The subreddit is a big fan of the MIDA-Vestian combo, and I can see why: in terms of the variety of ranges, they cover nearly all lengths of engagement.

You know, it's funny - I had NO knowledge of that beforehand, and yet in my one real venture into PvP, that was exactly the weapon combo I went with.

Specifically, I think, for scout rifles. When I use a Scout rifle, in general, I sacrifice a lot in the mid-to-short range game. A fusion rifle leaves my short game exposed to shotguns without a counter, since scouts only really excel at long range; but using a shotty leaves me exposed to fusion rifles, which the scout can't out-aim or kill fast enough against at mid-range. The vestian is a middle ground; it can't necessarily beat either FR's or shotty's at their ideal range, but it can certainly come close to both. The subreddit is a big fan of the MIDA-Vestian combo, and I can see why: in terms of the variety of ranges, they cover nearly all lengths of engagement.

I agree with you Banana. I'm a big fan of hard hitting pulse rifles, but they suck up close. If you don't land those headshots, you are done. Having a shotty as a backup leaves you vulnerable to HC's, Fusion Rifles and fast firing pulses and scouts. You also have to battle a shotty with a shotty if you are getting rushed. This means your shottie needs to out range the enemies and you need to get your timing right. Too early or too late and you are done. Also I'm a titan so the shotty to melee attack doesn't work either. I'm investigating using the sidearm, since I mostly use my special weapon as a defense for up close encounters. I like that I can begin firing before my target gets too close and that I always spawn with ammo.

And for 'close encounters' how do you not get rocked with a shotgun and / or fast charging FRs? And could you not also simultaneously rock your opponent using either?

I don't get rocked when they miss. Thing is, to make them miss, I usually have to move in a way aiming with low RoF guns is pretty damn hard. Any frame I spend lining up a shot is a frame I'm being predictable. That's when forgiving guns favor me, because I can afford to be unpredictable.

Also, when lag hits hard, forgiving guns are better for almost the exact same reason.

EDIT: I don't use Vestian in the Crucible, mind you, but I do use high-RoF shotguns and Bad Juju.

Specifically, I think, for scout rifles. When I use a Scout rifle, in general, I sacrifice a lot in the mid-to-short range game. A fusion rifle leaves my short game exposed to shotguns without a counter, since scouts only really excel at long range; but using a shotty leaves me exposed to fusion rifles, which the scout can't out-aim or kill fast enough against at mid-range. The vestian is a middle ground; it can't necessarily beat either FR's or shotty's at their ideal range, but it can certainly come close to both. The subreddit is a big fan of the MIDA-Vestian combo, and I can see why: in terms of the variety of ranges, they cover nearly all lengths of engagement.

I used to use Fusion Rifles almost exclusively (until the ammo changes), and I find that the Dynasty fares better at close encounters...

And for 'close encounters' how do you not get rocked with a shotgun and / or fast charging FRs? And could you not also simultaneously rock your opponent using either?

I'm genuinely curious. If you could explain or demonstrate how to properly use a sidearm, I'd be very interested.

I just don't see any situation where a sidearm would be better than having another special. All the damage at once beats all the damage over time. Unless you miss.

Answered your own question. And your odds of missing increase exponentially when you add distance, a moving target, and getting shot into the mix. A dynasty if far more forgiving with all three of those factors right there. If you remember, I used to use Fusion Rifles almost exclusively (until the ammo changes), and I find that the Dynasty fares better at close encounters... But I'm able to pull of rapid trigger pulls while maintaining a bead on my target, which might be tough for twitch-based folks who prefer holding the trigger down and delivering all of the damage in one shot. It all comes down to playstyle.

Ran out of ammo in your clip? Switch to Vestian to keep firing without missing a single beat. It's an emergency gun, not something you use all the time like shotguns/snipers.

Kind of like secondaries in modern shooters like CoD.

This. Also, I see it as an emergency short-range primary. Say you're using a scout rifle (or No Land Beyond), and an enemy pushes in at closer range, but still too far for Shotgun. Switching to the Dynasty gives you a better chance to fight than your primary or a shotgun would.

Wouldn't a fusion rifle give you an even better chance? I feel like I'm the only one in the world who actually gets tons of kills with them… I've been on the receiving on of Vestian Dynasty in PvP a few times, and it never kills me before my Fusion Rifle hits and kills them with the burst damage.

I just don't see any situation where a sidearm would be better than having another special. All the damage at once beats all the damage over time. Unless you miss.

Ran out of ammo in your clip? Switch to Vestian to keep firing without missing a single beat. It's an emergency gun, not something you use all the time like shotguns/snipers.

Kind of like secondaries in modern shooters like CoD.

This. Also, I see it as an emergency short-range primary. Say you're using a scout rifle (or No Land Beyond), and an enemy pushes in at closer range, but still too far for Shotgun. Switching to the Dynasty gives you a better chance to fight than your primary or a shotgun would.

If I were to change anything about it, I'd decrease the damage drop-off by a pinch, and maybe give it a slightly larger mag, but other than that, I've had a lot of fun using it in PvE and PvP.

Maybe the PS4 crew can make a run for the Lighthouse using only Sidearms...

Ran out of ammo in your clip? Switch to Vestian to keep firing without missing a single beat. It's an emergency gun, not something you use all the time like shotguns/snipers.

Kind of like secondaries in modern shooters like CoD.

In that case just make them automatic with a large clip and they would be fine.

I see them best as a compliment to fusion rifles, where those are a one hit kill, a sidearm would take several hits but could converge on a very similar time to kill. Kind of like the HC vs. AR setup.

My original post in this sub-thread was operating under Cody's assumed distinction of special weapons, and engaging in an exercise using that premise. Re-read with that in mind.

Ran out of ammo in your clip? Switch to Vestian to keep firing without missing a single beat. It's an emergency gun, not something you use all the time like shotguns/snipers.

Kind of like secondaries in modern shooters like CoD.

That's I use it.

I don't think I've ever actually equipped it in Crucible, but I use my sidearm often for PvE and find it very satisfying.

Kind of like secondaries in modern shooters like CoD.

Some people will want to avoid close range at any cost and snipe. Some will want to get very close and shotgun. Some will decide to excel at timing and make great use of fusion rifles. I enjoy the always stocked, quick to kill, easy to use even in a panic nature of Sidearms. :)

If I can consistently kill a shotgun user with a sidearm because I have a range advantage then what does the lack of a one hit kill matter?

It matters because any primary can do that as well. Range isn't the distinction here (if it were, I might point out that sniper rifles and even fusion rifles can beat a shotgun on range). It's the ability to do a large amount of damage instantly that sets specials aside (other than the sidearms).

Edit: I just thought of a way that you could buff sidearms without tweaking anything weird. Give them infinite clips / no reload. The lack of a one shot kill is then made up for by the long and continuous damage output without any downtime for reloads.

I want this so bad.

Or just adding new effects without touching its base stats.
I agree that sidearms should at least have the gain accuracy when readying the weapon perk, built in.

Regen health on hit would be a bit op, as would a stagger effect.
But bonus accuracy for a weapon that is close range, quick firing? Yes.

People would be running TLW & sidearms all day though :/

When I worked on Call of Duty: Big Red One, we were balancing PvP and had a lot of trouble with the BAR. The weapon designer insisted (and rightly so, I think), that all of the weapon stats be based on reality, and the BAR was simply one of the best weapons in the allied arsenal. The reason that we didn't just give one to every soldier was that they were expensive and took a while to make, whereas the standard M1 was relatively cheap and easy to mass produce. But in a video game where you pick your weapon, cost like that wasn't a system that we wanted to build into the game. So we were stuck with a gun that was more accurate and did more damage than every other gun we had, by a pretty noticeable margin.

To fix the gun, we had to think outside the box. Instead of modifying the weapon's stats, we modified the player's stats while they were using that weapon. We slowed down their turning speed, slowed down ADS, and made them walk more slowly. Suddenly the weapon was fair.

In a similar way, we were able to increase the effectiveness of underpowered weapons by making the player move much more quickly while using those guns.

So for the sidearms, they could be made more effective by giving the player a speed boost while equipped, or a health boost on hit, or maybe giving the bullets a disorient effect on hit or something. There are lots of ways to buff the weapon for PvP without strictly affecting the damage output or unbalancing PvE. To say they haven't got the feel quite right yet is fair, but to say it can't be done... I disagree.

Edit: I just thought of a way that you could buff sidearms without tweaking anything weird. Give them infinite clips / no reload. The lack of a one shot kill is then made up for by the long and continuous damage output without any downtime for reloads.