See how this is a problem?

Yes. Except there is much much more directly spoken in the game, in the missions than he is giving Destiny credit for. And I believe I can still make most of my arguments only using in game sources as I showed in my other reply to you on this issue. And if there's something I can't source from in game I will admit it. In my view, Avateur is ignoring a lot of stuff that is said in game in his argument that there is no story.

I think part of the problem here is a bit of a semantic one. Here's the way the discussion reads to me: you are saying "Destiny has a story. This happens, then this, then this, etc".

If I understand correctly, Avateur is making the argument (and I mostly agree) that "stuff happening" does not make a story. In the classic sense, a story needs driving force, goals, motivations, conflicts. It needs an arch with a beginning, middle, and end.

I feel that Destiny manages to scratch the surface on enough of these points to say "yes, Destiny has a story". But just barely. It's about on the level as my day today: I got up, went a few places, stuff happened. Not much of a story lol

I think what's really happened is Destiny's story really is meant to play out over ten years and the lack of immediate payoff is intentional, though the poor storytelling in the first chapter (the base game) was not.

Not an excuse. TV shows that run multiple years are enjoyable from the very first episode. You've got to get it right immediately.

1. You are wrongly diminishing and dismissing what story is in game. There's not much, not enough, but there are the bones of a good story. Even in the base game a set of plot points does progress logically forward where finding the Hive in the Cosmodrome leads to attacking them on the moon which leads you to be noticed by the Exo Stranger which leads to the Awoken which leads to Mars which leads to the Black Garden and The Darkness harming The Traveler. Is it well fleshed out? Are there a ton of great cutscenes or great mission dialogue? No. But I absolutely see the story as being there and as being more than kill things because we were told to.

Yes, it works logically. But stories are meant to engage you EMOTIONALLY. A logical, airtight plot is stupid if you don't care about it or the characters. Destiny doesn't give you any way to emotionally engage, since motivations are unknown, and characters are thin and downright absent.

2. You are treating Destiny's story as something that can only happen within the game. You're going so far as to talk about erasing the Grimoire from everyone's minds.

Grimoire is backstory. We are talking about the main story here. The grimoire is not a story, nor is it a narrative.

We all agree that Destiny's storytelling was not up to par. But to say there is no story is never going to sit right with me because I can throw out the Grimoire and still make almost all the links and connections I argue for. And throwing out the Grimoire doesn't sit right with me because to me it is part of Destiny's story.

It is Destiny's BACKSTORY. What don't you get about that?

See how this is a problem?

Yes. Except there is much much more directly spoken in the game, in the missions than he is giving Destiny credit for. And I believe I can still make most of my arguments only using in game sources as I showed in my other reply to you on this issue. And if there's something I can't source from in game I will admit it. In my view, Avateur is ignoring a lot of stuff that is said in game in his argument that there is no story.

Your disregard for the story bit that have happened is just getting plain silly now.

- The Traveler had not been healing and might have even been dying thank to the Hive. We stopped their attacks.
- Eris and the five that went with her killed Crota (in our plane of existance) and put a decades long stop to his war against us.
- The Queen of the Awoken is in some sort of tense standoff with The Nine who actively worked to push Skolas to attack The Reef. We helped her with the House of Wolves because we owed her for helping us kill The Darkness in the Black Garden which had somehow prevented The Traveler for healing in the centuries since the end of the collapse.

a) This isn't "plot" or "narrative". It is "backstory" and "lore" (with the exception of the Hive draining the traveler's light). This is an important distinction. Lore is great for world building, but it has very little to do with the direct story.

But when it's very recent history, like the Awoken stopping the million strong House of Wolves from reenforcing the other houses at Twilight Gap, it become more relevant and not as easily dismissed. Especially since those facts are directly spoken of in game. Ultimately though, I am taking more of a "Destiny is not a game but a universe" approach...

b) None of this takes place in the game, or is communicated through the game. If all you do is play through Destiny, you won't know any of it. (again, excluding the bit about the hive draining the traveler).

Not true. Some of is spoken of directly. Some of it is gleaned through in game speech not directly related. And a tiny bit does have to be speculated, but speculated based directly on in game observations and knowledge:

- The Exo Stranger says in voiced dialogue in a cutscene that The Traveler will not begin to heal until we deal with the heart of the Black Garden. The time it hasn't been healing (decades from The Hive centuries from The Black Garden) I get from two sources: For decades, Eris isn't centuries old and there is some Tower chatter about the war on the moon. For centuries, when you first arrive at the Tower your Ghost tells you that The City took centuries to build an we know The Traveler would have been overhead all that time.
- In the opening The Dark Below cutscene Eris talks of six going down to face Crota and only herself surviving. That they killed Crota is the only good explanation for why he is being summoned back. I think there's other in game content (perhaps even voiced) to support them killing Crota but I'd have to listen to the mission dialogue (or Eris' ramblings!) again to get you an exact quote. But I do think I could. 99% sure. (I think Eris mentions that they killed Crota but the Hive caught his soul or something to that effect)
- Petra says Skolas was given to The Nine and expresses shock that he escaped them. I'd have to really look for in game support for her gifting Skolas to them in reparation for some offense, though. Perhaps in Reef chatter but I don't have a direct quote off in mind and am not sure I could find one. Maybe, but not at all sure.

I think The Dark Below basically rolled out as is with maybe the patrol quests added in as a desperate measure to breath some more story into the game and that the House of Wolves did a much better job with story and set pieces (all the missions are just better designed and implemented, know what I mean?) but even still there wasn't a lot of time or budget to add in cutscenes and more than the planned Petra / Variks back and forth.

I have two big problems with what you've been arguing. (Not problems with you, problems with the arguments you are making):

1. You are wrongly diminishing and dismissing what story is in game. There's not much, not enough, but there are the bones of a good story. Even in the base game a set of plot points does progress logically forward where finding the Hive in the Cosmodrome leads to attacking them on the moon which leads you to be noticed by the Exo Stranger which leads to the Awoken which leads to Mars which leads to the Black Garden and The Darkness harming The Traveler. Is it well fleshed out? Are there a ton of great cutscenes or great mission dialogue? No. But I absolutely see the story as being there and as being more than kill things because we were told to.

2. You are treating Destiny's story as something that can only happen within the game. You're going so far as to talk about erasing the Grimoire from everyone's minds. When I talk to people seriously about Halo's story or Mass Effect's story or any game's story I would never limit myself to just the stuff that happened in game. Especially when the company that made the game at the same time made a fantastic resource that shipped with the game and was there to fill in the gaps for those that wanted to know more. Then, when anyone points out that the game actually does speak to the same plot points, just not in as much (or enough) detail, you say that all that happened in Destiny is people told us to do stuff for no reason.

We all agree that Destiny's storytelling was not up to par. But to say there is no story is never going to sit right with me because I can throw out the Grimoire and still make almost all the links and connections I argue for. And throwing out the Grimoire doesn't sit right with me because to me it is part of Destiny's story. Right now it is having to do perhaps double duty filling in for the game's initial poor storytellling and building the universe but I think that won't always be the case and that it's far more reasonable to speak of the game and Grimoire together than it is to separate them. If the Grimoire was merely stories of Destiny past that did not directly link to the present I'd say you have a point. But events in the Grimoire are referenced all the time and the Grimoire elaborates about events in game all the time. And because of that I strongly disagree that they should ever be separated.

(And like you, I intend no offense or insult. Just honest opinion of what I think happened and... uh... why I think you're wrong)

I think it's funny that I'm dead wrong, but you conclude on the fact that this stuff needs to happen in game. Which is Cody's point and mine. Nothing goes down in-game. If I could wipe the Grimoire from existence and from your memory and everyone else's, this entire conversation isn't even happening right now. Why? Because Destiny has no story or plot. Sorry dude. Bungie.net does, though!

You know your argument is in trouble if you have to start fictitiously wiping content from existence to prove your point. Come back when you're ready to discuss things as they actually are.

Not when the content in contention is NOT IN THE GAME. You continue to defend Destiny's plot using information that is only available through the Grimoires. Do you not see how this is a faulty argument? A gamer who sits down and plays Destiny from start to finish is not presented any of that information. That is bad storytelling.

It's the same thing people have been saying for years about the Star Wars prequels ("if you read the books, the movies actually make sense"). Halo 4 fell in to the same trap. Now Destiny has done it as well, but to a further degree.

So when Avateur suggests forgetting about the Grimoire cards, he is making a good point. They are not part of Destiny the game. They are auxiliary content. There is no guarantee that a player will ever see them. Yet for Destiny's plot to have any weight, the player MUST be aware of that information.

See how this is a problem?

I think it's funny that I'm dead wrong, but you conclude on the fact that this stuff needs to happen in game. Which is Cody's point and mine. Nothing goes down in-game. If I could wipe the Grimoire from existence and from your memory and everyone else's, this entire conversation isn't even happening right now. Why? Because Destiny has no story or plot. Sorry dude. Bungie.net does, though!

You know your argument is in trouble if you have to start fictitiously wiping content from existence to prove your point. Come back when you're ready to discuss things as they actually are.

I just wish they would stop telling us that they are going to do better with storytelling unless they are genuinely committed to making real, substantial, meaningful improvements. At this point I would almost rather hear them say "storytelling really isn't our focus with this game".

I think the latter is probably true is that their focus leading up to launch (and maybe through year one?) was probably not storytelling, but building a foundation. I really hope that going forward their focus returns to storytelling. Destiny has a lot of potential.

I certainly feel that way (about Destiny's story potential). The setting and lore is fantastic. i think that's why people get so worked up about this subject; we can see how much potential for amazing stories this game has :)

Your disregard for the story bit that have happened is just getting plain silly now.

- The Traveler had not been healing and might have even been dying thank to the Hive. We stopped their attacks.
- Eris and the five that went with her killed Crota (in our plane of existance) and put a decades long stop to his war against us.
- The Queen of the Awoken is in some sort of tense standoff with The Nine who actively worked to push Skolas to attack The Reef. We helped her with the House of Wolves because we owed her for helping us kill The Darkness in the Black Garden which had somehow prevented The Traveler for healing in the centuries since the end of the collapse.

a) This isn't "plot" or "narrative". It is "backstory" and "lore" (with the exception of the Hive draining the traveler's light). This is an important distinction. Lore is great for world building, but it has very little to do with the direct story.

b) None of this takes place in the game, or is communicated through the game. If all you do is play through Destiny, you won't know any of it. (again, excluding the bit about the hive draining the traveler).

You and Cody have such a lack of imagination and such a poor grasp of the longer term connections and storytelling that Destiny is doing. You ignore and reduce and oversimplify actions and plot thread all so you can make your incorrect claims that nothing we did had any meaning. I think what the Exo Stranger said is the real truth of Destiny: "All endings are beginnings." Meaning that it's all connected and important, even if Bungie got off on the wrong foot.

I'm only going to reply to this, and it's tough because it's through text. I think I could express it better over Xbox Live so you could hear my tone and such, because I'm not trying to personally attack or insult you with this next bit. I don't know if you've ever learned to write (like actually taken writing courses, or learned about plot, structure, narrative, scripting, etc.), but to me it seems like you haven't.

Cody and I don't lack imagination. There actually is a process to writing and storytelling, and writers who fully understand these concepts can fully disregard them to make even more interesting and unique stories if done properly. As part of the writing process, there is an actual and true editing process as well when it comes to story and plot. Destiny the game does not appear to use any of it or show an understanding of any of it. And Cody and I are being pretty critical about it from that standpoint.

Now, the Grimoire on the other hand is freaking unbelievable. There's a reason for that. They actually hired people who genuinely know and understand how to write. Some have been doing it for years and years, some have been directly trained, etc. There's a reason why the Grimoire is absolutely fantastic whereas Destiny's "story" itself just isn't there.

So, don't mistake Cody and my own intent. We absolutely are dying for Destiny's story to exist and get better and rock. There's a ton of bad and wrong things about it, and we're calling it out, and we're not pulling punches. Please don't think of it as a lack of imagination or foresight. And please don't take any of this post personally. I have no idea what training or education or anything else you do or don't have on this topic; I'm just stating my own observation, and I mean absolutely no ill will. None. I'm really enjoying the conversations in this thread, and I think we all want Destiny's story to rock out.

So yes, I do feel Bungie has oversold the narrative aspects of both expansions, to a degree.

Fair enough. I will say this: while I expected SOME improvements from TDB and HoW, I was never really expecting major improvements. 3-5 story missions isn't a huge amount of time to try and tell an epic story. I DO expect a significantly better story from TTK because they have had a lot of time to work on it.

I just wish they would stop telling us that they are going to do better with storytelling unless they are genuinely committed to making real, substantial, meaningful improvements. At this point I would almost rather hear them say "storytelling really isn't our focus with this game".

I think the latter is probably true is that their focus leading up to launch (and maybe through year one?) was probably not storytelling, but building a foundation. I really hope that going forward their focus returns to storytelling. Destiny has a lot of potential.

This is more of a clarity question as I can't find anything about it: Did Bungie actually say they were working to improve story telling with The Dark Below and The House of Wolves? I know they said they recognized that the story wasn't as good as we were expecting, but I don't remember them ever promising improvements until the recent interviews about The Taken King. But this could be because of my faulty memory as well.

I certainly could be mistaken... I read so many Destiny articles and interviews that they begin to blur together. But I do remember consistent talking points in the lead up to both expansions.

Before TDB, there were mentions of "we're looking at new interesting ways to tell stories" from Deej and others in interviews (both video and print)... The Thorn bounty was brought up as an example of a particular direction they were looking in. I can only assume that the "bring me the eyes" side quest is what they were referring to. I really enjoyed parts of that quest, but I wouldn't say it was any kind of improvement in storytelling. Just the quests themselves were a bit more interesting. There was also some talk about having a clear villain to go up against, and how the story missions would take you through the buildup towards a final confrontation. This sort of happened, but again I would say the simple existence of a plot does not equate to good storytelling.

Before House of Wolves, I feel like Bungie was less inclined to make any direct claims of improvement. But I do believe the narrative content was still oversold, to a degree.

Here's a clip from an interview with NZGamer:

NZ: Players and press alike have praised Destiny for the quality of the gameplay, and the density of the lore, yet criticize the storytelling methods used in both the main campaign and that of the first DLC pack, The Dark Below. What will the House of Wolves DLC be doing storytelling-wise to enthrall those who have stuck with Destiny, but more importantly, entice new and lapsed players who crave the style of the science fiction narrative gamers came to expect from Bungie based on your previous works?

Deej: We’re introducing players to new characters who will send them back into the wild on quests of justice and revenge. An unexpected alliance with the Awoken gives us a chance to see the world of Destiny from a different perspective. The agents of The Reef have new and exciting reasons for you to fight your enemies.

See what I mean? It's not wildly off base, but playing the HoW story missions, do we ever really feel the effects of an alliance with the Awoken (aside from the voices telling us where to go?). Are the reasons for fighting with the Fallen actually any different than before? Does any of it matter to us when we're in the middle of the action?
This was an opportunity to actually develop our relationship with the Queen and the Awoken in a meaningful way. If we'd been made to feel the gravity and tragedy of the Wolves' betrayal... if we had felt true pathos for the queen and the awoken, a genuine desire to help them... then I would say things were on the right track. But instead, it is all handled so casually. Arriving at the reef for the first time feels like the opening of a new mall, not the beginning of an important new alliance.

So yes, I do feel Bungie has oversold the narrative aspects of both expansions, to a degree.