The fallen Archons What if when you got close to them, they picked you up (with one of their MANY free hands) and fucking threw your ass into a wall or something if you messed up a close range attack, instead of just stomping and whooshing you to death?

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What if you could board a fallen Walker, shimmy across the main gun, and chuck one of your grenades in there for a damage bonus?

yes please, especially the first one

My problem with them is how much the game works against you when using them, ESPECIALLY boss battles.

I should be able to get close to a boss and fire off several rounds without getting insta-killed by their AOE stomp attack.

All of them have it, it looks the same and it's fucking boring. They lunge forward, ring of force launches you back.

We have these interesting looking enemies, and yet no interesting way to fight them other than shooting them from a distance.

I started a replay of Metroid Prime, and I'm yearning for those kind of puzzle bosses again.

Imagine the following:

*Sepiks Prime: If you can land on top of him, and melee off a piece of his armor, you can then unload your shotty or AR into him. WAIT, you can't, because if you get with 10 feet of him he turns on his vacuum gun of death.

Vallaus: What if you could climb him god-of-war style and start bashing him in the helmet like Master Chief on the Prophet of Truth? Let's say that you need to get close to him, and then shoot him in the knees to get him to drop, then you can climb him and punch away

The fallen Archons What if when you got close to them, they picked you up (with one of their MANY free hands) and fucking threw your ass into a wall or something if you messed up a close range attack, instead of just stomping and whooshing you to death?

What if you could stun phogoth, get under him, and then wail on is stomach tonsil thing like a speed bag?

What if you could board a fallen Walker, shimmy across the main gun, and chuck one of your grenades in there for a damage bonus?

*This could be in ADDITION to how they are now, so you can still hang back and plink them in the head *

Every non-raid boss battle is so uninspired. There is no incentive beyond finding a high spot and just icebreaking them to death.

3) Thinking back to the last truly effective Bungie PvE shotgun (Halo 1), that was a really a combination of factors. You had an enemy (The Flood) that was nearly immune to snipers. You had a bunch of corridor/room crawls with said enemy. You had a shotgun with good range and a lot of ammo before needing to reload. And the enemy liked to drop ammo for that weapon.

Shotguns still won't be the weapon of choice in Destiny until we get an enemy like The Flood, and levels like the Library. Given that combination wasn't entirely popular, I 'm guessing it's on purpose.

I agree that there needs to be enemies that a shotgun is favorable for. More so, that snipers and longer ranged weapons aren't favorable for. Praetorian's are pretty good because they lack precision locations.

There are a few differences between PvE and PvP that make shotguns good in one and bad in the other.

1) Punishment for Death - In Crucible, death is an acceptable outcome. Sometimes you are just going to die, but you want the percentages to play out in your favor. A single death isn't always a big deal. The shotgun works pretty well for this. However, in PvP, a death can be a terrible setback, and the reward isn't worth the risk.

2) Enemy AI vs. Humans - Human opponents are equally dangerous from every range, and in some cases even more dangerous from further away. Human opponents can be tricked by feints and baiting at close range, while enemy AI tends not to be so complex. Enemy AI usually don't respond effectively to attack from long range: usually they either sit there or possibly ineffectively scatter. It's easy to pick them off, because they aren't waiting for you to pop over that hill like a human would. And enemy snipers are purposefully poor, as previous experience has shown players don't enjoy tackling auto-headshot enemies.

3) Thinking back to the last truly effective Bungie PvE shotgun (Halo 1), that was a really a combination of factors. You had an enemy (The Flood) that was nearly immune to snipers. You had a bunch of corridor/room crawls with said enemy. You had a shotgun with good range and a lot of ammo before needing to reload. And the enemy liked to drop ammo for that weapon.

Shotguns still won't be the weapon of choice in Destiny until we get an enemy like The Flood, and levels like the Library. Given that combination wasn't entirely popular, I 'm guessing it's on purpose. That being said, taking down Praetorians on the VoG with Swordbreaker is pretty satisfying.

It's not true that high damage is a problem in itself. Unavoiable high damage is a problem.
Contrast to Halo LASO:

• Hunters' weak point was in their back

I loved Shotguns in Halo because nothing was more enjoyable than dancing with a hunter. You just can't do that in Destiny. And it's because, as you mentioned, it's not the high damage, it's the unavoidable damage. If you got hit by a hunter, you were dead, but at least you could dodge it.

Despite some reports to the contrary, the AI in Destiny IS NOT dumb: I remember in one mission, standing on some pillars, and watching the Hive Thralls scatter out of view. They understand line of sight! That's SMART! I had to come down and engage them on their level.

I agree, they are smart, but there are some cases where the AI could be better, for example, the phalanx's are aptly named, yet they never actually create a phalanx formation, how hard would it be to kill them if they actually did? I mean, if you don't count a rocket launcher.

More bait-able Enemies - If I could get a Hive Knight to follow me, to separate them from enemies, at a close distance, that'd make shotgunning more viable. The health-regen-shield is practically begging for all-damage-done-at-once kills, but it's hard to go in close because they have back-up.
Weak-points on sides and backs - So you do a wicked side-step of that Cabal Phalanx, you're behind them, and now their head is away from you - ugh, reduced damage! A weaker area on their back would help.

This can done with the vex by taking their head off, because then they rage and charge you, so you can just take a shotgun to them. However in some cases that actually doesn't help.

More interesting shotguns/perks - Compared to Game Breaker and Infinite Hammer, everything shotgun-wise totally sucks. How about shogtuns with:
Punch Action - When equipped, melee kills have a chance to generate ammo to your reserve/directly to the magazine.
Stick/Fist Combo - Damage from this weapon temporarily increases the target's susceptibility to melee attacks (an obvious synergy, surely?)
Bunny-Shotter - This weapon reloads faster while you are airborne (imagine taking out a few Thrall, then jumping over them and reloading. I think it'd be funny :)
Backshot Shells - Does extra damage when firing into the back of an opponent

I totally agree with this. Most other weapon perks change the play style of the weapon at least a little bit, but for me shotguns have always been a:

• 1. Stick barrel in face.
  
• 2. Pull trigger.
  
• 3. If baddie is still alive, keep pulling trigger.

Overall I think that they did good with upping the damage of shotguns. It was needed. But it still doesn't solve the overall problem with using a shotgun in PvE

or maybe that's a +2? Are we counting guns or barrels? hmm.

Ain't that the truth. Could you imagine clay pigeon shooting with a shotgun from destiny?

For anyone who doubts the miracle of the modern shotgun:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOoUVeyaY_8

I don't get why that's not universal remote.

For anyone who doubts the miracle of the modern shotgun:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOoUVeyaY_8

Obviously in PVP they are pretty good, since people can one hit kill with them at 15-20 feet (this seems to be limited to Found Verdict).

For PVE, there needs to be an appropriate payoff. Like others I would like to see shotguns have a big stun effect standard, and they need to do far more damage to mobs. I would like to see their stun have varying levels of pushback dependent on impact, much like the sun singer melee power.

In the high end content like raids and nightfalls, the Majors and Ultras with their constant firing high splash damage guns are the main reason no one wants to get in close. Shotguns should specialize on these enemies.

We need some "on hit" perks that make ultras more inaccurate, slow their firing rate, or disorient them so the player who risked it all to get in close gets a payoff.

Range+cover obviously allows you to avoid the damage. Always, every time. It's basically a rule of FPS. But getting in close in Destiny often has some or all of these problems:

• Your target's attacks are unavoidable (Ultras' aforementioned AOE)
  
• Your target has friends who's attacks cannot be avoided / your target can't be isolated
  
• They're too mobile/hard to shotgun - like Hive Wizards
  
• (minor) You don't have right type of/any shotguns because you have too many Special weapons already.

In the remaining situations where a shotgun would be viable and effective, longer-range weaponry is also effective, but safer and easier to execute. A Fallen Captain for example: you can get in close to an individual, avoid their shots AND melee attacks, but they often don't take cover, so sniping wins.

Contrast to Halo LASO:

• Getting in closer was necessary since there were no anti-shield long-range weapons
  
• Elites took cover when their shields were down
  
• Melee had other benefits like ammo conservation, insta-kill back-smacks and shield-regen
  
• Hunters' weak point was in their back

Despite some reports to the contrary, the AI in Destiny IS NOT dumb: I remember in one mission, standing on some pillars, and watching the Hive Thralls scatter out of view. They understand line of sight! That's SMART! I had to come down and engage them on their level.

The problem is that the AI's capabilities aren't used often enough, effectively enough, to make a more diverse range of strategies more appealing and/or optimal.

There are class-specific options that help with close-quarters but it's like you have to build the entire class around it, whereas a sniper is effective in the same way, out of the box, for every class.

Here's a few ideas I came up with today:

Close-Encounter Environment Design - there are a few too many wide open plains. We need more close-combat areas with cover you can go between. That allows you to get in around, amongst and up in the faces of enemies.

Enemies that take cover - Take captains - why not make them a little more hidey?

More bait-able Enemies - If I could get a Hive Knight to follow me, to separate them from enemies, at a close distance, that'd make shotgunning more viable. The health-regen-shield is practically begging for all-damage-done-at-once kills, but it's hard to go in close because they have back-up.
What if they got health back in a lump at the end of their shield, rather than in pieces: so if you could get around their shields you could kill them before they actually got any health back from the shield?

Weak-points on sides and backs - So you do a wicked side-step of that Cabal Phalanx, you're behind them, and now their head is away from you - ugh, reduced damage! A weaker area on their back would help.
Or a tough Vex enemy with their 'juice-box' on their back would be good too.
Perhaps a boss who only exposes their weak-point after a melee attack? (Boss design is a whole other thing but yeah...)

More interesting shotguns/perks - Compared to Game Breaker and Infinite Hammer, everything shotgun-wise totally sucks. How about shogtuns with:
Punch Action - When equipped, melee kills have a chance to generate ammo to your reserve/directly to the magazine.
Stick/Fist Combo - Damage from this weapon temporarily increases the target's susceptibility to melee attacks (an obvious synergy, surely?)
Bunny-Shotter - This weapon reloads faster while you are airborne (imagine taking out a few Thrall, then jumping over them and reloading. I think it'd be funny :)
Backshot Shells - Does extra damage when firing into the back of an opponent

It's also ridiculous that I can switch to Ice Breaker, let it charge up, switch to Invective, and have more ammo than if I'd been wandering around with Invective!

Different aspect pairings/shotgun types - Right now, High Impact always seems paired with High Range (e.g. Found Verdict). Maybe that's wrong and a source of the PvP problems? Perhaps instead: more range should mean less impact. What about a shotgun that can take on a group of Thrall (larger mag, lower impact, greater range) and one for majors/shielded enemies (high impact, low range, low ROF, good staggering ability).

So, there should be a need to get close, a way to avoid getting blasted to pieces, and it actually needs to take down the target - otherwise snipers will probably remain king.

That said, double damage shotguns might still be worth screwing around with ;)

EDIT: This post evolved a lot as I was writing it. The Halo LASO comparison initially had more of a point. It's an example where the high risk of close-combat is actually effectively offset by a high reward, where skill mitigates the risk, and the rest of the sandbox isn't completely dominant. More could be said about that comparison but it's late now.

Here's more food for thought: Modern shotguns of 2015 are way, WAY superior to "space magic" shotguns of Destiny. They hold more rounds, have much longer ranges, and provide superior stopping power. The shotguns of destiny would be more aptly named blunderbusses.

This is very true, and for more video games than just Destiny (though in most cases, it's understandable in that it fits the game design). My shotgun is lethal from MUCH further away than a Destiny shotgun, for sure. But then, a slingshot is lethal from further away than a Destiny shotgun.

- Enemies are very far away from you, and have weapons with long ranges. Shotguns are a terrible idea in these situations.
- Enemies are very close to you, but there are scores of them. Shotguns simply don't hold enough rounds or reload fast enough to be effective in these situations.

Shotguns, as designed, are useful for one tactical situation:
- You are in a confined space, and there may or may not be a single, dangerous foe very nearby. You need quick target acquisition and high damage. Shotguns are ideal. As the game is designed, this situation only exists in PvP.

--

So how to make shotguns useful in PvE? They will have to be useful in the two sorts of tactical situations that the PvE game presents to you. Since it is highly unlikely that Bungie would redesign their encounters to present different tactical environments (though I wish they would), I'm going to focus on changes to the weapon.

First, shotguns will never be useful in tactical situation #1 (long range encounters). Nor should they be. They are a close-range weapon.

If shotguns were a guaranteed stagger or stun against any non-boss enemy, they would be useful in tactical situation #2 (close range, lots of baddies) as an "oh shit" button, to pull out and stun an enemy with in order to allow for a hasty retreat to cover. This could possibly result in coordinated teams chain-stunning a single enemy, which I'm sure Bungie wouldn't like, but as an individual player, this would be great. Shotguns would not be viable as weapons, however. They'd simply be escape facilitators. That's less than ideal.

Another option would be to give shotguns dramatically larger clips and faster reload times (basically making them short range auto rifles that don't need much aiming). Higher close range damage with steep damage fall-off. Basically an auto-shotty. 12 round magazine, reloads in 1.5 seconds. This would become the weapon of choice at close ranges. A shotgun would have to be equally effective as a hand cannon at close range, but would require less aim, thus rendering it superior in these situations. The damage drop off would prevent the shotgun from outshining hand cannons and medium to long range.

--

Here's more food for thought: Modern shotguns of 2015 are way, WAY superior to "space magic" shotguns of Destiny. They hold more rounds, have much longer ranges, and provide superior stopping power. The shotguns of destiny would be more aptly named blunderbusses.

So, PVE is only nightfalls, raids, and boss battles? News to me.

I never said that specifically, but we are talking about weapon balance for players participating in high level activities. Raids, Nightfalls, daily & weekly strikes, ROC playlists... These are the activities high-level players spend most of their time with. In all these activities, enemies deal heavy damage, making close-range engagements too dangerous to risk.

As Cody said, weapon balance for lower-level activities is less important, because everything dies so quickly. So of we're talking about precise weapon balance in PvE activities, we are inherently talking about high level play.