In so far as movies go i think Batman Begins, as a film, is probably what I would consider strongest from a technical standpoint. I like a lot of things for a lot of reasons.

Well played. It still looks like cloth to me, but I guess you can have your magical pantsless fae armor.

Thank you, I will definitely take the magical pantsless fae armor.

This needs a stronger defense. I'm flabbergasted.

So, preface: Batman Hush is the best Batman comic. Most people don’t understand (or remember the important parts of) The Killing Joke. LEGO Batman is the most important Batman movie of all of them.

Now that I hbe that out of the way, here is a more elaborate explanation as to why Batman Forever is the best Live Action Batman film. Starting with notable pitfalls of Burton and Nolan Batman outings. Batman spoilers ahead?

Obviously for being childrens stories about a man with childhood PTSD growing up to dress up as a bat and pummel criminals and the criminally insane you have some very strange balancing acts to account for. In the same way that many people do not understand Superman as a character (Tarantino understands the character about as well as modern DC does, though Snyder actually gets pretty close) who Batman is gets frequently confused. A big part of that is Robin, and in a larger respect, the whole Batfamily. In many ways Burton gets the Cowl right (while wrong in others) in the same way that Nolan gets Bruce Wayne right (Christian Bale is always a convincing rich [explitive]) but wrong in others. Neither of them have the Batfamily, for one. Keatonbat over-emphasizes the crazy man who beats up criminals, and Nolan basically forgets that Batman is powerful because he is observant. Batman is powerful because he is prepared. Because he has done his research. He wins in a fight against Clark because he has already done the leg work a hundred times over. There is a reason he has a counter to every member of the JL going rogue except Diana. Because really unless you go Golden Age at which case her weakness is light bondage.

Now, the best parts of Batman stories aren’t him or the Batfamily. It is the Rogues Gallery. Now, while I would love to see Arkham Asylum: A serious House on a Serious Earth translated to film, I don’t think we’ll ever get that. So we have to consider the incarnations we do get on screen. Jack Nicholson dressed as a Gamgster Clown does not The Joker make. And I adore Ledger’s performance, but that is not The Joker, more of an Elseworlds incarnation. Great, but tangential. Catwoman is handled better by Nolan, so he gets points there, and Scarecrow is pretty much great theough the whole of TDK trilogy. However, Ra’s and the League of Shadows is wasted in a mundane setting. The Lazarus Pit prison is interesting, but feels like a cop out. Bane in TDKR is so high above his treatment in B&R, but making him a puppet is about as good for the character as Iron Man 3’s Mandarin hook. I might even say worse.

Now, The common “Batman doesn’t kill” thing comes up. Even though he does so in many incarnations, usually out of necessity. In this regard I am only going to touch on Batman Forever. So, back to the Batfamily and Rogues Gallery. Other than some costume choices, both Tommy Lee Jones and Jim Carrey actually find the characters they are playing. A perpetually conflicted fallen knight who resorts to chance to settle his internal conflicts between his inclinations. This is a factor used in the climax the allow Batman to save Robin from his own “one bad day.” He planned ahead for it, and called it out to ensure it would happen because of his knowledge of Dent. And The Riddler? He needs to be better than Batman, but moreover he needs Batman to know he is better. That is his central character thread which is explored in various ways through various media. But Jim Carrey captures. Bottles it and sells it.

This is not as well organized as I probably would like it to be. But here is the tl;dr - Batman Forever has the most “Batman” to it, while the other incarnations feel like alternate universes at best and often fail to capture essential aspects of the characters for the sake of presenting something different instead of as an exploration thereof. /babbling

This is well thought out and I can see why you value this entry. I think that I approach comic movies from a different angle. To me, they are like american folk-myths, more akin with the oral myths of ancient Greece. As such, each orator will have their own take or riff on the story and legend. Being true to the character of a source (and lets be honest, Batman has had many iterations even within the printed comic world) is not as big of a consideration for me as telling an interesting story with internal consistency using those character archetypes. Given that bias, it may be true that Batman Forever nails the comic-Batman element, but I think it delivers a story that is less interesting to me. Certainly not bad like B&R but not really good either. Burton's take on the Joker makes Batman who makes Joker story was more interesting to me. The neo-gothic textures and the aesthetics also worked for me far more than Batman Forever. Nolan's attempts to ground Batman in a more realistic world also felt like an interesting take as the medium shifted from comic to movie. It had significant problems, but I just find Batman Forever too campy in comparison. All that being said, I can appreciate your appreciation.

Link wasn't wearing armor. I don't critique TC's opening outfit because it isn't supposed to be armor. Once he dons the mini-dress of protection though...

Circa A Link to the Past the Blue and Red tunics function explicitly as armor and do not grant Link pants.

Well played. It still looks like cloth to me, but I guess you can have your magical pantsless fae armor.

This needs a stronger defense. I'm flabbergasted.

So, preface: Batman Hush is the best Batman comic. Most people don’t understand (or remember the important parts of) The Killing Joke. LEGO Batman is the most important Batman movie of all of them.

Now that I hbe that out of the way, here is a more elaborate explanation as to why Batman Forever is the best Live Action Batman film. Starting with notable pitfalls of Burton and Nolan Batman outings. Batman spoilers ahead?

Obviously for being childrens stories about a man with childhood PTSD growing up to dress up as a bat and pummel criminals and the criminally insane you have some very strange balancing acts to account for. In the same way that many people do not understand Superman as a character (Tarantino understands the character about as well as modern DC does, though Snyder actually gets pretty close) who Batman is gets frequently confused. A big part of that is Robin, and in a larger respect, the whole Batfamily. In many ways Burton gets the Cowl right (while wrong in others) in the same way that Nolan gets Bruce Wayne right (Christian Bale is always a convincing rich [explitive]) but wrong in others. Neither of them have the Batfamily, for one. Keatonbat over-emphasizes the crazy man who beats up criminals, and Nolan basically forgets that Batman is powerful because he is observant. Batman is powerful because he is prepared. Because he has done his research. He wins in a fight against Clark because he has already done the leg work a hundred times over. There is a reason he has a counter to every member of the JL going rogue except Diana. Because really unless you go Golden Age at which case her weakness is light bondage.

Now, the best parts of Batman stories aren’t him or the Batfamily. It is the Rogues Gallery. Now, while I would love to see Arkham Asylum: A serious House on a Serious Earth translated to film, I don’t think we’ll ever get that. So we have to consider the incarnations we do get on screen. Jack Nicholson dressed as a Gamgster Clown does not The Joker make. And I adore Ledger’s performance, but that is not The Joker, more of an Elseworlds incarnation. Great, but tangential. Catwoman is handled better by Nolan, so he gets points there, and Scarecrow is pretty much great theough the whole of TDK trilogy. However, Ra’s and the League of Shadows is wasted in a mundane setting. The Lazarus Pit prison is interesting, but feels like a cop out. Bane in TDKR is so high above his treatment in B&R, but making him a puppet is about as good for the character as Iron Man 3’s Mandarin hook. I might even say worse.

Now, The common “Batman doesn’t kill” thing comes up. Even though he does so in many incarnations, usually out of necessity. In this regard I am only going to touch on Batman Forever. So, back to the Batfamily and Rogues Gallery. Other than some costume choices, both Tommy Lee Jones and Jim Carrey actually find the characters they are playing. A perpetually conflicted fallen knight who resorts to chance to settle his internal conflicts between his inclinations. This is a factor used in the climax the allow Batman to save Robin from his own “one bad day.” He planned ahead for it, and called it out to ensure it would happen because of his knowledge of Dent. And The Riddler? He needs to be better than Batman, but moreover he needs Batman to know he is better. That is his central character thread which is explored in various ways through various media. But Jim Carrey captures. Bottles it and sells it.

This is not as well organized as I probably would like it to be. But here is the tl;dr - Batman Forever has the most “Batman” to it, while the other incarnations feel like alternate universes at best and often fail to capture essential aspects of the characters for the sake of presenting something different instead of as an exploration thereof. /babbling

Agreed, although LotR was a great treatment of the genre when it first hit the screens- regardless of how you feel of his editorial decisions.

I greatly appreciate what PJ did for LotR. I acknowledge the books influence, but think they are overrated tremendously compared to their quality as literature. The Hobbit is the only thing Tolkien wrote that has value as prose.

I'm now interested in the Dark Crystal. I admit that my exposure to 80's fantasy may be limited. I've only seen Ladyhawke, Willow, The Neverending Story, Legend, and a bunch of cable tv reruns in the 90's I can't remember. I can pass on all of the above. Princess Bride was super light and I'm not sure it fits the genre but I did enjoy it.

The Dark Crystal is unique in many ways, and there is a Netflix prequel in the works. It is definitely worth seeing, if for no other reason than seeing one of the greatest works of Jim Henson and Frank Oz. Princess Bride is light but includes monsters (shreiking eels, ROUS) magic/technology (Miracle Max, The Machine in the Pit of Despair) and Fantasy locations (The Cliffs of Insanity, Fire Swamp) which is why i call it Light Fantasy. All of the fantasy stuff it simple excuses to move the story forward.

Fair, although I'm not sure Tom Cruise's heart was in Legend judging by the acting.

I would blame that more on a combination of youth and that he was playing a forest hermit. I find the performance fitting, and for what it is I don’t think it is any worse than any of his performances contemporary to it. Admittedly I have seen those less recently.

Link wasn't wearing armor. I don't critique TC's opening outfit because it isn't supposed to be armor. Once he dons the mini-dress of protection though...

Circa A Link to the Past the Blue and Red tunics function explicitly as armor and do not grant Link pants.

It’s true. Batman Forever is legit the best Batman movie. Seriously.

Wait wut? I mean, I liked the album like everyone else, and this movie wasn't that bad but... I'll take Burton or Nolan's visions over that any day.

The reason batman forever is great is because of Jim Carey and Tommy Lee Jones not because of batman or robin.

Ummm, Yes?

It’s true. Batman Forever is legit the best Batman movie. Seriously.

Wait wut? I mean, I liked the album like everyone else, and this movie wasn't that bad but... I'll take Burton or Nolan's visions over that any day.

The reason batman forever is great is because of Jim Carey and Tommy Lee Jones not because of batman or robin.

It’s true. Batman Forever is legit the best Batman movie. Seriously.

Wait wut? I mean, I liked the album like everyone else, and this movie wasn't that bad but... I'll take Burton or Nolan's visions over that any day.

The reason batman forever is great is because of Jim Carey and Tommy Lee Jones not because of batman or robin.

Nicole Kidman deserves as much credit as the villains too.

True. Which means we can't forget Drew Barrymore!

It’s true. Batman Forever is legit the best Batman movie. Seriously.

Wait wut? I mean, I liked the album like everyone else, and this movie wasn't that bad but... I'll take Burton or Nolan's visions over that any day.

The reason batman forever is great is because of Jim Carey and Tommy Lee Jones not because of batman or robin.

Nicole Kidman deserves as much credit as the villains too.

But Schumacher also did Batman Forever, which in many regards is probably the best live action Batman film. I'll accept and even argue that various arguments that different live action Batman films have done certain things better. But as a total package in regard to the character of Batman, Bruce Wayne, and the comics? Anyway, I digress.

This needs a stronger defense. I'm flabbergasted.

But, you're right, the lines fit for the character who is part of this bat-s*** crazy world. I just don't find that world well-written or compelling.

It is a fair consideration to make. In my personal tastes I consider understandably natural writing to be more compelling. Dream-logic world or not. Honestly, 80's fantasy is super polarizing, but I would have to say it is too far to suggest they didn't know what they were doing with it.

Fair. I was being a bit inflammatory in my posturing. :-)

However, I would say that it was far from homogenized, as a lot of more modern fantasy has become, especially as you look at what has followed PJ's LotR trilogy. Not necessarily to the benefit of those which followed. I think that 80's Fantasy tended to hold much more striking identities for different stories.

Agreed, although LotR was a great treatment of the genre when it first hit the screens- regardless of how you feel of his editorial decisions.

Legend is a Fairytale Epic (in regard to the literary poetic) and as such is full of fairy weirdness. In contrast, Labyrinth which came out a year later follows a lot of similar implications of fae, but with a different setting. A lot of folks I knew grew up hating the former and loving the latter. Some of that likely has to do with the interconnect with a modern world in Labyrinth. I did grow up with Legend. Perhaps a lot of it is that. I also grew up with old faerie tales and stories about things in the forests.

Weirder 80's Fantasy that was deeply seated within my upbringing was The Dark Crystal. Often also compared to Labyrinth and often also hated by most of my friends who grew up with that movie. TDC is a truly alien world, though. But then you have more traditional Western Fantasy with things such as Ladyhawke or Willow. The Light Fantasy of The Princess Bride or the Low Fantasy of Conan: The Barbarian or the almost science-fantasy of Krull. Feel free to make fun of Krull, though.

I'm now interested in the Dark Crystal. I admit that my exposure to 80's fantasy may be limited. I've only seen Ladyhawke, Willow, The Neverending Story, Legend, and a bunch of cable tv reruns in the 90's I can't remember. I can pass on all of the above. Princess Bride was super light and I'm not sure it fits the genre but I did enjoy it.

I think comparing anything that is not explicitly a marketing gimmick to sell toys to Batman & Robin is unjustified. From what I'm aware of I'm not sure anyone had their heart in it. I would rather you compare Legend to something from the Troma Entertainment because at least you'd be making a comparison to something someone cared about making.

Fair, although I'm not sure Tom Cruise's heart was in Legend judging by the acting.

Okay, perhaps that's unfair. Ridley clearly likes the genre and wanted to tell some sort of morality tale in it. But, I'm not sure there's anything worth exploring in there.

And that is the sort of reasoning I'd say that maybe the sort of Fairytale focus Legend has is particular cup. But poor me a pint of the interpersonal dramas, traditions, and conflicts of other worldly creatures any day.

Plus, TOM CRUISE'S ARMOR HAS NO PANTS.

Magic armor requires no pants. Link didn't used to have pants.

Link wasn't wearing armor. I don't critique TC's opening outfit because it isn't supposed to be armor. Once he dons the mini-dress of protection though...

It’s true. Batman Forever is legit the best Batman movie. Seriously.

Wait wut? I mean, I liked the album like everyone else, and this movie wasn't that bad but... I'll take Burton or Nolan's visions over that any day.

The reason batman forever is great is because of Jim Carey and Tommy Lee Jones not because of batman or robin.

It’s true. Batman Forever is legit the best Batman movie. Seriously.

Wait wut? I mean, I liked the album like everyone else, and this movie wasn't that bad but... I'll take Burton or Nolan's visions over that any day.

Tell me doctor, do you like the circus?

But, you're right, the lines fit for the character who is part of this bat-s*** crazy world. I just don't find that world well-written or compelling.

It is a fair consideration to make. In my personal tastes I consider understandably natural writing to be more compelling. Dream-logic world or not. Honestly, 80's fantasy is super polarizing, but I would have to say it is too far to suggest they didn't know what they were doing with it.

However, I would say that it was far from homogenized, as a lot of more modern fantasy has become, especially as you look at what has followed PJ's LotR trilogy. Not necessarily to the benefit of those which followed. I think that 80's Fantasy tended to hold much more striking identities for different stories.

Legend is a Fairytale Epic (in regard to the literary poetic) and as such is full of fairy weirdness. In contrast, Labyrinth which came out a year later follows a lot of similar implications of fae, but with a different setting. A lot of folks I knew grew up hating the former and loving the latter. Some of that likely has to do with the interconnect with a modern world in Labyrinth. I did grow up with Legend. Perhaps a lot of it is that. I also grew up with old faerie tales and stories about things in the forests.

Weirder 80's Fantasy that was deeply seated within my upbringing was The Dark Crystal. Often also compared to Labyrinth and often also hated by most of my friends who grew up with that movie. TDC is a truly alien world, though. But then you have more traditional Western Fantasy with things such as Ladyhawke or Willow. The Light Fantasy of The Princess Bride or the Low Fantasy of Conan: The Barbarian or the almost science-fantasy of Krull. Feel free to make fun of Krull, though.

I think comparing anything that is not explicitly a marketing gimmick to sell toys to Batman & Robin is unjustified. From what I'm aware of I'm not sure anyone had their heart in it. I would rather you compare Legend to something from the Troma Entertainment because at least you'd be making a comparison to something someone cared about making.

Okay, perhaps that's unfair. Ridley clearly likes the genre and wanted to tell some sort of morality tale in it. But, I'm not sure there's anything worth exploring in there.

And that is the sort of reasoning I'd say that maybe the sort of Fairytale focus Legend has is particular cup. But poor me a pint of the interpersonal dramas, traditions, and conflicts of other worldly creatures any day.

Plus, TOM CRUISE'S ARMOR HAS NO PANTS.

Magic armor requires no pants. Link didn't used to have pants.

Have you tried the nightfalls? I feel like Bungie did a better job this time around in that the Nightfall is fun and not quite so punishing. With a good fireteam it shouldn't be too bad and having to beat the clock prevents it from becoming a hide and shoot game. (Although you certainly can't be as aggressive as you might normally be if you're me.)

I think I did the first three weeks’.

And if you don’t think a powerful fae creature whose existence is literally based on darkness would be melodramatic. Scratch that, if you don’t think a fae creature would be melodramatic, I guess the fairytale oriented fantasy might just not be your flavor.

We're veering dangerously close to no-true-Scotsman territory here. I've enjoyed a fairytale or two and have opinions and stuff... :-)

But, you're right, the lines fit for the character who is part of this bat-s*** crazy world. I just don't find that world well-written or compelling. Here's where I may get myself in trouble. I don't think the 80's knew what to do with the fantasy genre in general. It was like Joel Schumacher directing Batman and Robin. He wasn't a fan, but he was pretty sure he knew what fans liked about the genre so he went over-the-top and created a massive dumpster fire. He put stuff in that stereotypes of the fans would like, but not real humans. That's what I think happened with Legend.

Okay, perhaps that's unfair. Ridley clearly likes the genre and wanted to tell some sort of morality tale in it. But, I'm not sure there's anything worth exploring in there. Plus, TOM CRUISE'S ARMOR HAS NO PANTS.

Yeah, they’re totally different. I just tend to consider the 1985 film as one of the greatest works of fantasy cinema.

I get that the makeup and some scenes are beautiful, but...

“sunshine is my destroyer”

and

“There is only one lure for such disgusting goodness, one bait that never fails.”
“What be this bait? Please, you teach me.”
“Inn-o-cence. Inn-o-cence.”

Two things:

1. The recommended light level for them is appropriate for doing them as you go through the campaign.

2. They become essentially useless if you do them afterwards, in terms of progression. Even if if they still give you light level appropriate gear, they drop blues when the player has moved on to collecting purples. So even if you use them for infusion, it’s still doesn’t feel rewarding if your post-campaign. It makes it feel to me like Bungie expected folks to have done many of them by that point.

OK, I understand where you're coming from, then.

I was thinking about Adventures as worth playing through for the additional story and lore, which is a different kind of reward.

While she doesn't love the movie, she does derive enjoyment from TC's ridiculous armor. This armor:

HAS NO PANTS!

In some ways it might be viewed as progressive in that it is about as practical as traditional female video game armor.

It has been a theme with him for quite some time...