Curiously this sounds weird when slightly changed: She saw the person and picked it up.

Why would one of these be wrong or even sound wrong when both are essentially identical. We don't know the gender of either the baby or the person. However we do define a person as specifically human where the baby could be another animal or even a seedling plant I suppose. I guess we would assume we know the gender of a person but a baby, whether human or animal, would be more difficult to tell on first observation.

I personally think the use of gender pronouns is more of a way of quickly identifying a person during communication, rather than trying to define who/what someone is. If we all refered to each other by a singular gender neutral pronoun, this would make communication very difficult. Gender is/was usually easy to identify visually, and thus the pronouns evolved.

Good question.

A New Monarchy fire team that visited the Lighthouse did in fact experience odd effects. Maybe our Light protects us somewhat?

That can't be it, because I've fought in places the light can't touch, like the Vault of Glass or the numerous 'darkness zones'.

Hopefully this will be explored further and I think it will be as the effects of Vex exposure seem to be very closely related to Maya Sundersh's and the Future War Cult's odd Golden Age machines.

Maybe our guardian is somehow 'special'. Ever wonder why the computer thinks we are Dr. Shim?

Or maybe it's a plot hole.

That's neat.

I also can't remember many (or any) gender specific pronouns being there. It's all you, your, and Guardian.

Also neat.

I can really only speak about situations not my own from what I've heard and learned from others. Lived experience is powerful in these kind of discussions, I try to defer to that whenever and however I can. I'm just a straight dude.

Seriously? Your response to "Bungie isn't perfect" is "go make your own game"?

Of course not. My reaction to "Bungie should have more female characters to fill out a quota" is an invitation to step down from your soapbox and be the change you want to see.

A character's gender matters. If I write a story where the main character is female, it's because that gender fit that character. Could be a lot of reasons for it. But if their gender doesn't matter, it's because they aren't that important to begin with, and I have better things to do than make sure that every category on the diversity checklist is crossed out. Perhaps the writers of Destiny feel likewise.

Sheesh, man, leave yourself somewhere else to go to. What if I had actually criticized them? How hurt would you feel then?

Depends on what you're criticizing them for. There's a lot of stuff Bungie has done in the past few years that merit scrutiny. Not revamping their story to include a 50/50 gender divide ain't one of them.

I suppose I've been kidding myself all this time that because Bungie's games were nowhere near as bad in this respect as the worst examples in the field, or even of the average mainstream game, that Bungie fans were as well. This thread seems to demonstrate otherwise, unfortunately.

Oh, come on now, you're better than that.

That wasn't at issue. I talked about how many characters there are, how they are portrayed and utilized within the game, and supported the OP's general position that there is an imbalance in Destiny's game world. That it exists is not a matter of opinion-- it is there.

Yes, if we're talking about a purely demographic breakdown of the characters in Destiny, there is a disparity between male and female characters. Nobody is denying that the disparity exists. We are disputing that the disparity is inherently sexist or needs to be corrected.

And because we disagree, we are automatically as bad as the little shits who scream at women in multiplayer and send death threats? You have lost all sense of proportion.

I suppose I've been kidding myself all this time that because Bungie's games were nowhere near as bad in this respect as the worst examples in the field, or even of the average mainstream game, that Bungie fans were as well. This thread seems to demonstrate otherwise, unfortunately.

Claude said it much better than I'm about to, but this really bothers me. The implication that I'm a sexist is pretty fucking insulting actually, and it's not something to be thrown around lightly.

Let's break this down for a second, just as an overall summation of this thread.

Bungie is sexist because not enough Raid/Strike bosses are female. But Eris is potentially going to turn bad, and that's also a no-no and sexist. How's that add up?

Bungie is sexist because there aren't enough important female characters. I would argue that statement is totally wrong. The three most important characters in Destiny are the Exo Stranger, Queen Mara Sov, and Eris. The Stranger alerts us to the threat of the Vex, arguably the main driving force of vanilla Destiny's narrative. Mara Sov helps us with that threat by helping us find the Black Garden. Eris alerts us and helps us defeat both Crota and Oryx. You could argue that someone like Zavala or the Speaker is more important by his position at the Tower, but neither of those characters drive the narrative forward at all, so that's not really a point that can stand as far as I'm concerned.

The only really important male character so far, narratively, is Cayde. Seems like Bungie has a pretty good handle on the situation, but maybe I'm missing something.

I guess if you break it down to counting them like cattle, yeah, women are underrepresented in Destiny. But's that pretty much the only way you can reach that conclusion.

A New Monarchy fire team that visited the Lighthouse did in fact experience odd effects. Maybe our Light protects us somewhat? Maybe the effects were far more pronounced in the Ishtar scientists because they didn't wear armor when first exploring Vex structures?

Hopefully this will be explored further and I think it will be as the effects of Vex exposure seem to be very closely related to Maya Sundersh's and the Future War Cult's odd Golden Age machines.

But is it sexist to create a story within the framework of the aforementioned sexism in a way that neither approves of nor decries it, but nonethless bears elements of it and mimics it? That's a much more complicated question and answer.

Of course, I'd hesistantly suggest that there's basically no important characters at all in Destiny, but Cody has a point.

I think because the exos were created from someone who did at some point have a gender.

Right. It seems to be shaping up that having organics fight Vex, especially across Vex structures, is a very bad idea. Vex and their structures are partially organic and cause hallucinations in Humans and their technological nature may also let them attack human minds directly. Exo's seem to have been humanity's solution either via remote mind linked control or directly inhabiting the Exo bodies. Why Exos appear to have gender is as yet unanswered. Maybe matching up body parts makes neural control more seamless? Maybe it was simply a choice offered? We just don't know yet. For all we know there are genderless Exos. Tower Frames appear genderless aside from custom voices after all.

One interesting thought: What if every Exo from Cayde-6 to our Guardian is still being remotely controlled by the original people?!

It's interesting how peoples minds find offense where clearly none was intended.

Sexism on an unconscious and/or subconscious level doesn't have to imply malice.

I mean... You do know that men and women aren't the same, right? And technically nature made it that way. Biology is different, sexuality is different, psychology is different, genetics, bone structure, musculature. Sure, there might be some overlap here or there (in extreme outliers, again nature is kind of a dick (or bitch) and does this rarely at times), but men and women, by natural biology are different. Is that sexist?

Look at world record sprinters in the categories of males and females... They are different categories. Is it sexist that men and women compete in separate categories in athletic events? Or is it because it makes sense for some reason? Is nature sexist because those records are so different?

Who gets to define all the parameter's of equality? Does nature count or are we trying to undo the apparent inherent sexism there?

Do the Hive really even have gender?

Cayde-6 is funny, really he is the only funny character in Destiny, he is also male ish, does Bungie think women aren't funny? Boom. Sexist.

Eris is kind of crazy, and is clearly the most mentally unstable main character, and also a woman, does Bungie think women are crazy? Boom. Sexist.

You might agree with those last two sentences, but I was making a joke because clearly those are ridiculous statements. They are reaching for something that isn't truly there.

Destiny is actually quite ambiguous about sexuality. I don't think Orge's have gender in this game. I'm not sure the Hive really have it in the same way we think about this in real world (aka meaningful) ways. Do Exo's really have gender? Who knows!? Aren't they robots? Non-Organic... Everything you and I know about sex and gender is dependent on it being a form of organic life. Why are we talking about sexism, when bigger issues of higher order are not settled between us forum goers? Things like, "What is truth?" "Who decides it?" "What is good and evil." That might be fun. But actually, it wouldn't be fun.

Fallen are confirmed to have women (not in game yet), Hive have women, Cabal is ???, and Vex are genderless.

If the Vex are genderless, why aren't Exos?

I suppose I've been kidding myself all this time that because Bungie's games were nowhere near as bad in this respect as the worst examples in the field, or even of the average mainstream game, that Bungie fans were as well. This thread seems to demonstrate otherwise, unfortunately.

I disagree with your stance in this thread (I'm pretty much on the same page as Raga, actually), but this statement is over the top. The thread, as a whole (I'm not counting the trollish nature of the opening post), is a pretty reasonable discussion by people who are thinking about the issue at hand and not, for the most part, insulting one another. You take issue with one of the only examples of a personal attack (a relatively mild one, at that), and your response is that we've demonstrated that Bungie fans are as bad as the worst examples in the field?

You're better than that, Narc.

2. Stop using sexist "he/she" pronouns when describing persons who could be genderfluid. Until Bungie explicitly specifies their preferred pronouns (i.e. not inferred from other characters in-game since they could be making the same mistake you are) you should use acceptable gender-neutral ones instead.

There exists no singular gender neutral pronoun in the english language. It's literally impossible to refer to one person without assigning gender. Technically, to be grammatically correct you are supposed to use 'he' if you do not know.

How can you say that the two have nothing to do with one another? You don't know that. In fact, given the situation of extremely tight resources and the need to add more memory using features the most logical answer is to remove something. The removal of Tess was the most logical answer as the role she served was handled by some of the replacing features.

Maybe Cayde sent Tess to the dreadnought first, and she messed up…

The world of Destiny is quite diverse. Notable female characters in positions of power include: Mara Sov, Queen of the Awoken (who are a matriarchal society by the way),

A little bit more than that. The only male Awoken we've even seen on the rift is Prince Uldren (presumed dead) and although he wasn't in charge he sort of acted like he was. There's obviously something unique about the reproductive cycle on the reef that's yet to be explicitly explained in-game.

Ikora Rey, one of thee Vanguard leaders who command all of the Guardian forces,

Yup, one out of three! Women are 33% of the population, right?

Maya Sundresh who has a good chance to be the Exo Stranger and who almost certainly was the basis of the Future War Cult,

Mentioned only in the grimoire.

and who, if you read somewhat carefully, had a wife, Omnigul, one of Crota's most important generals,

The Dark Below has about a dozen of Crota's "most important generals". Omnigul gets pride of place in the strike but I believe she's the only named female-appearing opponent in TDB. The males in the Hive hierarchy, by contrast, include Oryx, Crota, Sardok, Sardon, Kranox, Telthor, Phogoth, Urzok, Urrox, Gulrot, Alak-Hul, etc. It's not necessarily clear to me that Knights are male and Wizards are female, but it does seem that way. So on the other side of the coin we've got Omnigul, Mormu, and Ir Yut.

That's a ratio of 11:3. So again, women are 30% of the population, right? That's how it works?

Amanda Holiday, the City's chief shipwright, Lakshmi-3, current head of the Future War Cult and of course Savathûn, Oryx's sister a cunning Witch-Queen who split ways long ago and who is still out there.

Let's see, in the Tower we have: Lakshmi, Ikora, Eva Levante, Eris, and Holliday. We had Tess Everis but she's been taken away. That's five. Then we have Cayde, Zavala, Banshee, Hideo, Arach Jalal, Shaxx, Xur, Rahool, Saladin, and the Speaker. That's ten. Again, women are 30% of the population, right?

Even on the Reef, for named characters we've got Petra Venj and then Variks and Master Ives. The Queen isn't actually there, and has only interacted with the player in cutscenes. If we leave her out, then Petra is outnumbered 2:1 even in a matriarchal society! Even if you leave her in, then the presumed "matriarchy" is the only place where named female characters are 50% of those that appear!

Frankly, casual insinuations of sexism is very nearly as bad as sexism itself.

Nope, not even close.

It's a touchy and complex subject and when accusing someone of it you'd better have a weight of evidence on your side. And you don't, in my opinion.

Evidence, I don't know. The weight of numbers is definitely on his side when it comes to representation of the female gender among named Destiny characters.

1. How do you know that any of these characters self-identify as male or female, or that they even classify themselves according to the outdated and bigoted gender binary? On their appearance? Voice? Casual sexism is casual violence and it does nothing to advance us as a society.

2. Stop using sexist "he/she" pronouns when describing persons who could be genderfluid. Until Bungie explicitly specifies their preferred pronouns (i.e. not inferred from other characters in-game since they could be making the same mistake you are) you should use acceptable gender-neutral ones instead.

The world you live in is more than half female. So, yes, I'd say diverging from that is something you'd expect to have a reason for doing. Even if you were just writing a biography, you'd expect the cast of characters to resemble the real world. If it didn't, with respect to gender, I guess I'd wonder-- what is it about the world you inhabit that makes the males interesting and important, and the females less so-- and does that say something about the world you live in, or something about you?

This may not be an answer that you want to hear, but even though women are half the population, they are responsible for far fewer of the events, inventions, and creations that move civilization. I am not saying they don't participate, but pivotal wars, scientific discoveries, influential works of art, etc, are more often than not brought about by men. Women do this too, but in demonstrably fewer numbers. The reason why is complicated.

For those interested, Camille Paglia had ideas on this topic many years ago. cf. Sexual Personae.

The world you live in is more than half female. So, yes, I'd say diverging from that is something you'd expect to have a reason for doing. Even if you were just writing a biography, you'd expect the cast of characters to resemble the real world. If it didn't, with respect to gender, I guess I'd wonder-- what is it about the world you inhabit that makes the males interesting and important, and the females less so-- and does that say something about the world you live in, or something about you?

This may not be an answer that you want to hear, but even though women are half the population, they are responsible for far fewer of the events, inventions, and creations that move civilization. I am not saying they don't participate, but pivotal wars, scientific discoveries, influential works of art, etc, are more often than not brought about by men. Women do this too, but in demonstrably fewer numbers. The reason why is complicated.

Seeing as how stories are generally about interesting things, it stands to reason that you are more likely to pick a story about a man. It says something about the world we live in.