Are AAA+ games hurting the industry? (Gaming)
by Cody Miller , Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Saturday, November 26, 2016, 17:23 (2926 days ago)
Interesting assessment of the games industry. In summary:
1. People are buying Digital now, so brick and mortar stores are going, or will be going under, or shifting focus.
2. Games like Destiny and other MMOs like FF XIV, which are meant to played continuously, are keeping people from buying other games.
3. Young people are still doing poorly economically overall, and so prefer games mentioned above.
4. These AAA+ games will squeeze out the AAA market.
That investment isn't necessarily an appealing one. While Blizzard, Bungie and their ilk have a track record with this kind of game, few others studios can say the same. Given the investment required to create a game with such long-term appeal, and the requirement to sustain that investment on an ongoing basis post-launch, the financial burden is huge; and since success requires pulling players away from dominant titles in the market, the risks are vastly higher than they were in conventional AAA publishing, itself not a field for the risk-averse in the first place. In summary, the dominance of these titles and the damage they are doing to sales of AAA games threatens to ratchet risk and competition in the games business up yet another notch, launching the bar to entry skyward. We would be left with an industry that looks uncomfortably like the present status quo in mobile gaming; dominated by a handful of increasingly long-in-the-tooth games whose enormous revenue is funnelled into high-cost marketing for player acquisition, while new games struggle to pick up scraps from the tables of the giants and innovation, for the most part, falls by the wayside.
It's not an appealing future, and I may be painting it a little more bleakly than it deserves. If this year's tough climate for AAA launches does not recover as we move into 2017, though, we are most likely looking at an inflection point where the business model of console and PC gaming follows mobile in abandoning its boxed-game roots. That would be the death knell of physical retail and would signal a transition that would likely pull the rug out from under many studios and even publishers. Follow the data; it's not just a few tough launches, it's a major change of market climate whose impact will be far-reaching indeed.
There's a scene in LA LA Land where Sebastian is lamenting the fact that Jazz is dying, and he's trying his best to bring it back. His friend says that to save it means to change it. To move forward and re-invent it. The musicians he idolized were once revolutionaries, and it will take another evolution to save Jazz. Of course for Sebastian, changing it isn't saving it.
I kind of feel like Sebastian in a way. I don't really like the fact that traditional AAA gaming is on the decline. I'm all for progress, but not when it means ruining the core of the thing. I'm sure it will somehow work out, but it's a bit unfortunate that Bungie is ultimately helping to usher in the decline of the AAA game according to this thesis.
Betteridge's Law says "No."
by Korny , Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Saturday, November 26, 2016, 17:59 (2926 days ago) @ Cody Miller
I kind of feel like Sebastian in a way. I don't really like the fact that traditional AAA gaming is on the decline. I'm all for progress, but not when it means ruining the core of the thing. I'm sure it will somehow work out, but it's a bit unfortunate that Bungie is ultimately helping to usher in the decline of the AAA game according to this thesis.
It's hard to say that the industry is dying, when the focus is simply shifting. There are still games such as Uncharted, The Last of Us, Witcher, Deus Ex, Dishonored, Tomb Raider, Titanfall, Elder Scrolls, and even Halo. Games where you pay for a single package, and much of the focus is the standalone experience that you get for $60.
The industry focus has shifted onto persistent game worlds, where a developer simply needs to build upon the experience and expand on something existing for the established userbase, rather than having to start anew and enter another three years of uncertainty and risk. As a side effect, you're now paying for access to a game rather than ownership of it, which isn't inherently a bad thing, just different.
It's a shame, but if you look at the failures of Battleborn, Titanfall 1, and even The Division, you can see why publishers are hesitant to gamble with the new $60 experiences (even if some of them are the more financially-viable persistent worlds).
Titanfall 2 got a second chance, is getting high review scores across the board, and it's still adding up to disappointing sales numbers, which doesn't help the notion of $60 standalone AAA games.
The sad reality is that if games like that want to survive, they have to take a page from the "persistent world" market and add Microtransactions to help boost their revenue. Still, that is understandable, and also not a bad thing (others can foot the bill for improved support or a more consistent flow of content), if they keep things cosmetic.
It's the end of an era, in many ways, but not the industry. Still, some Publishers will panic, and pump out stuff like Infinite Warfare (which has Modern Warfare remastered as an obvious attempt to capitalize on Nostalgia in order to combat declining sales and brand fatigue), or Assassin's Creed: Who Cares.
Betteridge's Law says "No."
by ZackDark , Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Saturday, November 26, 2016, 18:12 (2926 days ago) @ Korny
Titanfall 2 got a second chance, is getting high review scores across the board, and it's still adding up to disappointing sales numbers, which doesn't help the notion of $60 standalone AAA games.
I'd blame that on the publisher. Seriously? Launch it smackdab between BF1 and CoD? The hell were you guys thinking?
Betteridge's Law says "No."
by Korny , Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Saturday, November 26, 2016, 18:37 (2926 days ago) @ ZackDark
Titanfall 2 got a second chance, is getting high review scores across the board, and it's still adding up to disappointing sales numbers, which doesn't help the notion of $60 standalone AAA games.
I'd blame that on the publisher. Seriously? Launch it smackdab between BF1 and CoD? The hell were you guys thinking?
And competing against another AAA EA title, no less. Still, understandable that everyone wants to get those big-budget titles out before the Holiday season.
Betteridge's Law says "No."
by CruelLEGACEY , Toronto, Saturday, November 26, 2016, 18:40 (2926 days ago) @ ZackDark
Titanfall 2 got a second chance, is getting high review scores across the board, and it's still adding up to disappointing sales numbers, which doesn't help the notion of $60 standalone AAA games.
I'd blame that on the publisher. Seriously? Launch it smackdab between BF1 and CoD? The hell were you guys thinking?
That was my thought as well. And really, if we're looking at it purely in terms of "what is best for Titanfall 2", then clearly EA did the game a disservice.
But Jeff Gertsman at Giant Bomb mentioned an interesting theory: he was wondering if EA is focusing more on the long term, "big picture" competition with CoD. He presented the idea that BF1 and TF2 coming out back-to-back ahead of CoDIF could act as a sort of "1->2 punch". For EA, the biggest challenge they face when trying to dethrone CoD is that massive group of players that buy COD every year automatically because all their friends are doing the same. His thinking is that by releasing BF1 and TF2 right before CoDIF, EA could be trying to tip the wavering CoD fan base over the edge and get them to simply "try something else".
"You like a more grounded, military shooter? Here's BF1. You like the futuristic sci-fi thing? Here's TF2".
From that point of view, it might not be such a bad plan. BF1 has received positive press, and TF2 is the critical darling of the year so far. Meanwhile CoDIF seems to continue the trend of a declining (but still very strong) franchise. It looks like even the mainstream "CoD every year" crowd is starting to look for something new.
i've been trying to pull my group away from COD for years...
by Durandal, Monday, November 28, 2016, 15:42 (2924 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY
My friends have a vary limited time to play, one to two evenings a month we get together for 2-3 hours for a gaming marathon after the kids are asleep.
they don't have time to grind. They don't have time to raid. COD was a nice, familiar safe zone for them. They didn't need to train to much to learn a new game, even through COD editions, and they seldom unlocked all the guns anyway so it wasn't to big an issue.
I've been trying to get them into different, less twitchy shooters for some time. Destiny ended up being too fast and to grindy, but Evolve, Titanfall, and Overwatch have worked. Overwatch's zero grind is especially appealing to them.
For everyone who wants to specialize and stream, there a are a bunch of "filthy casuals" who just want to mess around with their buddies every once and a while. Sadly, this demographic always gets swamped by the hardcore 24/7 gamers. They have all the prestige, money and pull people in.
Betteridge's Law says "No."
by Kermit , Raleigh, NC, Monday, November 28, 2016, 16:05 (2924 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY
Titanfall 2 got a second chance, is getting high review scores across the board, and it's still adding up to disappointing sales numbers, which doesn't help the notion of $60 standalone AAA games.
I'd blame that on the publisher. Seriously? Launch it smackdab between BF1 and CoD? The hell were you guys thinking?
That was my thought as well. And really, if we're looking at it purely in terms of "what is best for Titanfall 2", then clearly EA did the game a disservice.
But Jeff Gertsman at Giant Bomb mentioned an interesting theory: he was wondering if EA is focusing more on the long term, "big picture" competition with CoD. He presented the idea that BF1 and TF2 coming out back-to-back ahead of CoDIF could act as a sort of "1->2 punch". For EA, the biggest challenge they face when trying to dethrone CoD is that massive group of players that buy COD every year automatically because all their friends are doing the same. His thinking is that by releasing BF1 and TF2 right before CoDIF, EA could be trying to tip the wavering CoD fan base over the edge and get them to simply "try something else".
"You like a more grounded, military shooter? Here's BF1. You like the futuristic sci-fi thing? Here's TF2".From that point of view, it might not be such a bad plan. BF1 has received positive press, and TF2 is the critical darling of the year so far. Meanwhile CoDIF seems to continue the trend of a declining (but still very strong) franchise. It looks like even the mainstream "CoD every year" crowd is starting to look for something new.
I bought the bundle, which I found very attractive, and it means it's even less likely that I'll buy COD, although I'm not a regular buyer of the franchise regardless. Unlike most, I was actually more interested in this one than in the last few, but in my case time is great limiter.
Are AAA+ games hurting the industry?
by Kermit , Raleigh, NC, Saturday, November 26, 2016, 22:41 (2925 days ago) @ Cody Miller
About number one. Anecdotal evidence: just left Best Buy and it was packed. Most AAA games were for sale digitally.
Are AAA+ games hurting the industry?
by CruelLEGACEY , Toronto, Saturday, November 26, 2016, 23:26 (2925 days ago) @ Kermit
About number one. Anecdotal evidence: just left Best Buy and it was packed. Most AAA games were for sale digitally.
On a related note, it's worth pointing out that many branches of retail are down this year. I do think the AAA game space is dealing with some issues at the moment, but retail sales in general are not doing great, so I wouldn't be too quick to put the blame on the different styles of AAA games at the moment.
Are AAA+ games hurting the industry?
by Cody Miller , Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Saturday, November 26, 2016, 23:29 (2925 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY
About number one. Anecdotal evidence: just left Best Buy and it was packed. Most AAA games were for sale digitally.
On a related note, it's worth pointing out that many branches of retail are down this year. I do think the AAA game space is dealing with some issues at the moment, but retail sales in general are not doing great, so I wouldn't be too quick to put the blame on the different styles of AAA games at the moment.
Pretty much EVERY AAA game these days has either investment elements or microtransactions. Every single one. Many have both. The pressure is clearly there.
I would like to use Witcher 3 as a counterpoint...
by ZackDark , Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Sunday, November 27, 2016, 03:44 (2925 days ago) @ Cody Miller
But we all know it is a solitary point completely out of the curve by now. :/
I would like to use Witcher 3 as a counterpoint...
by cheapLEY , Sunday, November 27, 2016, 13:40 (2925 days ago) @ ZackDark
There would be plenty of counterpoints, but notice that he said "investment elements," which includes damn near every game made any more. RPGs automatically have investment elements by their nature of leveling up, and most multiplayer games have some sort of ranking and unlock progression systems. It seems like a silly thing to call out though, as that's just how games are made now, and having a multiplayer game without such a system is seen as detrimental--I've seen the first Titanfall called out many times for not having enough stuff to progress through. That's just what people want it seems.
I think there's an argument to be made that we're in the middle of the downfall of AAA gaming, but I'm not wholly convinced by that argument. It's not going anywhere, it's just shifting. Maybe that's a bad thing, but I don't know. I still think Hitman is the best example of this. It's easily in the top five games this year, and it's still the best argument I've ever seen for episodic gaming. I can wait for the package of Telltale games or something like Life is Strange, but Hitman, I believe, was an entirely different (and better) experience if it was played as content dropped. Six levels in 8 months, with a few smaller, special stages thrown in, along with the elusive targets--it was an active experience that encouraged folks to play the same level multiple times, something I wouldn't have done if the whole game had dropped at once. I know their games are very different, and the way they make content has to be different too, but I still think Bungie could learn a lot by looking at the way Hitman put out releases. If Bungie kept up with a pace even half of what Hitman did, I'd probably never stop playing it.
Don't get my wrong--I don't want to see every game turn into that. I don't want any more Destinys. I like games that I can say "Alright, finished that one. What's next?" and move on. I just finished the first Dishonored, and I loved every second of it. I also loved that it's traditional video game, and it has a clear end point, and no series of numbers that just keep getting bigger for no reason. But Dishonored 2 just released--those kinds of games aren't going anywhere as far as I can tell.
I've seen multiple posts all over the internet about how bad 2016 was for games, and it feels like a completely asinine statement to me. 2016 was the best year for games in probably ten years, it's just a different landscape. We're not being spoon-fed AAA releases anymore. With the rise of Steam and even the Xbox and Playstation digital stores, it's so easy to find a game to play. There are so many games now that I would seriously be happy if games just stopped releasing for two years so I could catch up and play everything I want (Two years probably wouldn't be enough time!). I would argue that anyone that says gaming is worse than ever just isn't paying any attention, or only wants to play AAA games as they were a decade ago.
I know that's not the argument you were making Cody--that's just a tangent I've been thinking about for a week or two after seeing post after post of how bad gaming is now.
Agreed.
by Ragashingo , Official DBO Cryptarch, Sunday, November 27, 2016, 14:49 (2925 days ago) @ cheapLEY
- No text -
I would like to use Witcher 3 as a counterpoint...
by Cody Miller , Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Sunday, November 27, 2016, 14:56 (2925 days ago) @ cheapLEY
RPGs automatically have investment elements by their nature of leveling up,
Untrue. See: Deus Ex.
I would like to use Witcher 3 as a counterpoint...
by cheapLEY , Sunday, November 27, 2016, 15:30 (2925 days ago) @ Cody Miller
RPGs automatically have investment elements by their nature of leveling up,
Untrue. See: Deus Ex.
You earn skill points and unlock new abilities in Deus Ex. That's leveling up.
I would like to use Witcher 3 as a counterpoint...
by Cody Miller , Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Sunday, November 27, 2016, 16:05 (2925 days ago) @ cheapLEY
RPGs automatically have investment elements by their nature of leveling up,
Untrue. See: Deus Ex.
You earn skill points and unlock new abilities in Deus Ex. That's leveling up.
But it is not an investment system as implemented in that game. Leveling up and gaining new skills does not automatically mean investment.
I would like to use Witcher 3 as a counterpoint...
by cheapLEY , Sunday, November 27, 2016, 16:33 (2925 days ago) @ Cody Miller
But it is not an investment system as implemented in that game. Leveling up and gaining new skills does not automatically mean investment.
What world do you live in? Is it fun there?
You have such narrow definitions for everything, I swear I need a Cody Miller dictionary just to have a discussion with you. It's exhausting.
You can't have it both ways, Cody. The skill points in Deus Ex aren't any different than the ones in The Witcher 3 or Dishonored or even Destiny. Sure, it gets muddy when you start talking about progressing through unlocks in competitive multiplayer, but, if that's what we're talking about then Deus Ex doesn't even enter the conversation.
I would like to use Witcher 3 as a counterpoint...
by Cody Miller , Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Sunday, November 27, 2016, 16:54 (2925 days ago) @ cheapLEY
edited by Cody Miller, Sunday, November 27, 2016, 16:58
But it is not an investment system as implemented in that game. Leveling up and gaining new skills does not automatically mean investment.
What world do you live in? Is it fun there?
You have such narrow definitions for everything, I swear I need a Cody Miller dictionary just to have a discussion with you. It's exhausting.
You can't have it both ways, Cody. The skill points in Deus Ex aren't any different than the ones in The Witcher 3 or Dishonored or even Destiny.
To ask if something is part of an investment system, as yourself if grinding it gives you any benefit. You can't grind in Deus Ex at all, since the EXP is given out as the game progresses, in fixed places and amounts, and the game has a finite duration. The augmentations are discovered in the game world. It's simply a part of progressing through the game.
You CAN grind say, Destiny's subclass skills (and in fact have to with the 3rd subclass).
Ask yourself if time or spent money determines your final skill set. That will tell you if it's part of an investment system. Another way to tell is to see if the resource that determines your power (items, exp, whatever) is in infinite supply.
That's an interesting distinction.
by CruelLEGACEY , Toronto, Monday, November 28, 2016, 00:21 (2924 days ago) @ Cody Miller
But it is not an investment system as implemented in that game. Leveling up and gaining new skills does not automatically mean investment.
What world do you live in? Is it fun there?
You have such narrow definitions for everything, I swear I need a Cody Miller dictionary just to have a discussion with you. It's exhausting.
You can't have it both ways, Cody. The skill points in Deus Ex aren't any different than the ones in The Witcher 3 or Dishonored or even Destiny.
To ask if something is part of an investment system, as yourself if grinding it gives you any benefit. You can't grind in Deus Ex at all, since the EXP is given out as the game progresses, in fixed places and amounts, and the game has a finite duration. The augmentations are discovered in the game world. It's simply a part of progressing through the game.You CAN grind say, Destiny's subclass skills (and in fact have to with the 3rd subclass).
Ask yourself if time or spent money determines your final skill set. That will tell you if it's part of an investment system. Another way to tell is to see if the resource that determines your power (items, exp, whatever) is in infinite supply.
If I'm following your point correctly, it sounds like the upgrades in Deus Ex have more in common with the in-game collectables of other games in terms of how it effects your gameplay loop. Similar to how power upgrades work in Quantum Break (in that case, power upgrades literally were collectables spread throughout the levels).
That's an interesting distinction.
by Cody Miller , Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Monday, November 28, 2016, 02:09 (2924 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY
If I'm following your point correctly, it sounds like the upgrades in Deus Ex have more in common with the in-game collectables of other games in terms of how it effects your gameplay loop. Similar to how power upgrades work in Quantum Break (in that case, power upgrades literally were collectables spread throughout the levels).
That sounds like it. Augmentations in the original Deus Ex were found items in the game world. One augmentation canister would give you the mutually exclusive choice between two augmentations.
It's true. Hasn't been any AAA games since Everquest.
by Funkmon , Sunday, November 27, 2016, 09:31 (2925 days ago) @ Cody Miller
edited by Funkmon, Sunday, November 27, 2016, 09:41
The continued success of crap like Madden, Fifa, Battlefield, etc with MMO RNG grindfest elements locked into certain game modes shows that while people are sucked into these, it's not destroying gaming, it just gives them a reason to play the same game more.
I understand that there is data that needs an explanation, and his is probably a good one. I question if bad launch week sales are appreciably hurting the industry. When people are bored of their games, they get new ones, and MMO players do play other games, but tend to pick them up on sale. I wonder if the increased numbers in discounted sales make up for it.
Yes and no.
by uberfoop , Seattle-ish, Monday, November 28, 2016, 19:29 (2923 days ago) @ Cody Miller
"AAA+" is just further integration of what the industry was already doing. It's sort of having the described effects, but that's not really much of a change in trajectory for AAA.
What'll happen as things come to a head is the interesting question. And has been for the last decade.