I totally get what you're saying, and I don't think you're wrong. It's an unfortunate reality with AAA games on the whole right now, not just Destiny, that the making-money aspect of creating these games sometimes intrudes on the end users' fun.

I don't think anyone objects to the fact that these companies ARE making money. Obviously, we as the gamers need that to happen. It's just that sometimes the carrot-and-stick mechanisms are a little too obvious, and people find it insulting to be manipulated. I think it's not even the fact that we are being influenced that's irritating, it's how blatant it (sometimes) is. Hopefully as time goes on companies will get better at not being so obvious about it. For now, though, I guess we're at the Red Bull stage of games' evolution. :\

Why can't we go back to the good ol' days where if the Jester doesn't entertain us he loses his head? Oh wait, then no one would make games.

I don't think anyone objects to the fact that these companies ARE making money. Obviously, we as the gamers need that to happen. It's just that sometimes the carrot-and-stick mechanisms are a little too obvious, and people find it insulting to be manipulated. I think it's not even the fact that we are being influenced that's irritating, it's how blatant it (sometimes) is. Hopefully as time goes on companies will get better at not being so obvious about it. For now, though, I guess we're at the Red Bull stage of games' evolution. :\

To me, what sets it distinctly apart is that I feel like a wallet instead of a fan. Like amid the gameplay there is cold, hard psychology designed specifically to keep me paying and playing.

Like a slot machine.

The interesting part is at this point in Destiny's life you would have only paid $10 - $20 more than you did with Halo 3 or Reach but have gotten similar amounts of new multiplayer content, infinitely more single player content (since no Halo ever got new single player content) and vastly more free post launch support, tweaks, bug fixes, balance updates, and full blow features than any Halo received. (See my post to Avateur for details)

That doesn't discount what you feel in the least, of course. Destiny did launch with an inferior in-game story, and has required the replaying of content if you want to remain at the top of the Light Level and weapon damage curves. I just think from an actual pricing perspective Destiny, so far, hasn't demanded more from your wallet than other "recent" Bungie games did.

I absolutely agree that I've gotten my money's worth from Destiny, so my comment was not meant to minimize the cost-to-value relationship. You do bring up a good point regarding free post-launch support...no Halo had such a thing (at least not to that extent).

I played for a ton of time, but I'm not sure that I should have, nor if I really wanted to. I'm actually pretty sure I wouldn't do it again. I have had no such experience with any other game I have owned, so I'm not exactly sure what to make of it. That's more of what I was going for.....

Like a slot machine.

The interesting part is at this point in Destiny's life you would have only paid $10 - $20 more than you did with Halo 3 or Reach but have gotten similar amounts of new multiplayer content, infinitely more single player content (since no Halo ever got new single player content) and vastly more free post launch support, tweaks, bug fixes, balance updates, and full blow features than any Halo received. (See my post to Avateur for details)

That doesn't discount what you feel in the least, of course. Destiny did launch with an inferior in-game story, and has required the replaying of content if you want to remain at the top of the Light Level and weapon damage curves. I just think from an actual pricing perspective Destiny, so far, hasn't demanded more from your wallet than other "recent" Bungie games did.

COD - Levels gate progress, you reset your progress at max level and repeat.
Titanfall - Same
Battlefield - you level each gun and vehicle perk via use. One you top out that's it.
Evolve - you level up guys to get bonus perks and unlock more guys to level up hard stop at the end.
World of (tanks, battleships, planes etc) you level up crew, vehicles and progress to end game vehicles. Hard stop at the end.

Destiny's end game is more like WoW or MMO's where it is defined by your gear, and initially very much like those MMOs you had to get to the hard end game content in order to get that gear. They've softened this greatly with the HoW changes.

"However, in a game that has an end, your weapons are getting stronger as the challenge level rises, which is where I feel the satisfaction is. You're not going to be getting a weak gun at the end of the game, but your once weak gun might now be upgraded and capable of the challenge."

Again, in the more MMO style you do ditch old gear as you get stronger and stronger stuff. In the more common FPSs above there is no real gear quality and all weapons when kitted out are more or less at the same level. Admittedly I haven't played WoW in a very long time, but when I did every expansion pretty much meant ditching all your old weapons and equipment to get new ones. Likewise Skyrim you got rid of that iron blade once you stared forging magic dragon bone weapons.

From an industry benchmark, no one currently lets you take your Kostov and upgrade it to Mythoclast levels. Not that that isn't a cool idea, where instead of gear drops you get materials that you use to slowly evolve your guns into their own unique, personalized variant that is at the max level. (Something like the old Army of Two system, where you essentially had Lego guns that you could swap everything out as you found new stuff)

Destiny has its faults for sure, perhaps more than some pervious Bungie games, but I think your trying to set it apart from every other Bungie game, especially in view of some of your past criticisms, is very disingenuous.

The presentation/management/something of Destiny is quite cynical. Whether this is from Bungie or Activision does not matter - it's Bungie's game. To me, what sets it distinctly apart is that I feel like a wallet instead of a fan. Like amid the gameplay there is cold, hard psychology designed specifically to keep me paying and playing.

Like a slot machine.

I believe this is what Cody was after. Some entities in Bungie are doing what they've always done, while other entities are aimed squarely at manipulation.

Destiny is distinct in this way - not just among Bungie games; I have never owned a game that made me feel like this.

There's a lot about Destiny that feels very authentic. The art, the lore, the game feel, the guns, the raids. The Vault of Glass wouldn't exist if there wasn't someone extremely passionate about making a kick ass raid working on it. This is all why I play Destiny.

But the dichotomy is that there is a great deal about Destiny that feels completely inauthentic - things that feel cold and calculated and integrated for reasons other than game quality. The repetition and grinding, the barely there narrative, the trickle of DLC content, RNG loot, the promotional tie ins, platform exclusives, lack of game customization, and others.

These two statements perfectly sum up how I feel about Destiny. I have been in conflict with myself since I bought Destiny. Wild swings from simple joy to the feeling of being used. Back and forth, back and forth. I think it's fair to say that we (as a community in general) have been in conflict as well, and it seems like every time things settle down some new controversy erupts.

The music and the player controls and the time with friends are the very best - these are what make Destiny worth the cost of admission. But the rest...?

I've been clean for a month, and feel better for it.

I want to play the raid with minimal bullshit. I want to play the new pvp modes with minimal bullshit. Play with the new subclasses with minimal bullshit. Can that happen? If so they have my money.

What if they give you all of that, but also include micro-transactions for shiny things? Are you willing to forgive my ability to buy a shiny class item and keep playing the awesome new raids despite your earlier "promise"?

Of course the interviews would sugar coat their decisions. They aren't going to say they filled the world with annoying limits/caps so that we can't get rewards for doing what we want to do over and over. These types of decisions just waste player time and delay gratification. Give me all my gratification now!!! Materials farming alone probably cost the world 10+ million collectively-wasted hours.

Thanks for proving my point.

My argument is that proving something like authenticity after the fact is a bit pointless. Saying that you simply won't accept evidence just underscores that.

No it's mostly that now I don't have to worry as much about that anymore. I don't have to grind strikes. I don't have to grind marks or rep. I have everything I need except for Hawkmoon. Now I play pretty much purely for fun. But who knows how the taken king progression will work. Will all our gear need replacing? Will there be more shit to grind? Who knows. Bungie isn't saying. I am 100% on the fence until I am sure stupid game design decisions are at a minimum in TTK. Life is getting too cool to waste time.

I want to play the raid with minimal bullshit. I want to play the new pvp modes with minimal bullshit. Play with the new subclasses with minimal bullshit. Can that happen? If so they have my money.

I've also cut the bullshit. Things I can't be bothered with anymore:

The tower
Strike playlists
Bounties (except the Petra ones)
Non-elemental primaries
Glimmer (since I don't upgrade so-so stuff, I'm almost always at 25k)
Normal Vault of glass
Hard/normal Crota
Daily missions
Picking up planetary materials that are right next to me. Unless I'm waiting for a wolves bounty -- except on Venus.
Seeking out chests I spot across the map
Patrols (unless it's for a Perra Bounty)
Fusion and auto rifles (except exotics)

What else can I ignore to streamline the fun?

Grinding is a reward for playing different activities (IE, "Ohh mayve I didn't get a cool weapon, but I unlocked a new perk or found that shard I needed").
Mat farming get people out in the world, and colliding with other players, and participating in public events
Mark limits get people to break off from different activities to try other things in the game.
Gating is a way to ensure the community has a level of practice before entering certain events etc.

I could go through, and pull up interview quotes to support these views. I could also point to holes in your line of argumentation. While there's value of trying to follow a design decision to it's root sometimes, this seems so general, and so far from the final decision that it seems pointless.

Of course the interviews would sugar coat their decisions. They aren't going to say they filled the world with annoying limits/caps so that we can't get rewards for doing what we want to do over and over. These types of decisions just waste player time and delay gratification. Give me all my gratification now!!! Materials farming alone probably cost the world 10+ million collectively-wasted hours.

Quite the opposite, the game IMO is 100% authentic Bungie. It's beautiful, it's crisp, it's probably the sharpest of the shooters I've ever played. It's full of "guns, grenades, and melee's". The 3 pillars of Bungie fun. The story is definitely lacking, but the base lore exists to flesh out stories upon stories. I would also attribute a weak story, to the teams focus on functionality first. The GDC chat about the Netcode seems like it is extremely complicated to implement, hence Noah's ark of error codes. Glad it works as well as it does considering all that.

It's really a slap in the face to all the hardworking folks at Bungie, to repetitively critique their work, and question their ethics, and essentially disregard their accomplishments, all the while putting in hundreds of hours into a game you appear to enjoy. Even more, I feel in someways it's also a slap in the face to a group of folks who have created a site dedicated to the company that has created the games we LOVE, and to those of us who came here to share our passion for Bungie and Destiny. I don't login here everyday to hear another I despise/hate/loath X,Y,Z about Bungie/Destiny. I login to discuss the things I enjoy, learn from others, share my Destiny experiences. Sometimes Korny can be a little trollish (Love ya Korn :P), but he also goes out of his way to post about his unique exotic armor creation. Even going so far as to provide subtext and visual accouterments.

I believe I made it quite clear that I admire the work of many of the folks working on Destiny. So much of it is good. The only faces I want to slap are those responsible for the investment system, and the planning of the content delivery. Also please do not lecture me about being a real Bungie fan. I've been with them since winter 1994. Why do you think I come to Bungie.org? Because I love the games and the community. Again, Destiny could have been amazing had it not been for what I constantly complain about. Even a lot of that is changing. The grind is becoming less and less. They are apparently taking the story missions and the narrative way more seriously. The fact I still critique means I still hold them in regard. I simply shut developers like Blizzard out and don't even think about them anymore, much less play their games.

That being said I really do not want anyone turned away from here because of my posts. Just do what mig and leviathan do: roll your eyes and move to the next thread ;-p

Roll my eyes? I've never done such a thing!

Now, shake my fist in the air, declaring revenge? ...Possibly.:P

Quite the opposite, the game IMO is 100% authentic Bungie. It's beautiful, it's crisp, it's probably the sharpest of the shooters I've ever played. It's full of "guns, grenades, and melee's". The 3 pillars of Bungie fun. The story is definitely lacking, but the base lore exists to flesh out stories upon stories. I would also attribute a weak story, to the teams focus on functionality first. The GDC chat about the Netcode seems like it is extremely complicated to implement, hence Noah's ark of error codes. Glad it works as well as it does considering all that.

It's really a slap in the face to all the hardworking folks at Bungie, to repetitively critique their work, and question their ethics, and essentially disregard their accomplishments, all the while putting in hundreds of hours into a game you appear to enjoy. Even more, I feel in someways it's also a slap in the face to a group of folks who have created a site dedicated to the company that has created the games we LOVE, and to those of us who came here to share our passion for Bungie and Destiny. I don't login here everyday to hear another I despise/hate/loath X,Y,Z about Bungie/Destiny. I login to discuss the things I enjoy, learn from others, share my Destiny experiences. Sometimes Korny can be a little trollish (Love ya Korn :P), but he also goes out of his way to post about his unique exotic armor creation. Even going so far as to provide subtext and visual accouterments.

I believe I made it quite clear that I admire the work of many of the folks working on Destiny. So much of it is good. The only faces I want to slap are those responsible for the investment system, and the planning of the content delivery. Also please do not lecture me about being a real Bungie fan. I've been with them since winter 1994. Why do you think I come to Bungie.org? Because I love the games and the community. Again, Destiny could have been amazing had it not been for what I constantly complain about. Even a lot of that is changing. The grind is becoming less and less. They are apparently taking the story missions and the narrative way more seriously. The fact I still critique means I still hold them in regard. I simply shut developers like Blizzard out and don't even think about them anymore, much less play their games.

That being said I really do not want anyone turned away from here because of my posts. Just do what mig and leviathan do: roll your eyes and move to the next thread ;-p

Why can't we see more of your positive side? I don't know you, but many folks speak highly of you, and I'm sure you have it in you. You sound like a pretty creative guy. You edit film/video? Where are your montages? Epic Fails? Tutorials? Anything other than flappin gums, blah blah blah, Destiny bad. Follow CruelLegacy's lead and mix it up. I think he does a great job voicing some concerns, but also looking at the bright side and not being as confrontational as you often appear to be.

To be fair: Cody is responsible for DBO's cutscene collection being in 1080p, 5.1 surround sound (and HBO's before it). He's done other stuff over the years (not really for Destiny yet) - he definitely contributes positively.

When I speak of authenticity, I'm talking about just the general joy in making the best thing you can.

I'm not really sure if I understand your intended usage of the word "authenticity". It has a few varying definitions, but none like your description above. I'm assuming that you mean that Bungie didn't design this game with pure "gaming joy" in mind, but rather as a sinkhole meant to pull consumers in, and grab all the monies from them.

The fact that it's not purely about making the best game they can make.

I don't even in the slightest believe that bungie set out to create a giant cash cow, looking at ways to cut, crimp, and save. I don't think they held back content strictly to make us pay for it in DLC's. I don't think level capping techniques were applied to cause a player frustration. "Grind" wasn't a design, it was a side effect of the new systems bungie was attempting to employ colliding with the human nature to "get more stuff". I don't think they compromised their work or beliefs and said "meh, we are ok with an inferior product".

What I do think was in the minds of the creative powers in Bungie was to meld multiple genres of games in a newly minted, non classifiable audiovisual experience. Something that we've never seen the likes of.... well, at least that was the intention. The MMORPGFPS is an experiment in development. Sure there are games like it, Borderlands, Warframe, (I've never played any of those so I don't really know how they relate). Even though these exist, I think the plan was something a little more unique than these.

For whatever reason, what we, and possibly they, expected didn't congeal. I feel there was a Halo 2 issue. Things just didn't work out as expected. The reach was farther than the grasp so to speak. Things had to be rolled back to provide us with a working product. That doesn't mean that Bungie is at fault, just that they are human. For as much as we bought a "broken/incomplete game" it has worked pretty much completely from the get go. We could have gotten an AC Unity or Driveclub or BF4 release where the games were essentially if not actually unplayable.

Quite the opposite, the game IMO is 100% authentic Bungie. It's beautiful, it's crisp, it's probably the sharpest of the shooters I've ever played. It's full of "guns, grenades, and melee's". The 3 pillars of Bungie fun. The story is definitely lacking, but the base lore exists to flesh out stories upon stories. I would also attribute a weak story, to the teams focus on functionality first. The GDC chat about the Netcode seems like it is extremely complicated to implement, hence Noah's ark of error codes. Glad it works as well as it does considering all that.

It's really a slap in the face to all the hardworking folks at Bungie, to repetitively critique their work, and question their ethics, and essentially disregard their accomplishments, all the while putting in hundreds of hours into a game you appear to enjoy. Even more, I feel in someways it's also a slap in the face to a group of folks who have created a site dedicated to the company that has created the games we LOVE, and to those of us who came here to share our passion for Bungie and Destiny. I don't login here everyday to hear another I despise/hate/loath X,Y,Z about Bungie/Destiny. I login to discuss the things I enjoy, learn from others, share my Destiny experiences. Sometimes Korny can be a little trollish (Love ya Korn :P), but he also goes out of his way to post about his unique exotic armor creation. Even going so far as to provide subtext and visual accouterments.

Why can't we see more of your positive side? I don't know you, but many folks speak highly of you, and I'm sure you have it in you. You sound like a pretty creative guy. You edit film/video? Where are your montages? Epic Fails? Tutorials? Anything other than flappin gums, blah blah blah, Destiny bad. Follow CruelLegacy's lead and mix it up. I think he does a great job voicing some concerns, but also looking at the bright side and not being as confrontational as you often appear to be.

That's my piece, and I'm out.

So in your estimation Destiny is just so awesome that you can't give it up despite being surrounded by so much toxicity and inauthenticity? I mean I'm discounting that you're actually in crisis about continuing to play, I know you're going to keep playing.

It's just interesting to note that you're willing to come out so hard and so often against a game that you even believe to be inauthentic in its relationship to players, yet are evidently powerless to take a stand against it.

Could it be that you've fallen prey to the very thing that you struggle against and decry? Those level up bars can be mighty satisfying after all.

No it's mostly that now I don't have to worry as much about that anymore. I don't have to grind strikes. I don't have to grind marks or rep. I have everything I need except for Hawkmoon. Now I play pretty much purely for fun. But who knows how the taken king progression will work. Will all our gear need replacing? Will there be more shit to grind? Who knows. Bungie isn't saying. I am 100% on the fence until I am sure stupid game design decisions are at a minimum in TTK. Life is getting too cool to waste time.

I want to play the raid with minimal bullshit. I want to play the new pvp modes with minimal bullshit. Play with the new subclasses with minimal bullshit. Can that happen? If so they have my money.

Grinding is a reward for playing different activities (IE, "Ohh mayve I didn't get a cool weapon, but I unlocked a new perk or found that shard I needed").
Mat farming get people out in the world, and colliding with other players, and participating in public events
Mark limits get people to break off from different activities to try other things in the game.
Gating is a way to ensure the community has a level of practice before entering certain events etc.

I could go through, and pull up interview quotes to support these views. I could also point to holes in your line of argumentation. While there's value of trying to follow a design decision to it's root sometimes, this seems so general, and so far from the final decision that it seems pointless.

Deliver Hope didn't happen in game, but it was actually nicely based upon Noble Team's backstory. Become Legend isn't based on much really, but it accurately depicted our ability to roam from planet to planet in Destiny. Law of the Jungle, however, seems inconsistent to me with regards to Destiny's story. The Law of the Jungle poem doesn't so much hold within Destiny's narrative or themes, and the father reading to his son... well we don't have a very good idea how Guardians and families interact or if children can grow up to become Guardians or if every Guardian has to start out as a dead adult...

Sounds to me like you are as confused as a hungry baby in a strip club.

This had me in stitches for about a minute.

Just wanted to let you know that.