Even if the above scenario is not possible, there's a chance some other procedure might yield the same results.

So the question becomes, is the chance of that worth it for the benefit to the people who would be willing and able to resume the same activity with the same exact fireteam within a one week period-- a requirement the raids do not have because all players in a raid get the checkpoint, which can be freely shared with all comers?

I'm all for players actually playing the game, but on this issue I'm thinking maybe it's ok to let a few players slip through the checkpoint crack and get their easy rewards in exchange for frustrated players like me and the others in this thread actually being able to fit the encounter into our schedules.

Perhaps they will, too, at some point. If they don't it may be because they have superior information-- either about the technical feasibility of doing so, or because they have information that contradicts the idea that the players who would exploit the system are "few" and that those who have lost time to disconnections are many.

We've already seen Bungie say that a large percentage of Destiny players didn't do Raids; I don't know if PoE has expanded the reach of end-game content. I think that was surely the intent. If it hasn't, then, the question is whether or not it's a good idea to bring new players to endgame content at the cost of opening up a potential vector for an exploit if a high enough percentage of the new players are only going to be there because of the exploit (thinking of the IB rep bug here) and if the total portion of players doing PoE anyway is not high enough that the percentage experiencing disconnection issues related to that content is also relatively small.

I just don't know. Have to wait and see.

Even if the above scenario is not possible, there's a chance some other procedure might yield the same results.

So the question becomes, is the chance of that worth it for the benefit to the people who would be willing and able to resume the same activity with the same exact fireteam within a one week period-- a requirement the raids do not have because all players in a raid get the checkpoint, which can be freely shared with all comers?

I'm all for players actually playing the game, but on this issue I'm thinking maybe it's ok to let a few players slip through the checkpoint crack and get their easy rewards in exchange for frustrated players like me and the others in this thread actually being able to fit the encounter into our schedules.

This is like the mantra/bane of every modern, online-supported game out there. It certainly has become of the meta-games of Destiny, at least.

No one is saying it's an easy fix, but to not address it at all feels rather disrespectful.

I don't know if this has been suggested already - there've been a lot of long posts that I haven't read entirely - but what if the check points were summed; only allowing you to join the later rounds if you had already cleared the previous ones? This data is already tracked, and something like it is implemented in every Exotic bounty quest-line; you have to progress through the steps, and you can come back to it at any time. The only difference for PoE would be that you could come back any time before the next weekly reset. If you have a Round-3 checkpoint, you can join any fireteam at Round-3 or earlier, but you can't bring just anyone with you unless they too have at least a Round-3 checkpoint. This way you can still keep all the rewards in Scrooge McDuck's Vault at the end, and you won't have people passing around checkpoints like they do with the raids.

Perhaps they can do this. Perhaps they will do this. I couldn't possibly say.

I can only guess that Bungie has access to voluminous data that we don't. They probably have, for instance, data on how Raid checkpoints get used, that don't have these restrictions. So the question becomes, how long would it take to make this feature, how often would that feature be used (same fireteam coming back at a later date/time during the same week to the same activity, without any intervening play by one or more of the participants in the same activity that would erase the checkpoint) as well as the time needed to troubleshoot that feature and potential exploits. For instance, I can think of one right now.

Dead players in some activities can't go to orbit, but you can always switch characters, which achieves the same result.

You can join PoE activities during a wipe if the fireteam has an empty slot.

So a fireteam advances to the final round of a PoE activity, and saves a checkpoint. Upon resuming play at that point with the same fireteam, two players die and switch characters, sending them to orbit. As I understand it, other players may now join that fireteam-- bang, you've now got a nice side business selling two fireteam slots with Skolas checkpoints to people (like me) who have not yet made it that far by themselves.

Even if the above scenario is not possible, there's a chance some other procedure might yield the same results.

So the question becomes, is the chance of that worth it for the benefit to the people who would be willing and able to resume the same activity with the same exact fireteam within a one week period-- a requirement the raids do not have because all players in a raid get the checkpoint, which can be freely shared with all comers?

Don't know about this reddit thing you speak of, sounds like witchcraft.... ;)

This is like the mantra/bane of every modern, online-supported game out there. It certainly has become of the meta-games of Destiny, at least.

No one is saying it's an easy fix, but to not address it at all feels rather disrespectful.

I don't know if this has been suggested already - there've been a lot of long posts that I haven't read entirely - but what if the check points were summed; only allowing you to join the later rounds if you had already cleared the previous ones? This data is already tracked, and something like it is implemented in every Exotic bounty quest-line; you have to progress through the steps, and you can come back to it at any time. The only difference for PoE would be that you could come back any time before the next weekly reset. If you have a Round-3 checkpoint, you can join any fireteam at Round-3 or earlier, but you can't bring just anyone with you unless they too have at least a Round-3 checkpoint. This way you can still keep all the rewards in Scrooge McDuck's Vault at the end, and you won't have people passing around checkpoints like they do with the raids.

I have no idea why this isn't the solution. It's so simple, and is better than the current system with no drawbacks over the current system. I would amend that in that if you finish the PoE, your checkpoints should be erased.

No one is saying it's an easy fix, but to not address it at all feels rather disrespectful.

I don't know if this has been suggested already - there've been a lot of long posts that I haven't read entirely - but what if the check points were summed; only allowing you to join the later rounds if you had already cleared the previous ones? This data is already tracked, and something like it is implemented in every Exotic bounty quest-line; you have to progress through the steps, and you can come back to it at any time. The only difference for PoE would be that you could come back any time before the next weekly reset. If you have a Round-3 checkpoint, you can join any fireteam at Round-3 or earlier, but you can't bring just anyone with you unless they too have at least a Round-3 checkpoint. This way you can still keep all the rewards in Scrooge McDuck's Vault at the end, and you won't have people passing around checkpoints like they do with the raids.

Have a card like Trials of Osiris.
After each round, you get a mark for that round.

You cannot open the chest at the end unless you have each round checked on your card.

You could join mid-way through. Maybe you need to help a friend out that had someone drop(or whatever),but unless you have all the checkpoints checked, you don't get the reward.

EDIT: forgot to add, you should be able to start a game from the last CONSECUTIVE round you've unlocked. So if you helped a friend do the last two rounds only, you would start from the beginning. But if you had done the first 3 rounds, then got disconnected/your ISP crapped out?life got in the way, then you would be able to pick up where you left off.

Seriously? You're arguing that checkpoints that would allow you to come back into the game when a network error booted you is somehow removing the CHALLENGE from the game? As in, Bungie PLANNED for random disconnects to increase the difficulty?

And once such checkpoints are created by disconnections, we'll also expect Bungie to police actual disconnections from "oops, I tripped over the ethernet cable" disconnections?

I think Destiny is doing about as well with its netcode as any modern game can or does. It is playable under conditions that cause other current and older games to stutter, fold, and die. I'm not sure it's a good idea to start changing design elements of encounters to compensate for losses due to connections issues.

FWIW, this has happened to me also. I just don't think checkpoints are an easy fix, and I think they'll have unintended consequences.

The main issue that I've had is this:

People want rewards for doing simple things (such as Cody wanting rewards at each round), or they want to be able to join a group at the final fight and skip the first four rounds, afterwards whining about how little they have to do in the game.

I don't know what people you're talking about, because I haven't said anything of the sort, nor have I heard anyone else here. If you're trying to make an argument about some group elsewhere, then I suggest you go wherever they are and make that point in the appropriate place. No one here wants something for nothing, so please stop knocking down that straw-man.

This reminds me of something the Queen said to her brother:

"When you guess at other people's motives, often you only reveal your own".

People want rewards for doing simple things (such as Cody wanting rewards at each round), or they want to be able to join a group at the final fight and skip the first four rounds, afterwards whining about how little they have to do in the game.

No. Your problem is that you are making up motives for people. I only want a checkpoint so I actually have time to beat the darn challange. Not so I can get easy rewards! I would actually prefer a modified checkpoint system that made me play every round instead of the current Raid checkpoint system that lets me jump in at the end. I'm pretty tired of beating Crota over and over when "beating Crota" really means stand around the crystal. Go outside and fire three sniper shots. Let other people do the Sword and rocketing. "Win."

Are there people who will abuse an unmodified, Raid-style checkpoint system? Yep. But is anyone in this thread asking for checkpoints just so they can get an easy win? I don't think so. So stop acting as if that's their argument.

The main issue that I've had is this:

People want rewards for doing simple things (such as Cody wanting rewards at each round), or they want to be able to join a group at the final fight and skip the first four rounds, afterwards whining about how little they have to do in the game.

I don't know what people you're talking about, because I haven't said anything of the sort, nor have I heard anyone else here. If you're trying to make an argument about some group elsewhere, then I suggest you go wherever they are and make that point in the appropriate place. No one here wants something for nothing, so please stop knocking down that straw-man.

Are you suggesting that Bungie should add microtransactions that let you prevent a team wipe? They totally could (Plants vs. Zombies: Garden Warfare lets you do this). But the Skolas fight lets you skip the first hour or so simply by restarting you at his fight.

Whoa whoa. Is anybody here suggesting that the Round 5 Skolas fight itself needs checkpoints? If so, I'd disagree with that. The only checkpoints I'd want are per-round checkpoints or really just a single checkpoint at the beginning of the Skolas fight so if my team beats Rounds 1-4 we can come back later in the day and tackle Skolas.

People want a checkpoint before the Skolas fight. Problem with this is the same as checkpoints elsewhere. People can completely skip huge chunks of the fight and reap rewards simply by doing the last part. At the same time, they'd complain that there aren't challenging PvE experiences... How many people skipped the Ir Yut fight simply because it didn't have rewards? How many people skip the Confluxes? How many ask for Gorgon chest checkpoints on LFGs?
There are compromises, and many people have echoed the same ones, and some of them would work, and work well. I'm not against those, really.

A different example; The Last of Us's "Grounded" difficulty is extremely unforgiving, and death sends you back two checkpoints. And yet, the game doesn't get any shorter or hold your hand if you wasted ammo before you really needed it. In fact, I spent hours repeatedly playing a segment over and over just to get it right. Similarly, the Skolas fight is difficult in that you have to start it over sometimes just because of one mistake (such as when the infected Guardian is the last man standing, or when you simply don't make it to the mines in time). Of course you start from the beginning with nothing to show for it (Cyber, Destroyo, and I got Skolas down to 10% health at one point, but after dismantling the second mines, Cyber and Destroyo died, leaving me with the Infection and nobody to hand it to).

Again, I'd like to see the others in this thread chime in. When I hear talk of checkpoints I think of either one per round or simply one to section off the first four rounds from the fifth. Maybe I've completely misunderstood what everyone else is asking for and it isn't actually what I want!

But here's the thing with the Skolas fight. If you do everything flawlessly, the entire thing is around an hour, maybe less. The only reason it's longer is because of lack of skill, communication, or the occasional disconnect (which I've never encountered, but you can rejoin). The disconnect is an issue that has been acknowledged and addressed already, so if you are still running the PoE, you should be ready for this apparent eventuality. It's not by design, so checkpoints wouldn't change the fact that you'll still get kicked out mid-game, especially since you can already rejoin (although that too might not be by design).

Ok... this is where I have to stop you, for a number of reasons:

1. The disconnect issue has not been addressed yet to the best of my knowledge. Unless you're posting from the issues of disconnects in the Prison of Elders is still very real. You can't just dismiss disconnects because some of them (as the reconnect feature is not meant to solve every disconnect problem) might be recoverable at some point in the future.

I'm not dismissing them. I'm saying that Bungie is adding a fix to that issue soon. How hard is that for people to understand?
What do you want to happen when you're disconnected outside of the game reconnecting you like it does in Trials?

2. "Just do it flawlessly" is an absurd suggestion. Is it technically possible? Sure! Is being flawless going to be realistic for most people, especially people like me and my team who had never even gotten to the Tainted Light section of the Crota battle before, much less figured out how to deal with it and then the mines on top of it? Absolutely not!

Of course it's an absurd suggestion, which is what I was telling Cody "Arcade games are short!" Miller. The 35 PoE would be short of you played flawlessly, but that's a lot to ask of people. What makes the encounter long is the people, not the game itself (especially after the nerfs applied to Skolas).

I get that you apparently like really hard challenges. But most people aren't you, I don't think. Most people are not going to want to play a intense game for four hours at a time. I think most of us like the Skolas battle and the strategies needed to beat it but we simply don't have the time. And accounting for a lack of time is something Bungie already solved pretty well in the two Raids with checkpoints after key progress is made.

I'm not saying "I have no problem, so there's no problem". Cody made a dumb, arbitrary statement (shocking!), and I presented examples that counter his argument. I've said that the Skolas fight should be tough, and a commitment. I didn't say that it should be four hours long when played flawlessly.

The main issue that I've had is this:

People want rewards for doing simple things (such as Cody wanting rewards at each round), or they want to be able to join a group at the final fight and skip the first four rounds, afterwards whining about how little they have to do in the game.

Are you suggesting that Bungie should add microtransactions that let you prevent a team wipe? They totally could (Plants vs. Zombies: Garden Warfare lets you do this). But the Skolas fight lets you skip the first hour or so simply by restarting you at his fight.

Whoa whoa. Is anybody here suggesting that the Round 5 Skolas fight itself needs checkpoints? If so, I'd disagree with that. The only checkpoints I'd want are per-round checkpoints or really just a single checkpoint at the beginning of the Skolas fight so if my team beats Rounds 1-4 we can come back later in the day and tackle Skolas.

A different example; The Last of Us's "Grounded" difficulty is extremely unforgiving, and death sends you back two checkpoints. And yet, the game doesn't get any shorter or hold your hand if you wasted ammo before you really needed it. In fact, I spent hours repeatedly playing a segment over and over just to get it right. Similarly, the Skolas fight is difficult in that you have to start it over sometimes just because of one mistake (such as when the infected Guardian is the last man standing, or when you simply don't make it to the mines in time). Of course you start from the beginning with nothing to show for it (Cyber, Destroyo, and I got Skolas down to 10% health at one point, but after dismantling the second mines, Cyber and Destroyo died, leaving me with the Infection and nobody to hand it to).

Again, I'd like to see the others in this thread chime in. When I hear talk of checkpoints I think of either one per round or simply one to section off the first four rounds from the fifth. Maybe I've completely misunderstood what everyone else is asking for and it isn't actually what I want!

But here's the thing with the Skolas fight. If you do everything flawlessly, the entire thing is around an hour, maybe less. The only reason it's longer is because of lack of skill, communication, or the occasional disconnect (which I've never encountered, but you can rejoin). The disconnect is an issue that has been acknowledged and addressed already, so if you are still running the PoE, you should be ready for this apparent eventuality. It's not by design, so checkpoints wouldn't change the fact that you'll still get kicked out mid-game, especially since you can already rejoin (although that too might not be by design).

Ok... this is where I have to stop you, for a number of reasons:

1. The disconnect issue has not been addressed yet to the best of my knowledge. Unless you're posting from the issues of disconnects in the Prison of Elders is still very real. You can't just dismiss disconnects because some of them (as the reconnect feature is not meant to solve every disconnect problem) might be recoverable at some point in the future.

2. "Just do it flawlessly" is an absurd suggestion. Is it technically possible? Sure! Is being flawless going to be realistic for most people, especially people like me and my team who had never even gotten to the Tainted Light section of the Crota battle before, much less figured out how to deal with it and then the mines on top of it? Absolutely not!

I get that you apparently like really hard challenges. But most people aren't you, I don't think. Most people are not going to want to play a intense game for four hours at a time. I think most of us like the Skolas battle and the strategies needed to beat it but we simply don't have the time. And accounting for a lack of time is something Bungie already solved pretty well in the two Raids with checkpoints after key progress is made.

It should be tough, it should be frustrating, and it should take a long time to get through. Checkpoints negate that, because they turn a great challenge into bite sized baby steps that you can do throughout the week.

You have clearly missed the point of what made arcade games so good. Most arcade games take less than 45 minutes to beat. Most are around 35. Why is that? Because when you can't save, and have to start over from the beginning, asking the player to play at a high level, perfectly, without mistakes for more than a half hour is unreasonable. This is why nearly all games that don;t save your progress are short.

You miss out that in order to finish the arcade games in such a short time, you have to play very well, or pay money to continue. If you get 90% done, but don't have enough money, you end up back at the beginning of the entire game with nothing to show for it. My older sister and I would play House of the Dead 2 for hours and hours, never reaching the end, until almost a year after we first played it, and yet up to and including that point, we never had checkpoints or anything to show for it. Your mistakes cost money. In the Skolas fight, your mistakes cost time. Are you suggesting that Bungie should add microtransactions that let you prevent a team wipe? They totally could (Plants vs. Zombies: Garden Warfare lets you do this). But the Skolas fight lets you skip the first hour or so simply by restarting you at his fight.

As for challenging experiences being short, Dead Space 2's "Hard Core" difficulty is one of my favorite gaming experiences ever. In it, you have to beat the entire game with only three checkpoints at your disposal. What that means is that if you want to make progress, you have to play flawlessly, and nonstop for at least four hours at a time. Unreasonable for even dedicated gamers, much less the casuals that love checkpoints, but it is seriously one of the best gaming experiences one could ask for; every enemy is terrifying, every bit of ammo precious, and every step forward is a chance to lose all progress... I didn't beat it at that difficulty until the anniversary of the day that I bought the game; it was that tough, and I had to prepare mentally for it... I highly recommend it.

A different example; The Last of Us's "Grounded" difficulty is extremely unforgiving, and death sends you back two checkpoints. And yet, the game doesn't get any shorter or hold your hand if you wasted ammo before you really needed it. In fact, I spent hours repeatedly playing a segment over and over just to get it right. Similarly, the Skolas fight is difficult in that you have to start it over sometimes just because of one mistake (such as when the infected Guardian is the last man standing, or when you simply don't make it to the mines in time). Of course you start from the beginning with nothing to show for it (Cyber, Destroyo, and I got Skolas down to 10% health at one point, but after dismantling the second mines, Cyber and Destroyo died, leaving me with the Infection and nobody to hand it to).

There is a sweet spot to challenges. At some point it becomes endurance and not really a challenge in the fun sense. There is nothing inherently more challenging with having to do Skolas in one go. You already get infinite continues. A Checkpoint changes none of that.

But here's the thing with the Skolas fight. If you do everything flawlessly, the entire thing is around an hour, maybe less. The only reason it's longer is because of lack of skill, communication, or the occasional disconnect (which I've never encountered, but you can rejoin). The disconnect is an issue that has been acknowledged and addressed already, so if you are still running the PoE, you should be ready for this apparent eventuality. It's not by design, so checkpoints wouldn't change the fact that you'll still get kicked out mid-game, especially since you can already rejoin (although that too might not be by design).

It should be tough, it should be frustrating, and it should take a long time to get through. Checkpoints negate that, because they turn a great challenge into bite sized baby steps that you can do throughout the week.

You have clearly missed the point of what made arcade games so good. Most arcade games take less than 45 minutes to beat. Most are around 35. Why is that? Because when you can't save, and have to start over from the beginning, asking the player to play at a high level, perfectly, without mistakes for more than a half hour is unreasonable. This is why nearly all games that don;t save your progress are short.

There is a sweet spot to challenges. At some point it becomes endurance and not really a challenge in the fun sense. There is nothing inherently more challenging with having to do Skolas in one go. You already get infinite continues. A Checkpoint changes none of that.

Seriously? You're arguing that checkpoints that would allow you to come back into the game when a network error booted you is somehow removing the CHALLENGE from the game? As in, Bungie PLANNED for random disconnects to increase the difficulty?

I totally get the argument that the game shouldn't hold our hands, and I totally get that your first response came from a position where you thought he was complaining about that. But after he explained that network bugs booted him (not once, but TWICE), you STILL suggest that he's thinking about it wrong if he thinks his time is being wasted?

You're trolling, Korny. And not even about a good subject. :(

Disconnects are bad, and that's not what I was talking about. I had said that Bungie already said that they were extending the reconnect feature from Trials to other areas of Destiny, and that would solve his biggest complaint. Bugs like that do waste your time, but even without them, the Skolas fight is a long commitment. Both because of difficulty, and how long it takes to reach him, and that's what I think is part of the "ultimate PvE challenge". It should be tough, it should be frustrating, and it should take a long time to get through. Checkpoints negate that, because they turn a great challenge into bite sized baby steps that you can do throughout the week.

And maybe that's not a bad thing, per se, but I like my challenges actually challenging. The point was raised that the game should be the tough part, not the schedule, and I can understand that, and I pointed out two ways that Bungie could compromise on checkpoints to retain the inability to easily exploit the encounter.

I thought your first post was fine.

When he explained that his post was generated by the frustration caused by a pair of disconnects, and you CONTINUED to suggest that decreasing the challenge was bad, one of two things had to be true: you were pretty much ignoring his response to you, or you were trolling. (I assumed the latter, since you're usually pretty good at paying attention.)

I guess I felt like there were plenty of other places to make the point you were trying to make - making it in direct response to Mid7night's explanation that he wasn't looking to make the challenge easier, he was looking to find ways to not void the time he put in due to network bugs seemed... superfluous. (Rude, even.)