This is one of several reasons that I don't find Exotic weapons to be such a big deal overall. There are a select few that truly earn their exotic slot (Icebreaker, Gjallarhorn, perhaps Invective and Suros Regime for Crucible). Other than that, I prefer to focus on a good selection of maxed out legendary weapons, since I can mix and match them in whatever combination I want.

I also may be odd, but I almost never use my exotics while I'm leveling them. I just switch to them when I turn in bounties or just before the end of a mission for an XP drop or if I'm on patrol. I've never really felt that I've been grinding them as a result. They just come out fully leveled after about a week or so. I'm fine with churning out one exotic a week. Frankly any more would be overwhelming.

Obviously this doesn't address the feeling of starting over on something you've already invested into, but I guess I just never felt like I was grinding for exotics in the first place so the sting is a bit less.

Doing what you suggest could lead to a very cool game, but it would certainly sacrifice some of the RPG nature of Destiny; some of the personal choice and freedom. I LIKE the fact that we go in to the raid with 6 people, all of whom are able to select the weapons that work best for them in the rolls they have decided to play. If the raid required weapons X,Y & Z, it would become a far more predictable experience, would it not? As it stands right now, every time I play the raid with a different group we need to adjust our strategy because nobody has the same tool set.

I'm not saying you'd NEED specific weapons, just that you'd need to use all the tools available in original combinations.

I know I talk about Deus Ex a lot, but look at the end. Area 51. It's impossible to do unless you build up your character, however you can do it in a bunch of different ways depending on your build. Still, you are required to creatively use your augmentation and skill combos because the challenges are intense, and it's an impenetrable military fortress.

It's a shame. I love the strikes, the raid, and a bit of crucible from time to time, but most of the story missions are quite dull. I's taken me until now to get my 2nd character up to level 19 because I just can't stand replaying the 1-20 content. It really is awful compared to the endgame content.

If the story missions were more inherently enjoyable, I think a lot of the hate thrown at Destiny would never have existed.

I enjoy the story missions and look forward to seeing what's the new Daily every day. I now kinda view them as one big, unique Patrol mission with cool music.

That said, most of them don't measure up anywhere close to say, a Bungie Halo campaign level, but they're still good compared to your average game.

My favorites:

Earth: The Last Array - that final encounter with the music, dropships, and array opening really gets my trigger finger going!

Moon: Sword of Crota - ...cuzz sword. Back in my day, we didn't have swords showing up in every hole on Earth!

Venus: The Assassination of the Winter Kell (can't remember what the actual name of the level is at the moment, though I think it's the Daily right now)

And pretty much every Mars mission. I love the planet and its various skyboxes, and the Cabal and their music are the best in the game. It's probably also my favorite place to Patrol.

The introduction of the Vex and the very first level of the game were pretty great as introductions for new players, but they don't hold my attention much any longer.

I hope we get more unique activities for story missions in the future, taking us new places and fighting new things in a variety of ways. I'd also kill for some long, exciting vehicle segments! Here's hoping Expansion II will give Bungie enough time to attempt that. :)

Additionally: If the game is still fun once you do have that best gear, and you get really good at beating the highest level content...wouldn't it make sense that the next step would be trying to beat the hardest content with worse gear? And do you ever play the hardest content with gear that isn't as good now?

It's funny you should mention that. This has been pretty fun to watch.

-Disciple

Maybe a question to extrapolate from that: if the game is fun because of the challenge of beating the toughest content to get the best gear, is it less fun once you get the best gear? Why is it less fun?

So, on Tuesday night I ran the raid on normal with my level 30. I don't believe that running it on normal is really going to get me much to help me. To be completely honest, the drive to play that character lessened once I hit 30. I've been spending more time with my alts because I finally hit 30. A funny thing happened though, I had a blast playing through the raid on normal with my level 30. Why? I figure a couple reasons, 1- it was fun seeing how much tougher I am at 30, 2- The raid is just plain fun, working together with teammates to overcome a challenge. It's just good fun.

TL;DR: I still have lots of fun at level 30, but the drive/addiction for the upgrade is gone.

exotic weapon bounties should not be random.

Especially since the exotics have LORE to them. Great way to roll more of the Grimoire into the game! Make them sidequests.

oh man, what I would give for exotic bounties to be things you find like the dead ghosts, with friends helping you find one that you heard was awesome

This is what I expected when they said you'd have a story to tell when people asked about your awesome gear.

"I was doing the daily bounties when I happened to come across a lost ghost. It was long dead, but we were able to get information about where its guardian fell to a nearby group of Cabal. I fought my way through the Cabal camp and found the fallen guardian, but discovered that the group's commander had claimed a trophy from the defeated guardian and was promoted to lead an elite group of Cabal majors. My ghost was able to tap into Cabal radio communications and locate the commander and his new squad. After tracking him to the other side of the planet and fighting my way through wave after wave of Centurians and Collosus..es? Collosi? Whatever. There were lots of them. And I killed them all and their commander and I reclaimed the fallen guardian's weapon, the beautiful and deadly Gjallarhorn, as my own."

Instead we get, "I was playing crucible with a bunch of randoms and went 1 and 15 and this Godzilla horn thing shows up at the end. Pretty cool, right?"

It's a tiny bit disappointing.

-Disciple

Jason Jones has talked about his big regret with Halo; that players replayed those missions over and over and over, for nothing (other than the fun of the gameplay). He wanted Destiny to capture that same enjoyment, but to give the player rewards/stuff to do/goals to work towards while we replay the missions over and over.

Where things went a bit wrong, IMO, is that the average Destiny mission is extremely weak compared to the average Halo mission. They are not as inherently replayable.

I think everyone agrees about this. Unfortunate.

Really, if you removed the story missions, and all we had were patrol, strikes, the raid, and crucible, I don't think my gameplay would change one iota.

It's a shame. I love the strikes, the raid, and a bit of crucible from time to time, but most of the story missions are quite dull. I's taken me until now to get my 2nd character up to level 19 because I just can't stand replaying the 1-20 content. It really is awful compared to the endgame content.

If the story missions were more inherently enjoyable, I think a lot of the hate thrown at Destiny would never have existed.

Jason Jones has talked about his big regret with Halo; that players replayed those missions over and over and over, for nothing (other than the fun of the gameplay). He wanted Destiny to capture that same enjoyment, but to give the player rewards/stuff to do/goals to work towards while we replay the missions over and over.

Where things went a bit wrong, IMO, is that the average Destiny mission is extremely weak compared to the average Halo mission. They are not as inherently replayable.

I think everyone agrees about this. Unfortunate.

Really, if you removed the story missions, and all we had were patrol, strikes, the raid, and crucible, I don't think my gameplay would change one iota.

I think what I see as artificial inflation, you see as a difficulty curve?

Maybe. I think Destiny's real problem is that there aren't enough really well designed missions in the game. Most of them are decent enough, but there is an overall lack of variety that makes many of them less enjoyable to replay.

Jason Jones has talked about his big regret with Halo; that players replayed those missions over and over and over, for nothing (other than the fun of the gameplay). He wanted Destiny to capture that same enjoyment, but to give the player rewards/stuff to do/goals to work towards while we replay the missions over and over.

Where things went a bit wrong, IMO, is that the average Destiny mission is extremely weak compared to the average Halo mission. They are not as inherently replayable.

So what happens? People ARE replaying the missions like crazy, but why? The answer is of course: Loot. As soon as this dynamic is in place, anything that appears to harm, hinder, or add frustration to the acquisition of loot is seen as a big problem to the player. It's somewhat telling that a new expansion is on the way, and all anyone is talking about is the new gear (and of course the Raid). The new missions themselves are barely a blip on the radar.

I suspect that when Jones was cooking all of this up all those years ago, he was imagining a situation where the new missions would be what we were all excited for, while the loot was just the icing on the cake.

I wouldn't say that it would be less enjoyable, just different. I love Destiny's moment-to-moment combat (at higher levels... lower levels are a real drag). If you stripped out all the RPG progression mechanics and handed me Destiny: The straightforward Shooter, I think it would be very cool.
But I do really like the meta-narrative that forms in my head as I make my own personal progression through the levels. I love the feeling that comes with fighting tooth and nail to complete a mission, earning a sweet piece of gear as a reward, then coming back a week later with that weapon upgraded and cackling with glee as I use it to rip through the mission that gave me such a tough time before.

This feels like a good answer. It makes sense to me, I think, even if I feel the opposite way about it. I wonder if it's possible for Destiny to deliver on both; I certainly enjoy nightfalls because they force me to think differently after I've run out of vanilla challenges. I'm sure you enjoy tearing through those too.

I think what I see as artificial inflation, you see as a difficulty curve?

Additionally: If the game is still fun once you do have that best gear, and you get really good at beating the highest level content...wouldn't it make sense that the next step would be trying to beat the hardest content with worse gear? And do you ever play the hardest content with gear that isn't as good now?

I could see that being fun for some people. But Destiny, as it already exists, allows people to do this if they want to. You can go into the raid using nothing but green weapons if you're crazy enough :)

But resetting your progression and making you start from scratch on a weapon YOU ALREADY MAXED just so that it is competitive with other whatever the latest wave of exotics are is like the investment system equivalent of artificial difficulty.

I think the reason this doesn't bother me at all is because I never expected the old exotics to be able to compete with the new ones at all. That's not typically how RPGs work. You get new gear, it replaces the old gear. I think it's a bonus that they've included any form of upgrade path at all.

So if Bungie took away the grind, and made it simple to acquire high end gear...the game wouldn't be as enjoyable to you? What does that say about the game once you have that gear?

I wouldn't say that it would be less enjoyable, just different. I love Destiny's moment-to-moment combat (at higher levels... lower levels are a real drag). If you stripped out all the RPG progression mechanics and handed me Destiny: The straightforward Shooter, I think it would be very cool.
But I do really like the meta-narrative that forms in my head as I make my own personal progression through the levels. I love the feeling that comes with fighting tooth and nail to complete a mission, earning a sweet piece of gear as a reward, then coming back a week later with that weapon upgraded and cackling with glee as I use it to rip through the mission that gave me such a tough time before.

Maybe a question to extrapolate from that: if the game is fun because of the challenge of beating the toughest content to get the best gear, is it less fun once you get the best gear? Why is it less fun?

I don't find it less enjoyable. As I said, using the new powerful weapons is part of the fun for me. I think the people who play the game with more of a "completionist" approach are the ones who tend to lose interest as soon as they have the best stuff, because there is nothing new to chase.

I don't really have answers, and I don't know if there are, these are just the questions I think Bungie should be asking themselves, and I don't think they care.

I think it's safe to say they definitely are asking those questions... they just might be settling on answers that don't please everyone ;)

exotic weapon bounties should not be random.

Especially since the exotics have LORE to them. Great way to roll more of the Grimoire into the game! Make them sidequests.

oh man, what I would give for exotic bounties to be things you find like the dead ghosts, with friends helping you find one that you heard was awesome

so how about...

We know some of the new weapons do two colors of damage...

Our character subclass have "entirely" separate tech trees with separate progressions...

So...

For our current exotics add a new color of damage with its own, different, tech tree that is empty and needs to be maxed out.

You keep your old tech tree, as maxed out as it was before the DLC. You just gain a new subclass for your weapon.

Bungie gets the benefit of:

• not having to make new models
  
• not having to come up with new stories for each new exotic
  
• players expend just as much playtime on the new sub-class as they did on the old
  
• this mechanism is already familiar to players from character sub-classes

Players get the following benefits:

• they keep all their work investment/benefits spent on the previous sub-class
  
• they have a fully powerful weapon to use in hard stuff
  
• they can upgrade the new sub-class doing easy stuff (patrols)

It's a MAJOR win for Bungie and not so bad for players. Some may even think that it's a bargain.

-PS I feel dirty already for suggesting a way to double your playtime investment. I am a bad person.

exotic weapon bounties should not be random.

Especially since the exotics have LORE to them. Great way to roll more of the Grimoire into the game! Make them sidequests.

Some of them are an absolute chore to use until you get those perks.

I'm looking at you, Pocket Infinity.

Ugh, don't make me thing about it.

Some of them are an absolute chore to use until you get those perks.

I'm looking at you, Pocket Infinity.