I'm serious, I genuinely don't know.

Was that moment good to people? The music is cool, but the Hive come in the doorway almost literally single file and you kill them one by one for a minute and a half.

I think he means that it's the only point in any destiny game where your actions actually have a visible effect on the game world. You pressed a button, and the antenna opened. Nowhere else do your actions make anything change.

Honestly? The former.

But at a certain point, I’d rather Destiny be a completely different game than it actually is, so that’s really just on me. I love the always connected game that Destiny is, I really do, but I still think they had to sacrifice too much to make it that way. I’d rather have a game in the Festiny universe that’s actually just Halo: Reach in terms of experience. I’d still much rather play literally any Bungie Halo level than any Destiny story mission.

Again, that’s on me, and something I probably just need to let go of at this point, but it’s honestly sort of difficult to do, but I still think the very nature of the type of game Destiny is prevents us from getting features that were standard in Halo, and I’m not convinced it’s worth the trade off.

This is the track my brain has been running on for a while now. I don't think there is a single Destiny story mission that comes close to matching pretty much any Halo campaign mission in terms of encounter design, replayability, or storytelling. For whatever reason, Destiny's strengths just seem to fall elsewhere. And that's totally great, except that such a large portion of every Destiny release is built around these mediocre campaign missions. They just aren't very good when compared to Bungie's past work, or other modern AAA shooters. Nor do they hold a candle to the best stuff in Destiny, none of which happens during the campaigns.

I'd argue that the final mission in the City is fantastic and plays fully to Destiny's strengths. I also really like the "in the sun" portions of the Almighty missions, but the room where you "clear the blockage" was kind of ho-hum in that same mission.

Part of the problem I have with most of Destiny's gameplay is that the enemies don't really have anything close to reactive AI. It makes very little different where you are, what you do, how you fight... The enemies always do the same things all the time, which makes every fight seem very same-y. Enemies never move to flank you, don't hide while you have a super active, don't duck behind cover when taking fire, etc etc. We've all come to expect more from modern FPS games. There also aren't very many truly hectic fights - the best strategy is almost always to just stay as far away as possible and plink at the bad guys. Enemy grenades don't have blast radii big enough to really force you out of cover and enemy aim is good enough that even a max mobility character can't just sprint across the battlefield and dodge fire (lol sprint speed is the same for all players regardless of mobility, what a joke) and supers and heavies don't actually do all that much damage so they're relegated more to crowd control of weak enemies than to actually clutch you out of a losing situation and turn the tide in battle.

Just comparing to Halo (yes, Halo 1), killing an elite often caused the grunts to panic and flee. Sticking an enemy with a grenade either made them panic if they were a grunt or give the defiant roar if they were an elite. The only similar interaction I can recall in Destiny is the husks backing away from you in certain circumstances, or fruitlessly covering their heads when grenades land near them. Most other enemies just ignore them, and either die due to stupidity or shrug them off as if they were nothing. Neither result is satisfying. Heck, the enemies in Halo would also drop their own grenades, which allowed for magnificent cascades of grenade explosions and dynamic, sometimes unexpected, sometimes carefully orchestrated, dare I say emergent, combat situations. Also jeep launching.

Destiny is a game that you play near your friends, but - with the exception of raids and a very small number of boss fights - not really *with* your friends. There aren't team attacks, it's impossible to suppress enemies or draw their fire in order to help your teammates to maneuver. the "team buffs" each class provides kinda universally suck (I like the warlock circle, but it doesn't feel powerful so much as neat; the hunter "buff" is so bad as to not even be worth bothering since you're locked out of so many other perks by choosing the 'team buff' spec). Coordination is neither required nor encouraged outside of raids, and often just doing your own thing is the optimal playstyle. Somewhat ironically, the problem I have with PvE is a lack of coordination whereas the problem I have with PvP is that too much coordination is required. Destiny has been designed by overreactions to community pressure when it comes to balance, and the result is that everything feels constantly out of whack rather than at all like it's approaching something reliable, stable, and fun.

I've ranged far afield here, but I think that last city mission was FANTASTIC and it's a shame (tragedy, really) that nothing in CoO is at all like that, with other guardians popping up mid-mission, or encountering other strike teams at the end boss or even en route through the infinite forest.

Okay, that's a fair point, I guess. I like one of those levels (whichever one had the big vehicle segment, with Flood infested Warthogs driving around). So exclude two levels (The Library) from my statement, and then it's completely true. I'd rather play any Halo level except one, any Halo 2 level except one, and any Halo level from any Bungie Halo game (and most 343i Halo levels, too) than any Destiny mission.

Other than disagreeing about The Library, that is fair. Though I don’t think I hold the Campaigns of 3/5 in nearly as high regard.

I really do try to approach Destiny on its own terms. And I really enjoy Destiny. But I don't think Destiny holds up its end of the bargain when it tries to do the Halo thing. It gives us so much more than Halo does in its connected nature, public spaces, and raids, and I would hold up some strikes as comparable to some good Halo missions, but it's campaign missions do very little for me, and I think I'd be happier if Destiny stopped trying to do so many things at once and instead focused down a little bit.

You bring up an interesting point here about it trying “to do the Halo thing” because I agree. When mission beats feel like they are from a Halo fan project, no matter how well executed, they will feel somewhat hollow. When Destiny does its own thing it tends to be stronger. Honestly, I’m in total agreement about the connected nature. In the story missions and adventures and what not the best parts are when the game intersects with other players doing other things.

Again, I love Destiny. I liked playing through the campaign, I think it was a fun experience. It just isn't as good as it obviously could be, and it makes up such a small percentage of my play time, that I have to wonder if its worth it. I honestly have mixed feelings on the whole thing, and I really have a hard time articulating those feelings.

What I have articulated to friends in the past is that I think Destiny is held back by people desiring a traditional Halo-style campaign. Period. And that the game world would have been better served as a more generally open world experience. Even instancing things, I think a Quest Structure is better suited and doesn’t take anything away from the ability to tell those same stories, just within the world structure instead of a sequence of isolated missions. For all my enjoyment of the campaign (six 1-20 completions of it on two platforms) the world is the strongest part of Destiny and I would have preferred more of it over shoehorning a Halo campaign inside it.

I just know that Destiny feels to me like a game that's caught in a weird in between, like it's not quite sure what type of game it wants to be.

Sadly, I think some of that will always be there. Less sadly, I have made my peace with that across all games. As rarely they ever fulfill the potential I’d like the see from their root concepts. Except Psychonauts. That game is perfect.

I would like to say i appreciate the perspective that you understand bringing your own paste favorable experiences and memories in with you to your gaming experience. I have in the past found myself enjoying things more due to a familiarity that might not be the best fit for someone else. As a separate example, my appreciation of Horizon Zero Dawn is much greater than what i have for Breath of the Wild and no small part because of how some aspects felt very strongly like New Tomb Raider. But you kinda lose me here:

I’d still much rather play literally any Bungie Halo level than any Destiny story mission.

I cannot fathom wanting to play Floodgate or Quarantine Zone over King of the Mountain or Eye of A Gate Lord or 1AU. Not even touching on strikes or Raids in that regard.

I think it is fair that overall the Halo Campaigns have a better track record than Destiny story missions, but anyone suggesting that they are invariably more enjoyable than Destiny missions does me a boggle.

Okay, that's a fair point, I guess. I like one of those levels (whichever one had the big vehicle segment, with Flood infested Warthogs driving around). So exclude two levels (The Library) from my statement, and then it's completely true. I'd rather play any Halo level except one, any Halo 2 level except one, and any Halo level from any Bungie Halo game (and most 343i Halo levels, too) than any Destiny mission.

I think Destiny suffers from lack of vehicles and lack of friendly AI. It feels like a rote shooting gallery by comparison to Halo.

I really do try to approach Destiny on its own terms. And I really enjoy Destiny. But I don't think Destiny holds up its end of the bargain when it tries to do the Halo thing. It gives us so much more than Halo does in its connected nature, public spaces, and raids, and I would hold up some strikes as comparable to some good Halo missions, but it's campaign missions do very little for me, and I think I'd be happier if Destiny stopped trying to do so many things at once and instead focused down a little bit.

Again, I love Destiny. I liked playing through the campaign, I think it was a fun experience. It just isn't as good as it obviously could be, and it makes up such a small percentage of my play time, that I have to wonder if its worth it. I honestly have mixed feelings on the whole thing, and I really have a hard time articulating those feelings.

I just know that Destiny feels to me like a game that's caught in a weird in between, like it's not quite sure what type of game it wants to be.

I’d still much rather play literally any Bungie Halo level than any Destiny story mission.

I cannot fathom wanting to play Floodgate or Quarantine Zone over King of the Mountain or Eye of A Gate Lord or 1AU. Not even touching on strikes or Raids in that regard.

I think it is fair that overall the Halo Campaigns have a better track record than Destiny story missions, but anyone suggesting that they are invariably more enjoyable than Destiny missions does me a boggle.

And that's probably unfair, that makes it sound like I think the rest of the game is dogshit, and I don't. But I do think that even the best moments of Destiny 2 (the tank sections, assaulting the city) are pretty lacking in comparison to even the most mediocre Halo levels.

I'll largely agree. For me, the tank sections of D2 pale in comparison to Halo because the feel/controls of the vehicle just don't have that good "Halo/Jaime feel". Piloting the tanks in D2 felt very "meh" to me. It's like they tried to make a tank fast like a warthog & lost all the tank/warthog tuning that had been done in the previous halos to make driving them feel so good. I feel the same about every other Destiny vehicle, excluding the Sparrow. The sparrow feels pretty good.

Like your post, this should be understood that I don't think it's crap, I'm just comparing to something that was most excellent and exceedingly triumphant.

Was that moment good to people? The music is cool, but the Hive come in the doorway almost literally single file and you kill them one by one for a minute and a half.

This is the track my brain has been running on for a while now. I don't think there is a single Destiny story mission that comes close to matching pretty much any Halo campaign mission in terms of encounter design, replayability, or storytelling.

Last Array. For like, the 20 seconds the antenna is opening.

Yeah, that’s right up there with the marines climbing the waterfall at the start of Halo 3 ;p

This is the track my brain has been running on for a while now. I don't think there is a single Destiny story mission that comes close to matching pretty much any Halo campaign mission in terms of encounter design, replayability, or storytelling.

Last Array. For like, the 20 seconds the antenna is opening.

I can't help but wonder what the game could be like if it was all as finely crafted as the raid.

And that's probably unfair, that makes it sound like I think the rest of the game is dogshit, and I don't. But I do think that even the best moments of Destiny 2 (the tank sections, assaulting the city) are pretty lacking in comparison to even the most mediocre Halo levels.

Think about flying the Pelican around New Alexandria. Jumping from the Warthog into a Hornet and back again on that pair of levels on the Ark. Any of the Warthog escapes. The Forward Unto Dawn landing on the Ark. Landing on Delta Halo. I could go on and on.

Like I said, it's ultimately something I just need to let go of--that's not the game they're making. Destiny does have cool things that a Halo style can't provide. I like the public events and that odds and ends that happen in the public spaces, and the seamless matchmaking with random players in that world, and the raids.

I like Destiny just fine, but I think I will always want to see a version of Destiny that is structured like a Halo game.

It's probably a tire discussion at this point, I know I've certainly said it this stuff enough times that folks are probably tired of reading it over and over.

I think it'd be much harder to implement in a compelling way in a shooter, but I love Diablo 3's difficulty escalation, and I think I would love it Destiny, if they could execute it correctly.

We're all playing the same activities over and over and over again anyway, why not have a series of escalating difficulties with random modifiers to keep it at least somewhat fresh? If it's a game about numbers getting higher, why not just let that continue to ridiculous degrees?

What you're describing here is difficulty level selection. In the case of D3, the difficulty selection is real because the character level vs. monster level dynamic is a lie. So yes, Destiny could benefit from a real difficulty level selection because, just as with D3, destiny's character level vs. monster level dynamic is also a lie.

What do you mean by "a lie?" Your power vs. their power. You can change their power by changing the setting and you can change your power by acquiring and equipping different gear. Is it not better to be able to select exactly how difficult you want your game to be (proportional to your skill and in-game power level)? As long as the rewards are proportional, it all works out swimmingly IMO.

By "a lie" I mean that your level is meaningless when compared to the enemy level in diablo 3. Enemies always scale to your level, and at more difficult settings, they simply scale with a more difficult starting baseline, and possibly also on a steeper curve. But knowing that you are level 50, for example, would not let you go into a level 10 zone and lay waste in Diablo 3, because there are no level 10 zones - all zones are whatever level your character is. So the distinction of having monster levels at all is meaningless in that game. The difficulty setting is the real thing that matters, and that functions independently from monster level. Yes, it works well, but you could completely remove monster level from the game and it would be, functionally, the same game.

Destiny is similar, in that monsters are never less than your level, and - by rote of uninspired design - almost never higher than your level either. Although unlike D3, Des2ny completely lacks a difficulty setting, so I'm left thinking that monster level is supposed to matter in Destiny, but discovering that it actually doesn't. D3 is not perfect in my esteem, but it is better than destiny by miles.

AFAIK, D3 has no monster levels. So there's no "lie."

It's all under the hood, but every monster in the game scales to match your level, so there are no low level areas or high level areas. Everything is the same. I understand there's perhaps more variance since the loot 2.0 patches, but in the default game, the design docs still talked about monster level as the driving system on which all loot, available elite monster mods, and experience were derived.

Yes, every monster scales to match your level and is the basis for how the loot drops. There is no lie, however, as there is no visually stated level to be lying about. It's not like the game says "level 5 zombie" and adjusts the strength of that zombie based on your selected difficulty. The under the hood level is the only level, and therefore there is no lie. You select Torment 5, you get Torment 5 difficulty enemies. That difficulty is relative to your current level, so you can expect it to always be exactly that difficult. If you manage to obtain better gear or create a more synergistic build, the game will not adjust for that, and that's by design. But there's no "lie."

Honestly? The former.

But at a certain point, I’d rather Destiny be a completely different game than it actually is, so that’s really just on me. I love the always connected game that Destiny is, I really do, but I still think they had to sacrifice too much to make it that way. I’d rather have a game in the Festiny universe that’s actually just Halo: Reach in terms of experience. I’d still much rather play literally any Bungie Halo level than any Destiny story mission.

Again, that’s on me, and something I probably just need to let go of at this point, but it’s honestly sort of difficult to do, but I still think the very nature of the type of game Destiny is prevents us from getting features that were standard in Halo, and I’m not convinced it’s worth the trade off.

This is the track my brain has been running on for a while now. I don't think there is a single Destiny story mission that comes close to matching pretty much any Halo campaign mission in terms of encounter design, replayability, or storytelling. For whatever reason, Destiny's strengths just seem to fall elsewhere. And that's totally great, except that such a large portion of every Destiny release is built around these mediocre campaign missions. They just aren't very good when compared to Bungie's past work, or other modern AAA shooters. Nor do they hold a candle to the best stuff in Destiny, none of which happens during the campaigns.

But at a certain point, I’d rather Destiny be a completely different game than it actually is, so that’s really just on me. I love the always connected game that Destiny is, I really do, but I still think they had to sacrifice too much to make it that way. I’d rather have a game in the Festiny universe that’s actually just Halo: Reach in terms of experience. I’d still much rather play literally any Bungie Halo level than any Destiny story mission.

Again, that’s on me, and something I probably just need to let go of at this point, but it’s honestly sort of difficult to do, but I still think the very nature of the type of game Destiny is prevents us from getting features that were standard in Halo, and I’m not convinced it’s worth the trade off.

For example: When you hit a level threshold where it is no longer important and power creep is a moot point except for people liking that number going up, you are then allowed to have your choice of activities to pursue in the game world where you aren't level gated and it is much earlier than Vanilla D1 seemed to want you to have that.

I would argue that it's so early as to be pointless to even having levels in the first place.

Levels have always been pointless, IMO. I still believe that Destiny would have been a thoroughly more enjoyable experience if the 1-20 levels AND light levels had never been part of the game.

My personal theory is that levels in video games is a holdover from tabletop games.

Characters level up in tabletop games in order to simulate getting better at their disciplines. In real life, if you shot a bunch of arrows you'd get more accurate, your back would get stronger, etc. Because the people sitting down playing aren't actually doing this - levels were a way to approximate growth and training for the characters.

Early on, games were pretty primitive, but they could do math well. The unbridled imagination and scope of a D&D session was and still is impossible to program - so they ported over the level systems which run on numbers since computers could do that well.

Of course in a video game, the act of your character shooting an arrow is much more connected to your own skill. As are a lot of the things your avatars can do. Thus, you can actually have growth and learning.

There is a place for them where the interaction is not skill dependent. For example, increasing lung capacity in Deus Ex is fine, since the player is never asked to hold his own breath. Also notice how such an upgrade expands the scope of secrets and combat interactions you can have, rather than just making the game easier.

But far too often it is misapplied. It's a sore point in HZD for example…

Destiny's baseline difficulty is low enough that most of the game is accessible to all players.

That’s sort of the issue. The baseline difficulty is so low that it’s very nearly dull, and you have to play for 15 or 20 hours until you can do anything of higher difficulty. The story of the game even straight up blocks you from playing things you’re under leveled for. Why can’t I play the entire game from the beginning on Nightfall (Legendary) equivalent difficulty? Or Heroic? Or Halo Easy (which, honestly is what the game feels like it’s set at, so maybe Halo Normal)?

Deus Ex didn't feature enemy levels in the way that D2 or D2 do. In a game where only the main character has levels, difficulty selectors are appropriate.

Level isn't the only thing that a difficulty selector can change… enemies can be smarter. They can be more aggressive. More accurate. There can be more of them. They can be of different types and in different positions. They can have different weapons. And they can all be the same level.

True, and that's a great thing that many games do very well. Destiny could do that too, if it wasn't so focused on "look your numbers got bigger" and was instead focused on compelling moment to moment gameplay.

Compelling moment to moment gameplay? That's like, just your opinion, man.

Although unlike D3, Des2ny completely lacks a difficulty setting...

No. Some areas of Destiny and Destiny 2 lack a difficulty setting, but many areas have them.

In Destiny 2:

• The Leviathan Raid most certainly has difficulty settings. Prestige mode is a good deal more difficult than regular mode.
  
• Strikes also have a difficulty setting through the Heroic playlist. (No, it's not a direct menu on the same screen, but the two playlists are really just an extra fancy way of changing the difficulty.)
  
• Strikes also have an even more difficult mode through the weekly Nightfall Strike. (Again, the UI is ultimately a fancy looking difficulty selector.)
  
• CoO also brought Heroic Adventures. (Once again, the UI and beacons are a round about / in-universe selector, but it sure as heck makes those missions more difficult!)

So yeah, while Destiny doesn't have a global difficulty pull down menu, a large portion of the game does offer a choice in difficulty.Really, the only thing that the Destiny system has a problem with is not having an Easy Mode for kids or people just starting on FPSes. In my opinion, though, Destiny's baseline difficulty is low enough that most of the game is accessible to all players.

That doesn't mean there isn't problems with Destiny's leveling systems, mainly that they probably shouldn't exist, but I don't see the lack of a difficulty selection as a significant issue.

I think it'd be much harder to implement in a compelling way in a shooter, but I love Diablo 3's difficulty escalation, and I think I would love it Destiny, if they could execute it correctly.

We're all playing the same activities over and over and over again anyway, why not have a series of escalating difficulties with random modifiers to keep it at least somewhat fresh? If it's a game about numbers getting higher, why not just let that continue to ridiculous degrees?

What you're describing here is difficulty level selection. In the case of D3, the difficulty selection is real because the character level vs. monster level dynamic is a lie. So yes, Destiny could benefit from a real difficulty level selection because, just as with D3, destiny's character level vs. monster level dynamic is also a lie.

What do you mean by "a lie?" Your power vs. their power. You can change their power by changing the setting and you can change your power by acquiring and equipping different gear. Is it not better to be able to select exactly how difficult you want your game to be (proportional to your skill and in-game power level)? As long as the rewards are proportional, it all works out swimmingly IMO.

By "a lie" I mean that your level is meaningless when compared to the enemy level in diablo 3. Enemies always scale to your level, and at more difficult settings, they simply scale with a more difficult starting baseline, and possibly also on a steeper curve. But knowing that you are level 50, for example, would not let you go into a level 10 zone and lay waste in Diablo 3, because there are no level 10 zones - all zones are whatever level your character is. So the distinction of having monster levels at all is meaningless in that game. The difficulty setting is the real thing that matters, and that functions independently from monster level. Yes, it works well, but you could completely remove monster level from the game and it would be, functionally, the same game.

Destiny is similar, in that monsters are never less than your level, and - by rote of uninspired design - almost never higher than your level either. Although unlike D3, Des2ny completely lacks a difficulty setting, so I'm left thinking that monster level is supposed to matter in Destiny, but discovering that it actually doesn't. D3 is not perfect in my esteem, but it is better than destiny by miles.

AFAIK, D3 has no monster levels. So there's no "lie."

It's all under the hood, but every monster in the game scales to match your level, so there are no low level areas or high level areas. Everything is the same. I understand there's perhaps more variance since the loot 2.0 patches, but in the default game, the design docs still talked about monster level as the driving system on which all loot, available elite monster mods, and experience were derived.