I feel like Snipers and shotguns should hold much more ammo and do more damage in PvE, to make them truly Heavy. As it stands, there's no reason to use either in PvE, when rockets and Swords do far more damage, and with more forgiving ammo.

Also, getting rid of all aim-assist should be a thing for Heavies. Half the time it just gets you killed anyway...

Yes, the former specials should have more ammo in PVE to offset the lack of comparative overall damage vs. Clusterbombs and swords.

In PVP however, you would have to go with slug rounds on shotguns, making them two shot unless you pull a head shot. Or reduce the damage so you need to shoot twice. Bungie has both of these in for the most part, but people don't use them much because of the difficulty in closing.

It just seems to me that you can't have the D1 setup avoid people leaning heavily on the specials over the primaries in PVP (and lets face it, this is primarily a PVP driven issue).

Tata

And I think they should… if used skillfully. But if you miss… then you should get wrecked by a primary. Primaries should not be as powerful as specials. They should just be easier to use, more forgiving, and more reliable than specials.

Risk / Reward.

I'm not sure how you can make shotguns less forgiving, nor snipers. Removal of the quick/swipe scope technique is a given, but that already has people up in arms in D2.

It's tough. If you do things like slowing player movement, then you promote camping. Slower reloads or fire rate helps, so players have to play smarter to manage the weapon. D2 did a great job balancing snipers; a body shot does fairly low damage, while headshots remain 1HK. People complain about snipers being underpowered, but the Borealis is one of the only Heavy weapons that I take into crucible (another being the Wardcliff coil, when I forget to switch out of it).

As much as some people whine about it, having a single player picking up Heavy at a time while trickling the drops throughout the game was a great way to balance the Heavy/special presence in a match, though Bungie decided to do that while also lumping Specials in with Heavies.

I feel like Snipers and shotguns should hold much more ammo and do more damage in PvE, to make them truly Heavy. As it stands, there's no reason to use either in PvE, when rockets and Swords do far more damage, and with more forgiving ammo.

Also, getting rid of all aim-assist should be a thing for Heavies. Half the time it just gets you killed anyway...

And I think they should… if used skillfully. But if you miss… then you should get wrecked by a primary. Primaries should not be as powerful as specials. They should just be easier to use, more forgiving, and more reliable than specials.

Risk / Reward.

I'm not sure how you can make shotguns less forgiving, nor snipers. Removal of the quick/swipe scope technique is a given, but that already has people up in arms in D2.

The fact that it's going to take 9 months to be able to mass dismantle shaders is ludicrous. If you're telling me that takes nearly all year to program and test I'm at a loss.

The key one is "priority". You miss it a lot.

Destiny 2 needs more weapons that matter, both in power and the hunt to acquire them. Exotics need to live up to their name. The most skillful or visceral weapons like Snipers, Shotguns, and Fusion Rifles need to return to glory. We’re on it.

This might not have come across strong enough in the update. The sandbox team is an amazingly talented group and are hard at work on changes.

Sounds promising.

You’re bang-on in terms of the analogies between scout rifles and sniper rifles, or SMGs and shotguns. There are major differences though.
Snipers and Shotguns have much much higher DPS potential, mitigated by limited ammo. They also have far more specific use cases.

Yes, you have to consider their benefit of burst damage and their overall ammunition pool. But their use-cases are generally based on range. The identification of snipers being too useful in D1 is associated with a general lack of draw backs to close range use (such as having a minimum range for bullet/aim magnetism to kick in or minimum crit ranges) with a variety of archetypes. Especially high Aim-Assist Snipers. But the specific use cases associated with them are based more actively around range. A shotgun and a sniper are at opposite extremes of the range/damage valley. They're on the hills at each side.

But a shotgun goes from 1-hit-kill to utterly useless . . . Sniper Rifles are extremely punishing against missed shots . . . as far away from enemy fire as possible, taking careful aim, pacing your shots, etc.

And here I'm thinking that our use of weapons in D1 was substantially different. I don't like sniping in PvP, camping lanes isn't exciting for me and I think quickscoping is a bane of modern shooters. But excluding slow-loing a NF in Y1 with Icebreaker I never had that specific experience with snipers in PvE. Period.

But all the kinetic and Energy Weapons will work with the same basic play style . . . the difference isn’t THAT great.

When it comes down to it, in D2, the differences between a shotgun and an SMG aren't that great. The only reason a Sniper is more different than a Scout is because of the slower overall TTK.

But the weapons aren't dictating most of the combat engagements or situations you are identifying, it is purely the range of your engagement. Yes, some may be more efficient (if you are hitting all your shots) but the specific weapon differences are more negligible. If you are engaging at the same ranges, you'll take the same cover. If you are engaging within melee range you will probably soften up and melee to secure the kill. If there was a high range Scout that could easily get a sub-one-second TTK in PvP people would likely use it exactly how you describe snipers get used.

There are absolutely subtle differences between . . . nothing that completely changes your approach to an encounter the way going from a D1 primary to a D1 Special would. And I miss that variety.

When it really comes down to it, selective changes to playstyle in D1, it isn't something inherent to the weapons themselves. That's my point. It would be nice to have more variety options available, like Scout Rifles that punch like trucks. Or a semi-auto shotgun that can't get a one-shot but has substantially more range and isn't a Power Weapon. Or having Machine Guns again.

Year 1 I used to play Crucible with Word of Crota, whatever shotgun or fusion seemed fun at the time, and Thunderlord. And WoC and TL both got used like Scout Rifles, because I used them at the ranges I used Scout Rifles. /shrug

I don't think they will move back to OHK weapons in the energy or primary slot. This was the prime source of balance issues in D1. You could never improve HCs, ARs, Pulse or Scouts enough to make them competitive with snipers or shotguns in the chosen field.

And I think they should… if used skillfully. But if you miss… then you should get wrecked by a primary. Primaries should not be as powerful as specials. They should just be easier to use, more forgiving, and more reliable than specials.

Risk / Reward.

I think the D1 Special concept isn't workable in a PVP environment along with more normal TTK guns. That seems born out with Titanfall, COD and BF both conspicuously avoiding adopting that setup even while they stole other ideas.

I'd say HoW crucible, with a few exceptions and outliers that needed tweaking, was the best PvP has ever been. A few exotics needed toning down, but that was about it.

If your rank only shows up in ranked playlists or activities, then what exactly is the problem?

See Robot's post.

And there is incentive to do all that in unranked playlists how?

I don’t particularly want ranks either. My experience with Halo 2’s matchmaking wasn’t anywhere near as bad as this thread is painting it, and I really don’t think it’ll matter much either way. I won’t respect any argument that flat out says anyone who wants competitive ranking is stupid though, and I’m a little troubled that anyone else does. Maybe you all are just better at ignoring his trolling than I am.

Is it though? Maybe he just hates ranks in the context of Bungie games?

He should say that then, instead of saying “ranks are bad and anyone who wants them is a whiny baby idiot.”

He didn't exactly say that in vacuum. The whole context of this thread is about Bungie's history with ranks and the people who are asking for it in a Bungie game. He comments never made me think Korny wanted to live in a society without any competition.

In Destiny 2, Kinetic and Energy Weapons essentially perform the same utility role.

So, in some regards, yes. In others, no. Kinetic weapons actually do more damage against unshielded enemies, by about 10% for Precision Auto Rifles for example. Both Crit and Non-Crit.

Against red bar Fallen in Outskirts in the EDZ, both at 335.
Origin Story
Crit: 75
NCrit: 30
Shield: 30

Uriel's Gift
Crit: 68
NCrit: 27
Shield: 81

I understand that regarding their base usage they are roughly the same, but that is more an effect of range than the actual weapon in most cases. A Sniper Rifle is used, tactically, in the same method as a Scout Rifle is, but most especially when you are using the Scout at greater distance. To contrast, you move around with an SMG in a similar fashion to the way you would with a Shotgun or Fusion Rifle, but they better resemble each other from an actual combat judgement standpoint the most when you use them at the same ranges.

Now, having more flexible ranges and/or more overlap in your Kinetic and Energy weapons will make them feel more similar, but going Scout/SMG is very similar, tactically, to Scout Shotgun, and to the same with Auto Rifle with a High Impact Scout to AR/Sniper.

You’re bang-on in terms of the analogies between scout rifles and sniper rifles, or SMGs and shotguns. There are major differences though. Snipers and Shotguns have much much higher DPS potential, mitigated by limited ammo. They also have far more specific use cases. I can use a Scout Rifle at close range and get away with it, just like I can use an SMG at medium range and scrape by. But a shotgun goes from 1-hit-kill to utterly useless in just a few steps. Sniper Rifles are extremely punishing against missed shots, due to small clips and limited ammo. So using a sniper involved getting as far away from enemy fire as possible, taking careful aim, pacing your shots, etc. But all the kinetic and Energy Weapons will work with the same basic play style. Like I said before, you’ll want to be a bit closer to your enemies if you’re using an SMG than you would using a Scout Rifle, but the difference isn’t THAT great. You’ll likely end up taking cover in most of the same places, using the same sightlines, killing adds in the same amount of time, roughly speaking. There are absolutely subtle differences between effectively using an Auto Rifle vs a Sidearm, or between using a kinetic weapon vs an energy weapon. But nothing that completely changes your approach to an encounter the way going from a D1 primary to a D1 Special would. And I miss that variety.

I understand that an inclusion of e-sports is, yes. However, I think it is pretty unfair to any professional player to suggest that their bar to entry was 60 bucks and thumbs.

Okay. 60 bucks, thumbs, and a whole lot of time. It’s almost like having competitive ranking in a game might allow players to judge their skill and provide a scale with which to judge improvement.