Also, IIRC, the cave exit doesn’t quite point towards the ridge, but towards the door where you meet up with Spider’s minions, which is the direction Sammy went. Plus, you’re in the middle of a fight with Scorn, so many players will be distracted with that. The first time, I didn’t even hear Ghost say “there, on the ridge”.

The cave where I exited is pointed literally directly at the ridge. I was down in the middle though, and not on the path above. I did forget about the Scorn, though. Do they leave the cave and spread out if you don't kill them quickly enough? I killed them in the cave and then there is nothing else out there and until you walk towards that Servitor, but the Barons appear on the ridge before any more Scorn spawn.

During one of the Dead Space ViDocs, the devs talked about how, if you don't take control from the player's hands, they can miss around 20-40% of scripted moments. One of the keys to preventing this is framing:
Want them to be looking in a certain direction? Have them moving towards it, or guide their eyes or ears towards the direction before you hit them with the moment.

Because the Baron appearance happens in a wide open area, while you've got enemies on every side, and you can approach the ridge from any direction, it's very poorly framed.

That's not true, though. I literally just finished that quest on my second character, I have no idea how you missed it. They spawn immediately after you walk out of the cave, and unless you turned to look at the cave wall as you exited, you'd have to be staring right at them.

I suppose it's possible that you could turn immediately after exiting the cave and not be close enough to trigger them spawning, but you'd have to be ignoring the nav marker on you HUD, and you'd have to turn really quick. They spawned in three steps outside the cave.

Bungie did everything possible to do exactly what you described, save for literally taking control from players and just having it be a cutscene.

When you go through the second door (after the rock wall disappears), you can either drop down into the cave, or go to the right, which has you right below the ridge (at an angle that makes it impossible to see). Maybe I triggered them too soon.

Also, IIRC, the cave exit doesn’t quite point towards the ridge, but towards the door where you meet up with Spider’s minions, which is the direction Sammy went. Plus, you’re in the middle of a fight with Scorn, so many players will be distracted with that. The first time, I didn’t even hear Ghost say “there, on the ridge”.

During one of the Dead Space ViDocs, the devs talked about how, if you don't take control from the player's hands, they can miss around 20-40% of scripted moments. One of the keys to preventing this is framing:
Want them to be looking in a certain direction? Have them moving towards it, or guide their eyes or ears towards the direction before you hit them with the moment.

Because the Baron appearance happens in a wide open area, while you've got enemies on every side, and you can approach the ridge from any direction, it's very poorly framed.

That's not true, though. I literally just finished that quest on my second character, I have no idea how you missed it. They spawn immediately after you walk out of the cave, and unless you turned to look at the cave wall as you exited, you'd have to be staring right at them.

I suppose it's possible that you could turn immediately after exiting the cave and not be close enough to trigger them spawning, but you'd have to be ignoring the nav marker on you HUD, and you'd have to turn really quick. They spawned in three steps outside the cave.

Bungie did everything possible to do exactly what you described, save for literally taking control from players and just having it be a cutscene.

In any event, Vestian Dynasty doesn't 'sound' like that, so wouldn't that have to mean it was 'Ace of Spades' firing anyway?

Normal humans don’t know about guardians.

I distinctly remember a normal person in the tower commenting in a random voice line that many people in the city don’t even believe guardians are real.

After the D2 campaign they’d better.

Yes, granted this was back in House of Wolves when I heard that line.

Normal humans don’t know about guardians.

I distinctly remember a normal person in the tower commenting in a random voice line that many people in the city don’t even believe guardians are real.

After the D2 campaign they’d better.

I distinctly remember a normal person in the tower commenting in a random voice line that many people in the city don’t even believe guardians are real.

Also, I think it is important to look at Zavala and Ikora both in the context of D1 (Major threats abounds, but the City itself was generally safe.) Zavala didn’t trust Rasputin and believed in our Guardian and protecting the City. He continues to act to those same considerations but the Red War got him shook. All of Destiny 2 has seen the Vanguard reacting to Trauma (past and current) and I think there is definitely a lot more showing that Zavala is exhausted in more ways than one and he feels a much greater need to protect what he can at all costs because he failed to the last time.

Ikora extrapolates in a similar fashion.

The problem is that I basically agreed with Zavala, given the information on hand. The real threat in the story wasn't Uldren, it was the person they were working for. That wasn't the thesis Zavala was responding to, though, and Petra never interacts with Zavala. She just recruits Cayde to clean up her mess without actually telling anyone what's really going on, or how her own actions precipitated the crisis (at least, not until it's over) and then Zavala and Ikora fight over whether or not it's worth taking the risk to get revenge on Uldren.

Zavala concludes, rightly I think, that it isn't. It IS worth it to figure out what's going on in the Dreaming City that poses a bigger threat, but that's not the argument Ikora is making, and there's actually no hint that Zavala knows or is ever told anything about it.

If only our guardian could speak more than a few words, we could have told him...

He wanted to cut bait on Titan during the Red War.

even after defeating whatever in the hell that was, he still lectures us. We just saved the solar system AGAIN from some cosmic fantastical beast thing. Uldren hates humans and guardians, always has. Taking him out was best for the city. Sitting on you hands waiting for them to amass an army is not.

At what point does non-guardian humans start to disbelieve in the vanguard and start worshiping our guardian? Our guardian has succeeded where thousands of very famous guardians have failed.

That would be an interesting plot line where Zavala could actually turn against us. What if Zavala and the speaker had been using the Traveler for their own personal gains. Zavala is trying to keep us in check b/c he's afraid of us learning too much.

When playing warmind, and we help Anna Bray hack into the facility, and when we open the door, Zavala was standing there, i was thinking how in the eff did he get down here? Then he was content to let a worm god run rampant all over mars and told us not to get involved. Something just doesn't sit right with me about him.

I disagree that it cheapens the question, but I think the "we're evil zombies" idea can and probably will crop up later, and I'd rather have the clarifying moment (player choice or not) towards the end of the series.

I have a theory that it will be the Traveler who is shown to be less-than benevolent. Not evil, but selfish, and the Ghosts and Guardians will force its hand in favor of Humanity/Eliksni, even if it takes a few Warsats trained on him to keep him form escaping the Darkness once more.

Plausible.

Plenty of other games have nailed the question and answer to this scenario.

Again, I like how it was handled at this point in the series.

It's weird that they ask this question in such a rushed way, though. Sure, the Mad Bomber posits the question as we're crossing off the list, and Ghost reassures us about it, but very little about it has any impact on our motivations throughout (more so since some of the Barons are brought back to life after the game anyway).

I would totally kill for a moment like the end of Metal Gear Solid 3, though, were we come to the realization that nothing was as it seemed, and it hits you that you're just one pawn in a bigger game, down to having no choice but to pull the trigger to continue the game.

I mean. He was still a spiteful antagonist long before the Beholder got his phone number, and he clearly showed no remorse after he was "cured". Not a redeemable character. Maybe with better writing in-game.

Yeah, sure, the hatred of guardians is strong in this one. Should we become like those who hate us?

I love the way Warframe handled this question throughout the entirety of the "War Within" quest. Your character, a Tenno, was feared and hated, and brought about Warframe's version of The Collapse. You are directly responsible for the extinction of an entire civilization... But you did it for love. The same motivation as the game's main antagonist. You were no better; worse, in fact, because while he betrayed his own people, you slaughtered them... but you don't remember any of it.

So at six or seven different points during the quest, you are given an opportunity to remember something, or remember how you felt about it. Depending on your choices, your character develops a Day/Night/Balanced morality.
Were they right about you? Or were you not what they made you seem? Or are you a completely different person than the one you were before?
All of these choices are presented to you, so you can decide who your character is.

Thanks for the examples.

Personally. I would have had my character nod at Petra, and walk off. She earned her revenge (since she actually cared about Cayde and her people), and I completed my mission of hunting down Cayde's killers (no more, no less).

That's what I imagine for my character, too.

In this instance, Uldren ends up dead no matter what you choose, so it really should have been made into a player-driven moment.

Yeah, but Destiny doesn't have a Paragon/Renegade meter, and I think there are larger narrative issues at play regarding the nature of guardians, so it's a bigger question than which means do I use to pursue good ends.

Speaking of western conventions, one of my favorite moments in the campaign was when the barons show up in silhouette along the ridge. Classic.

Sadly, Neither Sammy nor I caught that. Wasn't until I ran my second character that I noticed it. Very nice, easily-missable moment.

Yeah. I like Gears instead of loving it, but one of its innovations was giving us a hud indicator at certain moments and a quick way to automatically direct the camera to something worth seeing in game. It's a nice solution.

During one of the Dead Space ViDocs, the devs talked about how, if you don't take control from the player's hands, they can miss around 20-40% of scripted moments. One of the keys to preventing this is framing:
Want them to be looking in a certain direction? Have them moving towards it, or guide their eyes or ears towards the direction before you hit them with the moment.

Because the Baron appearance happens in a wide open area, while you've got enemies on every side, and you can approach the ridge from any direction, it's very poorly framed.

Bungie could have had a heavily-damaged Fallen skiff taking off away from the Scorn, only to get shot down and fall behind the ridge as the Fanatic came into view, followed by the Barons. That way you're showing how the Fallen and Scorn don't get along, you're directing the player's focus, and you are guiding them towards their next destination, and you're eating your cake by having a western shot.

That would've worked well.

TLDR: I think if you look really closely you can figure out what Bungie's version is, but its presented in a way that lets you decide the outcome. #HanShotFirst

Hey, hold on there. I'm a true-blue believer that Han Shot first. Literally got the T-shirt. The dumb thing about what Lucas changed was that Han shooting first was Han's best chance at survival. He knew Greedo wouldn't hesitate to shoot him under the table, and there was no guarantee that Greedo would miss. Uldren was unarmed and had two guns aimed at him, so it wasn't really a stand-off situation. When your ghost says "Not this way" he's acknowledging that shooting an unarmed man isn't honorable.

I don't think there is a Bungie version except to make it ambigious.

I disagree that it cheapens the question, but I think the "we're evil zombies" idea can and probably will crop up later, and I'd rather have the clarifying moment (player choice or not) towards the end of the series.

I have a theory that it will be the Traveler who is shown to be less-than benevolent. Not evil, but selfish, and the Ghosts and Guardians will force its hand in favor of Humanity/Eliksni, even if it takes a few Warsats trained on him to keep him form escaping the Darkness once more.

Plenty of other games have nailed the question and answer to this scenario.

Again, I like how it was handled at this point in the series.

It's weird that they ask this question in such a rushed way, though. Sure, the Mad Bomber posits the question as we're crossing off the list, and Ghost reassures us about it, but very little about it has any impact on our motivations throughout (more so since some of the Barons are brought back to life after the game anyway).

I would totally kill for a moment like the end of Metal Gear Solid 3, though, were we come to the realization that nothing was as it seemed, and it hits you that you're just one pawn in a bigger game, down to having no choice but to pull the trigger to continue the game.

I mean. He was still a spiteful antagonist long before the Beholder got his phone number, and he clearly showed no remorse after he was "cured". Not a redeemable character. Maybe with better writing in-game.

Yeah, sure, the hatred of guardians is strong in this one. Should we become like those who hate us?

I love the way Warframe handled this question throughout the entirety of the "War Within" quest. Your character, a Tenno, was feared and hated, and brought about Warframe's version of The Collapse. You are directly responsible for the extinction of an entire civilization... But you did it for love. The same motivation as the game's main antagonist. You were no better; worse, in fact, because while he betrayed his own people, you slaughtered them... but you don't remember any of it.

So at six or seven different points during the quest, you are given an opportunity to remember something, or remember how you felt about it. Depending on your choices, your character develops a Day/Night/Balanced morality.
Were they right about you? Or were you not what they made you seem? Or are you a completely different person than the one you were before?
All of these choices are presented to you, so you can decide who your character is.

Personally. I would have had my character nod at Petra, and walk off. She earned her revenge (since she actually cared about Cayde and her people), and I completed my mission of hunting down Cayde's killers (no more, no less).

In this instance, Uldren ends up dead no matter what you choose, so it really should have been made into a player-driven moment.

Speaking of western conventions, one of my favorite moments in the campaign was when the barons show up in silhouette along the ridge. Classic.

Sadly, Neither Sammy nor I caught that. Wasn't until I ran my second character that I noticed it. Very nice, easily-missable moment.

Yeah. I like Gears instead of loving it, but one of its innovations was giving us a hud indicator at certain moments and a quick way to automatically direct the camera to something worth seeing in game. It's a nice solution.

During one of the Dead Space ViDocs, the devs talked about how, if you don't take control from the player's hands, they can miss around 20-40% of scripted moments. One of the keys to preventing this is framing:
Want them to be looking in a certain direction? Have them moving towards it, or guide their eyes or ears towards the direction before you hit them with the moment.

Because the Baron appearance happens in a wide open area, while you've got enemies on every side, and you can approach the ridge from any direction, it's very poorly framed.

Bungie could have had a heavily-damaged Fallen skiff taking off away from the Scorn, only to get shot down and fall behind the ridge as the Fanatic came into view, followed by the Barons. That way you're showing how the Fallen and Scorn don't get along, you're directing the player's focus, and you are guiding them towards their next destination, and you're eating your cake by having a western shot.

I mean sure, it technically is, because of the cut and we don't see anything.

But our Guardian lowers their gun at one point, then right before the gun raises it and points it at Uldren again. That seems pretty clear to me.

My Guardian certainly pulled the trigger. ;)

I thought it was implied Petra did it via Venstian Dynasty.

And I thought it was implied that both guns fired.

Apparently, they did a pretty good job of leaving it ambiguous. :)

Which is for the best, at least to the extent that it would have gone a way towards answering Uldren's question about our goodness.

The key to a good armor-piercing question is the reply, or lack thereof. By making it "ambiguous", they cheapen the question. What happened after should have been player choice, not a cut to black if the end result is the same.

I disagree that it cheapens the question, but I think the "we're evil zombies" idea can and probably will crop up later, and I'd rather have the clarifying moment (player choice or not) towards the end of the series.

Plenty of other games have nailed the question and answer to this scenario.

Again, I like how it was handled at this point in the series.

I realize that one of the conventions of this western-themed expansion is rugged justice, but Uldren was obviously manipulated, and I like that idea that my guardian might have shown mercy at the last.

I mean. He was still a spiteful antagonist long before the Beholder got his phone number, and he clearly showed no remorse after he was "cured". Not a redeemable character. Maybe with better writing in-game.

Yeah, sure, the hatred of guardians is strong in this one. Should we become like those who hate us?

Speaking of western conventions, one of my favorite moments in the campaign was when the barons show up in silhouette along the ridge. Classic.

Sadly, Neither Sammy nor I caught that. Wasn't until I ran my second character that I noticed it. Very nice, easily-missable moment.

Yeah. I like Gears instead of loving it, but one of its innovations was giving us a hud indicator at certain moments and a quick way to automatically direct the camera to something worth seeing in game. It's a nice solution.

I mean sure, it technically is, because of the cut and we don't see anything.

But our Guardian lowers their gun at one point, then right before the gun raises it and points it at Uldren again. That seems pretty clear to me.

My Guardian certainly pulled the trigger. ;)

I thought it was implied Petra did it via Venstian Dynasty.

And I thought it was implied that both guns fired.

Apparently, they did a pretty good job of leaving it ambiguous. :)

Which is for the best, at least to the extent that it would have gone a way towards answering Uldren's question about our goodness.

I realize that one of the conventions of this western-themed expansion is rugged justice, but Uldren was obviously manipulated, and I like that idea that my guardian might have shown mercy at the last.

+1
I agree. And my headcanon is right there with you.

I do think Bungie's version is "Both Petra and the Guardian kill Uldren". Everything from the Theme of the story, the Line "You won't have to, Uldren Sov is mine." to our Guardian's actions of lowering then raising their weapon after Uldren's line about the Light and Dark, implies that we weighed that statement, and found him still in the wrong. The text presented with Petra gives you Vespian makes it pretty clear she shot too. I think the biggest clue is the gunshot itself. You can definitely hear Vespian, but I think its way too loud for only a sidearm shot. There's definitely hand cannon audio mixed in there.

TLDR: I think if you look really closely you can figure out what Bungie's version is, but its presented in a way that lets you decide the outcome. #HanShotFirst