Why you do this? You play this game, where you "agree" with me on something, and then attempt to belittle me. On point:

It's not black and white like you're trying to make it. I can both agree with you and disagree with you, and you can do the same with me. You're right on some stuff, and I'd say dead wrong on others.

And as for belittlement, what do you describe calling people in this thread crazy, dismissing plenty of what they say or think, and telling them that it's all in their heads?

Dude, you and I don't see eye to eye on anything, and I was "dead wrong" about the boltshot, eh?

Not in a million years.

343 did what 343 likes to do, which is try to please everyone, thus pleasing no one. So when the most vocal of complainers piss and moan that the BS needed to change, they did it to appease what player base they have left. For all I try to defend them with, they have a -terrible- habit of not doing what they say, and not saying what they mean. "14 day buy and play" comes to mind.

While we both know that in my mind 343 can do no right, and while I agree that they try to please everyone and manage to please no one, their weapon tuning, even the parts of it I disagree with and still think are wrong, was done in part because H4 had major weapon balancing problems in general. This included the DMR, which was the most overpowered weapon of them all. It got fixed, and in a good way! The Boltshot is included in the balance issues that were fixed, though I still feel that it wasn't enough.

It wasn't because the gun was broken, you doofus, if was to keep their crumbling population for crumbling further.

Oh. So what was Bungie's reasoning for buffing Hand Cannons while nerfing plenty of stuff with Auto Rifles? Let's see, there was an outcry, right? Because, truth be told objectively, Auto Rifles were unbalanced, right? And Pulse Rifles, Scout Rifles, and Hand Cannons all got buffed up, right?

And if more weapon tuning or buffs or nerfs come down the line later, and assuming they happen to target Thorn, The Last Word, Hawkmoon, and some other guns that quite clearly have a crazy edge, there's no way that would be because Bungie looked at the stats and made a balancing decision, right? It's all in our heads, we're all crazy, and the gametypes themselves are off, not the weapons.

"We heard your cries and agree, the boltshot is OP and needs to be tweaked!" really meant "Please don't stop playing our game! We'll do whatever you want! Just play!"

You're probably right on this one as far as motivation goes, but there's still a nifty fact in there: H4 weapons had balancing issues and, gasp, 343 actually fixed some while failing with others! Just like Bungie's weapon balancing fixes have, as I said originally up above, been a general problem. I feel like Bungie's working on finding that nice balance. They've already said that these weapon tweaks aren't the last ones. They're gathering data. We'll see what happens, right?

Thorn.

In a previous post you mention you haven't even used Thorn yourself... So how, exactly, is that supposed to make your points, uh...valid?

Oh, you get killed with it a lot? So that must make you qualified enough to say it needs to be nerfed. Riiiiiiiight.

Tell ya what, do the Thorn bounty, level the gun, and take it for a spin in Crucible.

RNG has to provide me with the Thorn bounty first. I'm sorry that it hasn't happened yet. I don't have a Mythoclast either. Sad times, right? Why so black and white again? Suddenly I have to have used Thorn to be able to speak about its ability? After saying that I actually like the gun, don't care if it doesn't get nerfed, but am willing to acknowledge that, yes, it is overpowered? You gotta read dude.

If you go on an undisputed, multiple game spanning, run of absolute destruction with it, I'll hear you out.

I do that with my Last Word just fine. And yes, it's overpowered. And no, I don't want it changed, I love the gun, and I love having it used against me and beating me.

But until you actually use the thing, I will hear none of your arguments, because they lack KEY input.

Illogical. I'm actually pretty damn good at Crucible and even Trials. I beat Thorn consistently and get beat by it. Not having used it doesn't preclude me from fully understanding how it works, how it kills me, or how it kills my teammates. It's called being good at the game, and shooters in general. But sure, go all black and white with it. Again, invalidate all other opinions. Peeps be crazy, it's all in dat head, and without actually using the thing (even if it's used against you), your thoughts don't exist lalalala. I guess the original poster, who said they haven't used Thorn since before the buff, also gets no say. Sad day. :(

I suggest that this is where you and I part ways, conversationally.

Historically, we see eye to eye on nothing.

We know how to push each others buttons.

Neither of us is going to sway the other.

Time to move along.

Oh, word. I'm down with that. Just remember, not everything is super black and white, one doesn't need to use a weapon to understand it or recognize how unbalanced it is (and they can do so while loving the weapon and hoping it doesn't change!), and crying about belittlement while actively calling many peoples crazy and telling them that stuff is in their heads is super funny and also super dismissive. But yes, moving along time!

End note: If Bungie nerfs Thorn or tweaks it or balances Hand Cannons in general based on statistically backed up feedback, I hope you remember this conversation. Additionally, if none of what I just said happens, I'll remember this conversation and think to myself, "Well damn, Revenant seems to have been right!"

The one thing I will say is I should have worded the fairness part better. All Exotics are unfair in Destiny, but they're all fairly unfair. By which I mean none of them are totally superior to their alternatives. With the exception of Gjallarhorn, none of the Exotics are higher DPS, they just have strange, unique twists.

Thorn is different in that it's twist is " Does more damage". Which makes it unfairly unfair (in my eyes).

If I get killed by Thorn, 9 times out of 10 it's the impact damage that kills me, not the poison.

And that's fine. I've said so many times that if I'm beaten in a straight shootout (or even a lopsided one) I'm cool with it. If you're better than me I'll be dead, and you'll be alive - that's the entire FPS dynamic.

Agree to disagree, dude.
I'm telling y'all it's all in your head.

I don't understand. Am I supposed to believe that the times I've been postmortemed (or got one - I've been known to pull out Thorn on occasion) didn't happen?

No.

You know when they happen, I know when they happen. It's what makes Thorn unique, it's a bit a Pyrrhic victory a lot of times- You're mad you killed the Thorn user and the poison got you, which is what the Thorn user is wishing for. BUT, it still means you got the kill. Neither of you is technically better off. They killed you, but they were already dead, too.

Of course, I'm being general here and not taking into account team score etc, perhaps that postmortem also happens to be the final kill needed to push his team over the edge to victory- I'm sure it's happened, rarely.

But it doesn't dominate. The magazine isn't large enough that it could devastate a whole team, and not everyone has one. AND, a team that DOES use all Thorns does so at the expense of other weapons, and thus tactical options. I'll be very curious to see it play out on other maps for ToO. Personally, I feel the best counter to a Thorn is simply not being alone.

It's a predator's weapon. Maybe even kamikaze, to an extent...
("If you kill me I'm taking you down with me!")

I didn't get to run much ToO due to schedule, but when I DID play, If I have something that fires faster and staggers my opponent, it was a non issue. My B-Line trauma was fairly useful, in this regard. The games we did play with it, I was already weak when killed with it- poison or not, they could sneeze on me and I'd be dead. VERY, VERY rarely in any crucible match have I been tagged, ducked behind cover, and then had the poison finish me off. When it did, I had already been involved in a firefight, and what can I say? The advantage was theirs, and they took it.

If your argument was "Yeah it does that and I think it's fair" then I'd understand. I'd disagree, but I'd get it. But the argument as far as I understand is "Nah, that doesn't happen, don't be silly. It just gets in your head is all".

When I say "It's in your head" I'm referring to the prevalence or how common the weapon itself is in PVP. Remember, many players will never, ever get the Thorn because the Void PvP step of the bounty is VERY tough for most. If Xur ever sells it, maybe you guys are right, but for now, I see plenty of variety. With Thorn, you just, IDK man, NOTICE it more, because it's so in your face when you get tagged with it.

Maybe it doesn't happen to you, but it happens to me (and others, evidently) frequently. Don't act like it's a non-issue just because it doesn't happen to you. (Also please stop suggesting I "not panic" when I've said multiple times that that's not the problem.)

Again, the general panic. Not you, every time, as an individual. Person is already upset about getting killed by Thorn. They play a game and get shot with it, they get more mad, they make bad decisions. I see it as a cycle, and in terms of ToO, a catalyst to a volatile situation.

Side note: It's also not that I notice Thorn more often. I always know what kills me, because I check the top-right corner.

Many don't. With Thorn, you don't even need to. That, to me, is what makes it more "noticeable" and rage inducing.

The gun is fine for normal play, ToO is what needs some tweaking. The only way for it all to be "fair" is Final Destination, no items, Fox McCloud only.

It doesn't need to be "fair". Few Exotics are. Just let it be a reflection of skill, rather than bridging a skill gap by messing with the fundamental FPS dynamic.

OK, lets touch on that point, RIGHT THERE. -IF- it doesn't need to be "fair", then what, is the point of this, this being mad about Thorn?

Fair is fair, right? Or would that be unfair? If it's a competition, and that is the way to victory, then this is a total, can't beat em join em thing. The people that don't have a Thorn? Tough tits. They know the risks entering that playlist. (And if we continue this path, it will inevitably make some bleeding-heart type cry that they're being excluded. Slippery slope!)

Now, lets touch on point #2:Friend, if you want it to be a true reflection of skill, then it has to devolve, into equal terms on both sides, in all ways, and Destiny ain't that kind of game. That's why people like Snipe and Schooly don't play it- they HATE (and I sympathize) that they can dominate with gun play, only to have a guaranteed super per game kill them, and wipe that perfect score.

SO, when it comes to "fair" and a "true test of skill", it's 100% subjective on what is "fair" and what is "skill".

To make it "fair", you'd have something like this:

• Super Match Making that pits teams equally not only based on RANK, but CLASS (hunter vs hunter, titan vs titan, across all team combinations, YOWZA)
  
• Class abilities would have to be turned off.
  
• Starting weapons would have to be the same.
  
• Special and Heavy weapons would have to be the same.
  
• Grenades would need to be the same, with same timer, or disabled. (To stop crys of flashbang or tripmine abuse)
  
• Supers would need to be disabled. Too game changing in a clutch moment.
  
• more that I can't think of ATM?

You would have to strip SO MUCH out of Destiny to do that, that it just becomes MLG Halo, and if that is the game, then I need to fucking move on because MLG is the lamest shit to ever lame a lame.

IS IRON BANNER the definition of "Fair" in Destiny?

-OR-

IS "MLG Style" the definition of "Fair" in Destiny?

THIS IS MY DILEMMA, and why I postulate that ToO needs to be reworked, rather than Thorn, and weapons like it such as Mythoclast or TLW.

I LOVE elimination style gameplay, but THE VERY NATURE of DESTINY is FRUSTRATING, because ANYTHING can be "cheap" when it comes to elimination. Seriously! Warlock revive? BULLSHIT. DEAD SHOULD BE DEAD. Gunslinger? BULLSHIT. Unfair range, or helmet that gives 4th shot. ETC.

Does that make sense? Do you see what I'm getting at??

We already have Iron Banner, and this is just IB with Skirmish!

My proposal would be just to stop the DoT if the wielder dies - would let a skilled player save themself while still keeping most of it's current usefulness (and still melting people who try to run instead of fight).

And that might be a better solution to Thorn, overall, but on the other side of that coin, then it defeats the mythos of that gun, which frankly, is one of the most unique things that Destiny has going for it, that Destiny does right.

HOPEFULLY, that all made sense. I feel like I understand your side,FWIW.

I will say that Mythoclast is destroying me since they re-buffed it. It's incredible to see. Apparently it has its own drawbacks due to limited ammo and the way the bullets travel which doesn't work well with laggy situations, but since I don't have one all I ever see is the business end of the gun. :(

I just feel like it's being dismissed unfairly as an argument (and considering I actually have no issue with the rest of Thorn, I feel like it's not an extreme argument).

If your argument was "Yeah it does that and I think it's fair" then I'd understand. I'd disagree, but I'd get it. But the argument as far as I understand is "Nah, that doesn't happen, don't be silly. It just gets in your head is all".

As much as I think it is entirely possible, I don't think it's happened to me a lot. Most of the times I outshoot a Thorn user, if I do it fast enough, I escape with a sliver of health. I don't recall dying to the DoT on 1v1s. Not saying it doesn't help the kill, hell, it does a good part of the job, but I don't recall not dying to a shot unless there were others whittling down my health as well.

My point is, basically, that it might be possible he has never really experienced this event. Not trying to disprove any of you nor argue that Thorn isn't damn powerful.

Like you said, grenades are a choice and they come at the cost of being able to keep firing. The same applies to melee abilities. Thorn is Guaranteed DoT available at all times and alll ranges, with no cooldown.

#seriouslynerfexotichandcannons

If I get killed by Thorn, 9 times out of 10 it's the impact damage that kills me, not the poison.

And that's fine. I've said so many times that if I'm beaten in a straight shootout (or even a lopsided one) I'm cool with it. If you're better than me I'll be dead, and you'll be alive - that's the entire FPS dynamic.

Agree to disagree, dude.
I'm telling y'all it's all in your head.

I don't understand. Am I supposed to believe that the times I've been postmortemed (or got one - I've been known to pull out Thorn on occasion) didn't happen?

If your argument was "Yeah it does that and I think it's fair" then I'd understand. I'd disagree, but I'd get it. But the argument as far as I understand is "Nah, that doesn't happen, don't be silly. It just gets in your head is all".

Maybe it doesn't happen to you, but it happens to me (and others, evidently) frequently. Don't act like it's a non-issue just because it doesn't happen to you. (Also please stop suggesting I "not panic" when I've said multiple times that that's not the problem.)

Side note: It's also not that I notice Thorn more often. I always know what kills me, because I check the top-right corner.

The gun is fine for normal play, ToO is what needs some tweaking. The only way for it all to be "fair" is Final Destination, no items, Fox McCloud only.

It doesn't need to be "fair". Few Exotics are. Just let it be a reflection of skill, rather than bridging a skill gap by messing with the fundamental FPS dynamic.

My proposal would be just to stop the DoT if the wielder dies - would let a skilled player save themself while still keeping most of it's current usefulness (and still melting people who try to run instead of fight).

In a high tension ToO match, the stakes are high, you're on edge, trying to win. You get hit with the poison and it makes you panic. THAT, is how it beats you. Well, if you are the same level that is :P[/size]

No. I kill the man. He's dead because I got the jump on him, or outmaneuvred him, or because I have better aim. Or even just because I got lucky. He's already dead and I've won the fight. And then I die, because lingering damage lets him kill me despite my performance being better than his.

So I'm staying out of this argument for the most part, but this piece makes me wonder:

Are you saying that ANY kill that happens AFTER YOU DIE is inherently unfair... or JUST Thorn kills?

That is: if I know I'm outgunned, and I believe I'm going to die, I'll often throw a grenade at the end of a fight, even though doing so means I don't get in one or two more shots (which might have succeeded in killing my opponent) - because I KNOW that the grenade damage will kill him after I'm dead. I'm okay with this - it's a choice I've made. Is this unfair?

If it's not, why not?

That's the biggest thing. Yes, I think hand cannons in general are a bit OP, but I can deal with them in general. But Thorns ability to kill you after you outgunned your opponent is such BS.

On a side note, in terms of range I think it should go shotgun-handcannon-auto rifle-pulse rifle-scout rifle-sniper

I would actually say it should go:
Shotgun->Auto Rifle->Hand Cannon->Pulse rifle->Scout rifle->Sniper

You're all crazy.

If I get killed by Thorn, 9 times out of 10 it's the impact damage that kills me, not the poison.

The poison only gets me if I've already taken damage from somewhere else.

Enemy player A shoots me, but I kill him.

Enemy player B hits me once with Thorn, and it finishes me off. Or I try to run around the corner, and then the poison gets me, because I was already weakened.

9 times out of 10, eh? I don't buy it. Thorn's impact is rarely what kills me or the people I play with. You were willing to go so far as to blame an entire game type above. You were dead wrong years ago about Boltshot. You have a bad track record in weapon balancing convos. Pretty sure the people in this thread aren't crazy.

Agree to disagree, dude.

I'm telling y'all it's all in your head.

The gun is fine for normal play, ToO is what needs some tweaking. The only way for it all to be "fair" is Final Destination, no items, Fox McCloud only.

It's been this way without Trials. Again, at this point I'm convinced that you mostly have no idea what you're talking about.

Maybe we all need to go in and play some games and record how many times we get killed by it ;)

My whole crew did last night while openly discussing this thread. I nearly recorded about 11 videos backing my point and others' here for you, but I decided, and I think your post backs my decision, that it's not worth the time.

Why you do this? You play this game, where you "agree" with me on something, and then attempt to belittle me. On point:

Dude, you and I don't see eye to eye on anything, and I was "dead wrong" about the boltshot, eh?

Not in a million years.

343 did what 343 likes to do, which is try to please everyone, thus pleasing no one. So when the most vocal of complainers piss and moan that the BS needed to change, they did it to appease what player base they have left. For all I try to defend them with, they have a -terrible- habit of not doing what they say, and not saying what they mean. "14 day buy and play" comes to mind.

It wasn't because the gun was broken, you doofus, if was to keep their crumbling population for crumbling further.

"We heard your cries and agree, the boltshot is OP and needs to be tweaked!" really meant "Please don't stop playing our game! We'll do whatever you want! Just play!"

Thorn.

In a previous post you mention you haven't even used Thorn yourself... So how, exactly, is that supposed to make your points, uh...valid?

Oh, you get killed with it a lot? So that must make you qualified enough to say it needs to be nerfed. Riiiiiiiight.

Tell ya what, do the Thorn bounty, level the gun, and take it for a spin in Crucible.

If you go on an undisputed, multiple game spanning, run of absolute destruction with it, I'll hear you out.

But until you actually use the thing, I will hear none of your arguments, because they lack KEY input.

I suggest that this is where you and I part ways, conversationally.

Historically, we see eye to eye on nothing.

We know how to push each others buttons.

Neither of us is going to sway the other.

Time to move along.

You're all crazy.

If I get killed by Thorn, 9 times out of 10 it's the impact damage that kills me, not the poison.

The poison only gets me if I've already taken damage from somewhere else.

Enemy player A shoots me, but I kill him.

Enemy player B hits me once with Thorn, and it finishes me off. Or I try to run around the corner, and then the poison gets me, because I was already weakened.

9 times out of 10, eh? I don't buy it. Thorn's impact is rarely what kills me or the people I play with. You were willing to go so far as to blame an entire game type above. You were dead wrong years ago about Boltshot. You have a bad track record in weapon balancing convos. Pretty sure the people in this thread aren't crazy.

Agree to disagree, dude.

I'm telling y'all it's all in your head.

The gun is fine for normal play, ToO is what needs some tweaking. The only way for it all to be "fair" is Final Destination, no items, Fox McCloud only.

It's been this way without Trials. Again, at this point I'm convinced that you mostly have no idea what you're talking about.

Maybe we all need to go in and play some games and record how many times we get killed by it ;)

My whole crew did last night while openly discussing this thread. I nearly recorded about 11 videos backing my point and others' here for you, but I decided, and I think your post backs my decision, that it's not worth the time.

If I get killed by Thorn, 9 times out of 10 it's the impact damage that kills me, not the poison.

The poison only gets me if I've already taken damage from somewhere else.

Enemy player A shoots me, but I kill him.

Enemy player B hits me once with Thorn, and it finishes me off. Or I try to run around the corner, and then the poison gets me, because I was already weakened.

Agree to disagree, dude.

I'm telling y'all it's all in your head.

The gun is fine for normal play, ToO is what needs some tweaking. The only way for it all to be "fair" is Final Destination, no items, Fox McCloud only.

Maybe we all need to go in and play some games and record how many times we get killed by it ;)

On a side note, in terms of range I think it should go shotgun-handcannon-auto rifle-pulse rifle-scout rifle-sniper

I'm pretty sure any Damage over Time effect, like Touch of Flame will play all the way out regardless if you die or not though... as long as it starts before you die.

Nope. I played as a Sunsinger enough last iron banner to know this isn't the case.