Remember, most of Dickens was originally released as episodic content.

Yeah, and Great Expectations (an example of his serially released work) is an unmitigated train-wreck and objectively the worst book ever.

Goddamn I hate that book. Nothing about it is good.

I do agree with you that the episodic nature of the gameplay creates an additional challenge to the story-telling, and maybe that's why it's not at the forefront of the studio's priorities.

When I actually suggested, back before ODST, that I would love Bungie to pursue an episodic model (it was not yet clear at that time, I think, how thoroughly Valve had failed with their experiment with it) it was because of the advantages that model has for storytelling. You can't honestly look, just to name very recent examples, at Breaking Bad, Game of Thrones, Better Call Saul, Mad Men, and quite a few others, and say that an episodic format is inherently detrimental to storytelling. Quite the opposite!

He didn't say that the format is detrimental to storytelling - he said that it creates an additional challenge. And it does. (And challenges translate to extra time, and extra money, which can lead to de-prioritization.)

Doesn't mean it hasn't been made to work, and work really well, lots and lots and lots and lots of times. Remember, most of Dickens was originally released as episodic content.

You implied that this idea of removing- or omitting- story content from the game and building it up in external media is "brilliant".

I think you may have misinterpreted his post.

I don't think he was saying that omitting the content from the game and delivering it another way was brilliant - just that that was new. I think the use of the word 'brilliant' was to describe the content of the Grimoire cards, which he likes a lot.

I haven't discussed this particular post with him, so I could be completely wrong - but I HAVE discussed the Grimoire with him, and I know he loves the writing.

Neither of these are new concepts. Mass Effect has the Codex- An extensive library of knowledge that is updated and added to as the player discovers new things, accessible at any time by pausing the game. And games have been doing piecemeal audio logs for years- ODST's "Sadie's Story" and the Datapads in Reach, for example.

Both of which can be accessed in the game, while I'm playing, while I'm thinking "oh, hey, I WOULD like to know more about X."

When I leave the console and go to the computer, I'm dealing with a different set of tasks. I see the Grimoire and say "oh, I'll look at that later." I STILL have unread cards, and I find the long ones extremely frustrating to try and read in the interface Bungie has set up, which is way too in love with the idea of being darling little cards to make itself useful.

This. I still have quite a few unread cards because I just don't think about it when I'm doing things on the computer. And yes, Bungie's Grimoire interface needs to change. Long cards are awful to read.

I would love to be able to access them either in the Tower, or in Orbit, or wherever. I would say in the Start Menu screens, but I'm not sure that works as well, since you can't actually pause the game.

Myth had flavor text back in '97, and I'm sure it wasn't the first game to have it. ODST had audio fragments. This isn't new territory.

My point is the idea of using an ancillary device (computer, phone, tablet) as part of the story-telling experience: that's what we're not ready for, but I suspect will be in the future.

I considered that that was the point, but dismissed that notion because it seemed too absurd to be correct.

Now that you've confirmed in this post that that idea (using an ancillary device (computer, phone, tablet) as part of the story-telling experience) was the point, I'll try to respond again.

You implied that this idea of removing- or omitting- story content from the game and building it up in external media is "brilliant".

Why?

What possible benefit does that have to the consumer/audience, over having all that media available in one convenient, accessible package? You must have some argument to make here, because you consider it to be "brilliant". I'd genuinely like to hear it from you.

I can think of one example, related specifically to the way Destiny does it: When you receive a Grimiore card, a slim back bar appears at the bottom of the screen. The text in this bar informs the user that to view the Grimiore card's contents, they can do so at Bungie.net. Theoretically, Bungie could be using this to advertise their website, giving the player an incentive to visit and maybe discover the other functionality it offers. Personally, I find this to be sort of tacky, and more than a little bit of a disservice to the writer of the cards. Like you said, the content is good. It feels akin to holding a multiplayer map back, only to be given to those who pre-order.

I like that you start discussing the changing model of play during our time hiding from Quodron in PoE. That room is a great example of "Wait, is this FUN?" ... After a few attempts, and a serious nerf/rethink of certain design elements, it is.

BTW, your description should include an "S" in SteelGaribaldi. :)

Oops! Fixed!

and Thanks!

Neither of these are new concepts. Mass Effect has the Codex- An extensive library of knowledge that is updated and added to as the player discovers new things, accessible at any time by pausing the game. And games have been doing piecemeal audio logs for years- ODST's "Sadie's Story" and the Datapads in Reach, for example.

Both of which can be accessed in the game, while I'm playing, while I'm thinking "oh, hey, I WOULD like to know more about X."

When I leave the console and go to the computer, I'm dealing with a different set of tasks. I see the Grimoire and say "oh, I'll look at that later." I STILL have unread cards, and I find the long ones extremely frustrating to try and read in the interface Bungie has set up, which is way too in love with the idea of being darling little cards to make itself useful.

Thanks Narcogen for that level-headed and thorough analysis of narrative within Bungie's games.

I'm of the opinion that at its core, the problem is that the writing just got bad.

It went from superb ('thon, Myth) to good (Halo), to where we are now.

I fear may be onto something there... and it's something I'm working on for another video.

[snip]

Not everyone cares for reading terminals, and I suspect that Bungie as a studio started feeling the pressure of "dumbing down" the story-telling (Halo) so that younger, and / or more impatient players could get story content without too much investment.

Sure, I get that, but I suppose now they've just decided that the younger, impatient players don't need or want the story at all, and that everybody else can go read a website?

With Destiny, however, it just feels like the story-telling has taken a back seat to a lot of other components of the game.

I do agree with you that the episodic nature of the gameplay creates an additional challenge to the story-telling, and maybe that's why it's not at the forefront of the studio's priorities.

When I actually suggested, back before ODST, that I would love Bungie to pursue an episodic model (it was not yet clear at that time, I think, how thoroughly Valve had failed with their experiment with it) it was because of the advantages that model has for storytelling. You can't honestly look, just to name very recent examples, at Breaking Bad, Game of Thrones, Better Call Saul, Mad Men, and quite a few others, and say that an episodic format is inherently detrimental to storytelling. Quite the opposite! I think the problem is that Bungie just really hasn't engaged on that level, in part because of the MMO design elements, and perhaps in part just as a knee-jerk reaction to the multimedia behemoth that Halo became, and perhaps in part because of the departure of key individuals.

Myth had flavor text back in '97, and I'm sure it wasn't the first game to have it. ODST had audio fragments. This isn't new territory.

My point is the idea of using an ancillary device (computer, phone, tablet) as part of the story-telling experience: that's what we're not ready for, but I suspect will be in the future.

edit -- what Funk said!

I actually don't mind some material being delivered that way.

The problem is how dependent the game is on that material for it's context.

I was never a particular fan of the Halo novelizations. I thought they weren't as good at being books as Halo was at being a game, and I felt more or less satisfied by the narrative and characterization delivered by the games. The novels introduced conflicting themes and details that I found unsatisfying, extraneous, and unnecessary.

As a primary source for narrative and characterization, Destiny delivers very, very little. Where it does deliver in spades is setting.

But there's just too little else there, and I'm not convinced that this is an issue about the audience being "ready" to consume media through other sources-- the success of otherwise mediocre spinoff media (not just for Halo but many popular franchises) speaks directly to that. The question is whether or not it's advisable to supplant the primary source material with the external stuff. I'm not sold on it, and I'm not sure the problem is me.

My point is the idea of using an ancillary device (computer, phone, tablet) as part of the story-telling experience: that's what we're not ready for, but I suspect will be in the future.

edit -- what Funk said!

The strongest writing in Destiny for me lies in the Grimoire cards -- but I feel they are a (brilliant) component that the gaming community isn't quite ready for yet. I think that will change in about 5-10 years, and people will look back on Destiny as being forward-thinking in that regard, sort of the way Apple lost tens of millions of dollars introducing the Apple Newton in the 90s, because they were satisfying a need consumers didn't know they had yet.

So here's the thing-

The Grimiore Cards basically fall into two categories- Ones that add detail to the world from an objective, basic informational standpoint (eg. Exotic Weapons, Faction Leaders), or ones that are snippets of conversations or character diaries (eg. Alpha Lupi, Ghost Fragments).

Neither of these are new concepts. Mass Effect has the Codex- An extensive library of knowledge that is updated and added to as the player discovers new things, accessible at any time by pausing the game. And games have been doing piecemeal audio logs for years- ODST's "Sadie's Story" and the Datapads in Reach, for example.

So when I read what you've written above- that people complain about the grimiore cards because they're this "new" concept that they aren't quite ready for yet- it comes off as you trying to brush off Bungie's blunders by making excuses.

I'm not sure if you do this stuff on purpose or not. It comes off like you trying to brush off Bungie compliments by making excuses. Nico wasn't talking about little side stories and extra info in games, Doom 3 had those, even, and that story was dumb as hell. Of course Nico wasn't talking about that. He was talking about the outside game access to them.

It's like if you said "The Newton wasn't new. Apple had been making computers for years. There was the Apple 1, then the Apple ][, and so on." You missed the point, and it seems deliberate, because you miss the point in a consistent way, every time. The way insulting to Bungie.

The strongest writing in Destiny for me lies in the Grimoire cards -- but I feel they are a (brilliant) component that the gaming community isn't quite ready for yet. I think that will change in about 5-10 years, and people will look back on Destiny as being forward-thinking in that regard, sort of the way Apple lost tens of millions of dollars introducing the Apple Newton in the 90s, because they were satisfying a need consumers didn't know they had yet.

So here's the thing-

The Grimiore Cards basically fall into two categories- Ones that add detail to the world from an objective, basic informational standpoint (eg. Exotic Weapons, Faction Leaders), or ones that are snippets of conversations or character diaries (eg. Alpha Lupi, Ghost Fragments).

Neither of these are new concepts. Mass Effect has the Codex- An extensive library of knowledge that is updated and added to as the player discovers new things, accessible at any time by pausing the game. And games have been doing piecemeal audio logs for years- ODST's "Sadie's Story" and the Datapads in Reach, for example.

So when I read what you've written above- that people complain about the grimiore cards because they're this "new" concept that they aren't quite ready for yet- it comes off as you trying to brush off Bungie's blunders by making excuses.

I'm of the opinion that at its core, the problem is that the writing just got bad.

It went from superb ('thon, Myth) to good (Halo), to where we are now.

Which is weird because historically Bungie knows good writing and good acting. I remember being disappointed in Halo 2 that the Elites spoke English, I would have preferred the exotic unknown of the backwards gibberish with subtitles, and then I heard Keith David and I was like "oh, ok."

Compare Durandal as a character -- funny, diabolical, manipulative, confident, to the Ghost who by contrast feels sophomorically written, rushed and hurried - I think it was around level 18 that I couldn't stand it anymore and I turned the sound off -- and haven't turned it back on since then. I do keep subtitles on, and from those, I can't say I'll be turning the sound back on anytime soon.

The strongest writing in Destiny for me lies in the Grimoire cards -- but I feel they are a (brilliant) component that the gaming community isn't quite ready for yet. I think that will change in about 5-10 years, and people will look back on Destiny as being forward-thinking in that regard, sort of the way Apple lost tens of millions of dollars introducing the Apple Newton in the 90s, because they were satisfying a need consumers didn't know they had yet.

Back to why I think Marathon's writing is in a different league from Destiny's: a book (Marathon), because of the dialectic nature of the way the information is processed, will generally "hit harder" than a movie (or a cut scene), where a lot of the interpretation is gone, and it's more of a didactic experience, where the player is experiencing the director's vision of that writing. So maybe Marathon got so deep into my DNA that no other title could surpass it (and no other title has.)

Consider for example this (from Marathon 2):

Tycho's ship has been destroyed. The crater where it annihilated itself on Lh'owon's inner moon is still glowing. There were no survivors. With a focused message laser I burned his epitaph into the surface near the crash site, in letters three hundred meters high: "Fatum Iustum Stultorum."

That is good writing. It's grandiose. It's like reading Herodotus describing Xerxes ordering the river Hellespont to be whipped by his soldiers because a storm demolished his bridge.

It's also not something I would want to see in a cut scene, because I don't think there are many directors who could do it justice.

Not everyone cares for reading terminals, and I suspect that Bungie as a studio started feeling the pressure of "dumbing down" the story-telling (Halo) so that younger, and / or more impatient players could get story content without too much investment.

With Destiny, however, it just feels like the story-telling has taken a back seat to a lot of other components of the game.

I do agree with you that the episodic nature of the gameplay creates an additional challenge to the story-telling, and maybe that's why it's not at the forefront of the studio's priorities.

BTW, your description should include an "S" in SteelGaribaldi. :)