessitate taking away my favorite guns. Sure, it means that some highly sought after rolls will go away entirely, but I think it’s a far better solution. They’re always taking our guns away, they might as well use it as opportunity to at least do something interesting.

And armor simply has no complexity at all. In fact, a quick look through the list of armor mods lacks even basic ones such as "take less damage from solar sources", etc.

I mean, sure, there are mod concepts that don't exist in Destiny... but you need to look a little more closely if you're gonna complain about missing 'basic' ones.

Lol. I must have had an old or bad list lol. Thanks.

The guiding principle should to never ever make a perk that is just straight up 100% better than the status quo. Reload faster? Bad perk. Reload faster but get fewer bullets? Maybe that's something to think about. Or else a totally new type of ability that itself has times where you want to use or not use it.

But the ultimate problem is that some things are just more important than others in Destiny, with it being a shooting game. So the perks that increase the most important thing while decreasing a not so important thing will rise to the top. Which is why perks that make anything better are probably not good perks. Perks should make things different. Situational betterness.

This is the last straw for me. Despite all the things I love about this game, it’s been pretty clear to me for months now that Bungie can’t/doesn’t want to make Destiny the kind of game I’ll enjoy anymore.

At this point, I’ve spent hundreds of hours playing activities I don’t enjoy in order to earn weapons I’ll like and take them into the activities I do enjoy. It’s not ideal, but taken on balance I’ve been willing to do it because the point where I get to take my favourite weapons into my favourite activities has been worth it. Weapon sunsetting is a giant “FU” to me and players like me. It’s removing the part of the game I like (USING the weapons I’ve acquired) and replacing it with more of the part of the game I hate (grinding activities I don’t want to play and fighting RNG while using boring weapons in order to get the fun guns I can take into other activities).

The icing on the cake of this whole situation is the bold-faced lie that Bungie is using to justify this whole idea. The “we want to make cool new powerful weapons but we can’t because the current gear is too good” excuse is pure BS. Bungie have already said that that they couldn’t handle 3 pinnacle weapons per SEASON because that’s too much of a strain on the team. They’re not going to replace the our current weapons with new, powerful, exciting gear. We’re going to get more of the same stuff we already have, re-skinned and re-named, with the occasional truly new weapon mixed in. This is not at all about solving a problem for players. It’s about solving a problem for Bungie (how do we make players chance a whole bunch of weapons without taking the time and resources to make new weapons?). I normally couch all my criticisms in a lighthearted frame, but i’m genuinely pissed off at Bungie for even considering this move, much less going ahead with them. It’s a slap in the face. All their “play how you want to play” and “build your own custom monster killing machine” talk is nothing more than PR spin. They can add 80 new Eververse items in a single season with almost no new playable content, while simultaneously telling us about how we’ll be losing all the gear we invested countless hours into acquiring. Well i’m done with them from here on out. No more Destiny, and forget whatever they’re working on next. I’m not interested.

The guiding principle should to never ever make a perk that is just straight up 100% better than the status quo. Reload faster? Bad perk. Reload faster but get fewer bullets? Maybe that's something to think about. Or else a totally new type of ability that itself has times where you want to use or not use it.

Alternatively, random rolls should die. Curated guns solve a lot of these problems too.

- No text -

It’s a real shame. It’s still a great first person shooter. It’s just finally reached the point where that’s not good enough to overcome the bullshit that’s been dragging the game down since day one.

If their next game isn’t an always online loot game, I’ll be interested.

How the mighty have fallen.

- No text -

Come play Deep Rock Galactic! The combat and upgrade systems aren't as deep as Destiny, but they also have never taken away or obsoleted anything I've earned.

How many times can I plug the same non-Destiny game before it gets annoying?

How many times can I plug the same non-Destiny game before it gets annoying?

Ask me about Vanquish.

- No text -

Come play Deep Rock Galactic! The combat and upgrade systems aren't as deep as Destiny, but they also have never taken away or obsoleted anything I've earned.

I mean, they like screwing us Drillers over every other update, but hey, ROCK AND STONE!

How many times can I plug the same non-Destiny game before it gets annoying?

It’s funny. Despite DE working from home for two months, they’ve put out several major updates (including one earlier this week on consoles that made the space combat infinitely more fun) that has done a crazy amount of stuff that I wanted for the game... and most of it is just a preview of the major content coming this year. I played about an hour the other day, and slapped down $45 to continue supporting the team. BRB double XP weekend.

I'm still archiving a bunch of crap in my vault on the off chance that some sandbox change makes me glad I kept it or because it reminds me of fun times past.

More than anything I don't see this as a very big deal*, but if they can't/won't expand the vault maybe this is at least a reason for me to let go of some stuff. It's WON'T, because I'm still too much of a packrat, but IN THEORY.

* 1. SO, end result is that some old items will be less useful than new items if you are in Iron Banner, Trials and new Raids a year from now, right? Or am I missing something? Honest question.
2. Lots of people seem to want them to make a D3 rather than keep working on D2. Won't that be this same problem an order of magnitude larger? I didn't;t like giving up all by stuff in the D1/D2 transition, but I do miss that feeling of hoping for some new hotness.

I'm still archiving a bunch of crap in my vault on the off chance that some sandbox change makes me glad I kept it or because it reminds me of fun times past.

More than anything I don't see this as a very big deal*, but if they can't/won't expand the vault maybe this is at least a reason for me to let go of some stuff. It's WON'T, because I'm still too much of a packrat, but IN THEORY.

* 1. SO, end result is that some old items will be less useful than new items if you are in Iron Banner, Trials and new Raids a year from now, right? Or am I missing something? Honest question.
2. Lots of people seem to want them to make a D3 rather than keep working on D2. Won't that be this same problem an order of magnitude larger? I didn't;t like giving up all by stuff in the D1/D2 transition, but I do miss that feeling of hoping for some new hotness.

To address that last point first, I think the difference with a full blown sequel is that while it may suck to lose your old gear, jumping into a sequel usually entails so much “new” that it feels worthwhile. Plus, a sequel usually comes on the heels of the previous game’s “ending”, which would hopefully leave the player with a sense of completion, which then in turn leads nicely into something of a “fresh start” with a sequel.

To your first point about vault space, this is actually one of my biggest concerns with weapon resetting: the needs of “right now” will override everything else when it comes to how we manage our storage space. I wrote a post a couple months back about jumping into D1 for the first time in a couple years, and what a sour experience it was for me. I booted up the game with the intention of nostalgically revisiting a bunch of my old favourite gear, only to find that I’d been “forced” to delete a bunch of it due to obsolescence-via-sunsetting. Our D1 Vaults were a lot smaller than our D2 vaults, and as such, when faced with the choice between keeping weapons I loved but couldn’t use in endgame content vs new weapons that I needed for endgame content but had no attachment to, I kept the new stuff. Rediscovering this was a disheartening moment. I realized that the D1 I wanted to go back to doesn’t actually exist anymore. Many of the pieces of gear that I remember fondly are gone from my vault, and in their place is a whole collection of mediocre guns that I didn’t even remember existing, which I’d prioritized due to their light level.

This issue extends down into sandbox tuning as well. Using Fatebringer in D1 today isn’t as fun as using Fatebringer in D1Y1 because of the changes that Bungie made to hand cannons over the span of the game. I’m generally in favour of ongoing balance tweaks if they are done with the intention of moving closer and closer to a final conceptual state; a “feel” that the designers were aiming for from the start. But that doesn’t feel like the arch that Destiny is on. To me, it feels more like Tinkering for the sake of tinkering. The game isn’t really any more balanced or refined than it was 5 years ago. They just keep changing things for the sake of changing things. And this has created a situation kinda like George Lucas continuously messing with the Original Trilogy; whatever version of Destiny you prefer, it no longer exists. We might all disagree on which year or season had the most enjoyable sandbox, but most of us are in the same boat; our favourite version of Destiny is already gone, and won’t come back. And for the few players who prefer Destiny as it is right now, they just have to wait until the next update... then they’ll be in the same boat as the rest of us.

* 1. SO, end result is that some old items will be less useful than new items if you are in Iron Banner, Trials and new Raids a year from now, right? Or am I missing something? Honest question.

That depends on how they handle public spaces going forward. Equip some 700 gear and try to play on the moon. What was it like when we first hit the Dreaming City White we were underpowered? The idea that power only matters in end game is one that doesn’t hold true in the game as it is right now. Next fall when the new expansion comes out and the base power level of the new area is 1500, the year old guns that are capped at 1200 aren’t going to be of any use.

The whole thing really falls apart when you talk about Crucible. If they’re ostensibly doing this for “balance,” are they just admitting they don’t give a shit about normal Crucible? It doesn’t actually fix a problem.

2. Lots of people seem to want them to make a D3 rather than keep working on D2. Won't that be this same problem an order of magnitude larger? I didn't;t like giving up all by stuff in the D1/D2 transition, but I do miss that feeling of hoping for some new hotness.

A new game at least has the potential to be worth the trade off, as it gives them the opportunity to start over and maybe do something interesting.

...I realized that the D1 I wanted to go back to doesn’t actually exist anymore. Many of the pieces of gear that I remember fondly are gone from my vault, and in their place is a whole collection of mediocre guns that I didn’t even remember existing, which I’d prioritized due to their light level.

This issue extends down into sandbox tuning as well. Using Fatebringer in D1 today isn’t as fun as using Fatebringer in D1Y1 because of the changes that Bungie made to hand cannons over the span of the game. I’m generally in favour of ongoing balance tweaks if they are done with the intention of moving closer and closer to a final conceptual state; a “feel” that the designers were aiming for from the start. But that doesn’t feel like the arch that Destiny is on. To me, it feels more like Tinkering for the sake of tinkering. The game isn’t really any more balanced or refined than it was 5 years ago. They just keep changing things for the sake of changing things. And this has created a situation kinda like George Lucas continuously messing with the Original Trilogy; whatever version of Destiny you prefer, it no longer exists. We might all disagree on which year or season had the most enjoyable sandbox, but most of us are in the same boat; our favourite version of Destiny is already gone, and won’t come back. And for the few players who prefer Destiny as it is right now, they just have to wait until the next update... then they’ll be in the same boat as the rest of us.

Just a observation. No real big point to give here. I guess, I'm just over here blogging a meandering mind.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

In one of my points which I was trying to extrapolate from in my post/eventual rant, the changing nature - the live game - is something many of us are not accustomed to. For many of us the gameplay loop is; start with nothing -> slowly build to -> full capacity of (be it all or most) kit/perks/powers/upgrades/whatever the game has to offer. As we build in capability, we change how we play the game as the new variables reveal themselves (unless it's Skyrim where all roads invariably lead to stealth archer :P). That, more or less is a fair share of gameplay out there. Mass Effect, Bioshock, Vanquish, Assassins Creed, Titanfall 2, Control... It's rather ubiquitous. And for good reason, it's fun! The system works. And in all of these cases, I can go back and play them as they were, or often with less bugs or more features added post launch.

Then there is World of Warcraft. Again, I've never played it. But, in reading this post, I couldn't help but think about "World of Warcraft Classic". Should we have a Destiny 1 Classic? As I recall, Destiny 1 (once you got through the little content we had), was AWFUL! I recall that as I skipped the launch of Taken King because the ... O_O ... it's easier just to say "Bungie" just kept fumbling so much on everything that I felt a need to write a dam'd dissertation to understand WTF was going on about Year 1. The Taken King was what "Saved" Destiny 1. Is that what you want to go back to?

And yes I know. At first, Destiny has the same loop. It's the loop AFTER that one where everything just keeps getting flipped all topsy-turvy.

...instead of letting us speculate the future of "Destiny The Game" AGAIN ad infinitum. :/

TTK saved the story and loot chasing mechanics.

TTK ruined the sandbox balance. It was perfect in Y1 HoW.

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Thanks for explaining your experience. As someone who enjoys the game for time spent playing with people far more than for the gear I’m far more disappointed by losing folks like you than my guns. Thanks for the good times.

TTK saved the story and loot chasing mechanics.

TTK ruined the sandbox balance. It was perfect in Y1 HoW.

House of Wolves was CLOSE. But man, do you not remember the utter dominance of the exotic hand canons? If they had been toned down JUST A LITTLE BIT, it would have been perfect.

TTK saved the story and loot chasing mechanics.

TTK ruined the sandbox balance. It was perfect in Y1 HoW.

I’m inclined to agree, but this just illustrates what is so strange about this whole situation. D1 was in rough shape in year 1. One could argue that it was on life support. And yet, the D1 that lives in my memory, the game I would want to go back to from time to time, is HoW era D1. My Warlock in full VoG armour, with Fatebringer/Black Hammer/Gjallarhorn being my default loadout, and a full set of VoG weapons in reserve. My Titan wearing a full set of that gorgeous D1Y1 Iron Banner armour and IB weapons, and my Hunter wearing Trials armour and using a complete set of Trials adept weapons. From a “controller in my hands”, “feel of the game” point of view, that was absolute prime D1 for me. And while Taken King and other updates improved many areas of the game (I still think Taken King’s roadmap of Story Missions leading into Open World Exploration which then branches out into a whole web of Strikes and Sidequests which all build and culminate in the Raid was near perfect, and they haven’t really nailed it since), Taken King was also the moment when I first felt like part of what I already loved about Destiny was taken away, and it’s never quite returned.

I now have a similar feeling about D2 as well. For me, despite all the problems that existed at the time, D2 was at its most fun for me just over a year ago (season of the Drifter era). That’s when combat in the game was as fun as it’s ever been, IMO. And then the parade of nerfs started to hit. Season of Opulance had some really cool stuff, but I was once again experiencing that feeling of loss within the game. Like what made it special had been intentionally stripped away, and it’s been a near-vertical downhill slide since then.

TTK saved the story and loot chasing mechanics.

TTK ruined the sandbox balance. It was perfect in Y1 HoW.

I’m inclined to agree, but this just illustrates what is so strange about this whole situation. D1 was in rough shape in year 1. One could argue that it was on life support. And yet, the D1 that lives in my memory, the game I would want to go back to from time to time, is HoW era D1. My Warlock in full VoG armour, with Fatebringer/Black Hammer/Gjallarhorn being my default loadout, and a full set of VoG weapons in reserve. My Titan wearing a full set of that gorgeous D1Y1 Iron Banner armour and IB weapons, and my Hunter wearing Trials armour and using a complete set of Trials adept weapons. From a “controller in my hands”, “feel of the game” point of view, that was absolute prime D1 for me. And while Taken King and other updates improved many areas of the game (I still think Taken King’s roadmap of Story Missions leading into Open World Exploration which then branches out into a whole web of Strikes and Sidequests which all build and culminate in the Raid was near perfect, and they haven’t really nailed it since), Taken King was also the moment when I first felt like part of what I already loved about Destiny was taken away, and it’s never quite returned.

This sums up my feelings pretty perfectly.

I now have a similar feeling about D2 as well. For me, despite all the problems that existed at the time, D2 was at its most fun for me just over a year ago (season of the Drifter era). That’s when combat in the game was as fun as it’s ever been, IMO. And then the parade of nerfs started to hit. Season of Opulance had some really cool stuff, but I was once again experiencing that feeling of loss within the game. Like what made it special had been intentionally stripped away, and it’s been a near-vertical downhill slide since then.

I mostly agree with you. I actually really liked the Moon. If it had been that without the seasonal BS and nerfs, I think that this year could have been good.

TTK saved the story and loot chasing mechanics.

TTK ruined the sandbox balance. It was perfect in Y1 HoW.

House of Wolves was CLOSE. But man, do you not remember the utter dominance of the exotic hand canons? If they had been toned down JUST A LITTLE BIT, it would have been perfect.

*tries to hide Thorn behind my back*

I don't know what you're talking about. The game was PERFECTLY BALANCED

TTK saved the story and loot chasing mechanics.

TTK ruined the sandbox balance. It was perfect in Y1 HoW.

House of Wolves was CLOSE. But man, do you not remember the utter dominance of the exotic hand canons? If they had been toned down JUST A LITTLE BIT, it would have been perfect.

I remember the (un)Holy Trinity of Thorn, Last Word, and Hawkmoon absolutely devastating everything else... until Trials rolled in, and I got The Messenger :)

Thing is, as dominant as those hand cannons were, they kept special weapons in check. Taken King was where Bungie really leaned into the idea that primary weapons all needed to have super specific engagement distances, which basically turned them all into less effective special weapons. So Scout Rifles were only useful at sniper ranges, but they lost to sniper rifles. ARs were only good at Fusion Rifle ranges, but lost to fusion rifles, etc. And that’s how Destiny Crucible has played ever since, with a few temporary exceptions. D2 crucible was it’s own unique can on worms when it launched, but by the time the weapon slot changes were implemented, special weapons began to dominate again. A few months later, Luna’s Howl and Not Forgotten came along, and we were kinda back to the D1Y1 days where these couple of hand cannons were dominating all other primaries, but at least they were also keeping special weapons in check. And once again, Bungie’s near-religious fear of “power creep” lead them to nerf 2 of the only truly effective primary weapons in the game, rather than bringing other primaries up to their level. And whadayouknow, we’re back into a crucible sandbox utterly dominated by special weapons. This season, the auto rifle buff has actually brought them up to a good level, and once again I was enjoying a sandbox where I could get the majority of my kills with my primary weapon. But it won’t last. Bungie will nerf auto rifles into the ground in the next update, and we’ll be back to snipers and shotguns running rampant. And so the cycle goes. Bungie just doesn’t seem to recognize that more often than not, these “outlier”, “overpowered” primary weapons are actually the few primaries sitting in a good spot, or very close to it.

This would be funny, except this is exactly what's happening right now.

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I mean, they like screwing us Drillers over every other update, but hey, ROCK AND STONE!

I think we all know the plasma charger needed a nerf. And you're the only ones with C4 now, so no complaining from you!

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TTK saved the story and loot chasing mechanics.

TTK ruined the sandbox balance. It was perfect in Y1 HoW.

House of Wolves was CLOSE. But man, do you not remember the utter dominance of the exotic hand canons? If they had been toned down JUST A LITTLE BIT, it would have been perfect.

I remember the (un)Holy Trinity of Thorn, Last Word, and Hawkmoon absolutely devastating everything else... until Trials rolled in, and I got The Messenger :)

Thing is, as dominant as those hand cannons were, they kept special weapons in check. Taken King was where Bungie really leaned into the idea that primary weapons all needed to have super specific engagement distances, which basically turned them all into less effective special weapons. So Scout Rifles were only useful at sniper ranges, but they lost to sniper rifles. ARs were only good at Fusion Rifle ranges, but lost to fusion rifles, etc.

As a result of this though, hand cannons were by and large the best primaries to use in nearly every situation. Even legendary ones. You never saw scout or autos, and only occasionally pulses like Messenger. But at the end of the day, we may not have had complete balance, but we had FUN. And you always choose fun over balance.

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TTK saved the story and loot chasing mechanics.

TTK ruined the sandbox balance. It was perfect in Y1 HoW.

House of Wolves was CLOSE. But man, do you not remember the utter dominance of the exotic hand canons? If they had been toned down JUST A LITTLE BIT, it would have been perfect.

I remember the (un)Holy Trinity of Thorn, Last Word, and Hawkmoon absolutely devastating everything else... until Trials rolled in, and I got The Messenger :)

Thing is, as dominant as those hand cannons were, they kept special weapons in check. Taken King was where Bungie really leaned into the idea that primary weapons all needed to have super specific engagement distances, which basically turned them all into less effective special weapons. So Scout Rifles were only useful at sniper ranges, but they lost to sniper rifles. ARs were only good at Fusion Rifle ranges, but lost to fusion rifles, etc.

As a result of this though, hand cannons were by and large the best primaries to use in nearly every situation. Even legendary ones. You never saw scout or autos, and only occasionally pulses like Messenger. But at the end of the day, we may not have had complete balance, but we had FUN. And you always choose fun over balance.

Good lord, your memory is selective.

Mida NEVER stopped being great in PvP in D1. It was powerful in the early days, it was powerful when we stopped playing, it was powerful all the way through. I went back through my late D1 saved vids, and Tlaloc dominated my crucible highlights. I used pulses more than autos, but my Soulstealer's Claw has a couple of thousand crucible kills on it.

Your use of words like 'never' make me CRAZY. I saw scouts and autos in nearly every game. I saw almost EVERY weapon type in nearly every game.

Tlaloc dominated my crucible highlights.

Wow, that's amazing you had access to Tlaloc in House of Wolves! And yeah, MIDA got good… AFTER HOUSE OF WOLVES. The context of my statement was in the House of Wolves meta.

Tlaloc dominated my crucible highlights.

Wow, that's amazing you had access to Tlaloc in House of Wolves! And yeah, MIDA got good… AFTER HOUSE OF WOLVES. The context of my statement was in the House of Wolves meta.

Okay, I don't remember when Tlaloc dropped - but Mida was good IN YEAR 1.

Seriously. Mida was basically always top tier as far as I can recall.

I’ve long been an advocate for just playing Destiny for fun and ignoring loot. That’s counter to the base design of Destiny, but it largely worked to make the bullshit inherent to Destiny feel less bad.

However, loot is obviously and important motivator for parts of Destiny. The season I got both Luna’s Howl and The Recluse was some of the most fun I’ve had in the game, and the season that taught me to love the Crucible. That journey was worth it for its own sake, but it’s also a journey I would not have undertaken if those guns weren’t at the end of it. Likewise, Loaded Question is one of my favorite guns in the entire series, and that’s a journey I absolutely would not have undertaken if the gun wasn’t there. Why would I continue to go on those journeys for weapons with a limited lifespan? Hell, I think Luna’s Howl was basically a year old when I actually got it.

While I’ve personally had to quit trying to cheat certain things to avoid the feeling of grind, I do think the rewarding weapons can work really well to push players to try things they otherwise might not. My Crucible journey for Luna’s and Recluse is the perfect example. It’s something I would never do again for gear with an expiration date.

And what if old activities. Forges will now reward gear that’s functionality useless. So will Reckoning. Will world drops even from old locations like The Dreaming City be updated to drop new weapons, or is it just not worth going there at all anymore?

All good points. Just to add to your post, one of the many problems that I have with this whole sunsetting idea is that it will directly remove gameplay variety from D2. The weapons we choose to equip are, in a way, additional nodes on our skill tree. Playing the game while equipping Revoker, Hardlight, and a sword is a very different gameplay experience from equipping Mountaintop, Recluse, and Line in the Sand. And while there is a great deal of overlap between many of the guns in D2, some of them are quite unique. Luna’s Howl and Not Forgotten sit in a category all their own. Even after their nerfs, they are the only 150rpms that handle and feel like 180s. They’re not my favourite hand cannons purely because of their effectiveness... they’re the only hand cannons that feel and hit like they do, and when they’re gone, that’s it. There go the only hand cannons in the game that I really enjoy using. (Unless Bungie goes and replaces them with a “new” hand cannon that feels and performs just like LH and NF, to which I would say “then wtf is the point of sunsetting, other than adding MORE needless grind?”). Or how about Mountaintop? There is no other weapon in the game like it. Martyr’s Retribution is similarly unique. There are plenty of more subtle examples too. Bygones is the only adaptive frame Pulse Rifle in the kinetic slot. Randy’s Throwing Knife is the only Scout Rifle that does what it does. The list goes on.
These guns are often the centrepieces of our entire builds and play styles. They are where the gameplay variety in D2 comes from. Let’s face it, there are no encounters in the Destiny franchise on the level of the 3 scarab battles in Halo 3, or warthog sections on Earth in Halo 2, or the hot landing at the beginning of Silent Cartographer in Halo 1. 99% of the content in Destiny 2 is dull and repetitive by comparison, until you start to add the weapon variety into the mix. Halo has Scorpion Tanks, Destiny has Sleeper Simulant. Halo had Warthog Chased, Destiny had Fatebringer. Taking away our ability to use the guns we want to use, in the activities we want to play, essentially kills my ability to “play for fun”. Because for me, fighting D2’s enemies with most of the guns in the game isn’t fun. Fighting them with my favourite custom loadouts is. But Bungie just can’t let us do that anymore, can they?

I’ve long been an advocate for just playing Destiny for fun and ignoring loot. That’s counter to the base design of Destiny, but it largely worked to make the bullshit inherent to Destiny feel less bad.

However, loot is obviously and important motivator for parts of Destiny. The season I got both Luna’s Howl and The Recluse was some of the most fun I’ve had in the game, and the season that taught me to love the Crucible. That journey was worth it for its own sake, but it’s also a journey I would not have undertaken if those guns weren’t at the end of it. Likewise, Loaded Question is one of my favorite guns in the entire series, and that’s a journey I absolutely would not have undertaken if the gun wasn’t there. Why would I continue to go on those journeys for weapons with a limited lifespan? Hell, I think Luna’s Howl was basically a year old when I actually got it.

While I’ve personally had to quit trying to cheat certain things to avoid the feeling of grind, I do think the rewarding weapons can work really well to push players to try things they otherwise might not. My Crucible journey for Luna’s and Recluse is the perfect example. It’s something I would never do again for gear with an expiration date.

And what if old activities. Forges will now reward gear that’s functionality useless. So will Reckoning. Will world drops even from old locations like The Dreaming City be updated to drop new weapons, or is it just not worth going there at all anymore?

I'm not really in the Destiny scene much anymore. But I guess I just want to add a couple notes to this. As someone who worked for and loves Loaded Question, I will be disappointed when I can't use it to its full effectiveness in the future. My two points to this is that We can still use it for anything that isn't really Light oriented. So no more raiding with it... but most other things like roaming the world we can still use it! And then my second point is that this will really depend on what kinda of new pinnacle weapons they create and also how hard they are to get. If they still make interesting weapons that aren't REALLY hard to get in a season, I could be okay with this.

I just don’t buy that as a good excuse. High level activities are the bulk of what you’re expected to do in Destiny. You can’t power up any other way, you can’t get Masterworking materials any other way. Like, great, I can go shoot some dregs on EDZ with my old weapons. Hurray! It’s a technicality that allows them to say that they’re not actually taking our gear away, they’re just taking it way from any activity that’s actually worth doing.

I just don’t buy that as a good excuse. High level activities are the bulk of what you’re expected to do in Destiny. You can’t power up any other way, you can’t get Masterworking materials any other way. Like, great, I can go shoot some dregs on EDZ with my old weapons. Hurray! It’s a technicality that allows them to say that they’re not actually taking our gear away, they’re just taking it way from any activity that’s actually worth doing.

I'm not saying it's an excuse. And honestly It's hard for me approach what you are feeling about what they are doing to your pinnacle weapons. I can at least partially understand that. But what I'm saying is that this new way of doing things still allows you to play with a gun for a whole year at high level activities. After that, you can use it for everything past high level activities (or keep using it at a slight disadvantage).

They drop the light level of guns every season, but a single gun from release to dropping of light level is a year. I honestly can't think of a legendary gun I've used for a whole year due to meta and changes. Exotics? Sure, I've used several for more than a year, but they aren't going to be affected. I love my breakneak, but I honestly have changed auto rifles, my favorite type of weapon, at least once a year. And I honestly will probably change from my breakneak.

I know pinnacle weapons are different and they definitely will have to change how they are gotten to make it less of a heartbreak to separate from them for high level activities.

Almost every gun I use regularly is from Forsaken. Bygones and Trust are my go-to weapons. Nothing feels a good as they do to me. Hell, I use that Y1 Nightfall auto rifle all the time.

Those aren’t problem weapons by any measure, but they’re still being taken away because Bungie can’t be bothered to intelligently design Pinnacle weapon perks that aren’t broken.

I actually kinda miss the Thorn meta. Which maybe speaks to how Destiny isnt the pvp game for me. But I really liked the balanced playing field in Trials. Everyone had the same shit, which really made it a game of positioning, communication and skill.

The first (pre-crota, shotgun/AR meta) and second (post-crota, fusion/HC meta) sandboxes were also a tonne of fun, mind. And remember when they made shotguns actually viable in PvE for like 10 minutes?!?!

It just got even better in TTK.

I also saw Scouts, Handcannons and ARs in ever game outside of Trials. Pulses less so but they were around for sure (Red death says hi)

So it didnt exist

And remember when they made shotguns actually viable in PvE for like 10 minutes?!?!

I remember it was single-handedly responsible for my first relaxed VoG run. Every run before the shotgun buff was frantic as hell for me, even with good fusion rifles.

I actually kinda miss the Thorn meta. Which maybe speaks to how Destiny isnt the pvp game for me. But I really liked the balanced playing field in Trials. Everyone had the same shit, which really made it a game of positioning, communication and skill.

Except for all the people who didn't have Thorn, or hated hand cannons. Which was this guy right here. So that was an especially trying time for me.

Agree with this. Gunplay was never more boring for me than when my loadout never changed during forsaken. Nothing could touch my feeding frenzy / rampage blast furnace. But damn if the repetition didnt get old. I guess I'm not as much of a creature of habit as others here.

I'm enjoying having multiple viable loadout now, part of that is due to the refresh of y1 guns with new perks (feeding frenzy / multikill clip last hope anyone? Yes please.)

Sun setting armor seems unnecessary to me. The mod option was enough to make someone decide if it was worth keeping that piece of masterwork armor around. It takes me forever to masterwork things because the shards are hard for me to get (just dont get the chance to run high lvl strikes much given the tiny size of the ps4 clan and my schedule).