I killed one of each enemy type with one of each weapon, and then the credits rolled. Job Done, minimum time spent, GOTY.

The only way to do that is to have tons of content. Games should be AS SHORT AS POSSIBLE. They are entertainment. Every second of them should be entertaining. If you ask your player to do something boring in the name of having them play longer you have failed. If you ask players to do something repetitive in the name of having them play longer you have failed. Everything you ask them to do should be new, fun, and novel.

Some people love investment systems, sometimes it's the only reason they enjoy playing a particular game. I was talking with someone the other day about various games, and he said, "That game doesn't really interest me. I don't like games that don't have progression systems. If I'm not earning XP and ranking up, I feel like there's nothing left for me to do."

I felt like talking about how many thousands of games of Halo 2 I played online with no investment system, but it would have been as useful as telling him what flavor of ice cream I like.

Some people love the investment systems. That's why they keep coming back. Those are the kind of people Bungie is looking to hook with their system here.

The only way to do that is to have tons of content. Games should be AS SHORT AS POSSIBLE.

You realise these two are mutually exclusive, right?

How so? When I say short as possible, I mean this:

A game asks you to master A, B, and C, in situations X, Y, and Z.

That means the game will be:

AX
AY
AZ
BX
BY
BZ
CX
CY
CZ

So the moment your player masters AX, is when they should move onto AY. Don't keep them there a second longer than that, otherwise you have boredom. It also means do not make stretches of your game that are:

AX
BX
AX
BX
Etc.

Not sure what you were reading, but I saw a CRAPLOAD of complaints because of that release schedule. Stuff to the effect of "How can you release an entire season at once, and then make us wait a whole year before the next one?" That's human nature.

That's more an endorsement of the quality of the show. WE WANT MORE NOW.

If it was the perfect solution, EVERYONE would be using it by now. It clearly works for Netflix - but nobody else has gone to that model.

Netflix is the only one who can. Broadcasters have time slots. That's the nature of broadcasting.

If you WANT to watch one per week, you are absolutely free to do so. If you want to binge, you can. I simply do not see a downside, since everyone can tailor it to their own wants and habits.

But let's say that Netflix (for whatever reason) wants people to be watching the show longer. They have 3 choices:

1. Stagger the release like broadcasters do. This is equivalent to a time lock on content in a game. The vault of glass will open 4 weeks after launch.

2. Make more content. You could simply make more episodes. This would be Bungie putting more areas and missions into the game at ship.

3. You can make each episode longer. You can make each episode 2 hours instead of 1. That's bad, because you already have a story you told, so stretching it out thinner just makes it worse. Like a soap opera, you watch for days and not much really happens. This is what progression or investment based systems do, and it's a time waster.

Bullshit. Not a single person complained about House of Cards, despite the fact that many people binge watched in a day or two. It took a long time to get season 2. But you know what? People PREFERRED being able to choose how fast they view the content instead of waiting every week for a broadcast.

Not sure what you were reading, but I saw a CRAPLOAD of complaints because of that release schedule. Stuff to the effect of "How can you release an entire season at once, and then make us wait a whole year before the next one?" That's human nature.

If it was the perfect solution, EVERYONE would be using it by now. It clearly works for Netflix - but nobody else has gone to that model. There's no one-size-fits-all solution that's ideal - not in TV distribution, not in game development. No matter how much you believe you know what the RIGHT way of doing things is, there are always going to be folks who disagree with you... and they're going to be right to do so, much of the time.

And? That means we have had our fun. Padding the amount of time we have to spend is bad. Give me 20 hours of fun, not 40 hours of shit and 20 hours of fun for a total of 60 hours.

Actually, this doesn't pad time played at all; it simply stretches it out. Rather than playing 20 hours in a week, you might play 20 hours over the course of 4 weeks. At least, of certain activities; you can spend the rest of that time in other activities.

It's dumb. The hardcore folks could blast through everything and get bored quickly. They would leave. But the casuals still have other casuals to play with who also haven't seen everything yet. There is always going to be someone at your progression to play with.

You're making some pretty sweeping statements about something inherently very complex: the emergent behaviours of gaming populations of varying skill levels. Experience has taught me that this is rarely as simple, and black and white as it might seem. Keeping people of various skill levels all engaged and participating in the game is still important.

Bullshit. Not a single person complained about House of Cards, despite the fact that many people binge watched in a day or two. It took a long time to get season 2. But you know what? People PREFERRED being able to choose how fast they view the content instead of waiting every week for a broadcast. If someone sees the ends of Destiny, they can leave and do something else or play another game until the DLC comes out. Asking them to spend more time than needed with your game by stupid time locks is dumb, and not respecting of your player's time.

House of Cards is a television program. The difference in medium is massive: you can watch them all at whatever pace you want and the only person it affects is yourself (unless your SO is insisting you watch the series together, in which case you have a total watching population of two. Hardly massively-multiplayer territory).

But let's play along here and try and make an analogy. As a product, House of Cards is only one of many shows you can watch as a Netflix subscriber. What are the consequences for Netflix if their viewers watch the entirety of House of Cards in quick succession? Is there any likelihood that their subscribers will unsubscribe immediately after? Possibly a little, but it's probably true that for most subscribers, House of Cards was only one of the reasons they subscribed. And so, finishing the series doesn't mean they'll unsubscribe completely. But what if House of Cards was only one of a small number of shows on Netflix? What if you literally could exhaust all the available content in the space of a couple of months? Would you continue to subscribe? Or would you think: eh, I'll unsub until House of Cards Season 3 rolls along, and maybe they'll have some other good stuff by then?

The comparison between Destiny and other MMOs bears some consideration here, because although the revenue models are different, they're still fundamentally similar. It's just that instead of paying $10/month to subscribe, you're buying a game and then premium-rate DLC periodically, with expansions and sequels further down the road. Ultimately, it's a game franchise that is designed from the outset to extract recurring revenue from its customers over a long period of time. In this respect, Destiny is just like an MMO like World of Warcraft, and also, to Netflix.

Don't waste my time, and allow people to experience things at their own pace. If you must for whatever reason, don't put the challenges behind a grind wall: simply activate them at certain times. At least then you aren't asking your players to waste that time.

I'm confused how you feel like the game is wasting time; it's limiting how much time you can spend on a given activity in a given period. That's not wasting time; if anything it's streamlining it.

The only way to do that is to have tons of content. Games should be AS SHORT AS POSSIBLE.

You realise these two are mutually exclusive, right?

They are entertainment. Every second of them should be entertaining. If you ask your player to do something boring in the name of having them play longer you have failed. If you ask players to do something repetitive in the name of having them play longer you have failed. Everything you ask them to do should be new, fun, and novel. By your logic all the boring scenes that slow down a movie should be left in, because then you can watch it longer.

I think you may have skipped over the main point I was trying to make in the rush to beat your grinding is boring drum some more. Gating content is not asking people to repeat things until they get boring. Gating content simply means slowing down progression so that people remain engaged with the game over a longer period of time.

Now, nobody is saying you have to enjoy this kind of game. I respect your personal tastes, and they may not fit with this. But I think you're talking about this as if you understand the motivations that drive the design decisions Bungie have made, when I really don't think you do at all.

As much as that's the goal, the truth of it is that Destiny is a finite world. There are only so many places to visit, so many enemies to kill, so many strikes or raids to run; eventually you'll have seen them all, have no new goals to strive for and become bored and stop playing. When this happens to a player, that global population shrinks incrementally.

And? That means we have had our fun. Padding the amount of time we have to spend is bad. Give me 20 hours of fun, not 40 hours of shit and 20 hours of fun for a total of 60 hours.

It's dumb. The hardcore folks could blast through everything and get bored quickly. They would leave. But the casuals still have other casuals to play with who also haven't seen everything yet. There is always going to be someone at your progression to play with.

For their part, Bungie will keep adding to the world with expansions and new content, but they don't want you to start bouncing off the unseen limits of the game — like discovering the edge of The Truman Show's set — too soon. They can't release new expansions every week, so it's absolutely imperative they put in some speed traps to stop you from getting there before they're ready to give you something new.

Bullshit. Not a single person complained about House of Cards, despite the fact that many people binge watched in a day or two. It took a long time to get season 2. But you know what? People PREFERRED being able to choose how fast they view the content instead of waiting every week for a broadcast. If someone sees the ends of Destiny, they can leave and do something else or play another game until the DLC comes out. Asking them to spend more time than needed with your game by stupid time locks is dumb, and not respecting of your player's time.

That's one of the main purposes of gated content and other restrictions on how quickly you can zip through the game. Without them, it's likely some players (maybe even most?) would race through the content and get close to burn-out far too soon.

So what? What does that matter? Don't waste my time, and allow people to experience things at their own pace. If you must for whatever reason, don't put the challenges behind a grind wall: simply activate them at certain times. At least then you aren't asking your players to waste that time.

Previously their attempts to do this have been restricted to competitive multiplayer which, popular though it is, isn't everyone's cup of tea. The bigger picture here is to try and create a game that everyone can keep playing and enjoying for as long as possible (and will pay for the privilege for as long as they do).

The only way to do that is to have tons of content. Games should be AS SHORT AS POSSIBLE. They are entertainment. Every second of them should be entertaining. If you ask your player to do something boring in the name of having them play longer you have failed. If you ask players to do something repetitive in the name of having them play longer you have failed. Everything you ask them to do should be new, fun, and novel. By your logic all the boring scenes that slow down a movie should be left in, because then you can watch it longer.

Your game exists to entertain me. I don't exist to entertain your game.

Peeps need sleep. They need fresh air. Food. Exercise.

I disagree. :p

EDIT: This is not Bungie's first rodeo, and the thought occurred to me, too. But then I thought a little more and realised the above. This weekly limit was likely installed because they realised some people would consider grinding out hundreds of games a week, through whatever method. There is no point to that if it makes your 'natural' playtime 'worth less' because you don't earn any more CruMarks.

Again, if players playing your game TOO MUCH is somehow undesirable, then the system is flawed.

Once they hit the limit, players can no longer use the justification 'I want to earn more CruMarks for that sweet helm'. Instead, they have to use the justification 'I want to shoot more people in the face because it's fun' - surely that's desirable?

Besides, at a certain point, playing a game, any game, too much is undesirable (see also: definition of 'too much'). Peeps need sleep. They need fresh air. Food. Exercise.

…it won't bang itself, will it?

That's what she said

I'm going to go through with it and 'grind' once the game comes out specifically so I can precisely articulate why it's bad, with real examples so my arguments can't be dismissed on the basis of being theoretical.

Just picturing you sat at home playing Destiny with a grumpy scowl on your face as you try not to have any fun whilst grinding is making me smile.

Again, if players playing your game TOO MUCH is somehow undesirable, then the system is flawed.

Can you imagine if a Mario 64 only let you collect 30 stars a week?!

But Destiny is not Mario 64.

It's a game world which depends upon a consistently large player base. That's necessary to keep things like matchmaking queues short, to keep public events populated and to overall sell the impression that as a player you are one of many, bumping into friends and strangers alike as you go about your fun. Sometimes doing things on your own, other times as part of a group, but all the while aware that you're not playing a single player game.

As much as that's the goal, the truth of it is that Destiny is a finite world. There are only so many places to visit, so many enemies to kill, so many strikes or raids to run; eventually you'll have seen them all, have no new goals to strive for and become bored and stop playing. When this happens to a player, that global population shrinks incrementally. If it happens fast enough, the game ceases to sell the fiction of a thriving virtual world and becomes a ghost town. A game which is inherently social without anyone to be social with is a failure.

For their part, Bungie will keep adding to the world with expansions and new content, but they don't want you to start bouncing off the unseen limits of the game — like discovering the edge of The Truman Show's set — too soon. They can't release new expansions every week, so it's absolutely imperative they put in some speed traps to stop you from getting there before they're ready to give you something new. That's one of the main purposes of gated content and other restrictions on how quickly you can zip through the game. Without them, it's likely some players (maybe even most?) would race through the content and get close to burn-out far too soon.

When you play Mario 64 you can just zip through it, but presumably you'll just finish the game and then play something else instead. You don't get burned out playing Mario 64 because it's designed to be played, finished, then put down. Bungie is intrinsically trying to build a game you don't finish and put down. Previously their attempts to do this have been restricted to competitive multiplayer which, popular though it is, isn't everyone's cup of tea. The bigger picture here is to try and create a game that everyone can keep playing and enjoying for as long as possible (and will pay for the privilege for as long as they do).

EDIT: This is not Bungie's first rodeo, and the thought occurred to me, too. But then I thought a little more and realised the above. This weekly limit was likely installed because they realised some people would consider grinding out hundreds of games a week, through whatever method. There is no point to that if it makes your 'natural' playtime 'worth less' because you don't earn any more CruMarks.

This is how Blizzard deals with the currency systems used to purchase rewards in World of Warcraft too, incidentally: you have a weekly ‘cap’ on how much of each currency you can earn, and there are lots of ways to reach that cap quite quickly in a single week. Dedicated players will hit it very quickly, whilst the more moderate (but still committed) players will hit it around the end of each week, meaning that it doesn't slow their progress down.

It's the same drum he's been banging for about for the past year, that player investment systems are bad and inherently ruin a game etc. But the fact is: gamers tend to enjoy them, so regardless of what how he feels I doubt it's going to be problematic for Destiny.

In the end; jerks will be jerks. I will be (actually) playing the game and enjoying it. :)