If this is on-disc content, even if in the process of being updated, I wonder if they're going to try selling me content that I already purchased just by buying the game.

Statements like this make me really angry.

You're not owed access to everything that's on that disc. You bought a copy to run it on your console the way it's meant to run. That was the bargain.

He didn't say he was owed that, he just said he didn't like this arrangement, and he didn't even go that far in the post you replied to. Statements that lump together other statements just because they were made by people that kind of agree make me upset and disappointed.

The disc and the case itself is your property, you can do what you like with it: sell it, lend it to a friend, smash it to tiny pieces. But the data on it is not yours. Never was. Never will be.

It was until now. Destiny is the first game I can remember playing that had a EULA. That said, it does have one, and everyone that's played it agreed to it.

Games are not other media like books or movies.

There are dozens of barriers and walls of all sorts of kinds blocking access to different stuff in the games. You're not owed access to every Exotic weapon, and you're not owed access to every room of geometry.

Sometimes, yes, one of the barriers developers can and do put up is the paywall.

Was this was new and weird and scary early on in the 360/PS3 generation? Absolutely. But it's been years already. But the DLC revolution happened. The Microtransaction happened. The Smart Phone revolution has happened. The AppStore happened. In-app purchases happened. People should have gotten used to it by now. Software is not like other media. Games are not like other media.

The thing about that is, other than bug fixes, I have yet to see a compelling reason why software in general and games in particular shouldn't be like all other media.

It is not down to Bungie to itemise every single asset that ended up on the disc and say how you can access each piece or why it's there; that's not the experience they're selling. Nobody sells that.

Oh no: the evil Bungie Corporation is using foresight and planning to make the expansion content fit seamlessly with the rest of the game and (probably) reduce download sizes later on so paying customers can get to it quicker without impacting the experience they already sold to everyone else.

Extra stuff on the disc does not diminish what they already sold to you. In fact in this case, you can even get in there and play it anyway for no additional cost! BONUS!

Let's be real here, we're not intended to get in there. Also it does diminish what they sold to you, strictly speaking-- you got all of it, but they only actually sold you part of it.

If you didn't think you were going to get your money's worth, you shouldn't have bought it. If you don't think you GOT your money's worth, then sell it or don't buy the expansions.

This is NOT going to change by bitching on a forum about it.

TL/DR: It's stand practice. You weren't screwed over. Get used to it.

The thing is, sales numbers only tell you so much. Realistically, you have to do research to know why they're down, and seeing what people are talking about is easier, quicker, and more organic or natural than going out and doing interviews and surveys. Of course, people could just e-mail Bungie, but I almost never see that mentioned in arguments like this, the points made are all about not having it wherever the people that don't like it are at (e.g. "bitching on a forum" or complaining on the current site or in this part of the site) or not making complaints at all (e.g. "You weren't screwed over. Get used to it.").

Cody wasn't even CLOSE to right (at least, not as far as I'm concerned).

Game's still enjoyable.

It is for me too. So long as I play Crucible or the raid on Hard Mode. Soon it will just be the crucible, but hopefully by then I'll have another raid to play :-)

But it won't fit seamlessly. It will be a piecemealed mess like all DLC, because that's the nature of DLC. Even highly regarded DLC like Ellie's side story in Last of Us would have been better woven into the game.

I strongly disagree.

Game's still enjoyable. I suppose the day might come when it's not. And maybe Cody will be there to say "see? I told you you'd get tired of it." And I'll say "Cody, it outlasted you by YEARS."

It is really enjoyable. Also, you'll be saying Cody Was Right a lot once you get to the Raid. It's freaking awesome. I'm almost all the way through it, I think. Not sure. Still spoiler free!

(That's not true. In real life, Cody's not NEARLY as annoying as he can be here. :) )

Lol these things happen. Neither am I, but hey. :P

Game's still enjoyable. I suppose the day might come when it's not. And maybe Cody will be there to say "see? I told you you'd get tired of it." And I'll say "Cody, it outlasted you by YEARS."

(That's not true. In real life, Cody's not NEARLY as annoying as he can be here. :) )

Oh no: the evil Bungie Corporation is using foresight and planning to make the expansion content fit seamlessly with the rest of the game and (probably) reduce download sizes later on so paying customers can get to it quicker without impacting the experience they already sold to everyone else.

But it won't fit seamlessly. It will be a piecemealed mess like all DLC, because that's the nature of DLC. Even highly regarded DLC like Ellie's side story in Last of Us would have been better woven into the game.

There is a difference between being wrong about what will happen in the future, and what exists right now.

If I tell you "I'm going to the store tomorrow", and don't end up going, that doesn't mean that when I spoke I was lying.
If I tell you "I didn't go to the store yesterday", then I am making a statement that is either true or false AND I know what the answer is AND nothing anyone can do will change that fact.

Also, no where did Bungie promise that on day one all planets ever mentioned would be accessible. What Bungie did say was that they'd be working on and adding to the Destiny universe for 10 years. I really don't understand why people have their panties in a wad over this sort of stuff. It's like not getting to see the Dragon in the first movie for the Hobbit. Just. Hold. On.

That's not why it's different. Saying you'll do something and not doing it for several years is disingenuous. The reasonable assumption is that the stuff they talked about pre-release all related to the first released game, because why would they talk about later stuff when they hadn't even put out the first game yet? I mean broad, long-term plans, maybe, but anything beyond that would be spoilery.
It is different (and Cody even admitted this at one point so I don't know why he's still harping on it) because it sounded like an off-hand comment, it sounded like someone rattling off locations without a ton of concern for accuracy, and Saturn wasn't the driving point of the statement it was in. The fact it was in a video that was presumably checked by multiple people before being released lessens that factor, though, as does Bungie mentioning Saturn and Mercury at other points.

If they had masked their WIP content from the release build, rather than just close it off, would that make this okay?

If it's all available on-disc, no. I purchased the game. Expansions expand the game with new content. I'll pay for expansions for new content that I didn't already pay for when I bought the game.

I never got a chance to get back here last night, and RC has pretty much made any argument I would have made, so I'll leave this part alone.

Skip car examples. When you buy new shoes, do you have to pay for the laces and insoles in order to have them included? Nope.

I just bought two new toilets for our remodel.

They don't come with seats.

I was flabbergasted, because what the hell use is a toilet without a seat?

But apparently, that's standard.

You can whine about it, but it's how the industry works.

And as RC said very well, you didn't pay for that partially-complete content on your disc that may or may not evolve into a DLC expansion.

This is a complaint about DLC though, NOT a complaint about including it in the game data.

Correct. IF this shows up in the DLC missions, and IF it's not substantially bigger of an area, THEN Bungie has some 'splaining to do. If it's just an area that was cut and we never go to, it's all fine and dandy.

Tons of scripting, testing, and tuning goes into each of these spaces. It's like looking over the wall at an amusement park and asking why you can't ride that rollercoaster yet because you see that there's a path to it and from what you can tell, the car goes on it just fine.

Given that all of the events so far have been recycled shit, I was hoping that their updates to the game would give us this new stuff. Scripting and placing guys in the space is much less work than building the space to begin with.

Lots of talk and optimism about DLC and trusting Bungie and such, but it's beyond clear that the game we were marketed isn't the game we were sold. That doesn't mean I'm not enjoying the game I was sold, but it makes me extremely less likely to want to drop money on their expansions and content because it already can't be trusted.

This is a great summation of how I'm feeling too. Destiny is still a ton of fun for me, but is disappointing in some ways. Most importantly though, whatever Bungie advertises The Darkness Below as, I'm not going to trust that that's what they will deliver. The only piece of hard evidence supports their inability to deliver.

They can certainly convince me otherwise though, I'll just need more evidence :)

How about this. You bought your car and the car can go a top speed of 80mph (don't ask me why). Unfortunately for you, this car you bought will only go 60mph unless you're willing to shell out more to access the rest of your engine.

This is an actual thing that exists.

I had a Chevy truck with an aftermarket 4.11 geared rear end. It also had an aftermarket chip to account for the gearing for the speedometer. I took it in to a dealership to fix the transmission after I wore it out drag racing with some buddies.

For whatever reason the shop over wrote my chip when they fixed my transmission. The default program was for a 3.73 geared rear end. That meant my speedometer read way faster than I was actually going. Plus it put the governor back on. I nearly got run over on the interstate when I left the shop. I gave them an earful, but they couldn't fix it. I had to go buy another chip.

So, yeah, I've had to do exactly what Avateur said. But that's totally different than having part of a DLC package on the disc.

Although that the content is loadable, there's no actual story content in there. Why should it be open at all if it doesn't actually serve a purpose yet?

"I don't even have time to explain why Bungie don't have time to put story content into the game . . ."

If this is on-disc content, even if in the process of being updated, I wonder if they're going to try selling me content that I already purchased just by buying the game.

Statements like this make me really angry.

You're not owed access to everything that's on that disc. You bought a copy to run it on your console the way it's meant to run. That was the bargain.

The disc and the case itself is your property, you can do what you like with it: sell it, lend it to a friend, smash it to tiny pieces. But the data on it is not yours. Never was. Never will be.

Games are not other media like books or movies. There are dozens of barriers and walls of all sorts of kinds blocking access to different stuff in the games. You're not owed access to every Exotic weapon, and you're not owed access to every room of geometry.

Sometimes, yes, one of the barriers developers can and do put up is the paywall.

Was this was new and weird and scary early on in the 360/PS3 generation? Absolutely. But it's been years already. But the DLC revolution happened. The Microtransaction happened. The Smart Phone revolution has happened. The AppStore happened. In-app purchases happened. People should have gotten used to it by now. Software is not like other media. Games are not like other media.

It is not down to Bungie to itemise every single asset that ended up on the disc and say how you can access each piece or why it's there; that's not the experience they're selling. Nobody sells that.

Oh no: the evil Bungie Corporation is using foresight and planning to make the expansion content fit seamlessly with the rest of the game and (probably) reduce download sizes later on so paying customers can get to it quicker without impacting the experience they already sold to everyone else.

Extra stuff on the disc does not diminish what they already sold to you. In fact in this case, you can even get in there and play it anyway for no additional cost! BONUS!

If you didn't think you were going to get your money's worth, you shouldn't have bought it. If you don't think you GOT your money's worth, then sell it or don't buy the expansions.

This is NOT going to change by bitching on a forum about it.

TL/DR: It's stand practice. You weren't screwed over. Get used to it.

How about this. You bought your car and the car can go a top speed of 80mph (don't ask me why). Unfortunately for you, this car you bought will only go 60mph unless you're willing to shell out more to access the rest of your engine.

This is an actual thing that exists.

This is a complaint about DLC though, NOT a complaint about including it in the game data.

Correct. IF this shows up in the DLC missions, and IF it's not substantially bigger of an area, THEN Bungie has some 'splaining to do. If it's just an area that was cut and we never go to, it's all fine and dandy.

Tons of scripting, testing, and tuning goes into each of these spaces. It's like looking over the wall at an amusement park and asking why you can't ride that rollercoaster yet because you see that there's a path to it and from what you can tell, the car goes on it just fine.

Personally I'll wait for them to say it's ready, and then it'll be ready for me.

I have no issues with this and find most of these arguments insultingly reductive of the massive amount of effort it takes to make a game.

The difference is with software you are buying a license to use said software, you're not actually buying the physical disc, that's just the device they use to get the software to your computer (of any kind). If they said ahead of time "Here are all of the activities and locations that come included with Destiny" and then you found out that some of those activities (which are included on the disc) cost an additional fee, that's dishonest and appalling.

I don't know about that. Buying the physical disk is a different scenario than buying the digital version of a game (which, in XBL's case, is a license that can be revoked on ban). See the Xbox One DRM fiasco of 2013.

Yeah they are two different licenses, but you're still buying a license to the game. That's why they can have terms of use for software. You don't buy a physical product with terms of use, because you can use the product in any way that you want, and the company you bought it from can't do anything about it. However even with a phyiscal disc copy of an Xbox game you can get in varying amounts of trouble for breaking the terms of use (for example copying the disc and giving it to someone else, even for free).