• If you try and miss headshots with a handcannon, you'll probably have to reload before the kill. (Also, the slow RoF makes a good target re-acquisition very important.)
  
• If you try for headshots, but aren't very good with aiming with the Pulse Rifle, you'll hit the ceiling a LOT more often than heads. (Same re-acquisition argument.)
  
• If you suck at long range anyway, Scouts suck.

ARs are the poor-aim-er's go-to gun. Since the recoil is, most often, not only predictable but also constant (less time between shots, no trigger finger movement between shots), target re-acquisition is far easier than any other gun.

Back when I completely sucked at Crucible, Up for Anything was my savior. It allowed me to compete well enough to get the feel for the flow of the maps. Then I moved up to a Vanquisher, once I got a lot better at targeting human players. Now I kind of wreck face with Bad Juju, which, since the buff, is basically a Vanquisher anyway, but more forgiving to half-misses and let's me Super a lot more often.

Agreed. I actually sharded my Timur's Lash right after I got it three Iron Banners ago because the rate of fire was too low for me. Yeah, you might even get a two headshot kill with it (maybe?)

Timur's Lash is a two shot kill for an enemy with full health if and only if:

1. Both are head shots, and either

1. You have luck in the Chamber and one of the Bullets is bonus damage.
2. You Kill someone while under the bonus of Crowd Control.
3. You kill someone with the last bullet in the mag having the final round perk.

Occasionally, I want to use a different Exotic in the Crucible, so I swap out my Last Word for Timur's Lash (soon to be Fatebringer, as soon as it's fully leveled). The difference is NIGHT AND DAY. One is a killing machine - the other requires ME to be a killing machine. I guess if I were perfect, I could make do with Timur's Lash. But I'm not. So I'm really happy with TLW.

Last word is its own thing here. I would suggest trying to get a medium impact hand cannon with send it. Give it a try, and you'll probably like how they perform.

Agreed. I actually sharded my Timur's Lash right after I got it three Iron Banners ago because the rate of fire was too low for me. Yeah, you might even get a two headshot kill with it (maybe?) but if you miss or hesitate you're done for. I bought a standard The Devil You Don't yesterday and enjoyed the rate of fire. It's not The Last Word, but I imagine you'd like it a lot more than the slow and ultra slow Hand Cannons... I just had to remember that I absolutely had to reload after each kill as its 5 bullet magazine will only get you 1.67 kills, at most, before you run out. :p

(I do wonder if its Final Round perk is powerful enough to get me to two kills... I'll know in a couple of days...)

At close/mid range, they will never be as effective as shotguns and Fusion Rifles. Suros is great because it has similar effective range to HCs, PRs and SRs, but its still different to use. Since the other 3 primary weapons all have similar effective range and time to kill stats, most ARs simply aren't competitive. The few that do come close in terms of range & accuracy are great. Usable, without feeling overpowered.

Which comes back to what someone else said which is the root problem for auto rifles: shotguns and fusion rifles are not limited power weapons like in Halo, but permanent fixtures in the game. Auto Rifles are not as good precisely because at any given time, most opponents have something to counter it.

I agree, which is why I feel like it is a simpler solution to just bring ARs in line with the other primaries (which are decently well balanced between each other), rather than totally overhaul the nature of Destiny's weapon sandbox.

Absolutely.

The last nerf was overkill- 2.5% sounds fairly insignificant, but in practice it seems to be just enough that everything else can kill much quicker, at ANY range.

I think that the biggest difference between the Primary weapons should be cadence- ARs provide a steady stream, PRs have that momentary pause between bursts to allow you to re-align, HCs have a much longer pause but hit harder (risk/reward), and SRs are slightly less powerful, faster-firing versions of HCs.

That might sound kind of boring, but we're walking a fine line here. I'd rather have a bunch of very similar, but not identical weapon classes that can be competitive with each other at a set (primary-weapon specific) range, then try to find unique roles for all these weapon archetypes, and keep failing at balancing it.

Simplify the range hierarchy to Sniper > Primary > Fusion Rifle > Shotgun.

At close/mid range, they will never be as effective as shotguns and Fusion Rifles. Suros is great because it has similar effective range to HCs, PRs and SRs, but its still different to use. Since the other 3 primary weapons all have similar effective range and time to kill stats, most ARs simply aren't competitive. The few that do come close in terms of range & accuracy are great. Usable, without feeling overpowered.

Which comes back to what someone else said which is the root problem for auto rifles: shotguns and fusion rifles are not limited power weapons like in Halo, but permanent fixtures in the game. Auto Rifles are not as good precisely because at any given time, most opponents have something to counter it.

I agree, which is why I feel like it is a simpler solution to just bring ARs in line with the other primaries (which are decently well balanced between each other), rather than totally overhaul the nature of Destiny's weapon sandbox.

The real solution (that nobody wants to admit) is to give up on the concept of the Auto Rifle.

I wouldn't go that far. I think we just need more auto rifles I the slow firing/hard hitting archetype. As I and many others have pointed out, Suros and Mythoclast (I know it's technically a fusion rifle, but it behaves like an AR) are still perfectly competitive with the best hand cannons or scout rifles.

Nooooo! Those ones are the problem!

We need a range nerf and a big damage boost on AR's. Turn them into SMGs; give them a bunch of kick, but the strength to kill nearly as fast as shotguns when at close range. A burst followed by a melee should kill really quick with AR's, allowing them to compete with shotguns at closer ranges, but not HC's and PR's at longer ranges. The reason they've been nerfed so much is because the vanquisher archetype is just too good at all ranges.

At close/mid range, they will never be as effective as shotguns and Fusion Rifles. Suros is great because it has similar effective range to HCs, PRs and SRs, but its still different to use. Since the other 3 primary weapons all have similar effective range and time to kill stats, most ARs simply aren't competitive. The few that do come close in terms of range & accuracy are great. Usable, without feeling overpowered.

Which comes back to what someone else said which is the root problem for auto rifles: shotguns and fusion rifles are not limited power weapons like in Halo, but permanent fixtures in the game. Auto Rifles are not as good precisely because at any given time, most opponents have something to counter it.

The real solution (that nobody wants to admit) is to give up on the concept of the Auto Rifle.

I wouldn't go that far. I think we just need more auto rifles I the slow firing/hard hitting archetype. As I and many others have pointed out, Suros and Mythoclast (I know it's technically a fusion rifle, but it behaves like an AR) are still perfectly competitive with the best hand cannons or scout rifles.

Nooooo! Those ones are the problem!

We need a range nerf and a big damage boost on AR's. Turn them into SMGs; give them a bunch of kick, but the strength to kill nearly as fast as shotguns when at close range. A burst followed by a melee should kill really quick with AR's, allowing them to compete with shotguns at closer ranges, but not HC's and PR's at longer ranges. The reason they've been nerfed so much is because the vanquisher archetype is just too good at all ranges.

At close/mid range, they will never be as effective as shotguns and Fusion Rifles. Suros is great because it has similar effective range to HCs, PRs and SRs, but its still different to use. Since the other 3 primary weapons all have similar effective range and time to kill stats, most ARs simply aren't competitive. The few that do come close in terms of range & accuracy are great. Usable, without feeling overpowered.

The real solution (that nobody wants to admit) is to give up on the concept of the Auto Rifle.

I wouldn't go that far. I think we just need more auto rifles I the slow firing/hard hitting archetype. As I and many others have pointed out, Suros and Mythoclast (I know it's technically a fusion rifle, but it behaves like an AR) are still perfectly competitive with the best hand cannons or scout rifles.

Nooooo, Those ones are the problem!

What we really need is a range nerf and a big damage boost on AR's. Turn them into SMGs; give them a bunch of kick, but the strength to kill nearly as fast as shotguns when at close range. A burst followed by a melee should kill really quick with AR's, allowing them to compete with shotguns at closer ranges, but not HC's and PR's at longer ranges. The reason they've been nerfed so much is because the vanquisher archetype is just too good at all ranges.

I agree completely. I never really liked the slow RoF ARs anyway. They aren't true ARs

The real solution (that nobody wants to admit) is to give up on the concept of the Auto Rifle.

I wouldn't go that far. I think we just need more auto rifles I the slow firing/hard hitting archetype. As I and many others have pointed out, Suros and Mythoclast (I know it's technically a fusion rifle, but it behaves like an AR) are still perfectly competitive with the best hand cannons or scout rifles.

Nooooo, Those ones are the problem!

What we really need is a range nerf and a big damage boost on AR's. Turn them into SMGs; give them a bunch of kick, but the strength to kill nearly as fast as shotguns when at close range. A burst followed by a melee should kill really quick with AR's, allowing them to compete with shotguns at closer ranges, but not HC's and PR's at longer ranges. The reason they've been nerfed so much is because the vanquisher archetype is just too good at all ranges.

The real solution (that nobody wants to admit) is to give up on the concept of the Auto Rifle.

I wouldn't go that far. I think we just need more auto rifles I the slow firing/hard hitting archetype. As I and many others have pointed out, Suros and Mythoclast (I know it's technically a fusion rifle, but it behaves like an AR) are still perfectly competitive with the best hand cannons or scout rifles. I feel there are just too few ARs with similar range/RoF/impact stats.

Not Bungie FPSes. For literally a decade now the goto gun for Bungie games has been a precision zoomable weapon. The Assault Rifle and SMG were the crappy short ranged guns you tossed aside for a Battle Rigle or DMR as soon as possible.

I didn't mean play style, I meant what I think of when I think of FPS games. I mean if you look at every poster of Master Chief, more often than not he is holding an AR.

Most hardcore players seem to accept this now. I haven't even touched my Suros in a month. PVP is Red Death or TLW, PvE is Timur's Lash or whatever elemental is best for the occasion. I might bring out my Nechrochasm for an arc burn week sometime though, or Abyss Defiant for solar burn.

Don't go to the extreme. Auto Rifles aren't useless. They just don't have a well defined zone and suffer for it. That being true, I did fairly well with my Up For Anything last night. And my Suros is even better. They're both competitive, if never the absolute best choice.

The existence of the shotgun and fusion rifle mean that nothing else can be viable short range.

Not to mention melee and grenades. It is really tough to find a balance where ARs and SRs/PRs all fit in harmony.

I actually think this issue spans to most shooters; ARs don't really have a niche.

Which is really depressing because ARs are the bread and butter of FPS's in my mind.

3 posts ago, you said there's no reason to use Thorn, because "any other hand cannon" was just as good.

Wrong. I was speaking about THE HYPOTHETICAL NERFED THORN, where 2 headshots wouldn't kill. Come on man. There would be no reason to use his proposed Thorn over a legendary. There is plenty of reason to use the current Thorn over a legendary. Am I being clear enough?

Yeah, to be honest I agree with Cody. Thorn would not be objectively better than a legendary. Some people would use it because they enjoyed it subjectively, and other people would stick to a legendary. I think that's the goal with weapon balance.

3 posts ago, you said there's no reason to use Thorn, because "any other hand cannon" was just as good.

Wrong. I was speaking about THE HYPOTHETICAL NERFED THORN, where 2 headshots wouldn't kill. Come on man. There would be no reason to use his proposed Thorn over a legendary. There is plenty of reason to use the current Thorn over a legendary. Am I being clear enough?