From the Update | I Feel the NEED...

From the Bungie Update:

We’ve begun playtesting a series of changes that you will have in your hands in the next few months. Sandbox is lovingly begun to refer to this series of changes as the “Go Fast Update.” These are the changes we are currently playtesting. They’re not guaranteed to ship, but the outlook is good at this point.

Our goals for this round are to provide individual players with more hero moments by increasing overall speed and mobility, increasing the amount of supers you charge to demolish your enemies, and increasing the frequency and impact of our most montage worthy power weapons, especially in the Crucible.
Here’s what we’re doing:

All three glides plus Catapult and Strafe Lift have been retuned and buffed to >make them more unique and faster.

The mobility stat has had its range expanded and been completely retuned as well. In short, everyone gets faster and the high end is higher.

The players’ ground speed cap has been increased, allowing for faster total movement speed, regardless of how you may get there.

Arcstrider, Sentinel, and Striker all move faster, and at the same speed as one another, while in their Supers.

Arcstrider, as a whole, is performing well in PvP but mostly due to its neutral game perks. We’ve made the following changes in an effort to get the Super to be a more competitive option:

Faster Attack Animations.

Faster Dodge Animations.

Increased range of all attacks.

Supers recharge faster for everyone!

We’ve buffed several weapon archetypes (including, but not limited to, Hand >Cannons, Pulse Rifles, Sniper Rifles, and Shotguns) and a few specific perks, as >well.

A key goal here is to make Shotguns, Snipers, and Fusion rifles more prevalent in the game.

We’ve also been working side-by-side with our friends on PvP to increase the pace of PvP combat and the frequency of power play. Here’s a sneak peek at their hard work:

Player respawn times for all Quickplay modes have been decreased.

Power Ammo respawn timers for all Quickplay modes have been reduced ~30%.

Power Ammo respawn timers in Survival have been reduced ~40%.

Power Ammo respawn timers in Countdown have been reduced ~25%.

Ammo counts have been adjusted in relation to these timers, and in relation to weapon type.

Enemy players now drop their power ammo on death.

The dropped brick is available to anyone until picked up or 30 seconds have passed.

TL;DR

I felt a sudden need to re-post this. Not only because it felt right relevant (and is AWESOME), but because I'm actually hyped about these proposed changes!

AHHHHHHHHHHHHH! :D

I hope this ships.

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I know Bungie has been saying, "We're listening, we'll be better at communicating . . ." for like three years now.

This past few weeks is the first time I've actually believed them when they say that. These are the kind of updates I like to see. Agree or disagree with the changes, at least they're responding and letting us know what the hell is going on, what's being planned, what their design goals are. It's nice.

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I felt a sudden need to re-post this. Not only because it felt right relevant (and is AWESOME), but because I'm actually hyped about these proposed changes!

AHHHHHHHHHHHHH! :D

I hope this ships.

One thing that I definitely feel when returning to Destiny from other games is how little "momentum" plays into the gameplay itself, when it's such a noticeable (and great) part of modern game design, especially when it comes to improving on the skill gap.

Destiny 1 sort of had this with Warlock gliding and Titan skating (not to say anything about those shotgun-sliding jerks, too), and even Blink had a risk-reward system, but movement in Destiny 2 feels really stiff, even though they got rid of Sprint cooldown. I'm not asking them to implement wall-running or bullet jumping, but I'd like to see a focus on smoother transitions between movement that take momentum into account.

Hopefully in making everything faster, the momentum issues don't become more noticeable.

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I felt a sudden need to re-post this. Not only because it felt right relevant (and is AWESOME), but because I'm actually hyped about these proposed changes!

AHHHHHHHHHHHHH! :D

I hope this ships.

One thing that I definitely feel when returning to Destiny from other games is how little "momentum" plays into the gameplay itself, when it's such a noticeable (and great) part of modern game design, especially when it comes to improving on the skill gap.

Destiny 1 sort of had this with Warlock gliding and Titan skating (not to say anything about those shotgun-sliding jerks, too), and even Blink had a risk-reward system, but movement in Destiny 2 feels really stiff, even though they got rid of Sprint cooldown. I'm not asking them to implement wall-running or bullet jumping, but I'd like to see a focus on smoother transitions between movement that take momentum into account.

Hopefully in making everything faster, the momentum issues don't become more noticeable.

I’ve always felt like movement speed and time to kill were out of whack with each other. The TTK isn’t as quick as some other shooters, but it’s still pretty darn short. And the movement speed is so painfully slow in relation that reacting/dodging is rarely possible. So the idea of quickening all forms of movement sounds great to me.

The idea of increasing super recharge rates sounds great for PvE but terrible for PvP. Supers were the absolute bane of D1 crucible, and they’re only tolerable in D2 because they’re a relatively minor part of the overall PvP game. Ultimately, I care a lot more about the PvE game than PvP, but it’s a shame that the two sides of the game play at such odds with each other. Ideally, supers would be tougher to use effectively or be more open to counters (like the Core abilities in Titanfall).

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. . . Supers were the absolute bane of D1 crucible, and they’re only tolerable in D2 because they’re a relatively minor part of the overall PvP game . . . more open to counters . . .

The durability of supers (even with a 12% damage reduction in my case) is still substantially lower overall than in D1, though. The bonus damage from energy weapons leaves you with a lot more in the way of active counters against most of the supers.

And with the proposed Power Ammo changes I don't see them being more frequent as a detriment, as Power Weapons often will do work on enemies with Active Supers. I suppose it is how much faster supers will charge that is the fulcrum.

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I felt a sudden need to re-post this. Not only because it felt right relevant (and is AWESOME), but because I'm actually hyped about these proposed changes!

AHHHHHHHHHHHHH! :D

I hope this ships.

One thing that I definitely feel when returning to Destiny from other games is how little "momentum" plays into the gameplay itself, when it's such a noticeable (and great) part of modern game design, especially when it comes to improving on the skill gap.

Destiny 1 sort of had this with Warlock gliding and Titan skating (not to say anything about those shotgun-sliding jerks, too), and even Blink had a risk-reward system, but movement in Destiny 2 feels really stiff, even though they got rid of Sprint cooldown. I'm not asking them to implement wall-running or bullet jumping, but I'd like to see a focus on smoother transitions between movement that take momentum into account.

Hopefully in making everything faster, the momentum issues don't become more noticeable.

I’ve always felt like movement speed and time to kill were out of whack with each other. The TTK isn’t as quick as some other shooters, but it’s still pretty darn short. And the movement speed is so painfully slow in relation that reacting/dodging is rarely possible. So the idea of quickening all forms of movement sounds great to me.

The idea of increasing super recharge rates sounds great for PvE but terrible for PvP. Supers were the absolute bane of D1 crucible, and they’re only tolerable in D2 because they’re a relatively minor part of the overall PvP game. Ultimately, I care a lot more about the PvE game than PvP, but it’s a shame that the two sides of the game play at such odds with each other. Ideally, supers would be tougher to use effectively or be more open to counters (like the Core abilities in Titanfall).

I think the faster speed will help a bit (and is nicely held in check by the three hit melee kill in D2) but completely disagree on Supers.

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I felt a sudden need to re-post this. Not only because it felt right relevant (and is AWESOME), but because I'm actually hyped about these proposed changes!

AHHHHHHHHHHHHH! :D

I hope this ships.

One thing that I definitely feel when returning to Destiny from other games is how little "momentum" plays into the gameplay itself, when it's such a noticeable (and great) part of modern game design, especially when it comes to improving on the skill gap.

Destiny 1 sort of had this with Warlock gliding and Titan skating (not to say anything about those shotgun-sliding jerks, too), and even Blink had a risk-reward system, but movement in Destiny 2 feels really stiff, even though they got rid of Sprint cooldown. I'm not asking them to implement wall-running or bullet jumping, but I'd like to see a focus on smoother transitions between movement that take momentum into account.

Hopefully in making everything faster, the momentum issues don't become more noticeable.

I’ve always felt like movement speed and time to kill were out of whack with each other. The TTK isn’t as quick as some other shooters, but it’s still pretty darn short. And the movement speed is so painfully slow in relation that reacting/dodging is rarely possible. So the idea of quickening all forms of movement sounds great to me.

The idea of increasing super recharge rates sounds great for PvE but terrible for PvP. Supers were the absolute bane of D1 crucible, and they’re only tolerable in D2 because they’re a relatively minor part of the overall PvP game. Ultimately, I care a lot more about the PvE game than PvP, but it’s a shame that the two sides of the game play at such odds with each other. Ideally, supers would be tougher to use effectively or be more open to counters (like the Core abilities in Titanfall).

I think the faster speed will help a bit (and is nicely held in check by the three hit melee kill in D2) but completely disagree on Supers.

I do get the appeal of supers in PvP. I just think it’s tough to create supers in a game like Destiny that fulfil the PvE Power fantasy without totally disrupting the flow of PvP. Supers in the crucible are basically “win” bottons. It’s almost impossible to screw them up. When a player pops their super, the onus isn’t on them to execute skillfully, it’s on the other team to be coordinated AF to take down the incoming super.

I mentioned Titanfall 2 because I think they hit the nail on the head with their approach to “Supers”. The Titan Core moves are powerful, but they have more specific and strategic uses, can be more easily avoided or countered, and they have inherent risks involved because of how they lock the Titan into specific animations or movements that are predictable. Because the supers take more skill to use effectively, it feels WAY more satisfying when you pull off something cool. Meanwhile in Destiny, if I pop a super and kill fewer than 3 opponents with it, it’s bevause I seriously messed up. There’s nothing rewarding about a successful super because they’re basically automatic kills.

What would be great would be if the class abilities worked in such a way that they were particularly effective at countering supers.

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I do get the appeal of supers in PvP. I just think it’s tough to create supers in a game like Destiny that fulfil the PvE Power fantasy without totally disrupting the flow of PvP. Supers in the crucible are basically “win” bottons. It’s almost impossible to screw them up. When a player pops their super, the onus isn’t on them to execute skillfully, it’s on the other team to be coordinated AF to take down the incoming super.

I mentioned Titanfall 2 because I think they hit the nail on the head with their approach to “Supers”. The Titan Core moves are powerful, but they have more specific and strategic uses, can be more easily avoided or countered, and they have inherent risks involved because of how they lock the Titan into specific animations or movements that are predictable. Because the supers take more skill to use effectively, it feels WAY more satisfying when you pull off something cool. Meanwhile in Destiny, if I pop a super and kill fewer than 3 opponents with it, it’s bevause I seriously messed up. There’s nothing rewarding about a successful super because they’re basically automatic kills.

What would be great would be if the class abilities worked in such a way that they were particularly effective at countering supers.

You're playing a different game than I am. I rarely, these days, get 3 kills with a super. (It was much more common in D1.) I rarely see my opponents get 3 kills with a super.

This entire post seems like gross hyperbole to me. (I'm not saying it is - i'm saying you're playing a different game than I am, and with different opponents and teammates.)

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I do get the appeal of supers in PvP. I just think it’s tough to create supers in a game like Destiny that fulfil the PvE Power fantasy without totally disrupting the flow of PvP. Supers in the crucible are basically “win” bottons. It’s almost impossible to screw them up. When a player pops their super, the onus isn’t on them to execute skillfully, it’s on the other team to be coordinated AF to take down the incoming super.

I mentioned Titanfall 2 because I think they hit the nail on the head with their approach to “Supers”. The Titan Core moves are powerful, but they have more specific and strategic uses, can be more easily avoided or countered, and they have inherent risks involved because of how they lock the Titan into specific animations or movements that are predictable. Because the supers take more skill to use effectively, it feels WAY more satisfying when you pull off something cool. Meanwhile in Destiny, if I pop a super and kill fewer than 3 opponents with it, it’s bevause I seriously messed up. There’s nothing rewarding about a successful super because they’re basically automatic kills.

What would be great would be if the class abilities worked in such a way that they were particularly effective at countering supers.

You're playing a different game than I am. I rarely, these days, get 3 kills with a super. (It was much more common in D1.) I rarely see my opponents get 3 kills with a super.

This entire post seems like gross hyperbole to me. (I'm not saying it is - i'm saying you're playing a different game than I am, and with different opponents and teammates.)

Agreed. The only supers I see get 3 kills (more or less consistently) are Striker and Golden Gun. And I’m pretty sure Stiker is just because they basically don’t have an activation animation in which they are vulnerable. But yeah, a good team should hear/see a Super, spread out and team shoot.

On the opposite side, when your teammate activates their Super, you should become a distraction, preventing the enemy from team shooting your Supered teammate

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Agreed. The only supers I see get 3 kills (more or less consistently) are Striker and Golden Gun. And I’m pretty sure Stiker is just because they basically don’t have an activation animation in which they are vulnerable. But yeah, a good team should hear/see a Super, spread out and team shoot.

Vulnerability exists, but the window is small. I got lucky playing bodyguard for Claude last night.

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Agreed. The only supers I see get 3 kills (more or less consistently) are Striker and Golden Gun. And I’m pretty sure Stiker is just because they basically don’t have an activation animation in which they are vulnerable. But yeah, a good team should hear/see a Super, spread out and team shoot.

Vulnerability exists, but the window is small. I got lucky playing bodyguard for Claude last night.

Until you said you'd saved me, I completely thought I'd done that. :)

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Agreed. The only supers I see get 3 kills (more or less consistently) are Striker and Golden Gun. And I’m pretty sure Stiker is just because they basically don’t have an activation animation in which they are vulnerable. But yeah, a good team should hear/see a Super, spread out and team shoot.

Vulnerability exists, but the window is small. I got lucky playing bodyguard for Claude last night.

Until you said you'd saved me, I completely thought I'd done that. :)

Oh that's funny. From your clip it totally looks like you burned him with your throwing knife.

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Agreed. The only supers I see get 3 kills (more or less consistently) are Striker and Golden Gun. And I’m pretty sure Stiker is just because they basically don’t have an activation animation in which they are vulnerable. But yeah, a good team should hear/see a Super, spread out and team shoot.

Vulnerability exists, but the window is small. I got lucky playing bodyguard for Claude last night.

Until you said you'd saved me, I completely thought I'd done that. :)

Oh that's funny. From your clip it totally looks like you burned him with your throwing knife.

How come both of your videos seem to cutoff just as it seems an enemy arcstrider is entering the scene from Claude's left? :P

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How come both of your videos seem to cutoff just as it seems an enemy arcstrider is entering the scene from Claude's left? :P

He killed both of us. :)

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Hero to zero. You've caught me uploading the highlight reel to facebook. The internet is a lie. No one is happy. :-(

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I do get the appeal of supers in PvP. I just think it’s tough to create supers in a game like Destiny that fulfil the PvE Power fantasy without totally disrupting the flow of PvP. Supers in the crucible are basically “win” bottons. It’s almost impossible to screw them up. When a player pops their super, the onus isn’t on them to execute skillfully, it’s on the other team to be coordinated AF to take down the incoming super.

I mentioned Titanfall 2 because I think they hit the nail on the head with their approach to “Supers”. The Titan Core moves are powerful, but they have more specific and strategic uses, can be more easily avoided or countered, and they have inherent risks involved because of how they lock the Titan into specific animations or movements that are predictable. Because the supers take more skill to use effectively, it feels WAY more satisfying when you pull off something cool. Meanwhile in Destiny, if I pop a super and kill fewer than 3 opponents with it, it’s bevause I seriously messed up. There’s nothing rewarding about a successful super because they’re basically automatic kills.

What would be great would be if the class abilities worked in such a way that they were particularly effective at countering supers.

You're playing a different game than I am. I rarely, these days, get 3 kills with a super. (It was much more common in D1.) I rarely see my opponents get 3 kills with a super.

This entire post seems like gross hyperbole to me. (I'm not saying it is - i'm saying you're playing a different game than I am, and with different opponents and teammates.)

The real point I'm trying to make is separate from the actual number of kills that any one of us typically gets with their average super activation...

This is 100% just an issue of personal taste (and I already know and have long accepted that Destiny PvP doesn't lean in my preferred direction, and that's totally fine). I have a fundamental problem with a competitive game that creates situations where a player can be outplayed, outmatched, outmaneuvered, and walk away victorious from an encounter because they hit a single button while vaguely facing the right direction. I don't think those kinds of mechanics make a competitive game enjoyable. I think they cheapen it in the pursuit of "hero moments". But I never feel heroic when I get a bunch of kills with a super because I usually didn't have to do anything particularly skillful.

All of this is just to say that I think supers in D2 PvP are actually in a pretty good place right now, because they're barely present. The majority of the match plays out with teamwork, coordination, and gunplay being the focus. Then the last 90-120 seconds of the match turn into a bit of a clusterf$*& while everyone on both teams starts popping all their supers, which is crazy and silly and can feel like a fun escalation because everyone knows its coming and it doesn't last too long. What I'm concerned about is a return to the D1 days where I'd often play matches where the majority of my deaths were to enemy supers that I had little or no hope of avoiding or stopping.

And again, on the flip side, I think more supers is absolutely a good thing for the PvE side of the game, and I ultimately care more about that side of Destiny.

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The real point I'm trying to make is separate from the actual number of kills that any one of us typically gets with their average super activation...

The point *I* was trying to make was that Supers are NOT 'Win Buttons' - not even close. In D1, the activation time of a super was either shorter, or there was a period of invulnerability associated with it, so that you could be in a firefight with someone, be winning, and they could turn it around by activating their super and beating you. That simply doesn't happen any more. If you're in the middle of a fight, and you're losing, activating your super is a good way to GUARANTEE your death. It's just not fast enough any more. On top of that, almost every super has counters that players can learn and implement - absolutely if a Titan smashes you from around a corner, you're gonna die, but in most cases you can run, you can sacrifice yourself for the good of your team, you can choose the right weapon to maximize your chances. (And you even know, at all times, EXACTLY HOW MANY SUPERS the enemy team has ready to use! It's no longer a surprise when it's coming to the end of a close game and suddenly you're facing 3 or 4 super'd enemies; you can see it coming, and you can set up for it.)

I had at least a dozen instances last night of fighting someone who had JUST popped their super, and through smart play, had managed to kill them. In almost every case, I died too - but I consider a trade with a super-wielding foe to be a win if nobody else dies.

Heck - here's a clip from just last night.

http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/Louis%20Wu/video/43434047

My point is, more often than not, winning with a super isn't 'hitting a single button while facing in vaguely the right direction', and talking about it that way degrades both people who are skillful with them and people who die to them.

I'm not saying you aren't invulnerable when you activate YOUR super, and I'm not saying you're bad for dying to people who activate one against you. I'm saying, again, that we're playing different games, and I actually find the tone of your post to be off-putting; when you say things like "It’s almost impossible to screw them up", you make people feel uncomfortable (well, let's keep this personal - you make ME feel uncomfortable) about even TALKING about dying to a super. (Or sharing stories about shutting them down, even - I hesitated to post that link because I feel like the response is gonna be "well, those two guys were clearly incompetent.") That makes me sad, because some of those stories feel epic - but you've just dismissed the entire category.

I guess what I'm really trying to say is that sometimes, almost certainly without meaning to, your hyperbole can dampen my enthusiasm to even try and share. I don't want that to happen, so I'm telling you in the hopes that you can keep the rest of us in mind when you're telling us how easy something should be.

(I totally get that you were originally trying to say "I don't really like supers, because I feel like they disrupt the flow of the game", and your hyperbole - I should stop calling it that, your description of your experiences with them - was mostly just in defense of that point. But MY point was that I see a common thread in some of your posts, where the evidence you use to make your points tends to make me feel like even sharing my experience will make me look like a schlub. So I don't share. I don't mind at all that you play on a level that's light-years above me; several people on this forum do that. (I even play with some of them.) The difference is, when they're talking about their experiences, I don't feel demeaned. You can describe your experience, even if it's way more intricate or complicated or skilled than mine, without making ME feel like a loser. That's all.)

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I was planning on posting a rant in this thread, but now I feel like I'd just be piling on and I also don't want to type out some super long response or spend more time thinking about this stuff, so here's the short version:

To me, Destiny PvP should be about the interplay of Supers, abilities, and powerful weapons. I'm not even sure if Destiny 2 qualifies as Destiny PvP in this respect. So, my most sincerest hope is that Bungie fixes Destiny 2 PvP into something CruelLegacy will hate - I don't know how to argue this point without sounding like a jerk. Until Bungie explains what Destiny PvP means to them (and their changes over the past 2-3 years have made it extremely unclear what they are even trying to do), having this discussion is difficult/impossible. However, I feel strongly that Destiny 1 style of play should have primacy, simply because it came first and is what many people found so compelling about the game.

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I was planning on posting a rant in this thread, but now I feel like I'd just be piling on and I also don't want to type out some super long response or spend more time thinking about this stuff, so here's the short version:

To me, Destiny PvP should be about the interplay of Supers, abilities, and powerful weapons. I'm not even sure if Destiny 2 qualifies as Destiny PvP in this respect. So, my most sincerest hope is that Bungie fixes Destiny 2 PvP into something CruelLegacy will hate - I don't know how to argue this point without sounding like a jerk. Until Bungie explains what Destiny PvP means to them (and their changes over the past 2-3 years have made it extremely unclear what they are even trying to do), having this discussion is difficult/impossible. However, I feel strongly that Destiny 1 style of play should have primacy, simply because it came first and is what many people found so compelling about the game.

I agree with you that Bungie needs to be clear as to what they want PvP to be. Especially since they started with D1 PvP and changed it into what it is now. I will also add that I am willing to play PvP way more now than I did in D1. But I think the reason for that is because of how it plays, not because it's broken or anything. And I think on the opposite side is probably why some of you don't like PvP. I guess you can't appease everyone? Well, you can't, but at least Bungie can not piss everyone off by confusing them as to what they want PvP to be :-D

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I guess what I'm really trying to say is that sometimes, almost certainly without meaning to, your hyperbole can dampen my enthusiasm to even try and share. I don't want that to happen, so I'm telling you in the hopes that you can keep the rest of us in mind when you're telling us how easy something should be.

I play with Cruel sometimes, so I know he doesn't mean to come off as dismissive and indirectly condescending as he has been in this thread. It comes down to poorly-phrased hyperbole rather than deliberately talking down at people that he considers less skilled than he is.

(I totally get that you were originally trying to say "I don't really like supers, because I feel like they disrupt the flow of the game", and your hyperbole - I should stop calling it that, your description of your experiences with them - was mostly just in defense of that point. But MY point was that I see a common thread in some of your posts, where the evidence you use to make your points tends to make me feel like even sharing my experience will make me look like a schlub. So I don't share. I don't mind at all that you play on a level that's light-years above me; several people on this forum do that. (I even play with some of them.) The difference is, when they're talking about their experiences, I don't feel demeaned. You can describe your experience, even if it's way more intricate or complicated or skilled than mine, without making ME feel like a loser. That's all.)

Right. I know I'm not as good at the game as most folks here, but his claims really don't make sense to me. Other than the Fist of Panic in D1, Supers there weren't so bad, and they're generally easier to drop in D2, especially with more frequent Heavy drops (and the prevalence of rocket launchers).
And don't even get me started on trying to get kills with Supers. I try to pop my Supers strategically, but unless I'm using Stormcaller, I'm probably not going to get more than one kill with a Super.

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So I've obviously managed to come off as dismissive or condescending, and I'm sorry about that. It was absolutely not my intention.

I don't want to drag this particular thread out more than is necessary, but I do feel like I should clarify a few of my points, just because I've so obviously failed to state them in a way that matches my intention.

First of all, regarding any statements I've made that are coming off as hyperbolic.

When I say things like, "supers are basically a win button" or "you just need to be facing vaguely in the right direction", I am trying to accurately describe my general experience of using supers (or going up against them) in Destiny. Those statements certainly don't apply to every super ability equally, nor do they apply to every single situational use of a super equally. But in my mind, when I think about the thousands of hours I've spent playing this game, the most common interactions with supers that rise to the top of my memory fit the descriptions as I wrote them. I ambush a guy, he turns around and Fist-of-Panics me. I catch a warlock floating around a corner, he Nova Bombs me in the face from point plank range and we both die. I respawn just in time to see a hammer titan or a stormcaller running straight at me, and they crush me before I have time to move more than a couple steps. And all these examples, I've been on the delivering side just as often.

These scenarios are obviously not the only encounters with supers in the game. But my impression, as anecdotal and unreliable as it may be, is that those are the most common interactions with supers that I have in the game. And I genuinely believe it is fair to say that those sorts of actions are not particularly demanding or skillful. They literally are just pointing in the right general direction and pressing a button. I know some supers are a little more simplistic to use than others, but I play as a Titan. So that's the point of reference that I have to work with.
At the same time, I hear you say that I'm sounding demeaning or insulting towards players who don't always manage to use supers effectively and I feel terrible about that (on that note, I should also stress that I never said that I always use them effectively either... I said "if I get fewer than 3 kills, I feel like I've screwed up". And that happens all the time).

What I was trying to explain from the start is that IMO, Supers in Destiny take way more skill to counter than they do to use, and that I personally find the balance too far in that direction for my preferences. I never meant to make anyone feel like I was degrading their abilities or anything like that. So I apologize for failing to make that clear. Hopefully this makes a bit more sense.

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I felt a sudden need to re-post this. Not only because it felt right relevant (and is AWESOME), but because I'm actually hyped about these proposed changes!

AHHHHHHHHHHHHH! :D

I hope this ships.

One thing that I definitely feel when returning to Destiny from other games is how little "momentum" plays into the gameplay itself, when it's such a noticeable (and great) part of modern game design, especially when it comes to improving on the skill gap.

Destiny 1 sort of had this with Warlock gliding and Titan skating (not to say anything about those shotgun-sliding jerks, too), and even Blink had a risk-reward system, but movement in Destiny 2 feels really stiff, even though they got rid of Sprint cooldown. I'm not asking them to implement wall-running or bullet jumping, but I'd like to see a focus on smoother transitions between movement that take momentum into account.

Hopefully in making everything faster, the momentum issues don't become more noticeable.

I’ve always felt like movement speed and time to kill were out of whack with each other. The TTK isn’t as quick as some other shooters, but it’s still pretty darn short. And the movement speed is so painfully slow in relation that reacting/dodging is rarely possible. So the idea of quickening all forms of movement sounds great to me.

The idea of increasing super recharge rates sounds great for PvE but terrible for PvP. Supers were the absolute bane of D1 crucible, and they’re only tolerable in D2 because they’re a relatively minor part of the overall PvP game. Ultimately, I care a lot more about the PvE game than PvP, but it’s a shame that the two sides of the game play at such odds with each other. Ideally, supers would be tougher to use effectively or be more open to counters (like the Core abilities in Titanfall).

I think the faster speed will help a bit (and is nicely held in check by the three hit melee kill in D2) but completely disagree on Supers.

I do get the appeal of supers in PvP. I just think it’s tough to create supers in a game like Destiny that fulfil the PvE Power fantasy without totally disrupting the flow of PvP. Supers in the crucible are basically “win” bottons. It’s almost impossible to screw them up. When a player pops their super, the onus isn’t on them to execute skillfully, it’s on the other team to be coordinated AF to take down the incoming super.

I mentioned Titanfall 2 because I think they hit the nail on the head with their approach to “Supers”. The Titan Core moves are powerful, but they have more specific and strategic uses, can be more easily avoided or countered, and they have inherent risks involved because of how they lock the Titan into specific animations or movements that are predictable. Because the supers take more skill to use effectively, it feels WAY more satisfying when you pull off something cool. Meanwhile in Destiny, if I pop a super and kill fewer than 3 opponents with it, it’s bevause I seriously messed up. There’s nothing rewarding about a successful super because they’re basically automatic kills.

What would be great would be if the class abilities worked in such a way that they were particularly effective at countering supers.

I'm with the others who replied to you. What you are saying quite simply does not match up with reality in regard to Destiny 2 Supers. In at least two ways:

1. Supers in D2 lock players into a predictable state just as much as the Titan Core abilities do in Titanfall. If I hear a Golden Gun I know how to avoid or kill it. If I hear Fists of Havoc or Arc Staff, I know to prepare for someone running straight at me and to get off the ground if I can't counter them in time. If I hear Sentinel Shield or Daybreak I know I'll need to be a bit more mobile to avoid ranged, homing projectiles.

2. If you are consistently getting 3+ Super kills per activation then you are a Destiny god and all of us are idiots. I highly doubt that is the case. Talking about Supers being automatic kills or being impossible to screw up is so massively far outside my realm of experience that, yeah, I think you are talking up the game you like and are right on the boarder of misrepresenting the way Destiny 2 plays.

We get it, you like Titanfall. But, come on, at least be realistic and fair with regards to Destiny.

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I felt a sudden need to re-post this. Not only because it felt right relevant (and is AWESOME), but because I'm actually hyped about these proposed changes!

AHHHHHHHHHHHHH! :D

I hope this ships.

One thing that I definitely feel when returning to Destiny from other games is how little "momentum" plays into the gameplay itself, when it's such a noticeable (and great) part of modern game design, especially when it comes to improving on the skill gap.

Destiny 1 sort of had this with Warlock gliding and Titan skating (not to say anything about those shotgun-sliding jerks, too), and even Blink had a risk-reward system, but movement in Destiny 2 feels really stiff, even though they got rid of Sprint cooldown. I'm not asking them to implement wall-running or bullet jumping, but I'd like to see a focus on smoother transitions between movement that take momentum into account.

Hopefully in making everything faster, the momentum issues don't become more noticeable.

I’ve always felt like movement speed and time to kill were out of whack with each other. The TTK isn’t as quick as some other shooters, but it’s still pretty darn short. And the movement speed is so painfully slow in relation that reacting/dodging is rarely possible. So the idea of quickening all forms of movement sounds great to me.

The idea of increasing super recharge rates sounds great for PvE but terrible for PvP. Supers were the absolute bane of D1 crucible, and they’re only tolerable in D2 because they’re a relatively minor part of the overall PvP game. Ultimately, I care a lot more about the PvE game than PvP, but it’s a shame that the two sides of the game play at such odds with each other. Ideally, supers would be tougher to use effectively or be more open to counters (like the Core abilities in Titanfall).

I think the faster speed will help a bit (and is nicely held in check by the three hit melee kill in D2) but completely disagree on Supers.

I do get the appeal of supers in PvP. I just think it’s tough to create supers in a game like Destiny that fulfil the PvE Power fantasy without totally disrupting the flow of PvP. Supers in the crucible are basically “win” bottons. It’s almost impossible to screw them up. When a player pops their super, the onus isn’t on them to execute skillfully, it’s on the other team to be coordinated AF to take down the incoming super.

I mentioned Titanfall 2 because I think they hit the nail on the head with their approach to “Supers”. The Titan Core moves are powerful, but they have more specific and strategic uses, can be more easily avoided or countered, and they have inherent risks involved because of how they lock the Titan into specific animations or movements that are predictable. Because the supers take more skill to use effectively, it feels WAY more satisfying when you pull off something cool. Meanwhile in Destiny, if I pop a super and kill fewer than 3 opponents with it, it’s bevause I seriously messed up. There’s nothing rewarding about a successful super because they’re basically automatic kills.

What would be great would be if the class abilities worked in such a way that they were particularly effective at countering supers.

I'm with the others who replied to you. What you are saying quite simply does not match up with reality in regard to Destiny 2 Supers. In at least two ways:

1. Supers in D2 lock players into a predictable state just as much as the Titan Core abilities do in Titanfall. If I hear a Golden Gun I know how to avoid or kill it. If I hear Fists of Havoc or Arc Staff, I know to prepare for someone running straight at me and to get off the ground if I can't counter them in time. If I hear Sentinel Shield or Daybreak I know I'll need to be a bit more mobile to avoid ranged, homing projectiles.

2. If you are consistently getting 3+ Super kills per activation then you are a Destiny god and all of us are idiots. I highly doubt that is the case. Talking about Supers being automatic kills or being impossible to screw up is so massively far outside my realm of experience that, yeah, I think you are talking up the game you like and are right on the boarder of misrepresenting the way Destiny 2 plays.

We get it, you like Titanfall. But, come on, at least be realistic and fair with regards to Destiny.

I am being realistic. You just aren't understanding my point (which could totally be my fault).

I never said I get 3+ supers with every activation. I said that if I get less than 3 kills with a super, it is usually because I screwed up, and not because the enemy team did anything particularly amazing to stop me. If you pop your super at the wrong moment, or attack recklessly, then yeah you won't get a ton of kills. All of that is the fault of the person activating their super at the wrong time and/or using it poorly. Which I consider "screwing up", as I first said.

Also, you are the one misrepresenting reality if you think Destiny supers "lock you in" to animations in the same way that Titanfall supers do. Titan Core abilities trap the player using them into actions that leave them quite vulnerable. It makes them quite difficult to use effectively. All you have to do is play the game for a few rounds and see for yourself; how often do players in Titanfall get more than 1 or 2 kills with a Core ability? It is VERY rare. I've pulled it off a few times in over 500 hours of play, and it feels like a serious accomplishment when you do it. That simply is not true with Destiny.

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I never said I get 3+ supers with every activation. I said that if I get less than 3 kills with a super, it is usually because I screwed up, and not because the enemy team did anything particularly amazing to stop me.

I understand what you are saying, but I disagree. This statement implies that the other team doesn't have the tools to defeat you correctly, thus to mess up, it has to be laid at the feet of the person using the super, is that what you are saying in a nutshell? Other people have mentioned that in D2 there is way more tools to defeat supers, elemental and more frequent heavy ammo being the most used.

Correct me if I misunderstood.

If you pop your super at the wrong moment, or attack recklessly, then yeah you won't get a ton of kills. All of that is the fault of the person activating their super at the wrong time and/or using it poorly. Which I consider "screwing up", as I first said.

This I would consider to be the fault of the super user, almost everything after that is how well the other team plays.

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I never said I get 3+ supers with every activation. I said that if I get less than 3 kills with a super, it is usually because I screwed up, and not because the enemy team did anything particularly amazing to stop me.

I understand what you are saying, but I disagree. This statement implies that the other team doesn't have the tools to defeat you correctly, thus to mess up, it has to be laid at the feet of the person using the super, is that what you are saying in a nutshell? Other people have mentioned that in D2 there is way more tools to defeat supers, elemental and more frequent heavy ammo being the most used.

Correct me if I misunderstood.

Nope, you've got it.

If you pop your super at the wrong moment, or attack recklessly, then yeah you won't get a ton of kills. All of that is the fault of the person activating their super at the wrong time and/or using it poorly. Which I consider "screwing up", as I first said.

This I would consider to be the fault of the super user, almost everything after that is how well the other team plays.

I think there is a risk/reward balance with this sort of thing, and Destiny leans too far to one direction for my personal taste. Meaning, I don't think there is enough risk involved with activating a super, and I think the rewards are too easily attained. But that said, I think D2 is striking a pretty good overall balance around supers at the moment, in the crucible. Because of how rare they are, and because they're not quite as unstoppable as they were in D1, I often feel like I have a chance at stopping them if I play really smart. And sometimes I manage to do it, and that leads to the most fun moments I've had in D2 crucible. I just hope that the faster super recharge will not turn the game into the all-out super spam that we had in D1, that's all :)

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This I would consider to be the fault of the super user, almost everything after that is how well the other team plays.

I think there is a risk/reward balance with this sort of thing, and Destiny leans too far to one direction for my personal taste. Meaning, I don't think there is enough risk involved with activating a super, and I think the rewards are too easily attained. But that said, I think D2 is striking a pretty good overall balance around supers at the moment, in the crucible. Because of how rare they are, and because they're not quite as unstoppable as they were in D1, I often feel like I have a chance at stopping them if I play really smart. And sometimes I manage to do it, and that leads to the most fun moments I've had in D2 crucible. I just hope that the faster super recharge will not turn the game into the all-out super spam that we had in D1, that's all :)

I agree with where supers are at in terms of frequency. I just wish you could keep the timing but somehow make it so that supers could be popped more offten. Once, maybe twice is very little for a single game. But the only way I can see them doing that without making it a super-fest is to extend the length of the game.

I like supers because, as you said they are kinda a guaranteed way to kill people. But technically so is heavy ammo. It's just more so in the way of Supers. So if you managed to, most likely as a team, shut down a super then that is a big win for your team. It kinda feels the same way that Heavy was in D1. If the other team got both heavy drops or you manages to out kill them with your heavy, that could heavily sway the game. Same with supers, if you team shoot and kill a super before they can use it, or you kill them with your super then it heavily sways the game. The difference is that now you have more options to shut down supers in D2. This style of game I like and I know it's not for everyone.

Going back to the timing of supers. The one thing I regret is that if one team shuts down the other team's supers to gain an advantage, there is not enough time to to it back to the other team. The game is already over before a second chance happens. That is my only regret.

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This I would consider to be the fault of the super user, almost everything after that is how well the other team plays.

I think there is a risk/reward balance with this sort of thing, and Destiny leans too far to one direction for my personal taste. Meaning, I don't think there is enough risk involved with activating a super, and I think the rewards are too easily attained. But that said, I think D2 is striking a pretty good overall balance around supers at the moment, in the crucible. Because of how rare they are, and because they're not quite as unstoppable as they were in D1, I often feel like I have a chance at stopping them if I play really smart. And sometimes I manage to do it, and that leads to the most fun moments I've had in D2 crucible. I just hope that the faster super recharge will not turn the game into the all-out super spam that we had in D1, that's all :)

I agree with where supers are at in terms of frequency. I just wish you could keep the timing but somehow make it so that supers could be popped more offten. Once, maybe twice is very little for a single game. But the only way I can see them doing that without making it a super-fest is to extend the length of the game.

I like supers because, as you said they are kinda a guaranteed way to kill people. But technically so is heavy ammo. It's just more so in the way of Supers. So if you managed to, most likely as a team, shut down a super then that is a big win for your team. It kinda feels the same way that Heavy was in D1. If the other team got both heavy drops or you manages to out kill them with your heavy, that could heavily sway the game. Same with supers, if you team shoot and kill a super before they can use it, or you kill them with your super then it heavily sways the game. The difference is that now you have more options to shut down supers in D2. This style of game I like and I know it's not for everyone.

Going back to the timing of supers. The one thing I regret is that if one team shuts down the other team's supers to gain an advantage, there is not enough time to to it back to the other team. The game is already over before a second chance happens. That is my only regret.

I still think Year 1 Trials of Osiris was the place where Destiny supers really clicked in a great way. The nature of the elimination gametype motivated players to be less reckless with their supers, and hold them for moments when they could really make a key difference. It turned super usage into a sort of poker game. The matches were long enough that players would often get 2 or even 3 supers per game, but there was never that snowballing, runaway super-train scenario that plagued the 6v6 playlists. And what was so cool about it is that the supers themselves didn't change at all... the way people used them changed because the stakes were different. The risks involved were greater. In a control game, you can use a nova bomb to kill 1 player, get yourself killed due to being out of position, and its no big deal. But in trials, wasting a super like that could cost your team the match.

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I still think Year 1 Trials of Osiris was the place where Destiny supers really clicked in a great way. The nature of the elimination gametype motivated players to be less reckless with their supers, and hold them for moments when they could really make a key difference. It turned super usage into a sort of poker game. The matches were long enough that players would often get 2 or even 3 supers per game, but there was never that snowballing, runaway super-train scenario that plagued the 6v6 playlists. And what was so cool about it is that the supers themselves didn't change at all... the way people used them changed because the stakes were different. The risks involved were greater. In a control game, you can use a nova bomb to kill 1 player, get yourself killed due to being out of position, and its no big deal. But in trials, wasting a super like that could cost your team the match.

Oh man... I can't even begin to explain how much I miss D1 Trials of Osiris. Everything about it felt strategic, tense, exhilarating, full of tactical teamwork. I have a hard time explaining why, but D2 Trials of the Nine just feels different and 100% less fun.

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I still think Year 1 Trials of Osiris was the place where Destiny supers really clicked in a great way. The nature of the elimination gametype motivated players to be less reckless with their supers, and hold them for moments when they could really make a key difference. It turned super usage into a sort of poker game. The matches were long enough that players would often get 2 or even 3 supers per game, but there was never that snowballing, runaway super-train scenario that plagued the 6v6 playlists. And what was so cool about it is that the supers themselves didn't change at all... the way people used them changed because the stakes were different. The risks involved were greater. In a control game, you can use a nova bomb to kill 1 player, get yourself killed due to being out of position, and its no big deal. But in trials, wasting a super like that could cost your team the match.

Oh man... I can't even begin to explain how much I miss D1 Trials of Osiris. Everything about it felt strategic, tense, exhilarating, full of tactical teamwork. I have a hard time explaining why, but D2 Trials of the Nine just feels different and 100% less fun.

Right there with ya.

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I still think Year 1 Trials of Osiris was the place where Destiny supers really clicked in a great way. The nature of the elimination gametype motivated players to be less reckless with their supers, and hold them for moments when they could really make a key difference. It turned super usage into a sort of poker game. The matches were long enough that players would often get 2 or even 3 supers per game, but there was never that snowballing, runaway super-train scenario that plagued the 6v6 playlists. And what was so cool about it is that the supers themselves didn't change at all... the way people used them changed because the stakes were different. The risks involved were greater. In a control game, you can use a nova bomb to kill 1 player, get yourself killed due to being out of position, and its no big deal. But in trials, wasting a super like that could cost your team the match.

Oh man... I can't even begin to explain how much I miss D1 Trials of Osiris. Everything about it felt strategic, tense, exhilarating, full of tactical teamwork. I have a hard time explaining why, but D2 Trials of the Nine just feels different and 100% less fun.

Probably because you COULD pull off great plays and turn a match around. So the momentum of lots of games was constantly shifting.

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I still think Year 1 Trials of Osiris was the place where Destiny supers really clicked in a great way. The nature of the elimination gametype motivated players to be less reckless with their supers, and hold them for moments when they could really make a key difference. It turned super usage into a sort of poker game. The matches were long enough that players would often get 2 or even 3 supers per game, but there was never that snowballing, runaway super-train scenario that plagued the 6v6 playlists. And what was so cool about it is that the supers themselves didn't change at all... the way people used them changed because the stakes were different. The risks involved were greater. In a control game, you can use a nova bomb to kill 1 player, get yourself killed due to being out of position, and its no big deal. But in trials, wasting a super like that could cost your team the match.

Oh man... I can't even begin to explain how much I miss D1 Trials of Osiris. Everything about it felt strategic, tense, exhilarating, full of tactical teamwork. I have a hard time explaining why, but D2 Trials of the Nine just feels different and 100% less fun.

Probably because you COULD pull off great plays and turn a match around. So the momentum of lots of games was constantly shifting.

I just think that a single player can't do that anymore. It's either one team played well and wins or they don't. It's not one team did poorly but the one guy did some amazing things which meant he won the 1v3 or something. It's harder to make individual amazing plays basically. You make amazing comebacks as a team or not at all.

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I still think Year 1 Trials of Osiris was the place where Destiny supers really clicked in a great way. The nature of the elimination gametype motivated players to be less reckless with their supers, and hold them for moments when they could really make a key difference. It turned super usage into a sort of poker game. The matches were long enough that players would often get 2 or even 3 supers per game, but there was never that snowballing, runaway super-train scenario that plagued the 6v6 playlists. And what was so cool about it is that the supers themselves didn't change at all... the way people used them changed because the stakes were different. The risks involved were greater. In a control game, you can use a nova bomb to kill 1 player, get yourself killed due to being out of position, and its no big deal. But in trials, wasting a super like that could cost your team the match.

Oh man... I can't even begin to explain how much I miss D1 Trials of Osiris. Everything about it felt strategic, tense, exhilarating, full of tactical teamwork. I have a hard time explaining why, but D2 Trials of the Nine just feels different and 100% less fun.

Probably because you COULD pull off great plays and turn a match around. So the momentum of lots of games was constantly shifting.

I just think that a single player can't do that anymore. It's either one team played well and wins or they don't. It's not one team did poorly but the one guy did some amazing things which meant he won the 1v3 or something. It's harder to make individual amazing plays basically. You make amazing comebacks as a team or not at all.

Faster TTK allows for more deviation and variations. The slower the TTK, the more the skill gap settles into place.

Like, if in a fast TTK game you catch someone off guard, you can probably kill them even if they are better than you. But in a slow TTK game, where say, it takes 100 shots to kill (extreme example), you might get two shots off in the ambush, but if they are better than you by shot 20 they’ll have caught up.

Slower TTK levels everything out more, punishes mistakes less, and makes a turnaround less likely.

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I still think Year 1 Trials of Osiris was the place where Destiny supers really clicked in a great way. The nature of the elimination gametype motivated players to be less reckless with their supers, and hold them for moments when they could really make a key difference. It turned super usage into a sort of poker game. The matches were long enough that players would often get 2 or even 3 supers per game, but there was never that snowballing, runaway super-train scenario that plagued the 6v6 playlists. And what was so cool about it is that the supers themselves didn't change at all... the way people used them changed because the stakes were different. The risks involved were greater. In a control game, you can use a nova bomb to kill 1 player, get yourself killed due to being out of position, and its no big deal. But in trials, wasting a super like that could cost your team the match.

Oh man... I can't even begin to explain how much I miss D1 Trials of Osiris. Everything about it felt strategic, tense, exhilarating, full of tactical teamwork. I have a hard time explaining why, but D2 Trials of the Nine just feels different and 100% less fun.

Probably because you COULD pull off great plays and turn a match around. So the momentum of lots of games was constantly shifting.

I just think that a single player can't do that anymore. It's either one team played well and wins or they don't. It's not one team did poorly but the one guy did some amazing things which meant he won the 1v3 or something. It's harder to make individual amazing plays basically. You make amazing comebacks as a team or not at all.

Faster TTK allows for more deviation and variations. The slower the TTK, the more the skill gap settles into place.

Like, if in a fast TTK game you catch someone off guard, you can probably kill them even if they are better than you. But in a slow TTK game, where say, it takes 100 shots to kill (extreme example), you might get two shots off in the ambush, but if they are better than you by shot 50 they’ll have caught up.

Slower TTK levels everything out more.

I agree, I like slower TTK.

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I still think Year 1 Trials of Osiris was the place where Destiny supers really clicked in a great way. The nature of the elimination gametype motivated players to be less reckless with their supers, and hold them for moments when they could really make a key difference. It turned super usage into a sort of poker game. The matches were long enough that players would often get 2 or even 3 supers per game, but there was never that snowballing, runaway super-train scenario that plagued the 6v6 playlists. And what was so cool about it is that the supers themselves didn't change at all... the way people used them changed because the stakes were different. The risks involved were greater. In a control game, you can use a nova bomb to kill 1 player, get yourself killed due to being out of position, and its no big deal. But in trials, wasting a super like that could cost your team the match.

Oh man... I can't even begin to explain how much I miss D1 Trials of Osiris. Everything about it felt strategic, tense, exhilarating, full of tactical teamwork. I have a hard time explaining why, but D2 Trials of the Nine just feels different and 100% less fun.

Probably because you COULD pull off great plays and turn a match around. So the momentum of lots of games was constantly shifting.

I just think that a single player can't do that anymore. It's either one team played well and wins or they don't. It's not one team did poorly but the one guy did some amazing things which meant he won the 1v3 or something. It's harder to make individual amazing plays basically. You make amazing comebacks as a team or not at all.

Faster TTK allows for more deviation and variations. The slower the TTK, the more the skill gap settles into place.

Like, if in a fast TTK game you catch someone off guard, you can probably kill them even if they are better than you. But in a slow TTK game, where say, it takes 100 shots to kill (extreme example), you might get two shots off in the ambush, but if they are better than you by shot 50 they’ll have caught up.

Slower TTK levels everything out more.

I agree, I like slower TTK.

There is a balance. Games can get ‘boring’ with slow TTK. I like higher TTK to a point. You want to punish mistakes and let players seize moments, which faster TTK promotes. Destiny did this better IMO than Des2ny.

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Yeah, Destiny was a bit more about individually getting the drop on people. In Destiny 2, the name of the game is flanking. A good two prong flank works extremely well.

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This is an interesting discussion direction. I am responding to the last few posts in chain here. Longer time to kill takes the skills for base combat (aiming, ammo management, movement) and heightens the importance of those in regard to the skill ceiling - specifically in 1v1 or direct combat situations. In contrast, a shorter time to kill leads to a skill gap based first around secondary skills (map knowledge, weapon/gear familiarity, positioning and movement) but is more supportive of asymmetrical engagements allowing those secondary skills to enhance your primary skills during indirect and non-1v1 engagements.

It is an interesting balancing act for any shooter even before accounting for other variables.

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How often do players in Titanfall get more than 1 or 2 kills with a Core ability?

Legion mains would like to have a word with you...

Also, you're pretty wrong about Supers. Shutting them down isn't a daunting task, as for the most part, Supers cause a reduction in range, and the mobility makes them pretty vulnerable to grenades, snipers, Fusion Rifles, team-shots, and energy weapons. I ain't scared of a Super in D2, and with increased mobility, this will only be less of an issue.

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How often do players in Titanfall get more than 1 or 2 kills with a Core ability?

Legion mains would like to have a word with you...

Legion OP! lol

Also, you're pretty wrong about Supers. Shutting them down isn't a daunting task, as for the most part, Supers cause a reduction in range, and the mobility makes them pretty vulnerable to grenades, snipers, Fusion Rifles, team-shots, and energy weapons.

Everything you're saying is true, but my brain sorts that all into the basic stuff a player should be thinking about before they activate their super. I was playing IB a couple days ago, activated my Fist of Havoc, ran around the corner and got nailed by a rocket. I instantly kicked myself because I had just seen the Power ammo pop, I'd just read the text notification that the enemy team had picked up rockets, and I popped my super and ran at them anyway. That wasn't good defensive play on their part, that was me being a dumbass, lol.

I ain't scared of a Super in D2, and with increased mobility, this will only be less of an issue.

Perhaps. Hopefully it'll work out that way. But we won't know until we play it. I'm just concerned about the idea of more supers happening during the average PvP game. I'm really happy with how scaled back supers are at the moment.

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Or Scorch mains. Ronin mains. Good Tone Mains. And that’s only if you mean Titan v. Titan.

I think the comparison is really hard to make because Titan’s are running with limited mobility, minimal verticality, and much larger health pools. But a Scorch burning down a corridor or clump of enemy Titans is similar to getting a grouped up Fist of Havoc. For the most part Titan Cores are narrow in scope but have been nerfed down to be more a case of a power attack than being equal to a Destiny Super.

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Also, you are the one misrepresenting reality if you think Destiny supers "lock you in" to animations in the same way that Titanfall supers do. Titan Core abilities trap the player using them into actions that leave them quite vulnerable. It makes them quite difficult to use effectively. All you have to do is play the game for a few rounds and see for yourself; how often do players in Titanfall get more than 1 or 2 kills with a Core ability? It is VERY rare. I've pulled it off a few times in over 500 hours of play, and it feels like a serious accomplishment when you do it. That simply is not true with Destiny.

Time to agree to disagree.

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Meanwhile in Destiny, if I pop a super and kill fewer than 3 opponents with it ...

I think my average is 1.1.

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Speak for yourself, I rarely get more than two kills with mine. Actually I routinely get shut down when I try to pop by coordinated fire. But as a striker Titan, I have it easier because at least when I respawn I'll have my super again. I can't tell you the number of times Jackie popped her golden gun and then instantly lose it for a number of reasons.

Don't get me wrong, it feels great when you take out the entire team and I certainly do have those moments, but it doesn't always feel as much of an instant win.

Then again I play Crucible very differently than most of you guys. I'm a competent player and I've got a good KD ratio but I typically stick to primary and secondary weapons and don't worry about my super or heavy. Honestly I play it like Halo and I do fine.

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Then again I play Crucible very differently than most of you guys. I'm a competent player and I've got a good KD ratio but I typically stick to primary and secondary weapons and don't worry about my super or heavy. Honestly I play it like Halo and I do fine.

That's exactly how I try to approach the game, and it's why I'm so happy with the way supers are toned town in the crucible at the moment. I actually can focus on primary/secondary/grenade play and be effective and have fun :)

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Putting this here because I don't know where it fits best in these sub-threads...

How dare you, good sir?! I agree with the rest of this good, honorable DBO community in our stand against your completely outrageous assertion that getting less than 3 kills with a super means suckage!! ;-P

I think a big factor we're missing in this discussion of whether the over/under on super kills is (or should be) 3+ is the fact that we're stuck with 4v4 instead of the 6v6 of D1.

Getting 3+ kills with a super means basically wiping the the entire opposing team, and more often than not, there is no way to cover that much of the map regardless of how smart you were in timing when to pop your super and how skilled you were in executing with it. Obviously, some of the other design differences between D1 and D2 [being discussed here already] play a factor as well -- but let's not discount the fact that there are less targets at any given moment than we used to have.

As someone that plays Gunslinger almost exclusively in Crucible, I usually feel good to get two kills with a Golden Gun, not uncommon to only get one, very rarely get three, and more often than I'd like to admit get zero - and some of those times I even still feel like it wasn't due completely to fault of my own. If I had to pull a number out of my ass, I'd say I probably average 1.66 kills per GG, and I'm usually fairly tactical when I use it.

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I never really had a problem with supers in Destiny.

You often could save yourself. You hear a golden gun, so you run off where you can’t be shot. A well placed shotgun blast can kill a Titan before his slam lands (I remember in a trials match Ottermack being dumbfounded that he was killed in the air of his slam).

Even if they are a ‘win button’ everybody got at least one, so knowing when to use your win button was still important. Getting super kills so you can cap B and shift the tide will help more than 3 random kills.

Plus, supers were counters to heavy sprees.

I really truly think they had it right before.

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I never really had a problem with supers in Destiny.

You often could save yourself. You hear a golden gun, so you run off where you can’t be shot. A well placed shotgun blast can kill a Titan before his slam lands (I remember in a trials match Ottermack being dumbfounded that he was killed in the air of his slam).

Even if they are a ‘win button’ everybody got at least one, so knowing when to use your win button was still important. Getting super kills so you can cap B and shift the tide will help more than 3 random kills.

Plus, supers were counters to heavy sprees.

I really truly think they had it right before.

I think they had it right before as well. I just also think they have it right now as well. They D1 and D2 PvP are completely different beasts for different reasons.

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I never really had a problem with supers in Destiny.

You often could save yourself. You hear a golden gun, so you run off where you can’t be shot. A well placed shotgun blast can kill a Titan before his slam lands (I remember in a trials match Ottermack being dumbfounded that he was killed in the air of his slam).

Even if they are a ‘win button’ everybody got at least one, so knowing when to use your win button was still important. Getting super kills so you can cap B and shift the tide will help more than 3 random kills.

Plus, supers were counters to heavy sprees.

I really truly think they had it right before.

I think they had it right before as well. I just also think they have it right now as well. They D1 and D2 PvP are completely different beasts for different reasons.

To me one was more fun and felt more unique and fresh.

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I never really had a problem with supers in Destiny.

You often could save yourself. You hear a golden gun, so you run off where you can’t be shot. A well placed shotgun blast can kill a Titan before his slam lands (I remember in a trials match Ottermack being dumbfounded that he was killed in the air of his slam).

Even if they are a ‘win button’ everybody got at least one, so knowing when to use your win button was still important. Getting super kills so you can cap B and shift the tide will help more than 3 random kills.

Plus, supers were counters to heavy sprees.

I really truly think they had it right before.

I think they had it right before as well. I just also think they have it right now as well. They D1 and D2 PvP are completely different beasts for different reasons.

To me one was more fun and felt more unique and fresh.

Same here! But are we talking about different PvP's or the same? :D

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I never really had a problem with supers in Destiny.

You often could save yourself. You hear a golden gun, so you run off where you can’t be shot. A well placed shotgun blast can kill a Titan before his slam lands (I remember in a trials match Ottermack being dumbfounded that he was killed in the air of his slam).

Even if they are a ‘win button’ everybody got at least one, so knowing when to use your win button was still important. Getting super kills so you can cap B and shift the tide will help more than 3 random kills.

Plus, supers were counters to heavy sprees.

I really truly think they had it right before.

I think they had it right before as well. I just also think they have it right now as well. They D1 and D2 PvP are completely different beasts for different reasons.

To me one was more fun and felt more unique and fresh.

Same here! But are we talking about different PvP's or the same? :D

Who knows :-p

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I really truly think they had it right before.

I think they had it right before as well. I just also think they have it right now as well. They D1 and D2 PvP are completely different beasts for different reasons.

I think the current super timer might be ideal for 6v6 Crucible. More players will give you a little more opportunity to chain supers as a team, but it still won't be a super spam-fest. I'd like to see how that would make the pacing of Crucible feel, but it looks like we may be getting 6v6 and faster super recharge around the same time.

-Disciple

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I do get the appeal of supers in PvP. I just think it’s tough to create supers in a game like Destiny that fulfil the PvE Power fantasy without totally disrupting the flow of PvP. Supers in the crucible are basically “win” bottons. It’s almost impossible to screw them up. When a player pops their super, the onus isn’t on them to execute skillfully, it’s on the other team to be coordinated AF to take down the incoming super.

What I'd prefer to see in Destiny 2 is a more significant boost to the difference between kinetic and energy weapons offset by a significant increase in super charge time. Let kinetic weapons be the go to weapon to kill a Guardian until they pop their super and then you have to switch to your energy weapon to take them down.

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What I'd prefer to see in Destiny 2 is a more significant boost to the difference between kinetic and energy weapons offset by a significant increase in super charge time. Let kinetic weapons be the go to weapon to kill a Guardian until they pop their super and then you have to switch to your energy weapon to take them down.

I was under the impression that a kinetic weapon would do more damage to unshielded enemies and non-supered Guardians than the same type of weapon would do in the energy slot, with the reverse being true for shielded enemies and supering Guardians.

-Disciple

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What I'd prefer to see in Destiny 2 is a more significant boost to the difference between kinetic and energy weapons offset by a significant increase in super charge time. Let kinetic weapons be the go to weapon to kill a Guardian until they pop their super and then you have to switch to your energy weapon to take them down.

I was under the impression that a kinetic weapon would do more damage to unshielded enemies and non-supered Guardians than the same type of weapon would do in the energy slot, with the reverse being true for shielded enemies and supering Guardians.

-Disciple

That’s my understanding as well, but in practice I find I kill a fully shielded guardian just as effectively with my energy weapon as I do with my Kinetic.

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As said below it doesn’t seem to be applied in PvP. But even then in PvE the difference within an archetype is usually about 5-10% on health and a substantial difference on shields (something like 70%) depending in weapon class/archetype. So even applying that in PvP where there is a 15 point health variance (0 to 10 armor) on a Guardian, you likely wouldn’t notice an appreciable difference anyway. A 450 Auto rifle would do about 2 more points of damage per round and a Hand Cannon might be doing 4-5 more per shot.

It would only matter if that is enough to reduce HTK with a weapon on whatever armor stat that Guardian has.

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What I'd prefer to see in Destiny 2 is a more significant boost to the difference between kinetic and energy weapons offset by a significant increase in super charge time. Let kinetic weapons be the go to weapon to kill a Guardian until they pop their super and then you have to switch to your energy weapon to take them down.

I was under the impression that a kinetic weapon would do more damage to unshielded enemies and non-supered Guardians than the same type of weapon would do in the energy slot, with the reverse being true for shielded enemies and supering Guardians.

-Disciple

I'm pretty sure I mentioned this to another DBO player fairly recently and they were surprised. I think the problem is it's not a strong enough difference so most players don't even notice.

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I was under the impression that a kinetic weapon would do more damage to unshielded enemies and non-supered Guardians than the same type of weapon would do in the energy slot, with the reverse being true for shielded enemies and supering Guardians.

-Disciple

I'm pretty sure I mentioned this to another DBO player fairly recently and they were surprised. I think the problem is it's not a strong enough difference so most players don't even notice.

It's actually not true. In Crucible Kinetic and Energy do the same amount of damage to everything except supers. No difference whatsoever (same with perks that say they do more damage to shielded combatants). There have been a few tests done on this to confirm (and I'm pretty sure I've seen a Bungie employee confirm it on Twitter). Here is one such test:

https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/6zzvd8/kinetic_and_energy_math_to_put_this_confusion_to/

Notice that with PvP the damage is listed exactly the same for the same archetype of weapon.

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Normal guardian's don't have shields do they? I just consider a guardian to have regenerating health until they super, at which point you have your super providing a sort of energy shield. At least that's how I think it should work. When supered, a guardian should be more resistant to kinetic damage but weaker to energy/power ammo. That way you have to think about which weapon to use in each situation for the best results.

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Technically all Guardians have 70 health and 116-131 shields based on their armor stat. But as stated it is treated as identical for damage purposes. The game just treats it as health for crucible. Which is definitely a little disappointing. My suggestion I’ve made in passing before was energy does bonus damage on body shots until the end of a Guardian’s shield (also applies to overshields/supers) but the crit modifier on kinetic weapons should be higher and higher body damage on that 70 health at the bottom.

That is more in line with how they interact in PvE.

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I thought I remembered seeing someone (Fallout, maybe?) test this with the opposite result. They might have just tested PvE, though.

-Disciple

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I think you are overstating the value of D2 supers (the fact that they introduced the same perk into all masterwork armor seems like it points to data that people are fairly killable in supers) and understating the risk of T2 cores. (I especially liked that you recommended someone play a few rounds to check your theory - as if I ever got a core in the first dozens of games I played…::cry face::). In fact, I probably partly picked my most common Titan (monarch?) because the core can't be wasted.

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What makes Titanfall interesting is the movement, and the Titans. What makes Destiny interesting are the class abilities and supers. Reducing the occurrence of supers and class abilities would be like having Titans drop far less often and slowing movement down in Titanfall.

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I actually really like this comparison. Movement and Titans are both the biggest set-apart in Titanfall. Both of whih allow for most of the skill variance. There are easier to use core weapons that can help to offset some of the issues for the lower skill end.

Destiny 1 had strength in variety of viable options. To varying degrees, but grenades/special/heavy/supers were all things that could be used to expand the skill variance. And then with a shifting meta of primaries and ideal rolls you got a lot of interesting things out of D1. I would live to see getting back to that. Also where my MGs at.

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I felt a sudden need to re-post this. Not only because it felt right relevant (and is AWESOME), but because I'm actually hyped about these proposed changes!

AHHHHHHHHHHHHH! :D

I hope this ships.

One thing that I definitely feel when returning to Destiny from other games is how little "momentum" plays into the gameplay itself, when it's such a noticeable (and great) part of modern game design, especially when it comes to improving on the skill gap.

Destiny 1 sort of had this with Warlock gliding and Titan skating (not to say anything about those shotgun-sliding jerks, too), and even Blink had a risk-reward system, but movement in Destiny 2 feels really stiff, even though they got rid of Sprint cooldown. I'm not asking them to implement wall-running or bullet jumping, but I'd like to see a focus on smoother transitions between movement that take momentum into account.

Hopefully in making everything faster, the momentum issues don't become more noticeable.

You apparently haven't played a striker titan before :) Strikers are all about forward momentum. that's only half a joke, I understand you are talking about basic momentum.

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So, I refer to Titanfall 2 as any number of variants of "Go Fast." When it was the main game I was playing I'd solicit friends into games by asking them "you wanna Go Fast?"

So while I am mildly disappointed that they aren't adding in more advanced movement systems (why can't I jump out of a slide at least? Or Hunters out of a Dodge for momentum?) because I think Destiny with wall running and slide hopping would be hilarious, I had a chuckle.

Reverting the shoulder charge is probably the most warm feelings to my heart of the article, though.

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So, I refer to Titanfall 2 as any number of variants of "Go Fast." When it was the main game I was playing I'd solicit friends into games by asking them "you wanna Go Fast?"

So while I am mildly disappointed that they aren't adding in more advanced movement systems (why can't I jump out of a slide at least? Or Hunters out of a Dodge for momentum?) because I think Destiny with wall running and slide hopping would be hilarious, I had a chuckle.

Yeah, jumping out of a slide is specifically one of the things that I had in mind when writing that post. Titanfall 2 just nails movement and momentum to the point where being skilled in both will give you an edge in an otherwise equal fight.

And it makes so much sense that Warlocks should have an advantage moving through the air, Hunters should be able to dodge out of a slide, or slide post-dodge to maintain a low profile. I think this would make the game much more fun, and fit with the play style. Also, Titans should do an AoE damage when landing from on high...

Reverting the shoulder charge is probably the most warm feelings to my heart of the article, though.

Yeah, I pretty much exclusively used shoulder charge for movement in D2. Glad they learned the error of their ways.

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Reverting the shoulder charge is probably the most warm feelings to my heart of the article, though.

Yeah, I pretty much exclusively used shoulder charge for movement in D2. Glad they learned the error of their ways.

I appreciated their thoughts on why they decided to make the change in the first place as well as why they changed it back. Those little comments made total sense to me, if they hadn't said that I might have felt it was more like a "we tried to do something good and the community hated us for it so we should probably appease them and change it back"

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What did they change / are they changing back?

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What did they change / are they changing back?

From this week's update:

Finally, the Shoulder Charge changes that went in a couple of months ago have been fully reverted. Shoulder Charge's movement utility was perceived as more valuable than its damage utility, which made it feel bad to actually hit someone with Shoulder Charge. The movement was effectively a "free" dodge.

The goal of the untargeted distance nerf was to discourage using the ability as a movement mode by making it only effective when using it against enemies. In retrospect, we think this change was a mistake and we've heard you all say the same.

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What did they change / are they changing back?

From this week's update:

Finally, the Shoulder Charge changes that went in a couple of months ago have been fully reverted. Shoulder Charge's movement utility was perceived as more valuable than its damage utility, which made it feel bad to actually hit someone with Shoulder Charge. The movement was effectively a "free" dodge.

The goal of the untargeted distance nerf was to discourage using the ability as a movement mode by making it only effective when using it against enemies. In retrospect, we think this change was a mistake and we've heard you all say the same.

The original nerf was they decreased the distance of shoulder charge if you didn't have a target thus removing the dodging ability of it. If you had a target than it was the normal distance.

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Was it just the striker titan or all titan sub-class abilities that behave similarly?

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Was it just the striker titan or all titan sub-class abilities that behave similarly?

All shoulder charges of all sub-classes.

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Other than the Striker Shoulder Charge now being “Seismic Charge” the change was’t exactly applied evenly. My experience of Xbox was only on Breaker. Not only did it remove the mobility benefit but the range for triggering the full range of the attack felt inconsistent. Its application on PC was lopsided. Sentinel had no lunge, Striker no longer interrupted falling, and Subbreaker was mostly not impacted, there was a momentary delay between activation and an otherwise mostly unchanged lunge.

/more information than needed/

I used Shoulder Charge almost exclusively for mobility in D1. But it was infinite use so I wasn’t motivated to not actually hit enemies.

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What did they change / are they changing back?

From this week's update:

Shoulder Charge's movement utility was perceived as more valuable than its damage utility, which made it feel bad to actually hit someone with Shoulder Charge.

I'm REALLY glad they're changing it back, but I'm still curious as to why it was changed this way in the first place? If someone noticed that player reaction to shoulder charge damage was, "This is really not great as an attack, but at least it's useful as a movement ability," whose first thought was, "Let's get rid of its utility as a movement ability and force them to use the attack they don't like."

Still, at least once that patch goes live I can finally start playing my Titan on PC.

[image]

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I'm thinking they were hoping that reducing it's utility as a movement ability would cause more people to use it for damage. Bad logic if you ask me, but without trying the change you never know for sure how something will change player behavior.

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[*] The players’ ground speed cap has been increased, allowing for faster total movement speed, regardless of how you may get there.

[*] Arcstrider, Sentinel, and Striker all move faster, and at the same speed as one another, while in their Supers.

[*] Arcstrider, as a whole, is performing well in PvP but mostly due to its neutral game perks. We’ve made the following changes in an effort to get the Super to be a more competitive option:

Faster Attack Animations.

Faster Dodge Animations.

Increased range of all attacks.
[*] Supers recharge faster for everyone!

[image]

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Fusion Rifles are getting BUFFED?! YES!

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[*] Enemy players now drop their power ammo on death.

The dropped brick is available to anyone until picked up or 30 seconds have passed.

I like this change but I’m a bit confused. This goes all the way back to year one of D1 in terms of behavior. I wonder what made them decide to go back there rather than settling on increased frequency. Between this and the supers, and the added orbs from those supers and the increased numbers of targets (6v6), D2 is about to change drastically. I think I’m okay with that.

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I like this change but I’m a bit confused. This goes all the way back to year one of D1 in terms of behavior. I wonder what made them decide to go back there rather than settling on increased frequency. Between this and the supers, and the added orbs from those supers and the increased numbers of targets (6v6), D2 is about to change drastically. I think I’m okay with that.

I actually suggested this shortly after D2 launched. In D1 it was crazy because you're whole team could get heavy so dropping heavy on death just made the chaos continue. Now that only one person can get heavy at a time having the brick drop makes so much more sense.

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I like this change but I’m a bit confused. This goes all the way back to year one of D1 in terms of behavior. I wonder what made them decide to go back there rather than settling on increased frequency. Between this and the supers, and the added orbs from those supers and the increased numbers of targets (6v6), D2 is about to change drastically. I think I’m okay with that.

I actually suggested this shortly after D2 launched. In D1 it was crazy because you're whole team could get heavy so dropping heavy on death just made the chaos continue. Now that only one person can get heavy at a time having the brick drop makes so much more sense.

* Enemy players now drop their power ammo on death.
* The dropped brick is available to anyone until picked up or 30 seconds have passed.

It's also important to know that it drops for both teams! that wasn't true in D1 right? It only dropped for the team that killed the person?

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It's also important to know that it drops for both teams! that wasn't true in D1 right? It only dropped for the team that killed the person?

In D1 I'm pretty sure it only dropped for the player that killed the player with the Heavy ammo, but it persisted for the rest of the game. I specifically remember a game where I killed a player who dropped a brick, and I purposefully didn't pick it up to "save it for later". Then, I kept spawning on the other side of the map and I never made it back before the end of the game!

Anything to not have to search for and/or battle teammates for ammo boxes. I hated that change to special ammo in D1. I want to get back into the action as soon as possible!

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It's also important to know that it drops for both teams! that wasn't true in D1 right? It only dropped for the team that killed the person?

This is a key difference and I'm happy for it. It mimics the feeling in Halo of killing the guy with the shotgun and then picking it up as a reward. Now I can let the other team kill my teammate when he robs heavy from me so I'll get another shot at it.

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I like this change but I’m a bit confused. This goes all the way back to year one of D1 in terms of behavior. I wonder what made them decide to go back there rather than settling on increased frequency. Between this and the supers, and the added orbs from those supers and the increased numbers of targets (6v6), D2 is about to change drastically. I think I’m okay with that.

I actually suggested this shortly after D2 launched. In D1 it was crazy because you're whole team could get heavy so dropping heavy on death just made the chaos continue. Now that only one person can get heavy at a time having the brick drop makes so much more sense.

I like the idea of this one as well, though I wish they weren't also reducing the heavy ammo timer at the same time. Seems like one change or the other could balance things out (I'd prefer the dropped power ammo brick), but both changes at once might push things a little too close to making Crucible a rocket/sniper fest.

-Disciple

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I like this change but I’m a bit confused. This goes all the way back to year one of D1 in terms of behavior. I wonder what made them decide to go back there rather than settling on increased frequency. Between this and the supers, and the added orbs from those supers and the increased numbers of targets (6v6), D2 is about to change drastically. I think I’m okay with that.

I actually suggested this shortly after D2 launched. In D1 it was crazy because you're whole team could get heavy so dropping heavy on death just made the chaos continue. Now that only one person can get heavy at a time having the brick drop makes so much more sense.

I like the idea of this one as well, though I wish they weren't also reducing the heavy ammo timer at the same time. Seems like one change or the other could balance things out (I'd prefer the dropped power ammo brick), but both changes at once might push things a little too close to making Crucible a rocket/sniper fest.

-Disciple

The only reason they are lowering the timer on Heavy ammo is because they are lowering the time on supers.

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I like those changes. Do I need to have the Osiris DLC to have access to these things?

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