From reddit:

Backup Mag
Increases magazine.

Freehand Grip
Increases accuracy and ready speed while firing from the hip.

Icarus Grip
Improves accuracy while airborne.

Targeting Adjuster
This weapon gains better target acquisition.

Radar Tuner
Radar immediately returns when you stop aiming down sights.

Minor Spec
Deals extra damage against rank-and-file enemies.

Major Spec
Deals extra damage against powerful enemies.

Counterbalance Stock
Reduces recoil deviation for the weapon.

Boss Spec
Deals extra damage against bosses and vehicles.

Also, elemental mods are going away. The element type on Y1 weapons will be locked to whatever element is currently equipped when the patch hits, so make multiples of you want to, or set it up with your element of choice.

Also, elemental mods are going away. The element type on Y1 weapons will be locked to whatever element is currently equipped when the patch hits, so make multiples of you want to, or set it up with your element of choice.

I had NOT clocked this. Damn. Good intel.

PS - Super glad you got your first taste of DBO LAN magic. Looking forward to catching you at a future one.

Also, elemental mods are going away. The element type on Y1 weapons will be locked to whatever element is currently equipped when the patch hits, so make multiples of you want to, or set it up with your element of choice.

Yep. I'm going to be watching my drops over the next few weeks to try and build up some duplicate energy and power Y1 weapons...

I dunno, these seem ‘boring’ to me. The Icarus one is a good start, but the rest merely make some aspect of the weapon better, rather than giving you a new tool in your arsenal to use in cool ways.

Sidearms with the Icarus mod though… PvP destruction.

Hamrick just posted on Twitter the fixed element for Y1 weapons will be global for Collections, so it's possible the one you save would not be the same as the one in your Collection.

They may seem pretty vanilla, but at least at first glance they are all useful. Deciding which ones you want in which situations will not be trivial (and will very likely be personal preference) and that's certainly more interesting than what we have now.

Plus they seem to be more about rounding out or honing your weapon for a playstyle. And the interest comes from the random perks.

What’s that mean? Bungie is just going to decide weapon by weapon and assign a set element?

To be clear, I don’t actually care. Hopefully Y2 weapons are interesting enough to keep me from digging back into Y1 stuff.

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Matching elemental damage to enemy shield type regenerates the round in the magazine.

So you can basically take down shields for “free.”

Did I see something about 1-hit shoulder charge? Finally, Bungie realizes shoulder charge is useless if it can't 1-hit.

All 3 existing Shoulder Charge melees are OHk, yes. Some other melees have also had damage increases, but have not been stated as one shot, as not of them have the level of risk so don’t merit the same level of reward. Or at least that was the waves I got. Apparently they weren’t OHK before due to the overall melee nerf. Thankfully that’s fixed.

"Mod stacking is no longer limited to specific classes, aka any class can stack 5 nade mods."

This means that the 3x limit on stacks has been changed as well? I must have missed that somewhere.

Fun Police is gonna be a lot more fun.

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They stated a 5x stack would be 60-70% reduction. Which puts grenades at 33-25 seconds. Currently the only way to get Grenades at 25-ish seconds is Hallowfire Heart. So yeah. Maximum fun police.

I would like to apologize to no one in particular for how much Fun Policing I was doing on my Nightstalker last night. It was to help a friend get super kills. It was hard enough I cause a full fireteam to quit out of a match.

You say useless. I say it's my primary form of attack. Shoulder Charge + Flame Titan + ACD/0 Feedback Fence = A LOT of melee kills and a couple of fun burn out kills per match. If I shoulder charge someone and they punch me back then they are almost always dead.

I appreciate that it will be easier to kill people... but Bungie is compressing some of the fun nuance away by doing these huge Destiny 1 type regressions. :(

You say useless. I say it's my primary form of attack. Shoulder Charge + Flame Titan + ACD/0 Feedback Fence = A LOT of melee kills and a couple of fun burn out kills per match. If I shoulder charge someone and they punch me back then they are almost always dead.

I appreciate that it will be easier to kill people... but Bungie is compressing some of the fun nuance away by doing these huge Destiny 1 type regressions. :(

For people like me, this is bringing the fun back. All that happens now if I try to shoulder carge is I get killed by bullets. The feedback fence might allow me to get more trades I suppose but I haven’t enjoyed crucible enough since Destiny 2 to play it anyway.

And if I have to have the Fences to make it viable I lose out on running Doomfang or Skullfort or something that supports a different side of play like the War Rig.

Isn’t that a positive? Pick your play style and lean into it?

Now we’re moving in a direction where everything, every piece of armor, every perk, and every weapon matters less because everything will either kill instantly or kill much more quickly. I keep reminding myself that I played a lot of Crucible in Destiny 1, but I really feel Bungie is moving the combat in a direction that will see me play much much less.

If I had wanted to play a game with a near instant time to kill I would have bought one...

If I had wanted to play a game with a near instant time to kill I would have bought one...

And you did. It was the first Destn *sniped*

-respawn-

As I was saying, it was the first *rocket explosion*

-respawn-

Aw geeze, The first *shotgun blast*

-respawn-

Destiny! The Fir *un-nerfed Thorn...uh Sound*

-respawn-

...bah. You get the I...*Titan Shoulder Charge*

/2¢

If I had wanted to play a game with a near instant time to kill I would have bought one...

And you did. It was the first Destn *sniped*

-respawn-

As I was saying, it was the first *rocket explosion*

-respawn-

Aw geeze, The first *shotgun blast*

-respawn-

Destiny! The Fir *un-nerfed Thorn...uh Sound*

-respawn-

...bah. You get the I...*Titan Shoulder Charge*

/2¢

Yeah, I can't wait for one person to steam roll an entire team again... that will be great. I love that feeling.

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Query: If you don’t want a near-instant TTK, why are you running a build designed to play into natural reactions to net you a near instant TTK?

But my ability to get value out of currently underperforming Exotics that I would love to run in crucible, but are inherently useless in the current sandbox (of which there are a fair few) sounds more like picking my playstyle and leaning into it, personally. And I don’t see how adjusting melee to allow you to lean even harder into the effects of the Fences is inherently bad.

To me this is a case of a developer leaning into what their core game mechanics support best, which is something developers should do. Fortnite is in the worst state it has ever been because they keep grinding off the parts that make it stand out and the parts that make the game interesting. But I find that - other than fears of playlist saturation - Quake Champions is getting better by continuing to focus on the traditional arena experience first and foremost, allowing the modern Hero-Shooter elements to just be flavor.

Query: If you don’t want a near-instant TTK, why are you running a build designed to play into natural reactions to net you a near instant TTK?

Because I think there should be several synergistic builds you can aim for that demonstrate a mastery of load out and skill. By starting with a long TTK and allowing players who understand the game the best to lower it significantly by both their gear and actions you create a more nuanced and adaptive game.

If you just set all TTK's to almost 0 you don't do that. It starts to almost not even matter what gun or armor you are using when every melee battle ends before the enemy can react. When every gun battle ends before the enemy can even aim down the sights what does gun selection even matter?

Strategy, adaptability, retreat... all will be much less possible when your enemy's first attack instantly kills you. Take my The Wall Upon With EVERYTHING Breaks video. Under the new rules, the Titan I shoulder charged might have very well traded kills with me (generally if I'm low on health with the current rules, it probably means I'd be dead under the new Forsaken ones) meaning the next three Guardians I killed based on knowing my armor, weapons, and abilities would not have happened.

It's that kind of thing I'm very much afraid of. That the game is going to move much more towards dying instantly over and over again to someone with a shotgun rather than more protracted battles where things like skill, map knowledge, and load out actually matters.

Fortnite is in the worst state it has ever been because they keep grinding off the parts that make it stand out and the parts that make the game interesting.

Just curious which parts you're referring to?

The crimes they have committed to the building mechanics, either intentionally or unintentionally, in recent patches.

The crimes they have committed to the building mechanics, either intentionally or unintentionally, in recent patches.

See that doesn't affect me because I don't build!

Because I think there should be several synergistic builds you can aim for that demonstrate a mastery of load out and skill. By starting with a long TTK and allowing players who understand the game the best to lower it significantly by both their gear and actions you create a more nuanced and adaptive game.

I would live if that were the case in practice, but that hasn’t shown in general to function in practice with Destiny’s Sandbox. Destiny 2 has a general lack of synergizing. And not knowing your definition of nuanced and adaptive I would hesitate to comment on it. Because I feel that the changes shown are going to make for more nuance and adaption.

If you just set all TTK's to almost 0 you don't do that. It starts to almost not even matter what gun or armor you are using when every melee battle ends before the enemy can react. When every gun battle ends before the enemy can even aim down the sights what does gun selection even matter?

Setting a small subset of high risk/high reward options, or alternatively low sustainability burst damage, to have a near 0 TTK is different than setting everything to that. And the reason you pick your gun should be a combination of ease of use and range considerations. If all guns have a slow TTK it starts to not even matter to the same tune, no? If a shoulder charge ends before they can react then I have successfully used my toolset to get an advantage. Choosing to engage in melee range is also a player choice which may be a mistake they make.

. . . Under the new rules, the Titan I shoulder charged might have very well traded kills with me . . .

Except that the Titan you shoulder charged, given the context, would have instead done no damage to you. And you would have had full health going into the further engagement. That Titan would have also needed to should charge you at the same time, and I don’t know of any case examples of how that plays out.

It's that kind of thing I'm very much afraid of. That the game is going to move much more towards dying instantly over and over again to someone with a shotgun rather than more protracted battles where things like skill, map knowledge, and load out actually matters.

In the better examples of low TTK games though Skill (i.e., twitch skill), Map Knowledge (from layout, to travel times, to flank routes and popular weapon use per area), and gear selection (spec., playing to the strengths of your gear) matter substantially more than people tend to give them credit. And I would also include maneuvering, map usage, and other non-twitch skills to also being important.

I enjoy games where I can have a sustained 1v1 or what have you where a combination of health and weapon management wins out, I play Quake Champions when I want to get sweaty. But i also like games that reward my skillset focused on out playing around the engagement and not just when bullets fly. (Yes, QC has that too, but differently focused)

Isn’t that a positive? Pick your play style and lean into it?

I'm with you. It's honestly the one thing I wish Destiny encouraged a lot more. I think it does, for what it's worth, but it never seems drastic enough for me to really dig into everything and find something that works. I just play with what I have and it never seems to matter all that much what I'm using. I think that can also be a strength, too, but I'd love to see more meaningful diversity.

I had a discussion on the subreddit the other day. Everyone is pissed about elemental modifiers going away, but I celebrate it. And I think it comes down to meaningful and interesting choices. When you can switch elements so cheaply and easily, they might as well just remove that entire aspect of the game, because it no longer matters. I am actually really looking forward to not necessarily having an ideal weapon with the right elemental damage type. Do I switch to my Sidearm, because it's the only thing I currently have to match the void shields, or do I keep running that solar Scout Rifle so I can keep my distance? That's much more interesting than stopping for ten seconds to make that solar Scout Rifle into a void Scout Rifle and rolling on through. I desperately want to see more tactical trade-offs in Destiny. And while elemental damage and modifiers aren't a huge deal either way, I think it's a step in that direction.

Not too mention, having easily selectable elemental modifiers makes Hard Light and Borealis nearly useless as exotics.

Sorry, special case here: EP shotgun and sniper get locked to solar to prevent Tractor Cannon stacking!

— Greg C Peng (@gregcpeng) August 9, 2018

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I personally haven’t noticed. Then again I’m not a great builder. Good building is still required at high level play.

Yep. The loss of elemental modifiers has made it so that Hard Light is 100% going to be in my initial Forsaken loadout. I've always enjoyed its flexibility... and now it's going to be even more flexible compared to my other guns.

Query: If you don’t want a near-instant TTK, why are you running a build designed to play into natural reactions to net you a near instant TTK?

Because I think there should be several synergistic builds you can aim for that demonstrate a mastery of load out and skill. By starting with a long TTK and allowing players who understand the game the best to lower it significantly by both their gear and actions you create a more nuanced and adaptive game.

If you just set all TTK's to almost 0 you don't do that. It starts to almost not even matter what gun or armor you are using when every melee battle ends before the enemy can react. When every gun battle ends before the enemy can even aim down the sights what does gun selection even matter?

Strategy, adaptability, retreat... all will be much less possible when your enemy's first attack instantly kills you. Take my The Wall Upon With EVERYTHING Breaks video. Under the new rules, the Titan I shoulder charged might have very well traded kills with me (generally if I'm low on health with the current rules, it probably means I'd be dead under the new Forsaken ones) meaning the next three Guardians I killed based on knowing my armor, weapons, and abilities would not have happened.

It's that kind of thing I'm very much afraid of. That the game is going to move much more towards dying instantly over and over again to someone with a shotgun rather than more protracted battles where things like skill, map knowledge, and load out actually matters.

But Destiny has never delivered particularly deep, protracted PvP battles (not a knock against Destiny... just a comment).

The TTK has always been quick enough that if you sustain any damage during an engagement, your chances of being picked off by another opponent a moment later are extremely high. Especially in a game where most game types are 6v6 on small maps.

That’s why an emphasis on faster TTK actually rewards skilled players. It puts the emphasis on the initial ability to target and aim quickly. Since taking any damage at all is such a huge disadvantage when dealing with multiple opponents, a fast TTK swings the advantage back towards the player who is able to aim and shoot faster than everyone else. It also makes knowledge of map layout and sight lines MORE important, not less.

Now, I’d be equally in favour of pushing Destiny in the other direction; longer battles, with more tactical gameplay and mechanical variety. I love games like that too. A perfect example is (drum roll...) Titanfall! Titan vs Titan combat in that series is highly rewarding to strategic positioning and thoughtful use of each Titan’s unique abilities, knowledge of each class’ strengths and weaknesses, etc. But in Destiny, the 3 classes really aren’t that different, and their abilities aren’t impactful enough to steer the combat in meaningful ways most of the time. And in the rare circumstances where they are impactful, they’re on such long cooldowns that they rarely get the opportunity to shine.

The reality of Destiny PvP is that abilities are a minor part of the mix. It doesn’t matter how good I get with grenades or barricades or shoulder charges, none of that is going to come close to matching the 20-30 kills that I get every single control match using Graviton Lance. I’ll get another 5-7 kills with supers, maybe 1 grenade kill if I’m lucky.

My point is that Destiny is far far closer to the quick TTK, twitch shooter end of the spectrum than it is to the methodical, tactical combat side of the gameplay spectrum. So if it’s going to lean into it’s strengths, I think going slightly faster is the more logical choice.

My point is that Destiny is far far closer to the quick TTK, twitch shooter end of the spectrum than it is to the methodical, tactical combat side of the gameplay spectrum. So if it’s going to lean into it’s strengths, I think going slightly faster is the more logical choice.

I get your point and I agree that it is closer in that spectrum. But why does it have to go even farther? Is there a reason why it needs to be faster? Is Destiny broken as it is now?

You say that a faster TTK is a strength for a game like this. But I would say because we have said abilities that it doesn't need faster TTK. I would prefer if we stayed right where we are and slightly buff those abilities instead. We don't have to swing into full on tactical because we are already on the TTK side as it is. I just don't want to go full on TTK either.

Is there a reason why it needs to be faster? Is Destiny broken as it is now?

In a lot of ways to a lot of the players base the short answer: Yes.

A lot of what Bungie mentions when they talk about balancing in D2 is "hero moments" (i.e., your opportunity to do something that is both exciting and impactful to your team/individual performance) and while D1 was full of them for most of its life because of overall game tempo and the capability of the sandbox (see, Golden Triangle) that is not something D2 has had pretty much ever. Maybe if you pop your super at a really good time. Or like out with a rocket. Or every so often you catch a few enemies trying to make a play who are unprepared for how you approached them.

In D1 I had hero moments almost every single game, and a large part of that was lethality. The other side of that was ability frequency - which I'm still not sure is where I'd personally (or the broader community though I don't speak for them) want it. The loss of Int/Dis/Str for a lot of players was a disappointment. Yes, that was a response to community feedback about wanting to make it a more "primary focused game" but doing that pushes you further to a one-gun-game than ensuring a broader toolset is viable. I think D2 has spent most of its life without a viable broader toolset. It's a Golden Triangle with one point and 2 ground-off nubs.

I don't mean to sound dismissive if I do. You have valid concerns for changes to a game you are currently enjoying. I do currently enjoy the state of Crucible, but I also am more excited by these changes than by the existing state of Crucible myself.

My point is that Destiny is far far closer to the quick TTK, twitch shooter end of the spectrum than it is to the methodical, tactical combat side of the gameplay spectrum. So if it’s going to lean into it’s strengths, I think going slightly faster is the more logical choice.

I get your point and I agree that it is closer in that spectrum. But why does it have to go even farther? Is there a reason why it needs to be faster? Is Destiny broken as it is now?

You say that a faster TTK is a strength for a game like this. But I would say because we have said abilities that it doesn't need faster TTK. I would prefer if we stayed right where we are and slightly buff those abilities instead. We don't have to swing into full on tactical because we are already on the TTK side as it is. I just don't want to go full on TTK either.

I don’t think they necessarily have to do anything... ever since Vigilance Wing and Graviton Lance rose to supremecy, I think the crucible has become far more enjoyable. If I had to guess, I suspect Bungie wants to bring a wider range of primary weapons in line so those 2 exotics don’t completely dominate the way they do now. I don’t think a wider variety of equally effective weapons is a bad thing.

As far as the other tweaks go, they seem reasonable to me, in theory. Shoulder charge is already almost useless. At least if it can score a 1-hit kill, it will open the possibility of a surprise attack chaining into a larger engagement , rather than the charger being instantly gunned down.
It is a slippery slope, though. I found the rampant ability spam in D1 to be very frustrating. It was a game that leaned too heavily towards providing easy ways for players to get kills without properly earning them (ie actually beating their opponent in combat). There were so many grenades that tracked or had huge AOEs, burning effects, and insta-kill supers that required almost no skill to use.

So I just think that if Bungie wants to make space magic a big part of PvP without turning the crucible into a complete shit show, they’d need to completely rethink the TTK (ie slow it waaaaay down), amplify the differences between the classes, provide more complex maps... basically make a different game.

Shoulder charge is already almost useless.

[Citation Needed]. :p

Shoulder charge is already almost useless.

[Citation Needed]. :p

“Shoulder charge is already almost useless.”
—CruelLEGACEY, DBO Forum post, August 10, 2018

Or, you know, my post back up thataway. ^

Or basically any clip of someone using it that doesn't involve the Fences as a finisher on someone a friendly was already shooting.

What’s that mean? Bungie is just going to decide weapon by weapon and assign a set element?

Yeah that's the way I read it:

https://twitter.com/Josh_Hamrick/status/1027457635161784320

The idea, assuming no bugs prevent us from doing this, is that whatever the last mod you had put in would remain... then collections would always give you the new locked damage type for that specific weapon.

I get your point and I agree that it is closer in that spectrum. But why does it have to go even farther? Is there a reason why it needs to be faster? Is Destiny broken as it is now?

Fast TTK generally creates a more dynamic 'wet and wild' game. With long TTKs, there is more time for things to even out so that the higher skill player always wins an engagement. Upsets in gunfights are less likely.

Destiny has always been a more 'casual' competitive FPS, so this makes perfect sense.