"Mommy, why don't those bad men like Bungie? Bungie is good!" *cries*

SGG

I read a lot of things over and over on this forum. If Cody has x amount of money, he could make a better game. If only Destiny were more like Warframe, it would live up to its promise. Destiny is boring. Destiny is repetitive. If only Destiny had theater or forge mode or custom games, it would be awesome. The investment system is the root of all evil. This post aims to respond to many of these points as concisely as possible.

Rich Cody

Cody could make a better game in his dreams, and I bet he does dream about it. Maybe he could even do it, but I doubt he could make a better AAA game. In part because money isn’t enough to attract the talent needed. They would have to relocate to LA or wherever and dedicate years to a project led by Cody who? Cody may consider himself brilliant when it comes to understanding what makes games great, but even if he did have the vision and could attract the necessary talent, does he have the wherewithal to deal with all the crap big developers have to deal with in the AAA space?

Cody couldn't do it. He never could, nor will he...
But he believes it's not being done right either, and people like him are important. They bring doubt. Doubt is healthy, and highlights things that could be looked into for revision and/or improvement.

I don't disagree. I don't think you disagree with what my point was.

Warframe does Destiny right

Well, if you don’t mind your game being butt-ugly. There is nothing about Wargame that appeals to me aesthetically. The man hours involved in developing content for Destiny is exponentially higher, I bet, and it shows. Would Destiny be Destiny if it wasn’t expansive and weren’t jaw-dropping gorgeous? Not to me. That said, Bungie has never struck me as a studio that didn’t pay attention to what others are doing.

I'm more of a "Substance Over Style" kind of guy. And Warframe's unique art style is a breath of fresh air in a world where sleek (Mass Effect) and generic (Destiny) rule the day. But I wouldn't use "Expansive" and "jaw-dropping gorgeous" to describe Destiny. I think Mars may be the only area bigger than Halo 1's AotCR map, and only Mars has hints of an open-ended approach to things. Everything else is narrow, or open-but empty. No vehicular encounters, zero verticality, zero substance.

As for "jaw-dropping gorgeous", I like the style of the game, but most of it is pointless, empty space. Destiny is an example of too much work and time dedicated to very little substance, especially when a lot of it looks Forged together (and don't get me started on that Ember Caves ramp)...

They remind me of Apple. They often take from others, and perfect it.

No, they take what's worked for them and improve upon it. And that was great. Reach was the peak of their own style. Destiny, on the other hand, is a checklist of tricks to make people play longer, and the game is designed around that philosophy.

I WISH Bungie was like Apple, which is why I highlight areas that could be improved by looking at how other games do everything much neater and better. I could make countless videos of things that Warframe does better, but I have thus far kept it concise and focused. But let's take a quick gander at things Destiny sucks at that Warframe doesn't:

Classes-
Destiny: "Which of these three characters should I pick?" "Eh, they're mostly the same except for their Supers and jumps, but they have two different supers that you can pick."
Warframe: "Whoah, 23 different characters? All with unique playstyles!?" "Not just that, but you can give each one a completely different build, to focus on different strengths and weaknesses!" "HNNNNNNNGGGG!!!"

Inventory-
Destiny: "Do I have that weapon on my character? No. Crap. Gotta go to the tower. Crap it's not in my vault, gotta change character. Okay, I think this character has it. Thank God, okay, back to the tower... No room to swap? Dang it!"
Warframe: "Gotta change my loadout." *Loadout 4: "T4 Defense"*, "Okay, ready!"

Trade-
Destiny:"I wish I had a Hawkmoon, and you have three!?" "Darn shame, friend."
Warframe:"I wish I had a Nova Prime!" "No problem, I have an extra set!"

Item acquisition-
Destiny: "I've run the raids and Nightfall 100 times, and all I've gotten are shards and engrams that turn into more shards!"
Warframe: *Opens chat* "I want to build a Nekros! How do I get it?" "OD Assassination is guaranteed to drop his parts, I can help you run it!"
OR *opens clan chat* "I need an Intensify for more damage, where can I get one?" "I've got one, buddy! Want this Flow for more energy as well?"

Customization-
Destiny:"All I have are ugly shaders and I still don't have a raid hemet."
Warframe: Whoah, you can customize EVERYTHING! Oh look, free Holiday color pack! Sweet!"

Team-building-
Destiny:"I need people to carry me through the raid." "Just go to the tower and spam invites."
Warframe: "I need people to carry me through a T4 capture." *opens Recruit chat* "Hosting T4 Cap, pm me for invite!" *flooded with requests*

Passing time-
Destiny: "Uh, anybody want to do the Daily story? No? Okay... Wanna kick the ball in the tower? No? Okay..."
Warframe: "While I wait for them to finish that Survival Mission... Should I improve my Clan leaderboard scores on Wyrmius, Flappy Zephyr, Clan Obstacle Course, or practice my Mastery tests?"

I could really go on...

A lot of SGG in there.

I said that I'm sure Bungie is paying attention, and I trust them to take inspiration from Warframe where it suits Destiny, and probably come up with some cool stuff on their own, if the past is any indication. Destiny has several important strengths that Warframe doesn't have, though, as other people have said in this thread. These strengths have costs associated with them. For example, not having procedurally generated environments means it takes more resources to generate new content.

Destiny should have what Halo 3 had

Launch day I played with a long-time Bungie veteran. The one thing he kept repeating was “This is the foundation—like Halo 1. We have a lot of work to do.” Theater mode and Forge are what I call perpetual promotion machines. They are fantastic in terms of adding longevity to game. I think we’ll see these kinds of features as the franchise matures. Maybe Bungie hasn't done what some would want since launch, but the amount of changes they’ve introduced is much more than we’ve seen from them before. It’s more than enough to convince me that they mean it when they say the game will evolve.

Wrong. If a bare-bones map pack and flip-flopping balance changes are "much more than we’ve seen from them before", then either you have a skewed idea of what content is, or I have a wrong idea of what Bungie did in the past, because if this is "more" than firefight, Forge, Theater, Customs, Campaign scoring, skulls, file sharing, and Action sack, then there's clearly something I'm missing.

You are missing something. If I had said "at this point in the game's life cycle," would that have been clearer?

Remember, I was literally the first guy to run around throwing the word "foundation release" when the game came out. But that was with the understanding that we'd get more from Bungie. That they would communicate and make changes that were needed from Alpha stage... But seven months down the road, and they were teasing about big changes, only to reveal some colorblind options and the ability to lower one channel of volume? GTFO, Bungie.

SGG. You were LITERALLY THE FIRST GUY? Wow. Do you honestly expect feature sets like you're describing to appear before the expansion packs are done? The majority of the work they're doing now was scoped before the game came out. I'm saying that I think we can expect the kind of innovation we saw in the later Halo games in the later Destiny games. I don't know why that's so troubling. I think it's realistic.

The investment system ruins a good game

Yes, it does, if you let it. But consider that you are Bungie, and you’re on top of the online gaming heap after Halo 2—for years. The money guys love longevity, and if there’s one thing that’s true, it’s that money matters in the AAA space more than ever because more pixels cost more. With each iteration of Halo, though, people played less and less. What do you do? There are ethical questions about Skinner boxes, and I won’t make a full-throated defense of Destiny’s investment system, especially in terms of its effect on people with addictive personalities, but Bungie already had a reputation for making addictive games. Are investment systems evil, the equivalent of adding nicotine to cigarettes? I don’t know, but there is another way of thinking about it. What if the core gameplay is as fun as ever, but what if, in addition to that, you have drops that are coveted and that provide another way that the game can be played differently, over time. What if the game offered a rich set of tools that changed over time, and experimenting with elements provided by these tools added longevity. Providing this kind of content regularly is doable, whereas providing new environments of Destiny’s quality is not. I think Destiny is Bungie trying to find a way, in today gaming market, to provide a platform where they can grow their product consistently and achieve their artistic goals over a long time horizon, while keeping the numbers high enough to keep the money guys interested in order the finance the whole thing.

And they're doing a lousy job. A really lousy job. The best way to keep people interested, given the MMO style of the game, would be to release morsels of content. A new MP map. A new gametype (Inferno is just regular Control without radar. Whoop dee doo), community events (remember Queen's Wrath? I remember Queen's Wrath. Remember Trials of Osiris? Oh wait), and maybe some more weapons or shaders at least. But no.

Obviously, Queen's Wrath didn't work out as well as they hoped. They've said as much.

Oh wait, they've actually REMOVED content!
Remember Bastion, or First Light? Remember when we had those maps?

A special word about custom games

The lack of this truly hurts Destiny and is the biggest casualty of the investment system. The calculation was probably made out of simplicity. Loot drops have to be offered for every activity, and to not have them broke the model on some level. I think that this will change as the game evolves, and certainly Bungie has witnessed the special fun that can be had when you play against your friends. I look forward to this feature almost as much as theater mode, but the latter is what I really would love. My favorite Halo metagame was always being a war correspondent.

That's right, Kermit. Just take that flimsy defense. You just take it, and wrap it around you like a warm blanket. Feels good, huh?

SGG.

"Guys, Bungie cut custom games, but that's okay! Because maybe one day we'll have it! I mean, I know they've said that they have no plans for it, but remember all the fun we had?" -Kermit

SGG. BTW, I was thinking of the Bungie Bounties. I think it'd be crazy for Bungie to not find a way to allow these competitive experiences in the future.

Anyway, I remain hopeful about what Destiny can become, and I'm still enjoying the heck out of it.

Heck, I played it all week, but now that IB is done, I have zero incentive to play anything besides Crucible (and I have many other fun games to play instead). I even skipped a week of Nightfall, didn't bother to glance in Xur's direction, and turned down a few DBOer invites to run Crucible/IB.

The game got stale, as games with 300+ hours in them are wont to do.

Well, of course.

I understand that it hurts to hear that someone thinks that Bungie isn't perfect, Kermit, but the truth is that they can do wrong.

SGG

And they have, but I still love Bungie. That's why they frustrate me (and others). I want to see them succeed, and that's why I make a point to try to show them the way in my own small way.

I think they're listening, and I wouldn't say they don't need us, but I'd be shocked if they didn't already have the same criticisms of their own game, and weren't debating the best ways to improve it right now.

I want the game to be better, too, and my post was to point out some of the obstacles and challenges involved with making a big expensive game that people actually play and that actually makes money. I think armchair game developers often overlook these things. Making and improving a game takes resources, and these resources are finite. You also can't add X and not expect it to affect the Y thing that you already like. Destiny is the most complex game they've made systemically. They could break what works if they're not careful. Some would argue they already have in small ways (e.g., materials for marks, etc.)

Lastly, I feel sad when I have take a defensive posture while being a fan of Bungie here of all places. (Was Reach the turning point on Bungie.org sites? I don't know. It depresses me.) My post was meant to be hopeful, positive, and realistic about the future--a future that I realize won't arrive next week. If someone can suggest a Bungie fan site where I can go and not be ridiculed for trying to give them the benefit of a doubt, I'd be interested.

A personal note to you, Korny. I love you when you are a positive influence, but as a critic, you can be downright mean. I've given up trying to understand why.

That said... drinking ocean water can kill you.

Was expecting a video of someone bm'ing in a crucible match...need to spend less time on the internet.

I read a lot of things over and over on this forum. If Cody has x amount of money, he could make a better game. If only Destiny were more like Warframe, it would live up to its promise. Destiny is boring. Destiny is repetitive. If only Destiny had theater or forge mode or custom games, it would be awesome. The investment system is the root of all evil. This post aims to respond to many of these points as concisely as possible.

Rich Cody

Cody could make a better game in his dreams, and I bet he does dream about it. Maybe he could even do it, but I doubt he could make a better AAA game. In part because money isn’t enough to attract the talent needed. They would have to relocate to LA or wherever and dedicate years to a project led by Cody who? Cody may consider himself brilliant when it comes to understanding what makes games great, but even if he did have the vision and could attract the necessary talent, does he have the wherewithal to deal with all the crap big developers have to deal with in the AAA space?

Cody couldn't do it. He never could, nor will he...
But he believes it's not being done right either, and people like him are important. They bring doubt. Doubt is healthy, and highlights things that could be looked into for revision and/or improvement.

Warframe does Destiny right

Well, if you don’t mind your game being butt-ugly. There is nothing about Wargame that appeals to me aesthetically. The man hours involved in developing content for Destiny is exponentially higher, I bet, and it shows. Would Destiny be Destiny if it wasn’t expansive and weren’t jaw-dropping gorgeous? Not to me. That said, Bungie has never struck me as a studio that didn’t pay attention to what others are doing.

I'm more of a "Substance Over Style" kind of guy. And Warframe's unique art style is a breath of fresh air in a world where sleek (Mass Effect) and generic (Destiny) rule the day. But I wouldn't use "Expansive" and "jaw-dropping gorgeous" to describe Destiny. I think Mars may be the only area bigger than Halo 1's AotCR map, and only Mars has hints of an open-ended approach to things. Everything else is narrow, or open-but empty. No vehicular encounters, zero verticality, zero substance.

As for "jaw-dropping gorgeous", I like the style of the game, but most of it is pointless, empty space. Destiny is an example of too much work and time dedicated to very little substance, especially when a lot of it looks Forged together (and don't get me started on that Ember Caves ramp)...

They remind me of Apple. They often take from others, and perfect it.

No, they take what's worked for them and improve upon it. And that was great. Reach was the peak of their own style. Destiny, on the other hand, is a checklist of tricks to make people play longer, and the game is designed around that philosophy.

I WISH Bungie was like Apple, which is why I highlight areas that could be improved by looking at how other games do everything much neater and better. I could make countless videos of things that Warframe does better, but I have thus far kept it concise and focused. But let's take a quick gander at things Destiny sucks at that Warframe doesn't:

Classes-
Destiny: "Which of these three characters should I pick?" "Eh, they're mostly the same except for their Supers and jumps, but they have two different supers that you can pick."
Warframe: "Whoah, 23 different characters? All with unique playstyles!?" "Not just that, but you can give each one a completely different build, to focus on different strengths and weaknesses!" "HNNNNNNNGGGG!!!"

Inventory-
Destiny: "Do I have that weapon on my character? No. Crap. Gotta go to the tower. Crap it's not in my vault, gotta change character. Okay, I think this character has it. Thank God, okay, back to the tower... No room to swap? Dang it!"
Warframe: "Gotta change my loadout." *Loadout 4: "T4 Defense"*, "Okay, ready!"

Trade-
Destiny:"I wish I had a Hawkmoon, and you have three!?" "Darn shame, friend."
Warframe:"I wish I had a Nova Prime!" "No problem, I have an extra set!"

Item acquisition-
Destiny: "I've run the raids and Nightfall 100 times, and all I've gotten are shards and engrams that turn into more shards!"
Warframe: *Opens chat* "I want to build a Nekros! How do I get it?" "OD Assassination is guaranteed to drop his parts, I can help you run it!"
OR *opens clan chat* "I need an Intensify for more damage, where can I get one?" "I've got one, buddy! Want this Flow for more energy as well?"

Customization-
Destiny:"All I have are ugly shaders and I still don't have a raid hemet."
Warframe: Whoah, you can customize EVERYTHING! Oh look, free Holiday color pack! Sweet!"

Team-building-
Destiny:"I need people to carry me through the raid." "Just go to the tower and spam invites."
Warframe: "I need people to carry me through a T4 capture." *opens Recruit chat* "Hosting T4 Cap, pm me for invite!" *flooded with requests*

Passing time-
Destiny: "Uh, anybody want to do the Daily story? No? Okay... Wanna kick the ball in the tower? No? Okay..."
Warframe: "While I wait for them to finish that Survival Mission... Should I improve my Clan leaderboard scores on Wyrmius, Flappy Zephyr, Clan Obstacle Course, or practice my Mastery tests?"

I could really go on...

Destiny should have what Halo 3 had

Launch day I played with a long-time Bungie veteran. The one thing he kept repeating was “This is the foundation—like Halo 1. We have a lot of work to do.” Theater mode and Forge are what I call perpetual promotion machines. They are fantastic in terms of adding longevity to game. I think we’ll see these kinds of features as the franchise matures. Maybe Bungie hasn't done what some would want since launch, but the amount of changes they’ve introduced is much more than we’ve seen from them before. It’s more than enough to convince me that they mean it when they say the game will evolve.

Wrong. If a bare-bones map pack and flip-flopping balance changes are "much more than we’ve seen from them before", then either you have a skewed idea of what content is, or I have a wrong idea of what Bungie did in the past, because if this is "more" than firefight, Forge, Theater, Customs, Campaign scoring, skulls, file sharing, and Action sack, then there's clearly something I'm missing.
Remember, I was literally the first guy to run around throwing the word "foundation release" when the game came out. But that was with the understanding that we'd get more from Bungie. That they would communicate and make changes that were needed from Alpha stage... But seven months down the road, and they were teasing about big changes, only to reveal some colorblind options and the ability to lower one channel of volume? GTFO, Bungie.

The investment system ruins a good game

Yes, it does, if you let it. But consider that you are Bungie, and you’re on top of the online gaming heap after Halo 2—for years. The money guys love longevity, and if there’s one thing that’s true, it’s that money matters in the AAA space more than ever because more pixels cost more. With each iteration of Halo, though, people played less and less. What do you do? There are ethical questions about Skinner boxes, and I won’t make a full-throated defense of Destiny’s investment system, especially in terms of its effect on people with addictive personalities, but Bungie already had a reputation for making addictive games. Are investment systems evil, the equivalent of adding nicotine to cigarettes? I don’t know, but there is another way of thinking about it. What if the core gameplay is as fun as ever, but what if, in addition to that, you have drops that are coveted and that provide another way that the game can be played differently, over time. What if the game offered a rich set of tools that changed over time, and experimenting with elements provided by these tools added longevity. Providing this kind of content regularly is doable, whereas providing new environments of Destiny’s quality is not. I think Destiny is Bungie trying to find a way, in today gaming market, to provide a platform where they can grow their product consistently and achieve their artistic goals over a long time horizon, while keeping the numbers high enough to keep the money guys interested in order the finance the whole thing.

And they're doing a lousy job. A really lousy job. The best way to keep people interested, given the MMO style of the game, would be to release morsels of content. A new MP map. A new gametype (Inferno is just regular Control without radar. Whoop dee doo), community events (remember Queen's Wrath? I remember Queen's Wrath. Remember Trials of Osiris? Oh wait), and maybe some more weapons or shaders at least. But no.

Oh wait, they've actually REMOVED content!
Remember Bastion, or First Light? Remember when we had those maps?

A special word about custom games

The lack of this truly hurts Destiny and is the biggest casualty of the investment system. The calculation was probably made out of simplicity. Loot drops have to be offered for every activity, and to not have them broke the model on some level. I think that this will change as the game evolves, and certainly Bungie has witnessed the special fun that can be had when you play against your friends. I look forward to this feature almost as much as theater mode, but the latter is what I really would love. My favorite Halo metagame was always being a war correspondent.

That's right, Kermit. Just take that flimsy defense. You just take it, and wrap it around you like a warm blanket. Feels good, huh?

"Guys, Bungie cut custom games, but that's okay! Because maybe one day we'll have it! I mean, I know they've said that they have no plans for it, but remember all the fun we had?" -Kermit

Anyway, I remain hopeful about what Destiny can become, and I'm still enjoying the heck out of it.

Heck, I played it all week, but now that IB is done, I have zero incentive to play anything besides Crucible (and I have many other fun games to play instead). I even skipped a week of Nightfall, didn't bother to glance in Xur's direction, and turned down a few DBOer invites to run Crucible/IB.

The game got stale, as games with 300+ hours in them are wont to do.

I understand that it hurts to hear that someone thinks that Bungie isn't perfect, Kermit, but the truth is that they can do wrong. And they have, but I still love Bungie. That's why they frustrate me (and others). I want to see them succeed, and that's why I make a point to try to show them the way in my own small way.

But it's not really. You should be having fun right away. If a game "doesn't get good until later" that means it's designed improperly. And why play a boring game to just have fun later, when you could play a game that's fun from the start?

Haven't you done anything in life that was really challenging, perhaps no fun at all at first, only to then reap the benefits and enjoyment of that work later? There is so much of life that works this way!

I can think of a lot of examples but I'll just share one. I'm a guitarist. It took me over 6 months to get a chord ring out easily as I developed the callouses and the hand strength. If I hadn't gotten through that, I would have never wrote a song and made a few albums. That was totally worth it. But I meet people every day who quit before they got through the first 6 months. It really saddens me.

I'm not saying games have to be that way, and frankly, far be it for me to try and say how to design a great game. I have no idea. But some things in life are enjoyable only after you've invested more time than any sane person ever would. Lack of hardship is not the cornerstone of a good game or a good life.

I think the distinction (at least for me) is that playing a guitar is a skill, an expression, an art form, a creative outlet, etc. Now videogames are of course many different things to each of us, but generally speaking, they are games. Activities that we engage in specifically to have fun. When I put thousands of hours I to learning how to play guitar, some of it was fun, some of it was very much NOT. But I was dedicated to it because I was learning a skill, something that would lead to a lot of enjoyment and creative expression for me.

Now Destiny is not like most games for me, because I've dedicated such a massive amount if time to it. It can be stressful or frustrating at times, but I stick with it because I'm progressing towards enjoyable goals. The only reason I put up with the brief lows is because the high marks are so damn fun, it makes it worthwhile for me.

But most games... If I'm not having fun RIGHT AWAY, I put them down. After all, I'm playing them to have fun. If I'm thinking to myself "I would be having more fun if I were playing Destiny or Titanfall right now", then I shut it off and go play Destiny or Titanfall.

Except when the "beat" is exactly the sort of thing most people don't feel. Then my body tries as hard as it can to make me feel awkward.

As a former avid Lindy-Hop/East Coast Swing enthusiast, why did you go with Salsa instead of some other dance?

1. It is awesome.
2. There is a huge scene in LA.

Have to say, I enjoy Salsa more than just about all other ballroom dances (partial to Jive), both in and out of a ballroom studio; Salsa is especially adaptable to location as well, and the East coast salsa clubs I've been to feel and dance quite differently than the West Coast ones. Spanish Salsa clubs are especially fun.

Now I feel like ranking ballroom dances.

1. Jive
2. Salsa
3. Viennese Waltz
4. Samba
5. Hustle (sort of counts?)
6. Everything else

As a former avid Lindy-Hop/East Coast Swing enthusiast, why did you go with Salsa instead of some other dance?

1. It is awesome.
2. There is a huge scene in LA.

Haven't you done anything in life that was really challenging, perhaps no fun at all at first, only to then reap the benefits and enjoyment of that work later? There is so much of life that works this way!

No actually. I learned how to salsa over the past year. It was really hard at first, and it was a challenge, but that was actually FUN. I can't think of a time when starting an activity that I was bad at that I didn't find the act of learning it fun.

As a former avid Lindy-Hop/East Coast Swing enthusiast, why did you go with Salsa instead of some other dance? I took a Salsa lesson or two, but I didn't pursue it. Was that because it wasn't fun? No, but it wasn't fun enough, or more fun than the other dances.

In games, there are few times where I hate a game so much that I'd rather be, say, giving my cat a bath. Instead, what I really mean is that the game isn't nearly as fun as any number of other games I'd rather be playing.

And kudos on salsa dancing, it is tough. I've done it a few times and it was fun, even if I only knew a move or two.

Because sometimes it takes a while to get a proper feel for a game that you initially dislike. Like, have you ever tried a game, decided it's a "massive disappointment", sold it, then had to turn around and get a funny look when you rebuy it after you learned that your first impression was wrong? ;)

Yes…

Are you talking about Beyond: Two Souls? Just curious.

Because sometimes it takes a while to get a proper feel for a game that you initially dislike. Like, have you ever tried a game, decided it's a "massive disappointment", sold it, then had to turn around and get a funny look when you rebuy it after you learned that your first impression was wrong? ;)

Yes…

Yeah, my half hour with it didn't impress, but I realize that judging it based on that is unfair.

But it's not really. You should be having fun right away. If a game "doesn't get good until later" that means it's designed improperly. And why play a boring game to just have fun later, when you could play a game that's fun from the start?

Because sometimes it takes a while to get a proper feel for a game that you initially dislike. Like, have you ever tried a game, decided it's a "massive disappointment", sold it, then had to turn around and get a funny look when you rebuy it after you learned that your first impression was wrong? ;)

Haven't you done anything in life that was really challenging, perhaps no fun at all at first, only to then reap the benefits and enjoyment of that work later? There is so much of life that works this way!

No actually. I learned how to salsa over the past year. It was really hard at first, and it was a challenge, but that was actually FUN. I can't think of a time when starting an activity that I was bad at that I didn't find the act of learning it fun.

Typical old man, having trouble with technology, huh? ;-)

Dude, this old man does usability testing. Specifically, if viewing that e-mail in Chrome open to icloud.com's mail viewer, and you press the space twice while typing in a field, the e-mail goes to your trash.

I'll plug your answers into the spreadsheet, and as you suggested I will be starting a group email chain soon so we can start introducing ourselves and discuss various things. Mainly waiting on Macphisto + wife to fill out the form, and to hear back from Cody on whether he can make it (supposedly he'll have that answer today).

Fingers crossed that all can attend.

I'll plug your answers into the spreadsheet, and as you suggested I will be starting a group email chain soon so we can start introducing ourselves and discuss various things. Mainly waiting on Macphisto + wife to fill out the form, and to hear back from Cody on whether he can make it (supposedly he'll have that answer today).

I just sent my answers without using the form.

I say it depends on the game. I know someone, for instance, who wasn't impressed with the Last of Us until about halfway through (and never really liked the game mechanics), but at that point his pace and enjoyment picked up simply because he wanted to find out what happened to the characters. (That he didn't seem to care after the first 20 minutes is a mystery to me, but there you go.)

It's not an issue of finding the characters interesting, it's an issue of being entertained by the flow of their narrative. When the seasons start to change halfway through is when the game really starts to pay off on its setups; you can just feel the narrative cogs start to turn as even the visual palette finally begins to get mixed up.

Not that you could help things out by simply cutting content; all of the first-act content that ND included has a reason to be there. I think the most extreme case of this sort of issue that I've seen was with the film Ikiru; first two thirds are sluggish and bordering on boring, but the final act wouldn't have a thousandth of the massive payoff it does without them.