But I understand better. I thought you were suggesting ToO didn't count as PvP somehow, which confused me.

Don't lock content behind PvP.

It is a mistake to tie that statement with ToO. But as it is clear, we shall agree to disagree.

- M

Why is it a mistake? And what's clear? I could understand disagreeing with the sentiment, but ToO is PvP and it acts as a gate to some content, so I'm not sure why the statement doesn't apply regardless.

That statement ties to the sentiment, so therefore we disagree!! I don't share that sentiment so therefore the statement doesn't work for me.

The idea of 'locking' content is too broad a brush. It gets overused nowadays in matters that don't even approach something like "Raise the alarms! Someone is being robbed!"

To bring this back to the real world - do you agree that every child that plays in little league deserves a trophy at the end of the season? Even the children that were on the team in last place?

And please I'm not comparing us to little league players in terms of maturity - I'm just using a common example of win:prize::lose:bupkis.

- M

Don't lock content behind PvP.

It is a mistake to tie that statement with ToO. But as it is clear, we shall agree to disagree.

- M

Why is it a mistake? And what's clear? I could understand disagreeing with the sentiment, but ToO is PvP and it acts as a gate to some content, so I'm not sure why the statement doesn't apply regardless.

I would say "what's up with this" is that on one hand, it means some members of this community are noble and thoughtful, perhaps to a fault. And o the other hand, it caters to crybabies.

To a fault - yes. Though I don't cosider it any serious lapse. Mind you there is no relation between 'I'm a good person and wish folks good things' and "I want to win that prize.' Two completely seperate ideals that can (and do) safely co-exist side by side in most folk's mind.

Yes, that means some people will never, ever see the lighthouse via competitive play. (Perhaps there are other ways to get there in the future).

If in the future means when the game is old and no longer any big deal, sure.

We should all get our Ozymandias moment, in a weird way.

In fact, you are BETTER for getting to see it, and wanting others to see it too, as opposed to being dicks about it (neener neener I are gud u r teh suk).

A corollary - this is why I'll never tea-bag a random person I play against, unless they're being a supreme burrito asshole. But that is very very rare.

Enjoy your reward.

My reward has been playing hundreds of hours both alone and with dear friends, in a game that is spectacularly crafted. Everything else re: this game is a construct I, and only I, am a creator of and can determine how much sway it has over my life. That's it, case-closed.

- m

Losing ToO is the opposite of fun. Winning ToO means withholding fun from someone else.

Im going to keep playing ToO because I want to see the Lighthouse. I don't care about the Emblem or the Elemental Primaries, but I want to see The Lighthouse first hand. More than anything, I want that Grimoire card. Im going to get there eventually - If I can go 9-2 with no buffs I can go 7-1 with them. But Im not certain Im going to always have fun along the way, and yes, Im going to feel bad knowing that at least some of the people I beat are going to miss out on a cool place because they're "undeserving".

Course, if Bungie opens the Lighthouse up to tourists (look, but don't touch) on Bungie day or in a later expansion, I'd be sated. I dont need the stuff, I just want the experience (and for others to get to have it too).

Edit: Just seen the above from Rev. I think the competition is the issue for me. Guns and emblems etc. are rewards. I don't mind people not getting rewards if they don't earn them. But an actual, physical space to explore? That's content (to me. Personal opinion, small distinction, YMMV caveat). Don't lock content behind PvP.

Not trying to be an asshole (believe me, Kermit, Louis Wu and others can attest I can be an asshole with very very little effort) but I see now that Bungie could've held off much of the teeth gnashing months ago from their users if they explicitly stated when engrams decrypt, the results are pulled from a pool that all other players at that moment are sharing.

Don't lock content behind PvP.

It is a mistake to tie that statement with ToO. But as it is clear, we shall agree to disagree.

- M

And It's okay that we disagree... It's just a video game, after all.

Exactly :)

Thank you for putting a point on the fine line between being *here* and being 'there*.

- m

Let them cry.

Enjoy your reward.

Sorry, but I'm just not that kind of person.

"I don't want to be happy"

-CyberKN

I want everyone to be happy. This is impossible, but Im still allowed to want it.

And It's okay that we disagree... It's just a video game, after all.

Exactly :)

Civil discourse!

Let them cry.

Enjoy your reward.

Sorry, but I'm just not that kind of person.

"I don't want to be happy"

-CyberKN

And It's okay that we disagree... It's just a video game, after all.

Exactly :)

Im going to keep playing ToO because I want to see the Lighthouse. I don't care about the Emblem or the Elemental Primaries, but I want to see The Lighthouse first hand. More than anything, I want that Grimoire card. Im going to get there eventually - If I can go 9-2 with no buffs I can go 7-1 with them. But Im not certain Im going to always have fun along the way, and yes, Im going to feel bad knowing that at least some of the people I beat are going to miss out on a cool place because they're "undeserving".

Course, if Bungie opens the Lighthouse up to tourists (look, but don't touch) on Bungie day or in a later expansion, I'd be sated. I dont need the stuff, I just want the experience (and for others to get to have it too).

Edit: Just seen the above from Rev. I think the competition is the issue for me. Guns and emblems etc. are rewards. I don't mind people not getting rewards if they don't earn them. But an actual, physical space to explore? That's content (to me. Personal opinion, small distinction, YMMV caveat). Don't lock content behind PvP.

Let them cry.

Enjoy your reward.

Sorry, but I'm just not that kind of person.

And It's okay that we disagree... It's just a video game, after all.

If it was a normal playlist I'd be all over it.

I was thinking the same thing myself, although I think Bungie's raid-logic might apply here as well. Elimination gametypes can be uber-punishing. Going in to such a playlist with randoms could easily become more frustrating than fun. Perhaps keeping it to a mode that requires a full fireteam is the way to go.

I think my issue comes down to this - having been on the receiving end of a losing spree, it sucks to think that sometimes I'm causing that, because it was awful and demoralising.

Cyber was saying very similar things while we played last night; that it was difficult to enjoy each victory because it was coming at the expense of someone else. We knocked out several teams over the course of our run (4, I think), and every time it happened we all stopped talking. It's like we all got hit by this little pang of guilt, and needed to give a brief moment of respect to each team we eliminated.

Which is quite fascinating, really. Never had a videogame make me feel that way.

Having thought about it, It's the reward that gets me.

If we were just competing for gear and etheric light, I wouldn't have an issue with it. But the Lighthouse area is SO. DAMN. GORGEOUS, and it's really a shame Bungie locked it away behind such a herculean task in a PvP mode.

Everyone should get to experience that place, Skilled or no.

I shake my head sometimes when I'm reading posts here, but this whole thread just about made my head pop out of its socket.

Everyone should get to experience that place, Skilled or no.

No. Emphatic no. It's enough that Bungie has bent itself backwards with this latest patch to satisfy all the folks that are out there with outstretched hands, pleading 'gimme, gimme, gimme.' It's basically raining engrams and coins and dildoes, and now folks are feeling 'guilt' that the one thing Bungie offers to folks that persevere and succeed is denied to folks that do *not* persevere and succeed!??!?!? OMG WHAT THE FUCK?

Do I *really* need to explain why?

- m

p.s. My warlock has not seen this lighthouse place, and he may never see it. C'est la vie.

Ditto.

I didn't want to post it but I'm glad you did, because I agree. And I got destroyed when I played. So I'll add to it.

--------

TO THE PEOPLE THAT FEEL BAD:

It is a competition.

Competitions have winners, and losers.

Not everyone can be a winner.

If everyone is a winner, then it is not a competition.

Then the rewards are trivial and pointless.

Yes, that means some people will never, ever see the lighthouse via competitive play. (Perhaps there are other ways to get there in the future).

No, you are not a bad person for getting to see it.

In fact, you are BETTER for getting to see it, and wanting others to see it too, as opposed to being dicks about it (neener neener I are gud u r teh suk).

Yes, that will make certain people sad and they will cry.

Let them cry.

Enjoy your reward.

If it was a normal playlist I'd be all over it.

I was thinking the same thing myself, although I think Bungie's raid-logic might apply here as well. Elimination gametypes can be uber-punishing. Going in to such a playlist with randoms could easily become more frustrating than fun. Perhaps keeping it to a mode that requires a full fireteam is the way to go.

I think my issue comes down to this - having been on the receiving end of a losing spree, it sucks to think that sometimes I'm causing that, because it was awful and demoralising.

Cyber was saying very similar things while we played last night; that it was difficult to enjoy each victory because it was coming at the expense of someone else. We knocked out several teams over the course of our run (4, I think), and every time it happened we all stopped talking. It's like we all got hit by this little pang of guilt, and needed to give a brief moment of respect to each team we eliminated.

Which is quite fascinating, really. Never had a videogame make me feel that way.

Having thought about it, It's the reward that gets me.

If we were just competing for gear and etheric light, I wouldn't have an issue with it. But the Lighthouse area is SO. DAMN. GORGEOUS, and it's really a shame Bungie locked it away behind such a herculean task in a PvP mode.

Everyone should get to experience that place, Skilled or no.

I shake my head sometimes when I'm reading posts here, but this whole thread just about made my head pop out of its socket.

Everyone should get to experience that place, Skilled or no.

No. Emphatic no. It's enough that Bungie has bent itself backwards with this latest patch to satisfy all the folks that are out there with outstretched hands, pleading 'gimme, gimme, gimme.' It's basically raining engrams and coins and dildoes, and now folks are feeling 'guilt' that the one thing Bungie offers to folks that persevere and succeed is denied to folks that do *not* persevere and succeed!??!?!? OMG WHAT THE FUCK?

Do I *really* need to explain why?

- m

p.s. My warlock has not seen this lighthouse place, and he may never see it. C'est la vie.