But that means you need a minimum of 68 damage before a knife will finish a target. So a precision hit from some Hand Cannons would open that option up.

The good ol' days...

But if those anecdotes are consistent then yeah that seems kinda weak for hits. More data is required to really assess.

Agreed, I will start compiling some numbers. I never really focus on numbers, I just know what kills and what doesn't as far as Destiny. If this were Fortnite I would be very focused on the numbers as its far more important for teamwork v individual effort.

But if those anecdotes are consistent then yeah that seems kinda weak for hits. More data is required to really assess.

Another repeating scenario: 1 body burst/shot and a precision Exploding knife hit, they still survived. It could just be high armor titans.

I just need to start recording, I dont have a reason not too, I just always don't think about it.

Thanks for the well written response. I enjoy healthy conversations.

I did some processing last night with everyones input, Thanks everyone!

Seeing the risk/reward side, and level of commitment needed to shoulder charge I will concede its closer balanced than I rambled about yesterday.

I still believe hunter throwing knife could benefit from a buff to bring it closer to the other classes. Having to use a knife, dodge, and another knife to get a kill seems a little unfair when you lose your abilities hit or miss, and you have a larger room for error.

Too bad theres no crossplay, we could private match together and do some in game testing of our own. I wish I had the patience to do what Korny does with the videos.

Yeah, I also think it needs a buff, but I worry about a buff that would give it a 1 hit kill only because of how "easy" it would be to go on a killing spree with just knives. I would be totally okay if it was something like, get a kill with a knife, the next one is a one hit kill or something like that :D

Or even 1 hit kill for a couple seconds after a dodge. I could see people comboing it and having fun. That would also make dodges more offensive too!

Ok then why use a sniper rifle when a knife can 1 hit kill and has waaaaaay more aim assist? You can even get them back immediately on precision kill so you have unlimited ammo if you are good.

To me, knives are meant to finish off damaged opponents while you are in the air or when you are about to duck out.

Thanks for the well written response. I enjoy healthy conversations.

I did some processing last night with everyones input, Thanks everyone!

Seeing the risk/reward side, and level of commitment needed to shoulder charge I will concede its closer balanced than I rambled about yesterday.

I still believe hunter throwing knife could benefit from a buff to bring it closer to the other classes. Having to use a knife, dodge, and another knife to get a kill seems a little unfair when you lose your abilities hit or miss, and you have a larger room for error.

Too bad theres no crossplay, we could private match together and do some in game testing of our own. I wish I had the patience to do what Korny does with the videos.

Yeah, I also think it needs a buff, but I worry about a buff that would give it a 1 hit kill only because of how "easy" it would be to go on a killing spree with just knives. I would be totally okay if it was something like, get a kill with a knife, the next one is a one hit kill or something like that :D

Or even 1 hit kill for a couple seconds after a dodge. I could see people comboing it and having fun. That would also make dodges more offensive too!

I would argue that shoulder charge takes more planning and foresight and throwing knives takes more aiming skill. They are independent skills. But to say that shoulder charge takes no skill is not fair at all. I'm not saying that is what you are saying, but I get the feeling that is what you are implying. Also, both skills can be dodged, but at least you can shoot a shoulder charger. All you can do for a knife is hope that it's not in line with your face.

I'll take the hit, its exactly what I am saying. Prove me wrong if I am. No harm, seriously.

I like an honest man :D

Take someone who has never played a game, they would get more kills with shoulder charge than they would with throwing knives hands down. How is that not related to skill. I don't think that is far fetched to say.

I would argue that shoulder charge is more effective at lower skill levels and inversely for throwing knives. The reason I say that is because of how high risk shoulder charge is compared to throwing knives. You have to commit with a shoulder charge. If you fail a shoulder charge you are dead. If you aren't then you are fighting someone who sucks. You can throw a knife and hide around a corner. The risk is far less.

So, from you example, yes an inexperienced person would get more kills.

As far as the planning, you are going to sprint anyway. Not all the time, but enough to where you are ready for a shoulder charge just by playing normally. Everyone that has played titan has got kills by just sprinting and then some random enemy walks out in front and they hit the melee button for an easy panic kill.

From this description, it makes it sound like the people are completely oblivious to the motion tracker. I feel like it's totally possible for people to be oblivious of enemies approaching them, but again this is why I mention skill level of the opponent. I feel like almost every time I get shoulder charged I deserved it. I was out of place or not prepared.

Let me also mention that if you are sprinting and someone has a line of sight on you, you are dead 80% of the time. That is why people don't sprint all the time.

The number of throwing knife kills by PLANNED throws is definitely far less than panic shoulder charge. Maybe thats my issue with it. Or maybe I'm just a salty hunter, sorry if that is the case!

Well, this comes back to the comparing 1 to 1. We know that knives can't one hit. But if we are saying just "scoring a hit" then we can do better comparison. As for planning. How often do you see someone on the tracker and your next move is planned around throwing your knife? Or if you see someone and then duck to cover and then think about your next moves based around your knife? I know this is kinda hard to think about because as we have mentioned, they aren't OHKs.

I guess I feel like with a knife, you either lead with it or finish someone with it. Does that take skill? Totally! Does it take planning and foresight? Not in my mind. Shoulder charge has rarely ever been a "in the moment" strategy. It has always been a flanking, planned charging into someone ranks and secretly to keep from getting gunned down. In very few cases at close range I will try and get up to sprinting speed and circle around in hopes of hitting someone before I'm gunned down. More often it is me running away and turning a corner to try and turn around to turn the tide of a fight. All these scenarios take way more than "I hit a button because I panicked" Can you sprint around the map all the time and get random kills from running into people? Yeah! But more often than not against halfway decent players, you are going to be gunned down 80% of the time in my experience.

I don't have any numbers or figures to support this, these are the ramblings of a madman. But I'm sure enough of us can easily say they have been killed more by shoulder charge. And its not because of all the "skilled" titans out there.

Indeed. These are all my experiences from playing a LOT of titan hours in many varied levels of experience.

Thanks for the well written response. I enjoy healthy conversations.

I did some processing last night with everyones input, Thanks everyone!

Seeing the risk/reward side, and level of commitment needed to shoulder charge I will concede its closer balanced than I rambled about yesterday.

I still believe hunter throwing knife could benefit from a buff to bring it closer to the other classes. Having to use a knife, dodge, and another knife to get a kill seems a little unfair when you lose your abilities hit or miss, and you have a larger room for error.

Too bad theres no crossplay, we could private match together and do some in game testing of our own. I wish I had the patience to do what Korny does with the videos.

The inconsistent contact issues are so frustrating.

Anyway, I think both of those clips really illustrate the function of shoulder charge as not being some blind use ability. When you are approaching on a flank or otherwise occupied targets they are easy, catch them head on by surprise and it is more up in the air, but get caught in the open against range, pretty much a sealed caskeT.

Yeah. I’ve never been upset when killed by a shoulder charge. I know that it was my fault (especially since I use Fighting Lion). And even as a Titan, running Skullfort has pretty significantly dropped my K/D, since I’ve gotten very closely acquainted with all of the shotguns in the expansion, Telesto, and Blade Barrage. And that’s besides the charges that come up just shy of the target, which happens more often than I’d like to admit.

Anyway, I think both of those clips really illustrate the function of shoulder charge as not being some blind use ability. When you are approaching on a flank or otherwise occupied targets they are easy, catch them head on by surprise and it is more up in the air, but get caught in the open against range, pretty much a sealed caskeT.

You forgot that gamblers dodge is easily the best class ability in PvP.

And One Eyed Mask might be the most powerful exotic for PvP.

*cough* There's another exotic whose power is... insurmountable.

https://xboxdvr.com/gamer/kornymunky/video/61669605

That said, the shoulder charge is kind of iffy sometimes. I often find myself charging through enemies, shoving them back, and in one instance where TheeChaos was watching from another angle, my shoulder charge rubs up against enemies and does nothing but stop me in my tracks.

Here's one example of the "charge through enemies" thing:

https://xboxdvr.com/gamer/kornymunky/video/62478535

You forgot that gamblers dodge is easily the best class ability in PvP.

And One Eyed Mask might be the most powerful exotic for PvP.

Not sure how they didn’t learn their lesson from wormhusk.

I would argue that shoulder charge takes more planning and foresight and throwing knives takes more aiming skill. They are independent skills. But to say that shoulder charge takes no skill is not fair at all. I'm not saying that is what you are saying, but I get the feeling that is what you are implying. Also, both skills can be dodged, but at least you can shoot a shoulder charger. All you can do for a knife is hope that it's not in line with your face.

I'll take the hit, its exactly what I am saying. Prove me wrong if I am. No harm, seriously.

I like an honest man :D

Take someone who has never played a game, they would get more kills with shoulder charge than they would with throwing knives hands down. How is that not related to skill. I don't think that is far fetched to say.

I would argue that shoulder charge is more effective at lower skill levels and inversely for throwing knives. The reason I say that is because of how high risk shoulder charge is compared to throwing knives. You have to commit with a shoulder charge. If you fail a shoulder charge you are dead. If you aren't then you are fighting someone who sucks. You can throw a knife and hide around a corner. The risk is far less.

So, from you example, yes an inexperienced person would get more kills.

As far as the planning, you are going to sprint anyway. Not all the time, but enough to where you are ready for a shoulder charge just by playing normally. Everyone that has played titan has got kills by just sprinting and then some random enemy walks out in front and they hit the melee button for an easy panic kill.

From this description, it makes it sound like the people are completely oblivious to the motion tracker. I feel like it's totally possible for people to be oblivious of enemies approaching them, but again this is why I mention skill level of the opponent. I feel like almost every time I get shoulder charged I deserved it. I was out of place or not prepared.

Let me also mention that if you are sprinting and someone has a line of sight on you, you are dead 80% of the time. That is why people don't sprint all the time.

The number of throwing knife kills by PLANNED throws is definitely far less than panic shoulder charge. Maybe thats my issue with it. Or maybe I'm just a salty hunter, sorry if that is the case!

Well, this comes back to the comparing 1 to 1. We know that knives can't one hit. But if we are saying just "scoring a hit" then we can do better comparison. As for planning. How often do you see someone on the tracker and your next move is planned around throwing your knife? Or if you see someone and then duck to cover and then think about your next moves based around your knife? I know this is kinda hard to think about because as we have mentioned, they aren't OHKs.

I guess I feel like with a knife, you either lead with it or finish someone with it. Does that take skill? Totally! Does it take planning and foresight? Not in my mind. Shoulder charge has rarely ever been a "in the moment" strategy. It has always been a flanking, planned charging into someone ranks and secretly to keep from getting gunned down. In very few cases at close range I will try and get up to sprinting speed and circle around in hopes of hitting someone before I'm gunned down. More often it is me running away and turning a corner to try and turn around to turn the tide of a fight. All these scenarios take way more than "I hit a button because I panicked" Can you sprint around the map all the time and get random kills from running into people? Yeah! But more often than not against halfway decent players, you are going to be gunned down 80% of the time in my experience.

I don't have any numbers or figures to support this, these are the ramblings of a madman. But I'm sure enough of us can easily say they have been killed more by shoulder charge. And its not because of all the "skilled" titans out there.

Indeed. These are all my experiences from playing a LOT of titan hours in many varied levels of experience.

You forgot that gamblers dodge is easily the best class ability in PvP.

And One Eyed Mask might be the most powerful exotic for PvP.

That’s the thing. I’m sure there are people who get lucky panic knives. And there are people who get shotgunned before they can finish their shoulder charge as someone steps around a corner. There are many, many theoretical situations you can use to compare. However none of them will dispute that to use either well you have to apply a skillset, not the same skillset mind you. But just because some people use something without skill doesn’t mean it is skillless.

I would argue that shoulder charge takes more planning and foresight and throwing knives takes more aiming skill. They are independent skills. But to say that shoulder charge takes no skill is not fair at all. I'm not saying that is what you are saying, but I get the feeling that is what you are implying. Also, both skills can be dodged, but at least you can shoot a shoulder charger. All you can do for a knife is hope that it's not in line with your face.

I'll take the hit, its exactly what I am saying. Prove me wrong if I am. No harm, seriously.

Take someone who has never played a game, they would get more kills with shoulder charge than they would with throwing knives hands down. How is that not related to skill. I don't think that is far fetched to say.

As far as the planning, you are going to sprint anyway. Not all the time, but enough to where you are ready for a shoulder charge just by playing normally. Everyone that has played titan has got kills by just sprinting and then some random enemy walks out in front and they hit the melee button for an easy panic kill. The number of throwing knife kills by PLANNED throws is definitely far less than panic shoulder charge. Maybe thats my issue with it. Or maybe I'm just a salty hunter, sorry if that is the case!

I don't have any numbers or figures to support this, these are the ramblings of a madman. But I'm sure enough of us can easily say they have been killed more by shoulder charge. And its not because of all the "skilled" titans out there.

Blade Barrage is the only super that can consistently OHK a Nova Warping Warlock. To me, that's a win.

This is true. Although, seems like NO ONE uses nova bomb since voidbomber came out. Can a Nova Bomb not one shot them? I am VERY glad that you mentioned this. I forgot about it in my post, but I am glad hunters got a panic super.