I'm speaking from experience I guess, so I've "tested" it but without recording numbers... 3-4 attempts on HM oryx, I died standing on the platform every time from the adds. Went to 311 and while I was low health a couple times, we were able to make it more like a regular normal attempt.

I don't have any hard numbers to back this up, but it certainly feels like a full level disadvantage from the year 1 days.

Yeah, I agree with both of you, that's certainly what it felt like. Maybe the "smoothness" of the light gains falls off a cliff when your facing enemies that are 10 light above you? If that's the case then how come we were able to take Oryx in normal mode when some of us (>ahem<, me) were seeing orange? Seems like there's shenanigans going on.

I'm speaking from experience I guess, so I've "tested" it but without recording numbers... 3-4 attempts on HM oryx, I died standing on the platform every time from the adds. Went to 311 and while I was low health a couple times, we were able to make it more like a regular normal attempt.

I don't have any hard numbers to back this up, but it certainly feels like a full level disadvantage from the year 1 days.

Don't we still have that? Raid gear. New Iron Banner gear. Trials gear. All that really needs fixing there is Bungie shouldn't have left all the PoE/Old Raid gear behind in light level. It's pretty silly that beating Skolas (which is still difficult?) only gets you weapons that hurt your light level.

Well that's rolling a few different issues together, as far as I can see.

In HoW, the unique gear was the reward for any given activity. In TTK, each activity does have unique gear... but the gear itself doesn't feel like a reward unless it happens to drop at a high light level. The gear is no longer the focus... the number is what many of us are chasing. In HoW I went out of my way to collect all the Trials gear because I loved how it looked. Now, I'm not happy about getting a new piece of Trials gear unless it drops at a level I can use. That's the difference I'm talking about: in HoW many of us were chasing cool new toys, in TTK it's all about getting that light level up.

As far as the old raids/PoE, that content still has a place in the overall progression of the complete "Destiny" experience. Players who start the game from scratch need stuff to do on their way from level 1 to 40. That said, I do wish there was a way to bring them into the end-game economy in some way... Cody's suggestion at the start of this thread would achieve just that.

Ultimately, I think there should be rewards only accessible by completing tough challenges, but putting players at a damage / health penalty vs other players is not one of those things. There should be ways to even out the penalties without needing teams of 3 or 6.

I'm not sure I follow you here. Are you talking strictly about PvP activities?

Ultimately, I think there should be rewards only accessible by completing tough challenges, but putting players at a damage / health penalty vs other players is not one of those things. There should be ways to even out the penalties without needing teams of 3 or 6.

at 310 the enemies you are fighting have orange level nameplates, meaning you are under-levelled to be fighting them. At 311 this is not the case. It's like lvl 30 vs lvl 31 in crota hard -- it's that big of a difference. Enemies do more damage to you, yo do less damage to them.

Yeah, I remember them being orange & then white when I hit 311. I'd just like to know some actual numbers behind the difference as I was under the impression that it should be a gradual change, & not a major jump like it feels like it is. Perhaps it's not really a huge jump but is just our perception that it is, perhaps it IS a huge jump (larger than 311-312). You know me, I just want some hard numbers on this. :) "Measure before you optimize dangit!" It should be pretty easy to test with just 1 quick wipe & a gear change or two to get the different #'s.

Looks like it will be for Petra. Which tells me it will more than likely not be for gear, but you never know.

I broke down all my Etheric Light within a few weeks of Y2.

If the choice is:

• Everyone makes progress by working at it and doing what they enjoy, but some things (or performing better) are worth more - everyone has fun, but the best win and get better rewards
  
• Only some things are worth doing and if you're not good at it or don't enjoy it you don't get to have fun - only winners have fun, losers are disincentivised to keep playing

then I'd definitely rather have the former.

The problem is that overall light level has an effect on damage too, and so armor becomes just as important. It was a pretty significant jump in damage during the Oryx fight from 310 to 311. That's one light level, so it shouldn't be that dramatic. There are still stair steps when it comes to enemy level - 10 levels below, 20 levels below etc. Wasn't this what the light system was supposed to avoid? It should be completely granular.

Yeah, what's up with that? I was under the impression that gains would be very incremental, & it sure seemed like there was a big difference between 311 & 310, especially in the Oryx fight. Bug? I would like to do some testing to see what the damage difference is when you drop from 311 to 310.

I have one character that can hit 300 now and another that tops out at 299, but that seems kinda fair to me based on what I've done.

I've played a lot of Destiny since TTK, but I've played ~1 card worth of Trials, almost but not quite one complete run of TTK's Raid, only a single week of Iron Banner and zero Nightfall strikes.

Should my Guardians be at 320 despite basically having done little to no high level content? Shouldn't I be at a minor disadvantage in Iron Banner / Trials since there are Guardians who have completed more end game stuff than I have?

Sure, I'd like to hit 320, but by suggesting a system that always has you progressing are we maybe advocating handing out 1st place trophies to everyone regardless of how much they actually accomplished?

Personally, I prefer the TTK approach: your rewards for beating the toughest challenges in the game were cool, unique weapons and armor, as well as etheric light. Players who consistently went to the lighthouse or beat Skolas every week had plenty to show for their efforts :)

And honestly, that line of thinking about handing out trophies is part of the problem. I shouldn't have to be in the top 1% of players to reach maximum level and get weapons that are worth a shit and actually fun to use.

As far as I can tell, once your gun is 310 or above it'll do fine in all the hardest content: The raid, Nightfall, and Trials. So, as long as you can get it to around 310, you should be able to use it anywhere you want to.

The problem is that overall light level has an effect on damage too, and so armor becomes just as important. It was a pretty significant jump in damage during the Oryx fight from 310 to 311. That's one light level, so it shouldn't be that dramatic. There are still stair steps when it comes to enemy level - 10 levels below, 20 levels below etc. Wasn't this what the light system was supposed to avoid? It should be completely granular.

Because of that, it's really important to get to 311. Beyond that, at least for now, doesn't provide a huge benefit. It may in challenge mode, so who knows. I'm completely fine with the idea that max level is not required, but simply provides smaller and smaller benefits as you progress toward it. I am in no hurry to hit 320. Right now I'd just like to have options that keep me at 311.

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but don't forget we are supposed to have a use for etheric light soon. PERHAPS it will be for leveling gear, maybe 1 point per light? Seems reasonable to me? I just wonder if they will be bringing it back or not. If not I doubt it will be for leveling, but if they do it could be?

Here is for hoping!

That would be… interesting. As far as I know the only way to GET etheric light now is PoE 34 and 35.

If etheric light does help level gear, then maybe that would solve Cruel's "chill" problem. The raid is for intensity, and PoE is for relaxing. Both progress you.

Sure, I'd like to hit 320, but by suggesting a system that always has you progressing are we maybe advocating handing out 1st place trophies to everyone regardless of how much they actually accomplished?

I don't think that would be the case at all, with Cody's proposed system. It would be entirely possible to hit 320 by just running strikes or playing regular Crucible. It would take a LONG time to do so, though. It would make EVERY weapon drop good for infusion fodder (although that would really exacerbate the weapon parts shortage, which I hadn't really thought about). Doing the Raid or Trials or Iron Banner would still significantly speed up the process and provide good incentive to do those activities. But it would make it so they're not REQUIRED to reach maximum level.

And honestly, that line of thinking about handing out trophies is part of the problem. I shouldn't have to be in the top 1% of players to reach maximum level and get weapons that are worth a shit and actually fun to use.

Here is for hoping!

I've played a lot of Destiny since TTK, but I've played ~1 card worth of Trials, almost but not quite one complete run of TTK's Raid, only a single week of Iron Banner and zero Nightfall strikes.

Should my Guardians be at 320 despite basically having done little to no high level content? Shouldn't I be at a minor disadvantage in Iron Banner / Trials since there are Guardians who have completed more end game stuff than I have?

Sure, I'd like to hit 320, but by suggesting a system that always has you progressing are we maybe advocating handing out 1st place trophies to everyone regardless of how much they actually accomplished?

My point is that if you are going to waste people's time, at least make them FEEL like they are getting somewhere by making sure that whenever they play, they progress.

That's pretty much how TTK works until about 290. I think that's what is so jarring about reaching the end game. Bungie has recreated the Destiny year 1 problem all over again. 170-290 is the new "1-20", and 290-320 is the new "20-30".

2 months after TTK, I have exactly 1 set of armor per character, and 2 of my 3 characters can't even do the heroic raid yet because their level is too low. And if I want to do the hard mode raid with the 1 character who is able to, I only have 1 specific combination of weapons that will allow me to do so. To me, the whole Light Level system of TTK is a complete train wreck.

Not to be overly cynical but this approach seems geared entirely towards keeping you playing as long as possible. I mean, that's what Destiny's progression system has always been about. Only they've moved away from HoW's "I want to keep playing to get cool stuff that I enjoy" it's "I have to keep playing so I can eventually do things I enjoy with gear I don't particularly enjoy, but it's that or nothing".

Not an improvement, if you ask me.

My point is that if you are going to waste people's time, at least make them FEEL like they are getting somewhere by making sure that whenever they play, they progress. You could make that progress less and less the longer you play, but it should be there. It could still take just as long, but if you are always progressing towards that goal, it's going to feel a lot better than FINALLY getting the drop you need, even if the time spent is the same.

So have a baseline progression you know will always happen that you can set the rate of, but then have drops be a BONUS to speed that up.

I don't even LIKE these types of systems and already I thought of a better one :-p