Relax, Lets Union

To place free speech on so high a pedestal and to defend it like losing free speech would be robbing you of some power and then in the same breath say words shouldn't have power, they shouldn't affect you.

More later.

These words hold no power of me, but I've seen their power through history. I certainly am not entertained by, nor find funny, words that have been used to demonize someone like Alan Turing to the point of his chemical castration and death. So I won't force you or anyone to stop using a word, but I'm not going to participate in this community without pointing out that I find it an awful and ugly joke.

As is your right.

If not being able to make jokes like that, without people complaining, makes a forum about Destiny, a PC hell hole, then I'm really f'ing confused what this forum is actually about. I came to talk Destiny, not read bigoted jokes.

Assuming that's what they are. I'm not saying they aren't, nor do I think this forum is a place to freely share jokes that skirt that edge. That said, I know of other forums that would've banned Korny on the spot on the assumption that he is a bigot (and that is an assumption). I'm grateful we're not there yet (I think?).

To address your first point, maybe we're agreeing without realizing it. Words do have power and they matter, but should we give them the power to affect us so? In our culture right now the most powerful thing anyone can say is that they are offended. We reward that response, and therefore teach that it is valuable. (At the same time, constant repetition weakens the claim. Peter and the wolf, call the office!) There is much talk about the so-called limits of free speech but the problem with virtually any power to limit free speech is that it can be (and historically has been) used to shut down debates we don't want to have. Not cool, at least in a free society.

Kermit

P.S. You're in Raleigh. We should definitely have beer sometime. :)

I've talked about this on Facebook quite a bit lately. Ricky Gervais made a great point about this subject; something that I think gets lost in the shuffle too often. On the subject of offensive subject matter in comedy, he said "nothing is off limits... but there is such a thing as 'bad jokes'".

This is where we see the difference between the great comedians and the not-so-great comedians. Lots of comedians will go out and make offensive jokes in an attempt to be "edgy" or whatever. But the best of the best will find a way to construct jokes in such a way that they can use typically offensive language without offending. Louis CK is the master of this, IMO. He uses words that you would never think a middle-aged white American man could possibly get away with, but he writes his jokes in just the right way. He doesn't marginalize people with his jokes. If he brings up sensitive subject matter, he does so without making anyone feel victimized or attacked.

Seinfeld is also very good at this. He doesn't go as far offside as Louis CK, but his show brought in plenty of heated subject matter without being at the expense of any particular person or group.

Exactly. If you make a joke, and someone criticizes it for being offensive, and your only defense is free speech, then maybe your joke wasn't that funny or constructive.

This is where we see the difference between the great comedians and the not-so-great comedians. Lots of comedians will go out and make offensive jokes in an attempt to be "edgy" or whatever. But the best of the best will find a way to construct jokes in such a way that they can use typically offensive language without offending. Louis CK is the master of this, IMO. He uses words that you would never think a middle-aged white American man could possibly get away with, but he writes his jokes in just the right way. He doesn't marginalize people with his jokes. If he brings up sensitive subject matter, he does so without making anyone feel victimized or attacked.

Seinfeld is also very good at this. He doesn't go as far offside as Louis CK, but his show brought in plenty of heated subject matter without being at the expense of any particular person or group.

Seinfeld tends to be much more nuanced and his jokes tend to get at everyday assumptions that we take for granted. I've never heard his jokes go in such a simplistic manner. In fact, some of the funniest comics I've seen go straight for the topics that are going to be offensive. It isn't about avoiding offence, it is about demanding more from the joke-makers.

Right. Everybody says you can't make rape jokes. But Louie CK made a very funny one. See why his is okay:

"I'm told there's no reason to ever rape a woman. No reason? Really? What if I want to have sex with her and she won't let me?"

Why is that funny? Because it doesn't blame or trivialize anybody who has been raped. It points out the absurdity of the rapist's thought process. All is fair game, if you're actually funny and not demeaning.

If you get beyond the ALL CAPS, Film Crit Hulk wrote extensively about being more straight forward satire and cutting out innuendo.

Seinfeld tends to be much more nuanced and his jokes tend to get at everyday assumptions that we take for granted. I've never heard his jokes go in such a simplistic manner. In fact, some of the funniest comics I've seen go straight for the topics that are going to be offensive. It isn't about avoiding offence, it is about demanding more from the joke-makers.

Right. Everybody says you can't make rape jokes. But Louie CK made a very funny one. See why his is okay:

"I'm told there's no reason to ever rape a woman. No reason? Really? What if I want to have sex with her and she won't let me?"

Why is that funny? Because it doesn't blame or trivialize anybody who has been raped. It points out the absurdity of the rapist's thought process. All is fair game, if you're actually funny and not demeaning.

It's a difficult balance, but I think really it's about knowing your audience. If you call your friend a c**t in private and you know he won't be upset that's cool. But if you scream it at a group of elderly women someone's gonna have a bad time.

Heh... that's STILL a word I simply cannot get past the taboo of. Which is weird, because it's one of the few words that is notably more offensive in the US than in other places (we're usually at the forefront of defanging by oversaturation, just because we're crasser than the rest of the planet). It's the only one of Carlin's 7 words that I don't use regularly, and probably never will.

Heard it plenty of times in the office, blew my mind

These words hold no power of me, but I've seen their power through history. I certainly am not entertained by, nor find funny, words that have been used to demonize someone like Alan Turing to the point of his chemical castration and death. So I won't force you or anyone to stop using a word, but I'm not going to participate in this community without pointing out that I find it an awful and ugly joke.

If not being able to make jokes like that, without people complaining, makes a forum about Destiny, a PC hell hole, then I'm really f'ing confused what this forum is actually about. I came to talk Destiny, not read bigoted jokes.

Seinfeld was right.

I don't disagree with Seinfeld (for the record I'm far beyond college-aged). Offense isn't something we should shield ourselves from. However, there is a difference between the punchline of a joke being, "Cody is a homo" where calling him a homo is the insult, versus playing on stereotypes of the LGBTQ community and making a funny comparison. Audience also matters. For instance, in a white community, its probably not okay to say "Cody is a jew/nigger." I don't think I have to explain why. Seinfeld tends to be much more nuanced and his jokes tend to get at everyday assumptions that we take for granted. I've never heard his jokes go in such a simplistic manner. In fact, some of the funniest comics I've seen go straight for the topics that are going to be offensive. It isn't about avoiding offence, it is about demanding more from the joke-makers.

What we laugh about tends to reveal a lot about our root assumptions of the world. Examining why we laugh at something gives us insight into these assumptions. At that point we can decide if it really is something we want to find funny or not. Just a thought.

EDIT: before someone calls me on it. In Shakespeare and other modern English appearances it was often avoided and implied with wordplay. So we're references to male parts. It doesn't make the word obscene, just not usual to say in those situations. The word was still not only common, but proper.

I'm kind of a radical about free speech, and I do sometimes feel we've perverted the nursery rhyme.

No, that was Andrew Dice Clay.

It's a difficult balance, but I think really it's about knowing your audience. If you call your friend a c**t in private and you know he won't be upset that's cool. But if you scream it at a group of elderly women someone's gonna have a bad time.

Heh... that's STILL a word I simply cannot get past the taboo of. Which is weird, because it's one of the few words that is notably more offensive in the US than in other places (we're usually at the forefront of defanging by oversaturation, just because we're crasser than the rest of the planet). It's the only one of Carlin's 7 words that I don't use regularly, and probably never will.

No, it wasn't at her (it was at my brother), but I definitely did not have a good time.

It's a difficult balance, but I think really it's about knowing your audience. If you call your friend a c**t in private and you know he won't be upset that's cool. But if you scream it at a group of elderly women someone's gonna have a bad time.

Heh... that's STILL a word I simply cannot get past the taboo of. Which is weird, because it's one of the few words that is notably more offensive in the US than in other places (we're usually at the forefront of defanging by oversaturation, just because we're crasser than the rest of the planet). It's the only one of Carlin's 7 words that I don't use regularly, and probably never will.