I LOVE the way you move around in Destiny. I love the feel of the guns. Those elements are FANTASTIC. They are also dramatically smoother and better than the movement and guns of Warframe, IMO.

That right there. That is the core that makes Destiny gameplay so much fun, not your definition of gameplay, which is a bucket for everything you dislike about Destiny. This is why I find your 3/10 score preposterous.

This is the thing I love about Bungie. They take a particular aspect of gaming and release a game and when you use that aspect of the game you say to yourself "EVERY other game has been doing this wrong until now." I felt that way about shields and multi-player game flow in Halo. All games before Halo were twitch fests and I hated it.

I LOVE the way you move around in Destiny. I love the feel of the guns. Those elements are FANTASTIC. They are also dramatically smoother and better than the movement and guns of Warframe, IMO.

That right there. That is the core that makes Destiny gameplay so much fun, not your definition of gameplay, which is a bucket for everything you dislike about Destiny. This is why I find your 3/10 score preposterous.

It's as if 30-40% of their work goes into some direction I can't perceive.

That actually might be true. If the "comet" thing does exist, there must be some people working on it. Might even be the majority of the staff if it's as (comparatively) big as the rumors suggest. And who knows what else they might have people assigned to.

When you first start though? Yeah, little rough.

It's like what if the Mako was a person, but didn't have a huge gun, and couldn't climb mountains.

So you're saying Destiny::Warframe what Mako::Getting out of the Mako?

That's pretty accurate, actually. Inside the Mako you have fun movement and a great gun, but you're stuck on that one world and you can't go into any buildings and you can only do missions that are "kill some dudes." Outside of the Mako you can talk to people, do more complex missions, get back on your ship and fly to other worlds, use 2 guns (and a sword in Warframe) and your class "magic" powers, and engage in trade and crafting.

--

I LOVE the way you move around in Destiny. I love the feel of the guns. Those elements are FANTASTIC. They are also dramatically smoother and better than the movement and guns of Warframe, IMO.

BUT, Warframe has more game there. A lot more. And it has a lot more to do, and doing those things is a lot less repetitive. And while the gunplay isn't as smooth as Destiny, it's still present and varied. The enemies are more tactical. The melee is dramatically better and more in depth. The crafting is great. And - huge - the loot system is much more progress oriented than RNG-based.

Get out of the tutorial, finish acquiring all of the components of your Liset, and tell me you aren't suddenly drowning in things to do. When I first understood the scope and scale of Warframe, it was overwhelming.

I'm terrible with dates. All I know is that when I google the release date for both games, I get:
Destiny: September 9, 2014
Warframe: October 24, 2012

Oh man, you're right. PS4 Warframe came out later than PC, it seems. I just learned a thing! Warframe on PS4: November 15, 2013. So the game was more than a year old before it hit consoles. I didn't know that.

That date's a bit misleading. That's when the closed Alpha was first released. Warframe's "release" is muddy territory, since the PS4 release was still early Beta. Destiny had been in development longer, I think, given the hint dropped in ODST. Still, the comment regarding comparison of "age" can be interpreted fairly well during any stage of Warframe's release. I played it roughly around release, and at that point I saw potential, but was mostly disappointed in the game. Six months later (U12, I think), it was a completely different game, with major overhauls and additions. Destiny is sold as "content complete" and seven months down the road has less content than a free "Beta" had at that point.

All I was saying is that that is a fair chunk of time to learn how to do this type of game better. To improve it. Warframe has a lot of experience under it's belt, Destiny doesn't.

But Bungie has a lot of experience with FPS games under their belt, and lots of things they got right in the Halo games they got wrong in Destiny (see my above rant post if you can stand it without your eyes bleeding or anything).

I'm glad you still have faith, but I think I'm burned on Destiny.

Being burned on a game is the fault of both the game designer and the user. I am a little burned myself, but that doesn't mean that Destiny is a bad game.

I'm not burned out entirely, but Destiny has become extremely stale because objectively speaking, there isn't much to do. I enjoy it, but it's discouraging when Bungie stalls for over half a year before releasing pieces of what people could consider vital options and simple fixes (such as audio and colorblind settings). The reason people use Warframe as an example is because at any seven-month timeframe of its existence, it has made far greater strides than Destiny has. Heck, literally every single major update (We're on 16 now) has added far more content, tweaks, and fixes than Destiny has in its entire existence (no hyperbole, pick any update and look through the notes).
Bungie is a far bigger team with a far bigger budget, and the changes and content have been a pittance in comparison. And we're paying $20 per sad content package (that said, I do feel like I've gotten my money's worth of fun from TDB, but that fun well ran dry, whereas Warframe has challenges that I've yet to tackle, or that I've tried to tackle but simply couldn't overcome).

I don't think it's a bad game. I think it has bad gameplay. Overall I think it's a 7/10, but the game mechanics, specifically, are bad.

For Destiny 2, I'll be taking a wait-and-see approach. I just hope they don't do something like give pre-orders a sweet gun that you will never be able to get if you wait to see how the game is before buying it.

I still preorder games that I have faith in, and Destiny was a great foundation for the franchise. It's too bad it's basically JUST a foundation.

I understand your reason to wait and see. I also really don't like the whole "buy this early and get this" or "Buy for this console and get this" but again, as I mentioned before, I hate marketing.

We agree! (about marketing).

Yup.

Meaning, it's a subjective case. Because Destiny has a fabulous core (i.e. movement, shooting, art direction, music, sound) I'm always excited for what comes next.

And then I'm surprised by Bungie's under-delivery. I swear I don't mean that to be a super-negative; more, I typically can't believe they haven't done more with all the potential of what they've got.

What in the hell are they working on? It's as if 30-40% of their work goes into some direction I can't perceive.

But, I still have faith that better things will come. When that's gone, it's time to let it go.

I'm terrible with dates. All I know is that when I google the release date for both games, I get:
Destiny: September 9, 2014
Warframe: October 24, 2012

Oh man, you're right. PS4 Warframe came out later than PC, it seems. I just learned a thing! Warframe on PS4: November 15, 2013. So the game was more than a year old before it hit consoles. I didn't know that.

All I was saying is that that is a fair chunk of time to learn how to do this type of game better. To improve it. Warframe has a lot of experience under it's belt, Destiny doesn't.

But Bungie has a lot of experience with FPS games under their belt, and lots of things they got right in the Halo games they got wrong in Destiny (see my above rant post if you can stand it without your eyes bleeding or anything).

I'm glad you still have faith, but I think I'm burned on Destiny.

Being burned on a game is the fault of both the game designer and the user. I am a little burned myself, but that doesn't mean that Destiny is a bad game.

I don't think it's a bad game. I think it has bad gameplay. Overall I think it's a 7/10, but the game mechanics, specifically, are bad.

For Destiny 2, I'll be taking a wait-and-see approach. I just hope they don't do something like give pre-orders a sweet gun that you will never be able to get if you wait to see how the game is before buying it.

I understand your reason to wait and see. I also really don't like the whole "buy this early and get this" or "Buy for this console and get this" but again, as I mentioned before, I hate marketing.

We agree! (about marketing).

I just finished reading this entire thread and my overall vibe I'm getting from it is that your faith in Destiny is lost and you have found a better game to play instead. I get that. What I don't get is how you title the thread like you are trying to improve Destiny, but what it sounds like to me is you are looking to convert people to Warframe.

I understand that you love the game you play. But I'm getting some serious Warframe elitest vibes. This is how I feel. Personally, I think if you really care about how badly Bungie is doing with Destiny, you should really be telling all of this to them.

I'm sorry it comes off as elitist. I'm trying to share that there's a game out there that is shockingly similar to destiny in premise and which delivers what I believe is a dramatically better gameplay experience. I want people to check it out so that they can join in asking Bungie to improve Destiny. I want Bungie to check it out so that they can steal the elements that work so well.

I'm just glad you have a passion for it.

Personally, I think Bungie knows what is wrong with their game. And when I say "what is wrong" I mean what is actually broken. I feel like a lot of people are complaining about Destiny because it's not what they expected/wanted. Bungie made they game they wanted to make. They are still evolving the game that way. They have hit some bumps along the way.

The fault for Destiny being not what I expected lies squarely at the feet of the marketing people who broke promises left and right in the hype-up to the game's launch.

I hate marketing. But I also understand it's a necessary evil.

From advertisements with "game footage" that isn't actually part of the game to statements during interviews of "if you see a mountain in the distance, you can go there" to "every item will tell a story" the game has failed to deliver on these things. "Build your legend" is an absurd tagline for a game where the legend of running Vault of Glass 20+ times and still not having a Fatebringer or Mytoclast is not a good legend. It's more of a cautionary tale, I'd say.

Technically, every item does tell a story, it's just one sentence long :)

Also, Bungie does ground braking games. I love them for it. But I have to say, Destiny was a huge bite in ground braking games. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't really think of a decent MMO game that also has PvP (at least good).

Also, you're comparing Destiny's PvP to MMOs when I feel like it should be compared to FPSes. CoD and Titanfall are both investment game FPSes and they blow Destiny's PvP out of the water in both play, netcode, and available game modes. I'm not personally a fan of Battlefield, but I know many people who would claim that smokes Destiny as well.

I specifically mentioned this because Destiny is an MMO that has PvP. That is what makes it unique. It's hard to compare it to any other FPS PvP specifically because it is affected by it's PvE components. We have all experienced this in Destiny. That is why it's so amazing that it works so well. You just can't compare it against other games PvP to PvP it has to be across the board.

And no one mentions the fact that Destiny is YOUNG. I would love for Destiny to be compared to Warframe at the age Destiny is at now. Or compare Destiny that is two years older to a current Warframe.

I didn't play warframe until about a month ago, so I can't speak to that. I do know that it's only a year older than Destiny though, not two. Also, they've never charged for an expansion - so all of the updates and changes are free to all. Destiny has actually taken away content from people who didn't buy the xpacs because they don't always have access to the Nightfall missions (when it's the Omnigul mission, for example) or the daily mission or whatnot when they're CE-related. It gave them more vendor items, true, so it may be a wash in the end - but that still seems pretty crappy to me.

I love Destiny for what it is. I know that it still needs time to mature and stabilize. But frankly, all MMO's do.

I enjoyed Destiny for a while, then I played more because I enjoyed my friends' company in the game. But I think I've always been salty because I feel like the press before launch lied to me, and I pre-ordered based on those lies. I've learned my lesson and will never pre-order another game again. I don't lay the blame for that squarely on Destiny, either. There have been several high-profile games in the last few years that failed to deliver on the pre-launch hype.

I'm terrible with dates. All I know is that when I google the release date for both games, I get:
Destiny: September 9, 2014
Warframe: October 24, 2012

All I was saying is that that is a fair chunk of time to learn how to do this type of game better. To improve it. Warframe has a lot of experience under it's belt, Destiny doesn't.

I'm glad you still have faith, but I think I'm burned on Destiny.

Being burned on a game is the fault of both the game designer and the user. I am a little burned myself, but that doesn't mean that Destiny is a bad game.

For Destiny 2, I'll be taking a wait-and-see approach. I just hope they don't do something like give pre-orders a sweet gun that you will never be able to get if you wait to see how the game is before buying it.

I understand your reason to wait and see. I also really don't like the whole "buy this early and get this" or "Buy for this console and get this" but again, as I mentioned before, I hate marketing.

I just finished reading this entire thread and my overall vibe I'm getting from it is that your faith in Destiny is lost and you have found a better game to play instead. I get that. What I don't get is how you title the thread like you are trying to improve Destiny, but what it sounds like to me is you are looking to convert people to Warframe.

I understand that you love the game you play. But I'm getting some serious Warframe elitest vibes. This is how I feel. Personally, I think if you really care about how badly Bungie is doing with Destiny, you should really be telling all of this to them.

I'm sorry it comes off as elitist. I'm trying to share that there's a game out there that is shockingly similar to destiny in premise and which delivers what I believe is a dramatically better gameplay experience. I want people to check it out so that they can join in asking Bungie to improve Destiny. I want Bungie to check it out so that they can steal the elements that work so well.

Personally, I think Bungie knows what is wrong with their game. And when I say "what is wrong" I mean what is actually broken. I feel like a lot of people are complaining about Destiny because it's not what they expected/wanted. Bungie made they game they wanted to make. They are still evolving the game that way. They have hit some bumps along the way.

The fault for Destiny being not what I expected lies squarely at the feet of the marketing people who broke promises left and right in the hype-up to the game's launch. From advertisements with "game footage" that isn't actually part of the game to statements during interviews of "if you see a mountain in the distance, you can go there" to "every item will tell a story" the game has failed to deliver on these things. "Build your legend" is an absurd tagline for a game where the legend of running Vault of Glass 20+ times and still not having a Fatebringer or Mytoclast is not a good legend. It's more of a cautionary tale, I'd say.

Also, Bungie does ground braking games. I love them for it. But I have to say, Destiny was a huge bite in ground braking games. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't really think of a decent MMO game that also has PvP (at least good).

Destiny is ground breaking in a lot of ways. Technically it's very well executed. Fireteam joining, mission chaining, the way patrol mode works... it's all great. The PvP used to be fun for me, true, but has grown stale with limited game modes, TTKs that boil down to who has the better connection to the server, and weird weird netcode lag deaths and kills. Also, you're comparing Destiny's PvP to MMOs when I feel like it should be compared to FPSes. CoD and Titanfall are both investment game FPSes and they blow Destiny's PvP out of the water in both play, netcode, and available game modes. I'm not personally a fan of Battlefield, but I know many people who would claim that smokes Destiny as well.

And no one mentions the fact that Destiny is YOUNG. I would love for Destiny to be compared to Warframe at the age Destiny is at now. Or compare Destiny that is two years older to a current Warframe.

I didn't play warframe until about a month ago, so I can't speak to that. I do know that it's only a year older than Destiny though, not two. Also, they've never charged for an expansion - so all of the updates and changes are free to all. Destiny has actually taken away content from people who didn't buy the xpacs because they don't always have access to the Nightfall missions (when it's the Omnigul mission, for example) or the daily mission or whatnot when they're CE-related. It gave them more vendor items, true, so it may be a wash in the end - but that still seems pretty crappy to me.

I love Destiny for what it is. I know that it still needs time to mature and stabilize. But frankly, all MMO's do.

I enjoyed Destiny for a while, then I played more because I enjoyed my friends' company in the game. But I think I've always been salty because I feel like the press before launch lied to me, and I pre-ordered based on those lies. I've learned my lesson and will never pre-order another game again. I don't lay the blame for that squarely on Destiny, either. There have been several high-profile games in the last few years that failed to deliver on the pre-launch hype.

I'm glad you still have faith, but I think I'm burned on Destiny. For Destiny 2, I'll be taking a wait-and-see approach. I just hope they don't do something like give pre-orders a sweet gun that you will never be able to get if you wait to see how the game is before buying it.

Warframe's graphics and such didn't move me, but I can accept a different asthetic. I absolutely hate the ship voice, but I probably could deal with it.

Fair points, but you almost never talk to the ship. I'm not sure if you can turn his chatter off, but you may be able to do that. There's lots of unexpected options.

The main turnoff is that there are all theses fantastic classes and you can't play any of them without paying.

False. You buy the blueprint for the final product from the market. Find the blue prints for the components in the game world. Farm the materials for those components. Assemble the whole thing, and bam, you've got your fantastic class. It takes a while (I'm about to finish building my first one), but it also takes a while to level a class to 30, which you'll always want to do in order to maximize your mastery rank.

You can only die three times without paying.

False. You can self-ressurrect 4 times per day per warframe without paying. I've only run out of self-res once. You can die an infinite number of times, but once out of self-res you either need an ally to revive you or you can no longer contribute to the mission (and, once everyone dies, the mission fails).

You missed out on all this gear from events that happened before you played the game.

My understanding is that there are basically only 6 items that can no longer be acquired in some way and none of them are must-haves. And these aren't available in the game at all - regardless of how much real money you want to spend.

Neverwinter is the same way. There is a huge gear/time hurdle to get into the game. Time I've already invested into Destiny. Is Warframe that much better that I should shuck it all and switch?

Right now the answer is no. In the future it might change. But the same points people make about Warframe improving over time also applies to Destiny, if at a lower frequency due to the slower update cycle on the big time games.

Warframe is F2P, so it has a whole different model that requires those constant updates to work. Destiny is the other way around, they get money up front and have a long term investment strategy.

The only thing you have to pay for is cosmetic options above and beyond the initial (but still versatile) color palette, or if you want your warframe to have a tail or wings or something. And, really, you don't have to pay money for these things because there are people who will trade you the "real money" currency in the game for certain rare items you've acquired and/or leveled up on your own.

For example, I have yet to pay any actual money to the game (though I will, because I feel like they've earned my cash at this point), and I'm about to build the Nyx warframe, I just completed my Latron scout rifle (which will be my 3rd primary weapon), and I've got several swords (and one giant axe) in reserve. I'm also nearly done building my Odonata warframe (the Archwing for space combat!).

Sure, it takes longer to buy a blueprint and then search out the materials for an item than it does to spend $ and buy the item outright, but it's great to say "I want item X. That means I need materials A, B, and C, which I can get from any mission on planets P, Q, R, or S. Time to start playing missions on those worlds!" But I'm having a ton of fun just unlocking more worlds and farming up the mats I need to build new stuff. Farming isn't really the right word, because it's not like I'm playing the same mission over and over. It's almost always new missions for me. It will take a really, really long time before I've totally unlocked everything and will have to replay something.

What is it about Destiny enemy AI that bothers you. Are other games any better? What could Bungie improve and how?

I feel like the enemy AI is more of a scripted "run to location X and stay there while doing your pre-scripted behavior" than actual AI, looking at the player, the environment, and figuring out where cover is, coordinating when to press the attack vs. when to hide, calling for help, etc..

I'll use the Omnigul strike as an example. Every single time you run the strike, the encounters are identical. There's always snipers on those three crates. The shanks always spawn in the same places and move right towards you. Get past that point and the wizards always bob and weave behind the big column. The thrall around the corner always sits there until you shoot him or walk past him, etc etc. There's nothing dynamic at all about the AI, and none of it is pro-active. It's all reactive.

Dregs (and Acolytes, which appear to have identical AI) hide behind cover and periodically lean out and shoot you.
Captains stand right in the middle until you shoot them and then they immediately blink to a side.
Wizards bob and weave back and forth, back and forth. They hide if you pop their shields, then go back to bobbin' and weavin'.
Thralls have the "best" AI and that's simply because it makes the most sense. They charge you unless you pop a super and then they back up to hide a bit. Everything about the AI in the game is 100% predictable. That's what makes it bad.

In Halo, the grunts ran right at you, but if you killed one of them sometimes the others would panic and run. The big guys would find cover to shoot from, but if there were 2 or more, one would move to flank you while the other laid down suppressing fire. Grenades would come at you "out of nowhere" because the enemy was smart enough to throw them over barriers at where you were, rather than having to have line of sight on you before throwing as in Destiny. The enemies would hop in vehicles and attack you (instead of only spawning in vehicles and then just leaving empty ones on the ground and ignoring them as in Destiny).

Halo also used the different enemy types to much greater advantage, putting tough melee guys in the front during an encounter and then also having snipers trying to take you out at the same time. In destiny, you're usually put in situations where you're able to clear the snipers before any other enemies are even close enough to distract you. Maybe they get you the first time, but once you know where they are, they're always going to be there and you can take them out with ease.

Basically Halo AI felt much more dynamic, a bit more like bots rather than scripted, mindless targets. Destiny feels like, instead of good AI, they just game "tough" enemies more health and damage to make up for predictable and exploitable behavior.

Halo 2 and 3 also got even more verbs for the AI to perform, from kicking you out of the vehicle you're driving to trying to run you over rather than just shoot. Sure, your allies were awful, but the point is that you're the best soldier in the realm, not that you get to sit back while your dudes kill everyone.

TL;DR awful ally AI makes you feel powerful. Awful enemy AI makes the encounters boring. A game whose main "hook" is replaying missions for chances at loot should have more replay value in its AI.

I understand that you love the game you play. But I'm getting some serious Warframe elitest vibes. This is how I feel. Personally, I think if you really care about how badly Bungie is doing with Destiny, you should really be telling all of this to them.

Personally, I think Bungie knows what is wrong with their game. And when I say "what is wrong" I mean what is actually broken. I feel like a lot of people are complaining about Destiny because it's not what they expected/wanted. Bungie made they game they wanted to make. They are still evolving the game that way. They have hit some bumps along the way.

Also, Bungie does ground braking games. I love them for it. But I have to say, Destiny was a huge bite in ground braking games. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't really think of a decent MMO game that also has PvP (at least good).

And no one mentions the fact that Destiny is YOUNG. I would love for Destiny to be compared to Warframe at the age Destiny is at now. Or compare Destiny that is two years older to a current Warframe.

I love Destiny for what it is. I know that it still needs time to mature and stabilize. But frankly, all MMO's do.