Twice actually, 2 energies each . after about 30 mins of chest farming on the moon, while waiting on public events to drop.

I can confirm this happens, I just got one in the Ishtar Commons on Venus (along with a bunch of other stuff, at least half a dozen chests spawned in the area).

- I have never received a purple engram
- I have never had a blue engram decode to a Legendary item
- I have never gotten a random purple weapon drop
- I do not have enough marks to buy Legendary weapons
- this will be the first week that I have enough coins to buy something from Xur (unless his prices have gone up)
- I have earned a total of 3 Ascendant Shards in all playtime, combined, so fully upgrading the Legendary armor I have is impossible

The RNG doesn't like me very much - so I'm happy that I enjoy the actual gameplay. :) Someday I might even get reasonable weapons (and armor!).

Completely forgot about the damage drop... Yeah, I'll take a fast reload over a stream of ammo guzzling rounds that hit like a depressurizing hose...

This, 100%.

Without being able to check, I'd be almost certain the big mag has not been grandfathered. It seems to me that this is a PvP nerf; as stated before, this isn't a huge issue in PvE, but I imagine the effect in PvP will be significant (no more triple kills via mad flailing and a near bottomless clip).

Correct, all Pocket Infinities have been changed. Here's mine:

Before patch:

After patch:

Also, like stated above, it was a good place to knock out bounties, and get public events.

i see why Bungie "fixed" it, but I also don't understand all the hate for the people that utilized it. It was there, it was part of the game, there was no glitching involved, you weren't disrupting other players, you weren't griefing, etc.

Weird, mine doesnt have the Stability upgrade, so the bar is not full, but it certainly didn't feel like it was unstable. Not quite pinpoint, but close enough for my purposes.

Its possible they've changed the upper Stability limit? Being used to the previous 100% going to the new one might be a more noticeable difference (going from pinpoint to not-pinpoint) than going from 75% (just good) to the new 75% (still good)?

Or Im mistaken and Im misremembering its old Stability, of course.

Yeah, I bet it's a bigger difference for me since I could bore a hole in an enemy from a long way off. And I think it's still pretty stable, but the change was definitely noticeable for me.

Don't you just love anecdotal evidence? LOL

- CC

I haven't tested this fully, but I pulled out my Shingen E last night and test fired it and noticed a big difference in stability. (My stability bar is full, btw.) I'm not sure how that will translate practically, but shooting it into the ether I could tell a big difference. I was getting some of that climb and to the right or climb and to the left you saw in less stable ARs before the patch.

- CC

Weird, mine doesnt have the Stability upgrade, so the bar is not full, but it certainly didn't feel like it was unstable. Not quite pinpoint, but close enough for my purposes.

Its possible they've changed the upper Stability limit? Being used to the previous 100% going to the new one might be a more noticeable difference (going from pinpoint to not-pinpoint) than going from 75% (just good) to the new 75% (still good)?

Or Im mistaken and Im misremembering its old Stability, of course.

From a qualitative viewpoint, my Shingen-E is still an insanely accurate, stable monster.. So they cant have changed Stability that much.

*shrug*

I haven't tested this fully, but I pulled out my Shingen E last night and test fired it and noticed a big difference in stability. (My stability bar is full, btw.) I'm not sure how that will translate practically, but shooting it into the ether I could tell a big difference. I was getting some of that climb and to the right or climb and to the left you saw in less stable ARs before the patch.

- CC

*shrug*

It may be that the way Stability is calculated/represented has changed, and they have worse Stability but you can't tell by looking at the bars.

Probably this. It seems like the weapons' stat bars are just relative to that weapon class, rather than being an overall representation - for instance, most sniper rifles I come across have a much smaller "impact" bar than my hand cannon, yet do more damage per shot (even with similar attack ratings). If that's true for ARs, it might mean when the base stability was changed, it affected the way the stability stat displays.

Then activate nearby mission beacons for rewards to kill enemy.

Pick up a LOT of encrypted engrams,

Rack up Grimoire kills.

Have maybe 6 guardians available for public events (you did pick up the bounty for the 3 publics?)

And there was an intense fight that kicks off now and then when hive go at fallen. You can super loot the hive spawn room 20 feet from where you fire especially if you have a couple of titans at hand. Immediate supper refills for all.

Do it at the start of the day with friends and have a chat whilst doing it. Catch up with their day and do all the bounties before teaming up to do story missions, strikes, etc.

It was too convenient and pleasant and such a time saver. It had to be stopped.

Grind systems aren't about fun - that is not the psychology of it. We are addicted to grinds because, prior to science life was all about the grind to get by. Animals that didn't like the suck didn't do it and didn't prosper.

My Shingen is unchanged, my Surrender is arguably better than before, and Scout Rifle DpS has gone up from 117-ish to 127-ish.

The biggest change is the AR crit damage, which you'll only notice when going up against a non-AR weapon. Which you rarely do, because everyone is still running around with the same gear as before (all ARs) presumably because the masses dont know/dont care about the hotfix.

But just because someone is looking to game the system doesnt mean they dont like the system.

OTOH 20 seconds of a bunch of guardians unloading into a cave makes the point too well. Bungie couldn't tolerate the negative publicity that that image provides. They had to fix it.

But the point still stands that these people would rather do this incredibly boring stupid activity than engage with the investment system as Bungie intended. This is proof right there that the investment system is so bad, people would rather shoot into a cave for hours than play with it. People are literally saying "Your investment system is even worse than pulling nothing but right trigger for 2 hours straight."

This is not just a few wackos, but a large enough segment of the player population that it became a big deal. At one point, I could not go to skywatch without seeing people in front of that cave.

Sure, except, again, there are multiple reasons for that, which have been brought up almost every time the cave or similar areas have been talked about: maybe it's because it's something mindless to do for a while, maybe all the better to do with friends; maybe they like shooting at things without stress or difficulty; maybe it's just something about all the shiny objects, or all the new loot, regardless of usefulness; maybe they like the intended overall process and they just want to mix things up a bit or speed up part of it. You're putting a decent amount of effort into fitting this (and nearly everything about Destiny) into your philosophical paradigm of investment systems being bad instead of looking for reasons. I mean, you could be right, but that's something you should conclude after you've looked at the data-- in this case, what was actually going through the heads of people doing this, what their actual reasons were-- and this is one issue (one of relatively few) where it seems like you're not.

OTOH 20 seconds of a bunch of guardians unloading into a cave makes the point too well. Bungie couldn't tolerate the negative publicity that that image provides. They had to fix it.

But the point still stands that these people would rather do this incredibly boring stupid activity than engage with the investment system as Bungie intended. This is proof right there that the investment system is so bad, people would rather shoot into a cave for hours than play with it. People are literally saying "Your investment system is even worse than pulling nothing but right trigger for 2 hours straight."

No. People are shooting into the cave. They are not literally saying ANYTHING.

In fact, your 'literal statement' is actually your belief of what their motivation is - and it's pretty simplistic. They could very easily be saying "I really want X gun, but don't have time to earn it the way Bungie intended me to. I'm going to farm engrams for a while in the hopes that I get it faster - or that I earn enough OTHER stuff that I can buy it." Which is absolutely not the same thing.

Someone already did the math to prove that loot caves are actually not successful at getting people what they want - but it doesn't stop them from trying. Just like explaining to someone that the chances of winning the powerball jackpot are 375 million to one or something (meaning you have a better chance of getting hit by lightning, twice, in your bedroom, than you do of winning the jackpot) won't stop some people from buying tickets in the hopes of winning.

The investment system is not to your liking - but that doesn't make it bad, and it is not true that everyone who tries to game it thinks it's bad.

Bungie said the loot cave didn't fit their vision of how you should be playing their game. They said they don't want you farming. I believe them. They want you playing via the investment system's drawn out process instead. :P

That last sentence is your spin on their motives, but one could just as easily say that they don't want you doing stupid stuff just to get loot. Maybe they're hoping you'll find enough fun in the game and think of the loot is merely icing on the cake. Yes, they designed progression to work at a certain pace and have fixed some exploits that subverted that plan. But you've repeatedly reduced everything to that purpose, and claim that as Bungie's only motive. I quote:

The thing is, this change [to the Raid] was not made because there are some people out there who can't beat it and found an easier way, but Bungie wants to keep the thing difficult. Bungie did it because the people who have conquered the Raid are now finding ways to get gear and items quickly and to beat the thing quickly. Those people have already beaten the Raid numerous times. It's investment system protection, mixed in with what you're implying in defense of "we want this Raid to be hard all the way through" because god forbid it isn't hard and taking up all your time once you've beaten it like fifty times.

But maybe Bungie really does want to the Raid to remain a challenge because challenges are fun, exciting, and add meaning to the game, and maybe that really is their primary motive for fixing exploits and removing easy buttons. Maybe one way to think of the investment system is that it is an extra feature designed to provide a way for users to demonstrate (in-game) that they had met certain challenges, and yes, perhaps Bungie doesn't want to see the significance of that gear and armor devalued, but that doesn't cancel out what could be their primary motive. (And Vagueness, notice my language here: I'm not saying I know their motives, and if I ever I did, I hope I based it on what they've actually said.)

Maybe this has something to do with the gambling gene, and maybe for some people the investment system is truly a bad thing because it becomes their primary focus, the only thing they can think about, and their primary reason for playing the game. I've never gambled, and frankly I was a bit worried about Destiny for the same reason I avoided WoW out of fear that I could become one of those people whose life is ruined by a video game. So far, so good. I think I'm someone for whom the investment system is a supplement to the game, but not the reason I play. I quit a Raid this past weekend in part because I had chat issues, but I had played all the way to the Atheon fight, and if loot was such a driving force for me, I think I would've tried to tough it out.

The amount of cynicism expressed about Destiny, though, rubs me the wrong way--all the final pronouncements made about it, as if it will be the same game a month from now that it is today. It's not enough to say I'm disappointed with public events so far, it's that they have been shown to be BS! I've got my own disappointments, sure, but the pessimism is what I can't abide. I was disappointed with Halo 2, but Bungie made good, and gave me a final fight in Halo 3 and a great urban environment in ODST. I have hopes for the future of Destiny, but a bright future is not really possible, or at least that seems to be gist of many posts. There's lip service paid to "fixing the investment system," but in the same post oftentimes investment systems are identified as the contagion that cannot be in the game without ruining it. Same deal with Activision's involvement, people leaving the company (and idle talk related to that), and the rest of it. Yes, Avateur, you and others have expressed notes of optimism, but they don't always come across as genuine. It's like, "Gosh, I sure hope Bungie can turn this thing around, but here's why they can't!"

Constructive criticism is good. Assuming you know what Bungie's goals and intentions are and making them into an enemy who is out to get our money doesn't strike me as particularly constructive.

Kermit

Taking out legitimate strategies just because some people exploited them is really pissing me off.

I do not like the Templar Cheese strategy; it is slower and less fun than the alternative.

That being said, I agree with you that it's just a clever way to make the boss fight easier. When you are given a problem to solve, "How do I kill this boss", players are free to solve that however they see fit.

The "they don't value your time" argument has a leg to stand on for games with ongoing fees, but it loses a lot of credibility when talking about Destiny.

This is not true. It can apply to anything.

Bungie is making a game that is supposed to be entertaining. I am choosing to spend my time playing Destiny, as opposed to other games, or other activities.

A good developer will recognize this, and try to make their game as entertaining as possible; they will try to make the time spent with the game fun, and worthwhile, and worthy of my choice to give it my time.

When developers do not value my time, they stretch things out, pad the game, or create investment systems where time, not skill, is the primary way to advance. These things are NOT fun, and instead should be shunned and discarded. There is no reason why you have to farm resources to upgrade your armor to advance your level. It is not fun, and the only reason it is included is to make the game take longer.

But if Bungie had any sense, they would stop and realize that it's just wasting people's time. They don't care. If they did, they would try to make every part of the game fun, and engaging. They literally don't care if you waste your time on boring shit, because they leave that in the game, and worse, built the game around it.