Part of me expects and understands the counter-argument that they simply are correct that they should not play a game like Destiny then. But I think that only delays this question. This sort of mini rpg mechanic is getting more and more previlant (those friends first starting talking about this leveling mechanic as why they won't play a game starting with modern warfare and it has been a discussion more and more frequently since then as more and more game generes adopt it.)

This is perhaps the biggest surprise that I've seen in where games are turning. The leveling mechanic was initially designed to to have your avatar's skill improving over the course of the game, and not so coincidentally was often used in game types that were very simple, thus not leaving room for player skill to improve, so provided a sort of simulation of that.

For instance JRPGs are a very simple genre, and are essentially very easy strategy games. Because the strategy is easy, you cannot rely on upping the challenge as time goes on and having the player slowly master your game, because they would master the simple mechanics in 30 minutes. There's really no way to have a challenging boss except for ones that take a while to prepare for, by requiring time investment for gear and leveling.

The leveling mechanic where your avatar grows more powerful can be used for different purposes in games which are actually complex. Because they don't have to hide the game's simplicity, they can instead be used to improve games in various ways. For instance, in something like Metroid, your character gains new abilities through the items you acquire, which allows areas to be gated off until you have a certain powerup, enabling a more seamless progression of challenges. The player teaches himself how to tackle challenges in the initial areas, and by the time they learn they now get that powerup and can progress onto the harder areas.

Deus Ex uses progression in order to make players focus and choose how they want to tackle challenges. The final area in the game, Area 51, is pretty much an impregnable military fortress. This makes sense story wise, as well as within the game. It would be impossible to beat otherwise, so you have to utilize your character progression and augmentations to power yourself up in whatever way you see fit to tackle the challenges. You can sneak, survive the elements, hack and lockpick, or become a tank and go in gunning.

These examples are progression done right, because they add benefit to the game. As you progress in Deus Ex, you are simply given more points to put toward your character, and hidden augmentation canisters encourage exploration and enable alternative forms of interaction with the game world. It is itself a meaningful challenge, and more importantly, takes place during the course of playing the game and having fun.

I would say the big difference between progression systems done right versus those done wrong comes down to whether the barrier they create is fun to overcome. Your character is too weak to complete this section. Is getting strong fun to do? In Metroid, of course it is, since it means beating bosses, exploring, and acquiring the items you need. In Deus Ex, it's fun to overcome the barriers by planning your character and finding hidden augmentations.

The barriers in many modern games are NOT fun to overcome. What barriers does Destiny throw at you?

After you finish the game for the first time and hit level 20, you will probably be hurting for your respective classes' armor upgrade materials. In my case it is Saphire Wire. These are needed to upgrade your armor so you can get more light. How do you get more? You dismantle other armor. How do you get other armor? The best way seems to be to either do stupid shit like the loot cave, or to do strike playlists over and over. How much fun is it playing the same boring strike again and again?

Next, you end up with a lot of upgraded blue and you have a decent light level, but you are still not at 30. Your next barrier is getting Marks to buy legendary armor. There is a literal barrier here, as you can only acquire 200 per week. Acquiring marks is again done by doing boring repetitive shit. You are not yet powerful enough to do the more interesting nightfall strikes, so you again have to run the daily story missions, and strike playlists. Maybe you level up with a faction in the hopes of getting their armor, which in turn means doing boring repetitive bounties. How much fun is all that?

You are now THIS close to getting to play the raid, but now you are hurting for shards. How do you get shards? Again, do the same boring shit over and over.

Now you can play the raid! The raid is awesome. But why go through all that llisted above, when Bungie could have simply had a level 20 version of the raid? You've finished the game and learned how to play? Here have at another challenge.

Now you need raid gear. It's random. That means replaying the raid, which is not SO bad since it's fun and there's lots of roles you can try. Never defended the left conflux? Try it this time. Never gone in the portal to kill the gatekeeper? Give it a whirl. But you're still not getting what you need, and there is again a literal barrier of one time per week.

Now you weapons need upgrading, so you are always short on energy. How do you get more? Correct. Do boring repetitive shit.

Destiny's problem is that the barriers it throws at you are not fun to overcome.Your investment system can provide meaningful additional challenge if done right, or it can provide a boring, frustrating system you fight against rather than be asked to utilize and engage with.

The kicker, is that the FPS DOES NOT NEED ANY OF THIS, because it is not a shitty genre. JRPGs would be dead in the water without the systems, yet many FPS games function fine (better actually) without them. If your system is not going to enhance the game, it should simply be absent.

Part of me expects and understands the counter-argument that they simply are correct that they should not play a game like Destiny then. But I think that only delays this question. This sort of mini rpg mechanic is getting more and more previlant (those friends first starting talking about this leveling mechanic as why they won't play a game starting with modern warfare and it has been a discussion more and more frequently since then as more and more game generes adopt it.) Now, asking whether a game has this mechanic has become part of the prolegomena for many of them.

As Scarab noted, for many people time has a money value (often determined by salary) and the game developer asking them to farm, level or otherwise invest time into the game to be competitive or to not be a drag on a group is a difference without a distinction to asking them to pay more money. If the "time players" are happy because their hard work is not just de-valued by giving away upgrades they spent a long time on, and the "money+time players" are happy because they can pay what they see as a low or reasonable cost to get to where their time play friends are and get the group back together, and the developer is happy because more money and happy players, well, that's a scenario that has enough value that I expect we will need to confront it again in the future.

And in the name of connecting with friends I bought Destiny for MS and Sony platforms yet strangely I didn't feel nearly so bad about that idea that cost me 60 dollars as I do about this idea that costs someone else 1 dollar.

I also think it is important to distinguish this from micro pay in a game that is free to play otherwise as this would be a minor revenue source instead of the only source and therefore would not corrupt game decisions as strongly (hopefully) and this is not a situation where the payments bring pointless value (single player games don't have any of this value to equalizing player progress despite different availible time to invest I was discussing above).

Destiny made significant efforts to level the levels for pvp but almost not at all for PvE. I have "accidently" leveled two charectors past the point of their purpose because I have enough friends stuck at much lower levels than my main so I made alts to play with the lower level friends. I can join them for story missions, and to a lesser extent for strikes (if the game matchmakes a third it seems to match with the higher level and then they just feel like they are being drug along rather than playing along.) but that requires me to be playing for no benifit in-game. I don't mind so much but I know it make them feel left out and like a charity case. And there are fun experiences in the game they won't have access to because of level caps or because my willingness to play. With lower level friends does not extend to pulling a 26 along through VoG (nor to I think they would enjoy that experience).

But yeah, despite all that I hate the idea and would say no to it every time.

Then Bungie could start concentrate on making the time spent in Destiny more fun.

Will you just play PvP?

Not everything. You'll need to add in exotic weapon cores to this pack :-p

Those will be sold separately :-P

Another troubling thing about the Dark below. Yet more kinds of upgrade materials to grind for.

I would really like to see it removed, toned down, or somehow made easier. Sniper rifle that collects any materials you shoot? Yes please. Ability to set extractors that automatically gather a particular material over time? Yes please.

Let's say that tomorrow Bungie adds a new vendor that sells a Weapon Pack for 99¢ of real money. It contains:

212,500 XP
20,000 Glimmer
18 Ascendant Energy
64 Spinmetal
64 Helium Filaments
64 Spirit Bloom
64 Relic Iron

That's right--everything you need to instantly upgrade an Exotic weapon. Be honest, now: who would buy it?

Not everything. You'll need to add in exotic weapon cores to this pack :-p

Another troubling thing about the Dark below. Yet more kinds of upgrade materials to grind for.

. . . make more airplanes . . .

Are you a homebuilder?

I like to experiment with dollar tree foamboard and fun different glider ideas.
I've made a few powered too, but I can't remember the last "Kit" I built. :P

Cool. My brother and I are building a Vans RV-7 so when I saw "make more airplanes" I thought maybe you were an RV builder too.

. . . make more airplanes . . .

Are you a homebuilder?

I like to experiment with dollar tree foamboard and fun different glider ideas.
I've made a few powered too, but I can't remember the last "Kit" I built. :P

Thing is, I'd rather spend my time in Iron Banner while it lasts, so going to the Moon to literally run in circles for Helium is something I've been putting off for days.

I have refused to spend any glimmer this week while I save it to buy Iron Banner stuff. I have a fully EXPed Atheon's Epilogue, Jolder's Hammer, The Swarm, Fatebringer, Preadyth's Revenge, IB Boots and Gauntlets, and an extra set of Raid Boots that I just need to drop glimmer, mats, and ascendants into from this weeks play. However, I'm keeping all glimmer until the Iron Banner ends.

There is a SLIGHT downside from the developer's perspective, in that they lose one of the things that causes players to put extra time in.

The thing is, I would still be putting the same amount of time into the game, I would just be spending it doing stuff I enjoy rather than farming :)

yeah, I'm 29 and have a bunch of gear the needs Helium crap to upgrade to 30 - it's all XP'd up, but just need the Helium to actually upgrade it all. Thing is, I'd rather spend my time in Iron Banner while it lasts, so going to the Moon to literally run in circles for Helium is something I've been putting off for days.

-Disciple

Other than that, it would have to be just for the Energy. I don't mind scavenging for Planetsutffs.