But don't all Player Investment systems by default have to include Avatar Progression in order to function? What does a Player Investment system look like without Avatar Progression?

Not necessarily, however you are right that the ones that suck the least try to justify themselves by feeding back into the actual game. You could have investment through collectables, cosmetics, etc.

I probably should have called it Avatar progression, since that's what it really is. Avatar progression is simply when a game lets you improve the character you play somehow. You can get better weapons, abilities, items, moves, etc. Player Investment are the systems which try to entice actual people into playing the game, usually through a system of rewards.

Avatar progression can greatly enhance a game. An investment system can never enhance a game.

Thanks for the reply.

But don't all Player Investment systems by default have to include Avatar Progression in order to function? What does a Player Investment system look like without Avatar Progression?

And isn't Avatar Progression (i.e. the promise/reward of upgrading your Avatar) a form of Player Investment? What does a non-investment version of Avatar Progression look like?

Have these two things ever been clearly separated in a game, and if so, what did it look like?

Thanks! :)

It probably also helps temper your statements when the other person is close enough to punch you in the face. :)

That's one of the various reasons, yes. Hopefully nobody here needs the chance of physical violence to keep them from acting too stupid.

I can show you fella's the Fitzsimmon's Shift. Get your hooks in order too. We'll make sure Raga doesn't pick on you.

It probably also helps temper your statements when the other person is close enough to punch you in the face. :)

That's one of the various reasons, yes. Hopefully nobody here needs the chance of physical violence to keep them from acting too stupid.

The only way his adjusting his approach would work is if he stopped believing that everyone but him is an idiot and that he alone has the one correct solution to a given problem.

I might believe he believed that if he was consistent in his behavior away from this forum, but I've found him not to be. I've enjoyed TALKING with Cody.

To me, that makes his behavior here all the more insulting! What is it about this place or text interactions that makes him think it's ok for him to be an outright troll here but not when he's talking live with you or others (who have also reported he is much better in person)? I really don't get it. I've always lived by the rule that I will only ever say things that I actually support. I won't ever say anything here or in private or on a tweet or blog or email that I won't say to your face. I see the split behavior you describe as a massive character flaw!

If he's even a little bit like what I've seen of him in various Internet spaces, he believes everything he says he does. That's not necessarily at odds with seeming more reasonable in person. Talking person to person you have tone of voice, you have body language, you have a different flow of conversation, replies tend to be shorter and less meticulous, you can't just put in a bunch of pictures or links, people tend to not have research and quotes at the ready so much, there tend to be more questions, there tends to be more time, the verbal version of a text wall doesn't really hold up because no one wants to hear it... it's very different and more flexible. People, themselves, tend to be more flexible, for various reasons. (If I remember correctly, I've been told that I'm more pleasant in person than on-line, but not fundamentally different.)

Oh good. We're to the part where we make up what Cody should have or could have said instead by going by his actual words. Yes, demanding that he play ever DLC ever is absurd but it was only a response to his statements that:

Only mandatory content can be rolled into the game in a meaningful way, and be created with the finely tuned interactions with the other content in the game.

And

Don't take my word for it: history has proved my point. No DLC in the history of the medium stands up to the best of what non dlc has to offer. None. Not a single example.

Stop making excuses for him or putting better words in his mouth and respond to what he actually said! If he wants to say something that is reasonable let him do it himself. When he says something completely unreasonable he should be held accountable for it. If you keep prettying up his statements you're just enabling and encouraging and actively supporting his further bad behavior.

The more you, or anyone else, including Cody, make the thread specifically about Cody, rather than the issues (which may or may not have merit), the more it goes downhill. This is why people don't respect forums and the discourse that happens on forums: stupid drama. (That's not to call you stupid, but the situation.) If Cody's posting is so awful you should ignore it-- he won't stop, but telling him to stop obviously doesn't work either, and directly engaging or even referencing his posts encourages responses. Agh, now you've got me doing it even more!

Then BAM! Tiny Tina's. I laughed, I cried, I awed and I laughed again. Most important of all: I had a major good time.

Hell, "Tiny Tina's Assault on Dragon Keep" (my favorite piece of DLC, besides Spock/Lizard in Rock, Paper, Scissors) was, almost word-for-word, exactly what you described!

Having now googled this...I have let myself down.

Maybe that's not what DLC's typically are, but wouldn't it be better if that were something more developers pursued? Imagine if Bungie did a spin-off, 5 hour game set in the middle ages? Same engine, mostly cosmetic. Hell, most of it is already there! They already have a bundle of concept art for it!

That's the kind of additional content that would be worth spending money on, even if it isn't what we normally think of as DLC.

If you can play it standalone without any other game, it's its own game. Just a short and inexpensive one.

That has more to do with the business of games than anything else.

EDIT:

ITT: Arguing semantics - joy of joys!

This game isn't supposed to have a logical end point. The end point is when you decide to stop playing (or pause playing until they make more content) and then whenever they decide to stop making that content and make something else.

All games have logical end points:

1. You've conquered all the challenges. Beaten all the levels, done all the side quests, etc.
2. The story ends. If the game is narrative driven, the end of the story naturally concludes the game.

When you are that point, you want a sense of closure. After you've tackled all of Destiny's challenges, you don't feel that at all. As far as random ass challenges that involve you doing wacky things, I'd say if you are at that point you'd be better off trying a new unfamiliar game with new challenges. You're basically trying to eat every little crumb left instead of just getting a new cookie.

As someone who literally does that (not with the tiniest of crumbs, but most of them), and who still enjoys Destiny despite it having gotten samey, I think you just don't have the mindset to enjoy that type of experience fully, and you probably never will-- and that's fine, but you shouldn't go around saying that that mindset doesn't exist, or that something is wrong with it.

Of course, it turns out it was, and you did, which is again an endorsement of Bungie's design decisions and not a criticism of them.

Absolutely not. It is an endorsement of the Vault of Glass, and a condemnation of the hoops I had to go through to get there. I'm not sure how to make it any clearer.

How about with what you just said? Brevity is the soul of wit. Yes, that's a stolen statement, but it's short and to the point.

The only way his adjusting his approach would work is if he stopped believing that everyone but him is an idiot

I am sorry that I make you feel that way. You should know that while I disagree with Narcogen on a lot, he's not an idiot. He's actually pretty smart and I like hearing what he has to say. That's why we've been doing it for so long.

Believe me, if I think someone is an idiot, I will make that 100% clear, but I meet very few people actually like that.

It's the best part of the raid for you. Not for everyone. I'm rather glad I first ran Crota with a somewhat experienced team. Glad my first Vault run had Beorn to explain things to us after a few failures. Maybe you enjoy failing for hours on end, but I dont!

You actually do enjoy failure. Every single person who plays a video game does. In fact, video games rely on this. It's all explained in this book (which is very good by the way).

I'm thinking instead you don't enjoy the much larger challenge of figuring the raid out yourself, versus the easier challenge of doing it with instruction. And that's absolutely fine.

The only way his adjusting his approach would work is if he stopped believing that everyone but him is an idiot and that he alone has the one correct solution to a given problem.

I might believe he believed that if he was consistent in his behavior away from this forum, but I've found him not to be. I've enjoyed TALKING with Cody.

To me, that makes his behavior here all the more insulting! What is it about this place or text interactions that makes him think it's ok for him to be an outright troll here but not when he's talking live with you or others (who have also reported he is much better in person)? I really don't get it. I've always lived by the rule that I will only ever say things that I actually support. I won't ever say anything here or in private or on a tweet or blog or email that I won't say to your face. I see the split behavior you describe as a massive character flaw!

The only way his adjusting his approach would work is if he stopped believing that everyone but him is an idiot and that he alone has the one correct solution to a given problem.

I might believe he believed that if he was consistent in his behavior away from this forum, but I've found him not to be. I've enjoyed TALKING with Cody.

This only applies to people who have actually talked to Cody. I always assume that people are about %50 more reasonable in person than on the internet, but it's sometimes hard to remember that.

Yeah, of course I was referring only to me, but that doesn't take away from the point that I don't believe Raga's characterization. Cody does play that character here, and that's all some people know, but honestly, I liked Cody more just hearing his voice on Anger, Sadness, and Envy.

The most irritating part for me is, having heard his voice around the Halo speed-running community and knowing he can be thoughtful and introspective and funny, what we get on here is...less reasonable.