You're welcome.

I agree with everything you wrote. To be fair to Bungie, if Destiny is truly as revolutionary as they say it is, it may be one of those things that's impossible to "get" until you've played it for yourself. It may be that they don't know how to describe it to us. In that case, sharing some hard gameplay mechanics might help, but they are reluctant to do that, so I wouldn't hold my breath.

But I totally agree with you that it's been almost a year since Destiny was officially announced and I still have no idea what it actually is. It's an MMOFPS that's definitely not an MMO, apparently, and that's confusing. Even though it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, we're meant to think that it's a swan or something. Everything Bungie has released about this game has been intriguing, but woefully uninformative, abd that only adds to the confusion. The initial announcement hinted at great things, but all we actually got to see was concept art and hyperbole from Bungie employees. The E3 trailer showcased some promising features, like public events and item loot, but we didn't actually learn anything about how those features will work. They keep hinting at all of these great things without actually showing us anything of substance. One can only listen to DeeJ and his cohorts talk about how revolutionary and orgasmic this game will be for so long before one realizes that they have absolutely no reason to draw that conclusion for themselves based on the information we have.

Bungie has my interest. Now they just need to earn my trust, and the only way that's going to happen is if they share some concrete information about the fucking game. It doesn't need to be anything super-technical like cones of fire. If they would just open up a little more about basic gameplay mechanics, that would be sufficient.

I'm sure the damage mechanics Bungie applies in the final vers. of Destiny after the BETA DATA will suffice.

But I am a fanboy, admittedly. I would buy Destiny sight-unseen just because it's got the Bungie logo on the cover. I have never NOT enjoyed a Bungie game (I thought ODST and Reach were the best Halo games, barring the original).

I just don't really see the problem, I guess, from my perspective. We know basically what Destiny is, even if they want to avoid the term just because of the negative associations with it. It's a shared world shooter. Who cares exactly how damage works (at this particular moment in time)? We know it's a FPS. We know that is Bungie's bread and butter. They excel at making great FPS games. What else is there to know, at this point, really? I get that yes, there's lots of things that will be new and different, and maybe things you won't like in particular. But ultimately I think we can assume if you like the gameplay, the shooting, of Halo, you'll probably enjoy this. I understand that you (not you in particular, Xenos) need to know more before you make a decision to purchase. The game is still what, almost a year out? If you don't know by the day it's released what you need to know, then by all means, go ahead and complain. But at this point, I just don't really get it. There's still plenty of time for all that to be revealed.

I guess it all boils down to this: for me personally, Bungie still has all the street cred it needs to do basically whatever the hell they want, and I'll still purchase on day one.

Totally agree about Jason's interview though. And it's funny, as you were saying that I was thinking "yeah, he's always been like that" and that quote from the Halo 2 making of DVD popped into my head. Then I got to your footnotes and saw it there. :)

I guess if anything is giving me some comfort regarding Destiny's relative greatness, it's that Bungie is on their own now, and no longer making Halo games simply because they have to make Halo games. They're making Destiny because it's what they wanted to make next, which is how all their previous great works came about. That's hardly a guarantee, but it's something.

I also happen to know that this entire mindset is strange and very much the mindset of a fanboy.

I think kapowaz got too caught up in the details (albeit trying to prove his point). But the reason Bungie's secrecy bugs me, and I think the reason it bugs kapowaz, is this:

1. Bungie constantly hypes their own product, and tells us how great it's going to be and how we should trust them just because they're Bungie.

2. They refuse to give details about WHY it's great.[1]

These two things do not mesh. It may have worked for me during Halo 2- and Halo 3-era, where they still had a lot of street cred, and I really could trust them. But ODST and Reach came along and, while they're fantastic games, they did not live up to Bungie's own hype. I'm not impatient. I'm just annoyed. And, it's the reason I've not been active around here. I just don't have a reason to care. Yeah, I've seen the Destiny footage. It looks really neat. And I know that I'm constantly told I should care. But then they dodge giving me reasons to.[2]

Again, it's not necessarily a lack of information compared to any other game. Just that their giving out this amount while at the same time yelling at us to get hyped its gonna be the best is exhausting at best and condescending at worst. "You want concrete reasons why it's gonna be great? What, our word isn't good enough? Do you also demand that Santa bring all your gifts early, you impatient jerk?"

I also get that a bunch of you love information being handed out in this way. The question I have is, "Why?" I genuinely can not understand it. I get the allure of peeking behind the shadows. And I get the primal excitement of jumping on the hype train. But these two things contradict each other. I just. I just don't get it.

The best thing I've seen about Destiny so far? The recent Jason Jones interview. He was matter-of-fact. He answered questions. More to the point, he answered questions while maintaining their secrecy. Even more to the point, he was able to do that without being "srsly the game is the best, guys"[3]. And most to the point, he treated the audience with respect enough to not beat around the bush. Incidentally, as much as I really, really dislike Halo 4, I loved 343's approach to their updates. They were never overly confident (and were transparent on how nervous they were to be taking on the franchise), and they handed out information in a steady way; never obfuscating for the sake of it.

God. Why this bums me out so much is because they are Bungie. I love them and they've had an extremely significant impact on my life. And contrary to the tone of this post, it's still one of my life-long goals to work there as an animator (eh deej hehe jk about all this stuff bff forever). But that's exactly why it bugs me. I don't want to not have confidence in Bungie's ability. I still want to put them on a pedestal. But after having been given information in this way for the last 10 years, and having the last 5 of those years produce sub-typical-Bungie results, it's wearing really thin.

Cliffs/tl;dr:
- Bungie itself is the biggest source of Destiny hype
- At the same time, they're keeping specifics closely guarded
- When asked why we should be as excited as they are, they tell us to calm down

[1] I'm not talking about minutia like fire cones. All I want is broad strokes stuff. So far I could tell you one thing about what Destiny actually is. It's an MMOFPS. Neat. That's intriguing. But I've also known that for a year. I really can not give any other deep reason to separate this game from, say, Halo. But to add to the frustration, they keep saying it's definitely not an MMOFPS. Well. I'm stumped, guys. Dozens of weekly updates and several vidocs and I have no fucking idea what this game is. But I guess that's my fault for being so impatient and not trusting you guys 100%. After all, according to you, the people who are trying to sell me the game, it is revolutionary. Ok. No more questions then.

[2] "ChorrizoTapatio How does the damage system work in Destiny?

It's all really complicated. Essentially, you're gonna see these dudes, and you're gonna want to, you know, do some damage to them. Maybe they're extra-terrestrial squatters who have claimed your lost homeworlds as their own. Maybe it's just that guy from that other private group who thinks he's always right. At your fingertips, you'll have an inventory bristling with weapons, not to mention all the powers of creation. You're gonna use that stuff to attack those dudes, and they will become really damaged.

Sorry. I should really ask an Engineer to answer this question. Ask me again sometime."

No, wait. One more question. Why even pretend to give an answer if you're just going to joke about it? Why have any pretense of a mailbag at all if it's going to be stuff like this?

[3] "I don't think anybody in this world has ever done anything worthwhile without being their own worst critic. Especially if you talk about any creative enterprise. If you somehow believe that what you're doing is the greatest thing ever all the time, it's absolutely not gonna be the greatest thing ever."
-Jason Jones, in the Making of Halo 2
This idea of creative humility blew my 13-year-old mind. And it's the antithesis to Bungie's current self-propelled invisible hype-machine.

I'm with you, Kerm.

It's like hearing about a painter's latest masterpiece, and hollering about why they haven't released the molecular breakdown of the materials they're using.

Forests and trees, constants and variables.

The hyperbole and flowery superlatives coming out of the dev team on a regular basis could use some level of real detail to balance out. After hearing about how great everything is, I'd really like to see a little.

I may not agree with the OP specifically, but I can agree with him in general; we've been hearing a lot about the masterpiece, but have actually seen very little.

The hype train should slow down until the product catches up.

My guess is they started the hype train in order to deliver more details around this time, but they've run into some setbacks that have extended the schedule. That's fine - I trust Bungie and will be looking forward to what they have when they have it.

Inside the Box is an awesome series, one I also enjoy reading. However it also came out AFTER the game came out. It's true that Gearbox has been pretty open about their games' mechanics, but having followed Borderlands 2 myself most of the mechanics were not talked about in depth until 1-3 months before the game was released. And that was for a sequel, not even for the first game in a franchise.

It's clearly better to talk about this stuff after the game is out. Cause, you know, people will have played it and seen the mechanics in action.

But I'm also the kind of person who yells and turns off the TV if it starts playing a trailer for a movie I want to see, or avoids friends who've seen it before me!

You're my kind of person, Levi.

Call me a sycophant. Actually, don't. That's offensive. Screw that noise.

but you can call what you will.

I just don't get it, kapowaz.

The important thing is how it plays, no? We've got a beta coming.

What benefit would be gained by Bungie talking about aspects of the game as if they are fact with people who haven't played the game--especially since whatever is true today might not be true tomorrow? They have a small army of testers to talk with. Why would we know more than they do?

And I won't even go into the statements you make about what their silence portends.

I'm with you, Kerm.

It's like hearing about a painter's latest masterpiece, and hollering about why they haven't released the molecular breakdown of the materials they're using.

Forests and trees, constants and variables.

I'm all about appreciating the community, fans, paying customers that allow them to do what they do, etc., and the two-way relationship that requires. Yet, in the artistic realm there's much to be said for doing the work that you want to do, and there's lots to be said for not doing the work only because others want you to. The formula goes like this: make something that is meaningful to you [substitute "fun" or some other positive quality] and other people will like it, too. Yes, there's economics to consider, but gosh, Bungie has earned some artistic freedom. From my perspective, they're earned my trust. Call me a sycophant. Actually, don't. That's offensive. Screw that noise.

I just don't get it, kapowaz.

The important thing is how it plays, no? We've got a beta coming.

What benefit would be gained by Bungie talking about aspects of the game as if they are fact with people who haven't played the game--especially since whatever is true today might not be true tomorrow? They have a small army of testers to talk with. Why would we know more than they do?

And I won't even go into the statements you make about what their silence portends.

I'm with you, Kerm.

It's like hearing about a painter's latest masterpiece, and hollering about why they haven't released the molecular breakdown of the materials they're using.

Forests and trees, constants and variables.

The important thing is how it plays, no? We've got a beta coming.

What benefit would be gained by Bungie talking about aspects of the game as if they are fact with people who haven't played the game--especially since whatever is true today might not be true tomorrow? They have a small army of testers to talk with. Why would we know more than they do?

And I won't even go into the statements you make about what their silence portends.

From memory, Bungie has used:

• Pinpoint accuracy,
  
• Random Distributions,
  
• Normal Distributions,
  
• Donut distributions (not joking),
  
• Recoil-dependent distributions.

... all in the same game.

So asking which one they are using is like asking if their game is going to use shotguns or assault rifles.

Is this Reach? Can you match weapon names to these (especially the doughnut distribution)? Thanks!

Halo 2.

Again, this is from memory so I may be wrong on a couple:

• Sniper is pinpoint.
  
• Plasma Rifle is random.
  
• BR is normal distribution.
  
• Shotgun is donut distribution (hole in the middle, randomised elsewhere)
  
• SMGs are recoil-dependent (hold trigger longer = higher spread)

The fire pattern of the Shotgun made it almost useless at anything but point blank. Which I guess was the point after the beastly one in H1. But it made the Sword all the more awesome for close range work.

So yeah, Bungie aren't really the type to choose one 'paradigm' for all the weapons in their game. They'll use every tool they can get their hands on to make the overall experience fun and 'balanced.'

From memory, Bungie has used:

• Pinpoint accuracy,
  
• Random Distributions,
  
• Normal Distributions,
  
• Donut distributions (not joking),
  
• Recoil-dependent distributions.

... all in the same game.

So asking which one they are using is like asking if their game is going to use shotguns or assault rifles.

Is this Reach? Can you match weapon names to these (especially the doughnut distribution)? Thanks!

It's likely Halo 2 as it was to my knowledge the only one that had donut spread.

Sniper weapons have always used pinpoint accuracy (i.e., no spread), with the sniper rifle in Halo 1 being an exception when it's fired unzoomed. The Halo 1 plasma pistol also has zero spread.

The shotgun in Halo 3 is definitely a randomly-distributed weapon, but I'm not certain which ones in Halo 2 are.

The AR, plasma rifle, and shotgun in Halo 1 had normal distributions, but I'm again unsure which weapon(s) in Halo 2 had it.

The Halo 2 shotgun had donut spread. The best way to see this is to load up Beaver Creek and fire at the same spot in the side of one of the bases from about 15 or 20 meters away (bullet hole decals show up really well on the bases). You'll notice a big empty spot in the middle of the distribution.

The Halo 2 SMG had both recoil-dependent and donut distribution. By using short-controlled bursts (quick taps of the trigger that fire 1-3 rounds) you can draw a ring on any surface where bullet holes show up well, and by holding down the trigger you get prodigious recoil that even a mighty Spartan II cannot control it.