Destiny PvP lacks that virtual couch feeling for me. Everyone has their own agenda for the games, be it bounties, or leveling something, or chasing loot etc. The team games always feel like two teams of lone wolves to me.

Rev, thank you for putting words to a feeling I've had, but been unable to verbalize.

- MacGyver10

Yup. I basically stopped doing strikes in lists that have matchmaking when I'm not in a full fireteam. It's too annoying.

What do you mean? What's annoying about it?

I like starting a strike at spawn and shooting everything in my way until I reach the end. Even if that includes patrol areas and enemies that don't NEED to be killed in order to end the strike.

Some strikes can be speedrun almost all the way to the end, and take about five minutes to finish.

What I dislike is being forced to bypass enemies and rush through encounters instead of playing them, or worse, wiping to a checkpoint because a single player rushed ahead into a darkness zone and died because no one else had gotten there yet.

They complain that they can't enter a strike SOLO and do it by themselves.

That does make sense. I guess I misunderstood.

It was sort of a confusing discussion I think. He just used being dragged along by randoms as an anecdote to what happens because he can't play solo, I think.

They complain that they can't enter a strike SOLO and do it by themselves.

That does make sense. I guess I misunderstood.

I don't even know why I'm defending this. It confuses me that people would complain about not being able to explore with randoms in a game type that prioritizes lethal efficiency and forward momentum.

I don't either, because literally no one here has said they expected that. They complain that they can't enter a strike SOLO and do it by themselves.

Oh really? Do tell me how to get to the Narthex in Patrol mode.

It is unreasonable to expect randoms to do in-depth exploration during a strike with no advance notice. Exploring is the exact use case where teaming up with friends would be ideal.

If you're running a strike with the intent of shooting enemies and killing the boss, my experience is that matchmaking works fine.

I don't even know why I'm defending this. It confuses me that people would complain about not being able to explore with randoms in a game type that prioritizes lethal efficiency and forward momentum.

I would say that a large majority of the Destiny population don't approach strikes as "Let's do this fun activity and shoot some aliens" but rather, "Let's do this as fast as possible so I can maybe get an exotic or get some Legendaries to dismantle for coins."

To me, that sounds like a completely reasonable approach to Strikes and seems to be what they were designed for. I would alter it somewhat and say, "Let's do this fun activity and shoot some aliens and maybe get an exotic or get some Legendaries."

I don't do strikes when I want to explore. If I want to explore, I would do patrol or campaign missions.

You're basically making his point for him. Sure, that's how you want to play (and how most people DO play). That's not how he wants to do it, but because of the way Strikes work, he doesn't even get a choice. He plays them that way or not at all (or with patient friends, I suppose).

On a related note, Narcogen, I am definitely a slower player and love exploring the strikes, so if you see me playing Destiny and are in the mood for that sort of thing, send me a party invite and I'll join up.

I read this post a few times.

Part of me just wanted to post that "Old man yells at clouds" image in response.

I do that from time to time.

Part of me wanted to actually respond.

I'm at a place now where I read posts, and I think of something I'd like to say back (be it a sentence or essay) and I usually end up saying "screw it, it's not worth it. I don't know what changed.

My main takeaway is that you're comparing two things that are quite different.

Halo had Campaign and MP.

And Forge and Theater and even episodic content in Halo 4. But then they neutered theater... eh.

Destiny has Campaign, MP, Strikes, Raids, Patrol, Social Spaces.

Strikes, Raid and Patrol all fall under the collective umbrella of campaign to me. If I really wanted to split hairs, I would agree that they are more analogus to Halo's Fire fight as all those activities are PvE multiplayer.

I'm also going to throw out "social spaces". Any place you enter party chat is a social space in my mind. The pre-game lobbies of Halo were social spaces.

It seems you're measuring Destiny's campaign against Halo's campaign while leaving out all the new content types.

You ask if anyone has re-played any missions "just for fun" and say that anything giving a reward at the end doesn't count.

Yes. The only reward I got replaying Assault on the Control Room over and over and over again was my personal fun. Now I'm not saying you or others can't and don't have those moments with Desinty's campaign, but Destiny has to add incentives it's activities beyond basic fun.

Destiny becomes a game of "What do I get for doing this? What is my reward? Why do I want to do this?"

Of course, not everyone is going to look at it that way, even I didn't to a point. But then you only start to do activities BECAUSE you get rewards. "I still don't have my Hawkmoon, better run the nightfall 3 times and hope" is a prime example. Yeah, Bungie can randomize the rewards and the skulls and keep it a little fresher longer, but more people are inclined to play something because Desinty makes you feel like you "get" something out of it.

Halo wasn't like that (until Reach and 4 with credits system). I wasn't chasing anything other than a good time. Competition. Lol's with friends.

Yeah, I can still get those things in Destiny (and I have!) but rewards taint it. They change the focus for a lot of people. They can become a focus, rather than a bonus.

I've replayed all the missions--I've actually played through the entire campaign 5 times now. (Three titans, deleted two titans, made a hunter & a warlock.) I did that for fun.

That's good! I'd say you're one of the few. I was sad and confused on my very first play though as a Titan. I was bored an irritated at my second as a Hunter. The new content IS better. Yet it is NOT memorable to me like campaigns of other games. I've played it once and that's all I care to do.

Just last night I played some campaign missions just cause.

Above comment again.

To me, Destiny is actually fun. I wouldn't play it if I didn't have fun. I'm not a "keep up with the Jones'" kind of person--I've only beat one section of the raid, and my highest character is 297.

As I said before, Destiny to me *is* fun. But just *barely* fun. "Fun" is also subjective. My fun comes from exploration and discovery. A lot of that was ruined for me because I got to TTK late and all the mysteries had been solved. Obviously, I should have stayed away from here and I could have found most of the stuff on my own, to a point ( and I will for sure not make this mistake again).

Raid discovery, arguably Destiny's best feature is such a rush to do it now NOW NOW that it puts pressure on some (like me) to go quicker than we want so we don't get left behind.

Destiny can make you feel like you've been left behind.

I'm not opposed to timed events, they add to that discovery factor,like Sleeper stimulant. I was partially in the hunt for that but because of life, I missed the mission to get it. So it's a double edged sword.

I know these events will come around again, but until they do, I'm left out.

You guys are all fun to play with, but despite what you say an no matter how many re-assurances you give, I STILL DON'T WANT TO BE THAT NOOB WHO FUCKS UP THE RELIC IN VOG AGAIN. It's off putting, especially to newer players. Just a small example.

After a week of the content being out, I feel like I'm being punished for not knowing how some mechanic or encounter is supposed to work.

A lot of your complaints seem to come from a place of mismatched expectations. I play Destiny solo, a lot--most of my playtime. I can do campaigns, strikes, patrol, MP, whatever.

Yes. My expectations for Destiny were clearly different.

For strikes, the normal use case would be "beat the boss as soon as possible." If you want to explore, that's something you should gather a group of friends for.

No.

I should also have the option to do this solo. I do not.

You even say:

I shouldn't have to subjugate two of my friends to my wanting to stop and smell the roses, you know?

So why do you want to subjugate two randoms to that??

Ultimately I didn't, nor could I if I wanted to. I participated and cleared out rooms with them, but when I wanted to stop and sweep an area to sate my curiosity, they were running to the next encounter. To the point where it warps me up to them.

I can't stand those assholes who run so far ahead, GET KILLED, and then we all wipe. Especially when chasing a no-death bounty.

So why should I be subjugated to people who want to skip content to get to the end as fast as possible?

Maybe they should go join a party that wants to do that...

Hope this didn't come off too argumentative..

No not at all. Arguments are good. They keep you sharp and make you examine your claims, while forcing evaluations of other perspectives.

Thinned skin people who can't have a debate or discussion should get off the internet and go to their safe space.

Some of the game's systems interact poorly with treating your players like people, and with respect.

I can't even pretend to take you seriously when you start talking like this. I might agree with them not properly respecting time or play styles but not treating players as people? Cut the hyperbole. It's making you say things that are needlessly insulting. Or would you really have an entire conservative face to face with Bubgie employees about how they don't recognize their fans as people?

I would. And I have. In many ways, good chunks of Destiny seem to be geared at treating the players as nothing more than a population number that must be maintained, whether through psychological manipulation or outright addiction. They started the Skinner-box tactics back during Reach. It's not hyperbole. He's right when he says that some of the game's systems interact in such a way. Just some.

Destiny was as far as we know originally planned to subsist only on DLC releases, with no subscription or microtransations. When players are no longer playing and thinking about your game, DLC does not sell as well. Therefore, such a strategy requires making sure a large portion of your audience is always engaged with the game. Hence the design of the game systems.

The inclusion of Microtransactions changes the equation a bit, but the thing you never seem to grasp is pissing off your fan base (by not tresting them like people or whatever over the top words you want to use) will lead to less sales, not more. You simply don't sell DLC to people who hate your game. Your player base will go away, will never come back, and will broadcast how terrible your game is to everyone they know.

You would think that it would lead to less sales, but it surprisingly doesn't. And they know that. The entire bullshit over their pricing model that led to steady debate and macrotransaction talk a few months back probably hurt them in the immediate short-term, but not anymore. Especially a game like Destiny, which is designed to addict people in many ways. And they know it. And it works.

They also know they can treat you in not the best of ways and that you'll still probably end up coming back and paying more. This is normally where a 343 Industries rant would go, but dead franchise and such. People talk a lot but rarely actually stop dropping the cash. Destiny, luckily, has a lot of fun and great things about it, you know? That's a good chunk of what keeps a large amount of people coming back. A lot of the more player/consumer hostile techniques bring a lot of other people back based on how they're designed to trigger that urge to return. Addiction's a powerful tool, and Destiny has done a good job of making it work (and I say that with a lot of comtempt).

I'm mostly just glad that I feel like the chunks of Destiny that aren't potentially or outright abusive to players shine the brightest and take up a majority of the game. It's a great and good time. I just have serious concerns about how far down the rabbit hole Bungie will go with it all.

Bungie's actual motivation isn't to make bad systems to keep people playing, as that is nonsensical. Rather, it's to provide people with ongoing fun and enjoyment so they buy the next DLC or game and so they spread the news that your game is worth their friends picking up.

I think that's a bit too optimistic, but I get what you're saying.

Even a year and change later Destiby has some real problems. Some people do indeed stay away because of them. But many many more actually enjoy playing Destiny because it's problems aren't nearly as bad, or disrespectful, or money grubbing as you like to make them out to be.

I'd say they are, but the majority of the game works, especially when you have a group of friends playing together and having a blast. The business side of the whys and whats that Bungie does in the game definitely aren't as fun or friendly as you make them out to be.

Some of the game's systems interact poorly with treating your players like people, and with respect.

I can't even pretend to take you seriously when you start talking like this. I might agree with them not properly respecting time or play styles but not treating players as people? Cut the hyperbole. It's making you say things that are needlessly insulting. Or would you really have an entire conservative face to face with Bubgie employees about how they don't recognize their fans as people?

Destiny was as far as we know originally planned to subsist only on DLC releases, with no subscription or microtransations. When players are no longer playing and thinking about your game, DLC does not sell as well. Therefore, such a strategy requires making sure a large portion of your audience is always engaged with the game. Hence the design of the game systems.

The inclusion of Microtransactions changes the equation a bit, but the thing you never seem to grasp is pissing off your fan base (by not tresting them like people or whatever over the top words you want to use) will lead to less sales, not more. You simply don't sell DLC to people who hate your game. Your player base will go away, will never come back, and will broadcast how terrible your game is to everyone they know.

Bungie's actual motivation isn't to make bad systems to keep people playing, as that is nonsensical. Rather, it's to provide people with ongoing fun and enjoyment so they buy the next DLC or game and so they spread the news that your game is worth their friends picking up.

Even a year and change later Destiby has some real problems. Some people do indeed stay away because of them. But many many more actually enjoy playing Destiny because it's problems aren't nearly as bad, or disrespectful, or money grubbing as you like to make them out to be.

I don't do strikes when I want to explore. If I want to explore, I would do patrol or campaign missions.

Oh really? Do tell me how to get to the Narthex in Patrol mode.

And to be clear, I agree that Destiny's actual gameplay is fun. It's the loot grind that comes along with it that I don't like, and it's so pervasive that it ruins the entire experience for me. If there were a way to play Destiny without the loot grind, I would.

I did it for the most part with TTK:

1. Play through the story.
2. Play through the post story quest lines leading up to the raid.
3. Play the raid.

I did all that, and there was little to no grind. After that is a different story. I'm simply not motivated to reach the 310+ supposedly needed to beat Oryx on hard.

You go from being unfairly negative to being willfully and maliciously dishonest when you refuse to acknowledge that Destiny was designed to be fun by people with good intentions. The game isn't perfect. Some of its systems interact poorly with some players' schedules and play styles. But you aren't being remotely realistic in your criticism here.

:(

Some of the game's systems interact poorly with treating your players like people, and with respect. You cannot with a straight face say that many of the objectionable design decisions in Destiny were honest attempts to make the game better. They are about keeping players playing so that their business model will work in funding their 10 year plan. In a roundabout way yes, it may be about fun, since no money = no way to make the game.

Destiny was as far as we know originally planned to subsist only on DLC releases, with no subscription or microtransations. When players are no longer playing and thinking about your game, DLC does not sell as well. Therefore, such a strategy requires making sure a large portion of your audience is always engaged with the game. Hence the design of the game systems.

These are business decisions. Of course Bungie is trying to make the game fun (they've made huge strides in Taken King) but ultimately they need to be able to fund development.

I would say that a large majority of the Destiny population don't approach strikes as "Let's do this fun activity and shoot some aliens" but rather, "Let's do this as fast as possible so I can maybe get an exotic or get some Legendaries to dismantle for coins."

To me, that sounds like a completely reasonable approach to Strikes and seems to be what they were designed for. I would alter it somewhat and say, "Let's do this fun activity and shoot some aliens and maybe get an exotic or get some Legendaries."

I don't do strikes when I want to explore. If I want to explore, I would do patrol or campaign missions.

And to be clear, I agree that Destiny's actual gameplay is fun. It's the loot grind that comes along with it that I don't like, and it's so pervasive that it ruins the entire experience for me. If there were a way to play Destiny without the loot grind, I would.

Just re-read the article. I was mis-remembering some of it (my bad), but this line is very clear to me:

Halo and Destiny aren't the same game, of course, but they're close enough that playing the latter so rabidly has completely doused my desire to play the former.

More importantly, I think it is clear to me that this article is being written by someone who enjoys Destiny. So your assumption that Destiny is not built on fun is kinda coming out of nowhere. You're entitled to that opinion, of course. But that is not the point this article is making.

Every game developer, film maker, author, and artist worries about how their efforts will be received. But insecurity is absolutely not the reason or main reason Jason Jones said what he said. His quote was spoken in regards to finding more ways to entertain given the time and money limits of game development.

If that were true, then Destiny would have been made very differently… without being exploitative. These "skinner box' elements are tricks. You wouldn't have to play tricks if you were confident in your product.

You go from being unfairly negative to being willfully and maliciously dishonest when you refuse to acknowledge that Destiny was designed to be fun by people with good intentions. The game isn't perfect. Some of its systems interact poorly with some players' schedules and play styles. But you aren't being remotely realistic in your criticism here.

:(