I hear all they got were shaders

:-p

I thought you were joking.
http://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/2glckt/congrats_to_primeguard_for_their_worldfirst_clear/ckk7cvn

Please don't take this as a personal insult, because it's absolutely not intended that way.

I don't think you understand the meaning of "show, don't tell". It doesn't literally mean that. It means that there needs to be supporting evidence for a claim. So if Bungie says the game begins after level 20, they need to provide evidence for that to demonstrate WHY the claim is true. Otherwise, they're just telling you, not showing you.

I have to laugh because for some reason people think they have to keep explaining "show, don't tell" to me, and the concept has been ingrained in me since I was a kid and started reading writers write about writing.

I don't mean to insult you, but I think you're not understanding me and the point I was making, which maybe isn't that different than the point you are making now. I prefer evidence, and I prefer experience, and for some games I'd rather not get a lot a communication before I play it, and I'd rather just experience it. The way you keep misstating what Bungie said about the game, you seem quick to jump to conclusions about what the words they say mean or meant, and maybe that's what you're doing to me now.

I wasn't talking specifically about the "begins at 20" stuff when I said I'd rather be shown, not told, but how could they have communicated that better, by showing us a film of the Raid before release?

That would be a hell of a trade-off, I think, especially since today Cody, who doesn't seem to mind spoilers very much, says that not knowing things about the raid ahead of time adds to the fun. So no thanks, I don't want the evidence before I get to experience it for myself.

You're not the first person to not like Bungie's secrecy just like many people don't like Apple's secrecy. That's a valid complaint, but there are benefits to letting us be surprised, and I'm one of the people who appreciates the benefits.

I don't think you understand the meaning of "show, don't tell". It doesn't literally mean that. It means that there needs to be supporting evidence for a claim. So if Bungie says the game begins after level 20, they need to provide evidence for that to demonstrate WHY the claim is true. Otherwise, they're just telling you, not showing you.

I hear all they got were shaders

:-p

I was unaware that they said that before the reviews came out.

I didn't poison the well for anyone. We all played for a few days on our own and then met up to go to a movie and talked about it on the way there. Our general impressions were, by and large, the same. The core gameplay rocks, the level design is repetitive, the story is almost nonexistent (minus Grimoire, which is a problem of its own for reasons I have already discussed), the grinding is boring.

The only major disagreement we had was Crucible. About half of us (myself included) love Crucible, and the other half think it is unbalanced to the point of being completely broken. So half of my friends were actually more negative than me, if you can believe that.

EDIT: Yes, I'm saying that interpretation of the level 20 comment was wrong. But a lot of people got that impression from them. So it's still a failure of communication. Bungie just needs to be more open instead of being coy for the sake of being coy.

In that particular case, it's not a failure on Bungie's part--it's ignorance and assuming the worst on the part of people who thought that. It's very hard to communicate effectively if people don't trust your motives.

You might be right about the coyness. You wouldn't be the first to say this.

I think they're damned if they do and damned if they don't, especially with all the press and given the big business that gaming has become.

I prefer not knowing that much about games I've got good reason to think I'll like, and being surprised and delighted. To adopt another theme from recent thread, I like to be shown, not told. I think Bungie tried to show us with the beta. When everyone's talking about a game the way they have about Destiny, it becomes a massive game of telephone, and it's very challenging to control the message.

At least give it a try. Power through the grind just once and see what the raid has to offer. It's worth it.

No, like I literally can't. Don't have 5 friends who play on 360.

I like the decision to require friends, it allows the gameplay to be as interesting as it is. It just also precludes people from playing it.

I didn't poison the well for anyone. We all played for a few days on our own and then met up to go to a movie and talked about it on the way there. Our general impressions were, by and large, the same. The core gameplay rocks, the level design is repetitive, the story is almost nonexistent (minus Grimoire, which is a problem of its own for reasons I have already discussed), the grinding is boring.

The only major disagreement we had was Crucible. About half of us (myself included) love Crucible, and the other half think it is unbalanced to the point of being completely broken. So half of my friends were actually more negative than me, if you can believe that.

EDIT: Yes, I'm saying that interpretation of the level 20 comment was wrong. But a lot of people got that impression from them. So it's still a failure of communication. Bungie just needs to be more open instead of being coy for the sake of being coy.

IMO, Bungie's biggest problem has always been a failure to communicate what they're doing. Internally, they seem very focused and organized, but they're not very good at letting the outside world in on their plans. They said the game starts at level 20, but everyone just figured they were in damage control mode after all the negative reviews came out. Anecdotally, a majority of my friends have already given up on this game. That includes people who never played it at all as well as people that played enough to attain level 23. They're not coming back. To me, that represents a disastrous failure to communicate.

If they've been exposed to the negativity from you that we have, then I don't doubt the well has been poisoned for them.

They said the game starts at level 20 before the reviews came out, so I don't know how "everyone" just had the interpretation that you claim they had. Regardless, I find the interpretation depressing and cynical. This "everyone" must be fun at parties.

Effective communication is not about what you say, it's about how other people respond to what you say.

If you're going to criticize their communication, at least be accurate about what the communication was and when they said it. This isn't the first post in which you've incorrectly paraphrased them.

EDIT: It just occurred to me that maybe you were saying that they were trying to pre-empt negative reviews with the "game begins at 20" stuff. I still find that interpretation depressing. And now I think even you say it was a wrong interpretation.

I am both excited by this and pretty confident I will only ever be an extra handicap to my fireteam

I don't even think the type of challenge is for everyone. You will fail super hard until you figure it out. If you just like to shoot things, you won't have that great a time. You really have to enjoy problem solving and mastery.

Your post makes me realize that with everything since launch, if I'm Bungie I'm sticking to my guns with whatever plans I have over the coming weeks and months. Knee jerk reactions to negative/disappointed feedback would be a mistake. Not to say careful, deliberate, and thoughtful responses wouldn't be good though.

To preface this, the raid looks really awesome and like it has much deeper gameplay than what we have seen. That said, this kind of gameplay should have been part of the main game. These puzzle style activities would have added a much needed variety. If Bungie adds more strikes to this iteration of Destiny, I really hope they won't be more bullet sponges, and they will have challenges like this raid.

Also, there is going to be a large chunk of the community that never gets to experience raids. Yes, I think it looks fantastic, but it is something I will likely never play.

Effective communication is not about what you say, it's about how other people respond to what you say.

I feel compelled to say this since I'm in competition with Cody for the Most Negative Nancy forum award.

The raid is FUCKING AWESOME. This is the kind of gameplay and level design I expected from Destiny. Bravo, Bungie.

Your post makes me realize that with everything since launch, if I'm Bungie I'm sticking to my guns with whatever plans I have over the coming weeks and months. Knee jerk reactions to negative/disappointed feedback would be a mistake. Not to say careful, deliberate, and thoughtful responses wouldn't be good though.

Also glad seeing someone have so much fun they have to swear. Fuuuuuckin right.