Right. There's some really good reasons to not have AI controlled Guardians. But, heck, we've got Frames. Have a dropship ferry in some of them and give them a variety of funny voices and personalities. (Something that is already pretty well established in the lore!)

That would bring back some of the humor that Halo integrated so well.

I suspect one obstacle to having more of this sort of thing is the structure of the game, the open world aspect, and public spaces. Many missions transition through private and public spaces and maybe they just can't figure out how friendly AI would handle these different contexts. If Cayde's with you, does he stop and help you with a public event that just started?

Maybe at some point AI allies weren't considered as necessary because of the presence of drop-in matchmaking with real players. On paper Destiny seems like this really cool, dynamic, unpredictable playground, but what's missing is meaningful context, which I think is the point of your thread.

I can see it in missions. Not public spaces. It's possible that the unit count might start getting maxed in some place spaces such that they have to make a choice between more baddies + encounters or friendlies to help you out. And ultimately, people would much rather fight a hoard of baddies then have sub-par frames helping you out.

Missions on the other hand can be carefully scripted to allow dropped in frames though. I mean, I don't know what the limitations are, but most likely it's that they just don't have time to script in an AI and test all the shit that goes with that. I mean, adding in a friendly AI is a core mechanic that would have to be thoroughly tested.

Yep, it would be a big deal. And missions isn't restrictive enough because of the way Destiny works. Most missions intersect with public spaces. I guess they could make each mission space closed off instances (like Blighted Coven, for example) but I think they make those exceptions rare because it kind of goes against the core design. They've invested a ton of work to drop-in matchmaking to work seamlessly so I bet there is some internal resistance to turning that off.

Right. There's some really good reasons to not have AI controlled Guardians. But, heck, we've got Frames. Have a dropship ferry in some of them and give them a variety of funny voices and personalities. (Something that is already pretty well established in the lore!)

That would bring back some of the humor that Halo integrated so well.

I suspect one obstacle to having more of this sort of thing is the structure of the game, the open world aspect, and public spaces. Many missions transition through private and public spaces and maybe they just can't figure out how friendly AI would handle these different contexts. If Cayde's with you, does he stop and help you with a public event that just started?

Maybe at some point AI allies weren't considered as necessary because of the presence of drop-in matchmaking with real players. On paper Destiny seems like this really cool, dynamic, unpredictable playground, but what's missing is meaningful context, which I think is the point of your thread.

I can see it in missions. Not public spaces. It's possible that the unit count might start getting maxed in some place spaces such that they have to make a choice between more baddies + encounters or friendlies to help you out. And ultimately, people would much rather fight a hoard of baddies then have sub-par frames helping you out.

Missions on the other hand can be carefully scripted to allow dropped in frames though. I mean, I don't know what the limitations are, but most likely it's that they just don't have time to script in an AI and test all the shit that goes with that. I mean, adding in a friendly AI is a core mechanic that would have to be thoroughly tested.

It doesn't hurt to have more scripted encounters. Just seeing npcs in the wild and being able to talk to them is a plus. If all it was was Zevala killing hive outside his starship on titan, or ikora ripping into cabal while you push on, the game works better then just the occasional radio chatter.

I agree. This would have to be limited to private areas, though.

I was thinking more about what I mentioned above: the difficulty of figuring out how a NPC character who is following your fireteam would behave in public spaces that have random activities like public events happening. You could potentially have two different fireteams in the same area with two Zavalas along for the ride. AWKWARD.

This is super easy to fix. Either:

1. Don't match groups with the same NPC together in public spaces.
2. Match them, but have the NPC appear as a normal guardian for the other group.

I doubt that either of these are "super easy"--especially number two.

Another difficult problem is what to do about supers. Programming that behavior based on situations would be challenging, I bet. And if they never use supers, how would it break immersion to have the vanguard be the worst players around? I am coming around to thinking that non-player guardians in the game are unworkable except during scripted events. I still like the idea of using frames, though.

It doesn't hurt to have more scripted encounters. Just seeing npcs in the wild and being able to talk to them is a plus. If all it was was Zevala killing hive outside his starship on titan, or ikora ripping into cabal while you push on, the game works better then just the occasional radio chatter.

I agree. This would have to be limited to private areas, though.

I was thinking more about what I mentioned above: the difficulty of figuring out how a NPC character who is following your fireteam would behave in public spaces that have random activities like public events happening. You could potentially have two different fireteams in the same area with two Zavalas along for the ride. AWKWARD.

This is super easy to fix. Either:

1. Don't match groups with the same NPC together in public spaces.
2. Match them, but have the NPC appear as a normal guardian for the other group.

It doesn't hurt to have more scripted encounters. Just seeing npcs in the wild and being able to talk to them is a plus. If all it was was Zevala killing hive outside his starship on titan, or ikora ripping into cabal while you push on, the game works better then just the occasional radio chatter.

I agree. This would have to be limited to private areas, though.

I was thinking more about what I mentioned above: the difficulty of figuring out how a NPC character who is following your fireteam would behave in public spaces that have random activities like public events happening. You could potentially have two different fireteams in the same area with two Zavalas along for the ride. AWKWARD.

In Bungie’s Halo games, of course the player character (usually the Master Chief, but also the Rookie and Noble 6 and the Arbiter) did a bunch of important things. Ultimately we defeated the Flood and the Covenant among many many other acts of small and large scale. But, in the Halo series, storyline characters also did a lot. For instance:

[snip]

I want the Destiny that was supposed to be “bigger than Halo.”

Destiny IS bigger than Halo, and characters do do things.

The player character in Destiny doesn't do everything because they can't-- there are too many of them.

This complaint is literally about the problem that the entire fictional universe in Destiny doesn't revolve around the player character the way it does in most FPS games.

If anything, the parts of latter D1 and D2 that ring weird to me are the bits where they try and make it sound like the world does revolve around you.

When Holliday says that you're the Guardian that Zavala "won't shut up about"... who is she talking about? Me? Or every other damn Guardian in the Tower?

When Cayde says we've got "the Guardian"... which one does he mean?

Heck, if anything the unit around which Destiny's story should revolve is the fireteam, not "the Guardian".

I completely agree. And your post prompted another thought. They manage to have different dialogue that reflects your gender or even whether your character experienced D1. Would it be that hard to have the dialogue reflect whether you're playing as a fireteam. That would underscore this unique aspect of Destiny--that you are one of many.

In Bungie’s Halo games, of course the player character (usually the Master Chief, but also the Rookie and Noble 6 and the Arbiter) did a bunch of important things. Ultimately we defeated the Flood and the Covenant among many many other acts of small and large scale. But, in the Halo series, storyline characters also did a lot. For instance:

[snip]

I want the Destiny that was supposed to be “bigger than Halo.”

Destiny IS bigger than Halo, and characters do do things.

The player character in Destiny doesn't do everything because they can't-- there are too many of them.

This complaint is literally about the problem that the entire fictional universe in Destiny doesn't revolve around the player character the way it does in most FPS games.

If anything, the parts of latter D1 and D2 that ring weird to me are the bits where they try and make it sound like the world does revolve around you.

When Holliday says that you're the Guardian that Zavala "won't shut up about"... who is she talking about? Me? Or every other damn Guardian in the Tower?

When Cayde says we've got "the Guardian"... which one does he mean?

Heck, if anything the unit around which Destiny's story should revolve is the fireteam, not "the Guardian".

NPCs in levels, doing stuff and interacting. Why we only got this on the first level in D2, and never again, boggles my mind.

We didn’t even get it on the first level. All the NPC stuff was scripted. They weren’t acting as AI companions responding dynamically.

It being scripted doesn't mean it's not there, or not real. I think that's fine, we just need a lot more of it. Making good AI for friendly Guardians and having it feel right and satisfying is probably a huge challenge, and those resources are probably better spent elsewhere.

I don't mind stuff like that being scripted, as long as it feels good. I'm not sure that the stuff in the opening level does feel good. You're completely safe from those missiles as long as you are more than like fifteen feet from Zavala. They are all aimed exclusively at this bubble. You can't damage the Cabal that Cayde-6 or Ikora take out. That sort of sucks and makes me keenly aware I'm playing a scripted sequence, but I think it's ultimately fine, as it at least gives the impression that those characters are there with us, fighting, defending the City, and it's better than the alternative of them not being there at all.

We need more of that, though. When we land on Titan, why don't we see Zavala from a distance, fighting on another platform. You could have built Cayde into that boss fight somehow. Maybe do something to momentarily free Cayde and let him fire off a few Golden Gun shots at the boss. Scripted sequences can be good and immersive, and help make the world feel alive. The stuff in the opening level sure did, at least on the first playthrough.

And honestly, I still think they need to give the vendors different routines, make them patrol the Tower. I understand that's inconvenient, but it's not there aren't map markers. Having the Tower be exactly the same with everyone just standing in the exact same spot is perhaps the biggest immersion breaker in the entire game. It makes the entire world feel fake for me.

NPCs in levels, doing stuff and interacting. Why we only got this on the first level in D2, and never again, boggles my mind.

We didn’t even get it on the first level. All the NPC stuff was scripted. They weren’t acting as AI companions responding dynamically.

Right. There's some really good reasons to not have AI controlled Guardians. But, heck, we've got Frames. Have a dropship ferry in some of them and give them a variety of funny voices and personalities. (Something that is already pretty well established in the lore!)

That would bring back some of the humor that Halo integrated so well.

I suspect one obstacle to having more of this sort of thing is the structure of the game, the open world aspect, and public spaces. Many missions transition through private and public spaces and maybe they just can't figure out how friendly AI would handle these different contexts. If Cayde's with you, does he stop and help you with a public event that just started?

Maybe at some point AI allies weren't considered as necessary because of the presence of drop-in matchmaking with real players. On paper Destiny seems like this really cool, dynamic, unpredictable playground, but what's missing is meaningful context, which I think is the point of your thread.

Right. There's some really good reasons to not have AI controlled Guardians. But, heck, we've got Frames. Have a dropship ferry in some of them and give them a variety of funny voices and personalities. (Something that is already pretty well established in the lore!)

Yeah I'm still waiting for a Redjacks side mission in game (not that I actually expect it).

In Halo, we are literally defending our lives. The goal of the Covenant was to eliminate our existence (before we even knew about the Halo array). When making a last stand for survival, there is nothing more heroic and noble than sacrificing yourself so the others can survive the encounter or attempting that long shot tactic, because, the only other option is extinction.

In Destiny, we are defending our lives but also defending the Traveler. Cabal and Fallen don't care that much about us personally, they just want the Traveler and we are standing in the way. We are the defenders against the aggressors that are circumstantially attacking us. When defending a third party, you either succeed or fail. You can't sacrifice yourself in that situation, you just die.

(Definitely some nuance in what I just said, but hopefully you understand the point I was trying to make.)

For Ikora:

I think her storyline in Destiny 2 was suppose to be about a couple of things. First and foremost, Ikora ran away from her duties as a Guardian because she was terrified of dying. There are moments that this comes through well enough when you stand near her on Io. It’s subtle but it’s there. The second change in her character in Destiny 2 seemed to be about... admitting that she did not have all the answers.

For her, there are a number of ways I might go. First, I’d have her discover something new. Something about the Light or Darkness that was previously unknown. Perhaps something troubling. It’s already been hinted at that Light and Darkness are two sides of the same coin, for instance. So I’d have her struggle with that. Explore that. Maybe abuse it a little before choosing the Light.

To fulfill and continue her fear of dying her final death, I think she need to react or possibly even overreact to her cowardice and fear. Maybe this would take the form throwing herself into impossible situations. Or maybe that’s what Guardians already do and instead she might do something like push herself to exhaustion engaging The City’s enemies again and again while doing her best not to be hit or injured or killed. Maybe without using her Light.

“We must all be ready to fight at our best even if the Light fails us as it has before and may do again,” Ikora insisted when she was finally able catch her breath.

Or, maybe she seeks out pain and punishment. Going into battle but not healing herself / allowing her Ghost to heal. Imagine her taking perverse pleasure in feeling her lifeblood draining away. It would be up to us or another character to pull her back from the sick path she has put herself on. Alas, Destiny is only T for Teen...

For Cayde-6

He actually did alright by going out and doing something kinda useful in Destiny, but at the same time he wasn’t at all effective without help. I wouldn’t want to pull Cayde-6 completely away from humor, but at the same time he needs to realize that his inability to work with Vex tech nearly cost Humanity the Red War.

I’m actually having a hard time “fixing” Cayde. How exactly do you mix his humor and impulsiveness with understanding and determination to not mess up again? It’s really a tough nut to crack. Here’s the best I came up with:

Cayde-6 needs someone to be concerned about on a personal level. Honestly, I think pairing him with one of the Ikora versions above might work. They already have something of a respectful yet slightly playful chemistry the few times they interact. Burdening Cayde-6 with a self destructive Ikora would make it so he has to blunt his wisecracks and playfulness in order to try and convince her that her choices are hurting her and others. Have Cayde-6 be a friend who is deeply concerned for the wellbeing of his friend.

Then, near the end of that story, you can have Cayde-6 break out the humor a little as the worst of the other person’s problems or issues start to fade into the past.

“I... honstely did not think you would follow me so far into this mistake of my making. Or that it would be you who pulled me back from it. Thank you,” Ikora said, as he helped her up.

“I had to... and... well... none of you ever have credited me with good decisions. Maybe I’m just here to prove you right,” Cayde-6 replied with a goad that saw the Warlock beside him unable to hold back a genuine smile.

For Zavala:

It’s a good bit easier to address the next steps of a commander who nearly lost everything. Under Zavala’s command, The City stopped expanding after The Battle of Twilight Gap. It contracted back into its tall, strong walls and effectively abandoned nearby territory regardless of the strategic value. This worked fine when The City was more or less unassailable, but by having everyone huddled in one place, they were easy pickings for the Red Legion when the Guardians lost their Light.

What Zavala should want to do is kick off a new age of expansion for The City. He would reach out to what towns and settlements exist outside The City and offer them City weapons and manpower. The Guardians under his command would be used more for strikes against enemy targets and less for defensive patrols and garrisons.

To the player this might be seen in doing missions in support of outlying towns or clearing out enemy bases that would then become outlying settlements. It would be great to have a few missions where we assist or are assisted by the Forces of The City which would consist of Frames and non-Guardian military... oh and have Zavala on the ground leading some of these FOTC troops in at least one mission.

”It may cost us, but we will take that complex back from the Fallen and show them that they will NOT be allowed to rest anywhere that The City intends to stand,” the Vanguard commander said, rallying his troops for the upcoming battle.”

The plot is the literal machinations of the events - it's the things that happen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Princess_Bride_(film)#Plot

This tells you the plot. It tells you the events that happen. But it doesn't tell you the story. Reading the plot elicits basically no emotional response. But the story?

True love conquers all. Wesley's love for Buttercup. Fezzik's love for his friends. Inigo's love for his father. And a grandfather's love for his grandson. That's the story. That's why we love The Princess Bride.

The plot is merely how the story happens. But when there is no story, no larger idea, it's just people doing stuff. Destiny is all plot and no story. Making characters do things would not help unless it helps Bungie tell a story. All the Halos had a story. Destiny… not so much.