I'm ok with a Radiant Skinned Sunsinger surviving one shot because they had to give up other very significant options and because, frankly, Radiance isn't anywhere near as dangerous as most Supers.

Yeah that doesn't bother me because Sunsingers are WAY less dangerous than Sunbreakers.

I'm ok with a Radiant Skinned Sunsinger surviving one shot because they had to give up other very significant options and because, frankly, Radiance isn't anywhere near as dangerous as most Supers.

That makes sense.

I definitely understand Titan's feelings on this, but having a subclass that needs buffing does not somehow balance out one that REALLY needs nerfing. [...]

This isn't to say that I think Defender doesn't need a buff, because it totally does, but the Sunbreaker balance at the moment is affecting PvP a lot more than the Defender balance.

Yeah, I agree. After looking at the comparison the Sunbreaker sublcass does seem like it could use a nerf, but gosh it sure feels wonderful to have a great super as a titan for once. :)

PvP Sunbreaker is too tough and can kill too many too easily, but in PvE they're arguably even better!

Each shot of PvE golden gun, without any buffs, does 864 damage at 299 light to a raid thrall. My scout rifle does 1064 with a critical and 842 with a normal hit. So my GG is basically a high impact scout rifle that can't critical, has only 3 shots, takes 2 seconds to turn on, and has a 4 minute reload.

Huh, so is there a big disconnect between Crucible GG and PvE GG? FOr instance if my Warlock were that Thrall in PvP the GG shot (at 864?) WOULD kill me unless I have some very specific Sunsinger build on... But that would mean that a headshot from your Scout rifle would more than kill me? I'm missing something.

Perhaps Gunslinger's super is under powered in PvE but the damage is much higher in PvP?

Yeah, the PvE damage of GG is atrocious and is definitely not a direct relation to the PvP damage. You can GG anything that you could critically 1-shot anyway, which - to my - means why bother with GG? It's only good for popping solar shields, or (with Nighthawk) doing large damage to a boss. Even Nighthawk doesn't 1-shot the crota knight, even if that night is tethered by another hunter's shadow shot. It's stupid. Plus GG can't crit, so it does less damage than almost any other weapon against some bosses like Golgoroth.

That being said, while GG is definitely decent in PvP, I don't think anyone should be able to survive a single shot of a super, with the exception of Defender Titans in their bubbles (who take 3 shots- 2 to pop the bubble and the third to kill the defender).

I mean, the crux of my argument is GG sucks in PvE and, while decent in PvP, does not at all compare to the Sunbreaker, which needs nerfing.

Huh, okay thanks. Looking at those numbers for PvE then, GG definitely needs a boost. I don't think boosting it in Crucible will change much though, as it is already a one-hit kill most always :)

Yeah no argument there :)

Just make it so I can one shot a Sunbreaker and I'll be happy. (Which is more a Sunbreaker issue than a GG issue)

Huh, so is there a big disconnect between Crucible GG and PvE GG? FOr instance if my Warlock were that Thrall in PvP the GG shot (at 864?) WOULD kill me unless I have some very specific Sunsinger build on... But that would mean that a headshot from your Scout rifle would more than kill me? I'm missing something.

Perhaps Gunslinger's super is under powered in PvE but the damage is much higher in PvP?

Yeah that's actually the way all Guardian abilities in Destiny work. The scaling for PvP is significantly different than PvE.

Huh, okay thanks. Looking at those numbers for PvE then, GG definitely needs a boost. I don't think boosting it in Crucible will change much though, as it is already a one-hit kill most always :)

And of course from the main topic, while Golden Gun only has the one weakness in Crucible, it doesn't have nearly as many strengths as Sunbreaker :)

My memory could be fuzzy but I am fairly certain that a Nova Bomb cannot one-shot Majors either. Maybe if I get a direct hit on him, which is much harder to do than GG, it kills him, but I'm not even sure of that. I think we need hard numbers but my general experience is feeling that GG or Striker outclass Nova in nearly every situation.

I was talking about this with Beorn last night. Nova Bomb has perks that can help you kill Majors (Vortex and Bloom for example), so for example if there is a group of trash adds and a major bloom can kill all the trash which does additional damage to the Major and can kill it. In comparison no (non-exotic) perk can increase the amount of damage that it does, only the area in which it does that damage (with Combustion), which is a tiny area.

But even if that's not true, how does GG outclass Nova without Nighthawk? You do at least a comparable amount of damage to a large area that GG gets in 3 shots on a single target.

Vortex is only helpful if your enemy decides to stay still in the big swirly ball of pain. Some do, but it is less likely with new bosses which dynamically move around. I'll have to trust you on Bloom killing the major as long as he is stationary, I don't have the hard numbers on that.

As for outclassing though I think the biggest thing is GG's range and lack of travel time. Nova is honestly useless at range in Crucible because any reasonable player can watch it slowly comes towards them. If the Nova has tracking on they can literally dodge it with a single jump, because tracking will pull it away from the ground and it will wiff under their feet. Nova's blast radius is tiny and only made semi reasonable with Annihilate selected. Sadly the splash damage isn't all that effective. If I spot a GG user popping their super, the lack of travel time on that shot makes my death immediate. If someone spots me nova bombing they can jump out of the way as my Nova travels toward them and continue putting shots on me.

Nova is still very useful at close range. But you can't use it as close as a panic smash, because firing too close will kill you. And you don't get the mad resistance of a Striker while using it either. The big benefit Nova has is keeping it if you get killed in the animation. But as Bungie described it as a "Glass Cannon", that's kind of the intent. They want you vulnerable as you use it

Each shot of PvE golden gun, without any buffs, does 864 damage at 299 light to a raid thrall. My scout rifle does 1064 with a critical and 842 with a normal hit. So my GG is basically a high impact scout rifle that can't critical, has only 3 shots, takes 2 seconds to turn on, and has a 4 minute reload.

Huh, so is there a big disconnect between Crucible GG and PvE GG? FOr instance if my Warlock were that Thrall in PvP the GG shot (at 864?) WOULD kill me unless I have some very specific Sunsinger build on... But that would mean that a headshot from your Scout rifle would more than kill me? I'm missing something.

Perhaps Gunslinger's super is under powered in PvE but the damage is much higher in PvP?

Yeah that's actually the way all Guardian abilities in Destiny work. The scaling for PvP is significantly different than PvE.

Each shot of PvE golden gun, without any buffs, does 864 damage at 299 light to a raid thrall. My scout rifle does 1064 with a critical and 842 with a normal hit. So my GG is basically a high impact scout rifle that can't critical, has only 3 shots, takes 2 seconds to turn on, and has a 4 minute reload.

Huh, so is there a big disconnect between Crucible GG and PvE GG? FOr instance if my Warlock were that Thrall in PvP the GG shot (at 864?) WOULD kill me unless I have some very specific Sunsinger build on... But that would mean that a headshot from your Scout rifle would more than kill me? I'm missing something.

Perhaps Gunslinger's super is under powered in PvE but the damage is much higher in PvP?

My memory could be fuzzy but I am fairly certain that a Nova Bomb cannot one-shot Majors either. Maybe if I get a direct hit on him, which is much harder to do than GG, it kills him, but I'm not even sure of that. I think we need hard numbers but my general experience is feeling that GG or Striker outclass Nova in nearly every situation.

I was talking about this with Beorn last night. Nova Bomb has perks that can help you kill Majors (Vortex and Bloom for example), so for example if there is a group of trash adds and a major bloom can kill all the trash which does additional damage to the Major and can kill it. In comparison no (non-exotic) perk can increase the amount of damage that it does, only the area in which it does that damage (with Combustion), which is a tiny area.

But even if that's not true, how does GG outclass Nova without Nighthawk? You do at least a comparable amount of damage to a large area that GG gets in 3 shots on a single target.

I'm not really sure why people think the Sunbreaker is so unkillable. I've died plenty of times as a Sunbreaker with my super up. Like with pretty much any super, it's usually best to just avoid the person with their super, but if not you can kill them. Sunbreakers only gain health if they are getting kills, not by magically throwing hammers.

It's not that they are impossible to kill, it's that every other super that has the ranged killing power that the Sunbreaker has has WAY less armor. Even Bladedancer, who pretty much everyone used to consider broken, dies from a single high impact sniper headshot or from a high impact shotgun shot and melee. Sunbreaker can kill from MUCH further away and has MORE armor, AND the health regen perk that everyone also hated on Bladedancer.

You have 3 times whatever the damage of one shot is...or one Celestial Nighthawk shot. Are you talking about damage output or potential to kill large groups?

Both in a way. Like I said in one of my responses it takes all three of my shots to MAYBE kill a major enemy, or I can put on Nighthawk and kill that enemy with one shot. Either way, I (maybe) kill ONE enemy. Meanwhile a Titan or Warlock comes in and levels an entire group of enemies, including the major. So you either have a mediocre super for killing groups, or a fantastic super for killing higher HP enemies at the price of using your exotic to do it compared to the Titan and Warlock's supers without exotics being better at both.

My memory could be fuzzy but I am fairly certain that a Nova Bomb cannot one-shot Majors either. Maybe if I get a direct hit on him, which is much harder to do than GG, it kills him, but I'm not even sure of that. I think we need hard numbers but my general experience is feeling that GG or Striker outclass Nova in nearly every situation.

Sunbreaker's greatness makes up for the Defender's complete uselessness.

Nerf Sunbreaker? Then please buff Defender, because Defender is still just a giant "get your kills here" target in PvP.

I definitely understand Titan's feelings on this, but having a subclass that needs buffing does not somehow balance out one that REALLY needs nerfing. If you have a useless subclass, people just won't play it much and you won't notice. Having an OP subclass will be much more noticeable and game breaking.

This isn't to say that I think Defender doesn't need a buff, because it totally does, but the Sunbreaker balance at the moment is affecting PvP a lot more than the Defender balance.