I wish I could source this, and maybe this was calculated using the 500 mil figure, but there was an article in Forbes? that said Destiny would need to sell 16 million to break even.

Even if it only costs 200 million, that's still 6.4 million to break even, which is still a really small list of PC games (Minecraft, Diablo 3, WoW, Starcraft, Battlefield 2, Sims 1/2/3, Guild Wars 1/2, Myst, and Starcraft 2.)

I think you first brought it up here http://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?mode=thread&id=22691#p22692

It may not be much, but it's the best we can do Petition for Equality

"The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge natural to party dissention, which in different ages & countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism. But this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism. The disorders & miseries, which result, gradually incline the minds of men to seek security & repose in the absolute power of an Individual: and sooner or later the chief of some prevailing faction more able or more fortunate than his competitors, turns this disposition to the purposes of his own elevation, on the ruins of Public Liberty." — George Washington, September 19, 1796

The other thing is: Why would you even want to appear unbiased? I could see arguing that people should pick the best platform for the best rewards. I can see arguing the opposite, that the industry is broken by exclusives. But arguing: "Meh, whatevers." just seems kinda odd. It kinda feels like taking a neutral position is an attempt to criticize others without having to accept or respond to any criticism directed back at yourself. It's like saying "You're wrong, but I have no opinion on the matter so you can't say I'm wrong."

Not a matter of appearances, honestly. I like the arguing for one or the other. I like seeing that play out in this thread without belittlement, brushing aside, condescending, name calling, or disregarding how people are feeling on the subject. That's all I've been calling out.

Well, I think having no opinion in all of this is wrong. As is having an opinion but refusing to share it just so you can remain above the fray. Personally, I think the fray is kinda fun even if we (myself very very much included here) sometimes make mistakes and have to take some flack for them.

As for where I stand, believe it or not I really am in a "whatevers" grouping. I really don't have an opinion. If you think that's wrong, well that's totally cool with me. For the first time since 2000, nothing Bungie does will decide my console purchase. This Beta thing, the DLC or time-restricted content (which I've readily said is total trash) will not impact whether I go for Xbox One or PS4. Both sides have valid points. Both sides have expressed a ridiculous level of "love" or "hate" for whatever. One side has been far more rude and dismissive of it, which leads to conversations like this even occurring instead of constructive ones about what Activision or Bungie or someone should do or what people would like them to do, vs. "well gee Bungie has made it so totally obvious beyond forever that the Sony route is the route, and if you didn't realize that, well how dare you be upset, I mean gosh really oh em gee diaper." lol

I also haven't claimed that anyone is inherently wrong. I've actually said the opposite. People have a right to think that pete, yours, or others' reactions were totally ridiculous. They can then state why without being totally dismissive and without name calling or acting like the people upset are stupid for somehow lacking foresight in their purchasing decisions (see Narcogen's post for a really good example of a really good post in my opinion). That's all I'm getting at. Just because I may have some interesting translations for how I view what someone who bought a PS4 is saying doesn't mean I disagree with their premise.

That's all, in this case. I know you've read my HBO posts. I'm really, really good at biased opinion making and hyperbole. I'm definitely not always the cooler head, that's for sure. That's not the case here, and I really don't have an opinion of my own regarding this Beta stuff in general other than, "Some of you are mad, some of you aren't, how about the people who aren't don't attack the people who are. Just tell them why you disagree, passionately even and with hyperbole because fun, and then let's have an awesome discussion or debate. Thanks."

Stephen's comments can be interpreted exactly as Avateur said, although maybe that's not how he meant it. Or maybe it is. It just comes off, to me, like he's acting like he's above the whole situation and those involved in discussing it.

"Hey, everyone should have seen this coming, it's your fault for not being accommodating to Bungivision's garbage, I don't even know why you want all this stuff that I'm getting and you aren't."

Lack of content parity isn't something to ignore or justify on behalf of the publisher/developer--it's just bad. Whether it's platform exclusives or pre-order bonuses, it's just bad.

So far, all of the content seems to be timed, which is good--the situation could be much worse. But it could also be much better. It should be much better.

I don't mean to belittle the significance of the timed exclusives. Just try to put this in perspective. The thing is, it HAS been much worse for almost fifteen years. Up to this point it's been impossible to be a Bungie fan if not through Microsoft's platform of choice. Now, every major console is getting a piece of the action. Yes, it should be better. Exclusives suck. Make some noise. As a Bungie fan, I would be disappointed to own an Xbox One. Still, it's hard for me to look back on the Microsoft era and say this isn't an improvement, but I suppose that just sounds like I'm being an apologist for the current state of the industry.

The other thing is: Why would you even want to appear unbiased? I could see arguing that people should pick the best platform for the best rewards. I can see arguing the opposite, that the industry is broken by exclusives. But arguing: "Meh, whatevers." just seems kinda odd. It kinda feels like taking a neutral position is an attempt to criticize others without having to accept or respond to any criticism directed back at yourself. It's like saying "You're wrong, but I have no opinion on the matter so you can't say I'm wrong."

Well, I think having no opinion in all of this is wrong. As is having an opinion but refusing to share it just so you can remain above the fray. Personally, I think the fray is kinda fun even if we (myself very very much included here) sometimes make mistakes and have to take some flack for them.

I was being sarcastic about the Avateur bit. Guess the quick transition didn't convey that sufficiently, sorry.

The other thing is: Why would you even want to appear unbiased? I could see arguing that people should pick the best platform for the best rewards. I can see arguing the opposite, that the industry is broken by exclusives. But arguing: "Meh, whatevers." just seems kinda odd. It kinda feels like taking a neutral position is an attempt to criticize others without having to accept or respond to any criticism directed back at yourself. It's like saying "You're wrong, but I have no opinion on the matter so you can't say I'm wrong."

Well, I think having no opinion in all of this is wrong. As is having an opinion but refusing to share it just so you can remain above the fray. Personally, I think the fray is kinda fun even if we (myself very very much included here) sometimes make mistakes and have to take some flack for them.

Let the record show that I had just returned from bungie.net and had read some ridiculous ALL CAPPED comments when I wrote about the screaming. I should have said that initially, but thank you for not taking it personally and even responding with a smiley.

Well, I think having no opinion in all of this is wrong. As is having an opinion but refusing to share it just so you can remain above the fray. Personally, I think the fray is kinda fun even if we (myself very very much included here) sometimes make mistakes and have to take some flack for them.

It doesn't as far as Bungie or Activision's whatever with a Beta is going. I've provided no actual thoughts of my own on it. Just all the personal comments and belittlement others seem to be making that is being directed places. But go ahead and point out my thoughts on a Beta or its timeframe or anything actually pertaining to this topic beyond DLC, if you'd like. I'd love to be made aware of my own unstated thoughts.

You're claiming to be an impartial referee, but I think you're making some bad calls. And maybe since the rhetoric has died down it might be good to let it stay down and not spin people's words into something worse than they are.

I'm not one to belittle or take delight in other people's unhappiness. There may be some people like that here, but I'm not one of them. Based on my interactions with Stephen, I don't think he is either. I don't understand the level of anger, and I expressed that, and I've apologized twice now for doing so a bit too colorfully. I don't think a third apology is necessary, yet maybe you think so because you're still calling out my rhetoric from days ago. I ask you as someone who has enjoyed your company face to face, can you spare some grace here, and let some of this go?

I don't think a third apology is necessary either, but I think you said something and it's being used as an example. Just as anyone can use my original post as an example of overreacting, regardless of any subsequent calming down that both of us have done.

Stephen's comments can be interpreted exactly as Avateur said, although maybe that's not how he meant it. Or maybe it is. It just comes off, to me, like he's acting like he's above the whole situation and those involved in discussing it.

"Hey, everyone should have seen this coming, it's your fault for not being accommodating to Bungivision's garbage, I don't even know why you want all this stuff that I'm getting and you aren't."

Lack of content parity isn't something to ignore or justify on behalf of the publisher/developer--it's just bad. Whether it's platform exclusives or pre-order bonuses, it's just bad.

So far, all of the content seems to be timed, which is good--the situation could be much worse. But it could also be much better. It should be much better.

It might not bother some people here, especially those that are unaffected, but I just wish Avateur would stop pretending not to have a bias. It's so obvious, dude.

It doesn't as far as Bungie or Activision's whatever with a Beta is going. I've provided no actual thoughts of my own on it. Just all the personal comments and belittlement others seem to be making that is being directed places. But go ahead and point out my thoughts on a Beta or its timeframe or anything actually pertaining to this topic beyond DLC, if you'd like. I'd love to be made aware of my own unstated thoughts.

You're claiming to be an impartial referee, but I think you're making some bad calls. And maybe since the rhetoric has died down it might be good to let it stay down and not spin people's words into something worse than they are.

I'm not one to belittle or take delight in other people's unhappiness. There may be some people like that here, but I'm not one of them. Based on my interactions with Stephen, I don't think he is either. I don't understand the level of anger, and I expressed that, and I've apologized twice now for doing so a bit too colorfully. I don't think a third apology is necessary, yet maybe you think so because you're still calling out my rhetoric from days ago. I ask you as someone who has enjoyed your company face to face, can you spare some grace here, and let some of this go?

Very well put, I completely agree. This feels like Bungie has been deliberately misleading to its community this entire time.

Dude. A year ago Bungie flat out said that the PS4 was the best platform for Destiny, AND they said that the PS4 would get exclusive playable game content. It was as true then as it is now. They were very clear, because this did not surprise me one bit.

News of the extra beta time for PS4 owners is months old.

It may be shitty, but Bungie hasn't been deceptive at all. You all need to be mad at the shittiness of it, not mad over being deceived, or betrayed or whatever.

It's not the existence of it, it's the extent of it, and that wasn't revealed. You can say you're going to have some exclusive content, but man, it turns out that Bungie has really gone all out, and even planned exclusive content beyond launch.

A question I posed in the thread DeeJ started--will we get a date on when the exclusive content expires before September 9th?

Do PC games not sell as well as console games?

On the whole, no they do not.

Very well put, I completely agree. This feels like Bungie has been deliberately misleading to its community this entire time.

Dude. A year ago Bungie flat out said that the PS4 was the best platform for Destiny, AND they said that the PS4 would get exclusive playable game content. It was as true then as it is now. They were very clear, because this did not surprise me one bit.

News of the extra beta time for PS4 owners is months old.

It may be shitty, but Bungie hasn't been deceptive at all. You all need to be mad at the shittiness of it, not mad over being deceived, or betrayed or whatever.

Note: Still not a single opinion of my own provided on this mess, beyond DLC and the dismissiveness directed at the "butthurt" folk.

Yeah... You keep telling yourself that your 'translation' doesn't involve any personal opinion or bias.

"I'm special, Xbox One owners did this to themselves, and the have nots should be like the haves and have an open mind about it all, or just go buy the console and be quiet. How dare anyone feel strongly about things!"

The perfect addition to a thread with diapers and blankies.

Note: Still not a single opinion of my own provided on this mess, beyond DLC and the dismissiveness directed at the "butthurt" folk.

But really, the only thing I am and will truly stay upset about is a community segmented by platform; when what is best for the medium, the art, and the players is:

Nothing less than a PC / Mac only release could have solved this, and since Destiny needs to sell 16 million units to break even, and since only ONE PC game has ever done numbers like that (Minecraft), I can see WHY they did what they did.

You saw how that 500 million dollar figure was debunked, right?

I wish I could source this, and maybe this was calculated using the 500 mil figure, but there was an article in Forbes? that said Destiny would need to sell 16 million to break even.

Even if it only costs 200 million, that's still 6.4 million to break even, which is still a really small list of PC games (Minecraft, Diablo 3, WoW, Starcraft, Battlefield 2, Sims 1/2/3, Guild Wars 1/2, Myst, and Starcraft 2.)

Do PC games not sell as well as console games?

Halo 4 sold 9.05 million
Reach sold 9.75 million
ODST sold 6.24 million
Halo 3 sold 14.5 million
Halo 2 sold 8.49 million
Gears of war sold 5.93 million

And those were each on a single platform. Destiny selling about the same as ODST seems like a ridiculously low bar to hurdle.

Except, Bungie chose Activision. They freed themselves of Microsoft's yolk, and then immediately submitted to Activision's.

MS wouldn't have allowed it on any platform but Xbox. Not a win for Bungie or players.

Activision's money comes with fewer restrictions (biggest one being ownership of the IP) and I'm pretty damn sure Bungie shopped around but there aren't that many options at the kind of scale Bungie wanted/needed.

You think EA would have been better? Don't make me... cry.

/poor DICE

Why not go to Valve?

Frankly, all this DLC nonsense makes me want to skip Destiny altogether, the competitive multiplayer doesn't seem competitive at all, the dlc garbage, the loot grind, player investment, etc. It seems like a really good, fool-around-with-your-friends-type game, but there are far better games for that sort of thing.

I'm with you man, I have a lot of questions, which I'm sure the beta will speak to.

The Alpha was a blast, however it was a tiny slice.

How will the MMO elements and investment system fare? Hoping the beta reveals this. If it turns out to really suck the life out of the game, you can do what I'll do and just play until you stop enjoying it, not buy the DLC, and move on. However if it turns out to be awesome, well then even better.

I could have paid 60 bucks for the alpha and gotten my money's worth, so the final game is a no brainer even if a lot of the content doesn't appeal to me.