I can definitely see that the overall feeling for a lot of folks who perform well solo not liking D2 PvP as much. But part of it is how it forces teamwork instead of encouraging it theough mechanics. Search and Des-countdown and survival both encourage team work theough mechanics, for example. And I like that. But Clash or Control aren’t focused enough for the gametype to encourage it, instead the limited options lead to team shooting.

I would make a distinction here in what I am talking about, though. Because flanking is team play. And in many cases is the only way to break up the plinking down hallways that is a common strategy due to the prevalence of MIDA and other Scouts effectiveness in coordinated fire. In D1, however, in part because of 6v6, I could break off, and having grenades readily available, actually manage engagements on my own. There are a lot of factors. But yeah. The change is definitely harder on folks who like solo play.

They did change a lot of things that make it hard to go solo. I never thought about the grenades and abilities thing though. I think the big difference when it comes to abilities is that we are usually able to take on 1v2 or 1v3 if we have all of our abilities at our disposal, but when you might only have the gun in your hands, it is MUCH hard to do a 1v2, especially if either of them have their abilities. I think this takes more skill because you can't just willy nilly throw grenades every time you revive.

In D1, if you caught a team with their pants down you could drop 1 of them before they knew what was happening, and maybe get 2 or 3 if you were lucky. I had some great chaperone plays where I solo'd against a bunch of guys who weren't expecting my positioning or movement and were thus caught looking where they expected me to be instead of where I actually was. In D2 you just can't do that. It takes so long to kill someone that even when you catch them with their back to you, there's enough time for them to finish what they were doing, write a book, proofread it, tell their friends about it, and then turn and shoot you, and if they have a teammate nearby, they will still win. I don't like a pvp game where a solo player who out maneuvers a pair of two has their best tactical option limited to "run away." And this is far worse when you have only your guns and no grenades to throw or super to pop.

I also like that the defensive class abilities are able to be used often, because if you are being double teamed you might have a chance to get out easier. It allows for a more tactical team oriented game other than lone ranger. That is more appealing to me than the insta-killing roaming Gods that some D1 players were.

On my hunter, the dodge is next to useless as an actual dodge, so I use it primarily to reload quickly. Which is dumb. Utility yes, defensive utility not really. On my warlock I'm an OP god of death with a skill tree designed to rain unholy pain upon my enemies, and every time I pop my circle of awesome I feel like I'm using a little bonus super.

My point is that things are grossly imbalanced. Maybe I should just play warlock. They do have blink.

I want to believe this. I really do. But I am an average player in PvP and just recently I was playing trials with some DBO guys and I flanked a firefight between my team and the enemy and I dropped two guys with just my weapon. The first guy was slightly hurt but not by much and I killed him and started on the second guy before they realized I was behind them. The second one had a chance to fire back, but I already had the advantage and finish him. This was all with my gun, no pulse grenade needed. And there were many times that night where flanking got us slaughtered. There was also a couple times where one of our team mates used dodge very effectively to get away when he was the last guy remaining. I've seen it done. Maybe I'm not play against as skilled guys as you, because I know you are good at PvP, but it's still possible to do the things that you are talking about at my level at least.

It's just as possible that you're significantly better at PvP than I am. It's good to hear that this is still possible. Out of curiosity, what class do you play? I primarily play hunter.

I can definitely see that the overall feeling for a lot of folks who perform well solo not liking D2 PvP as much. But part of it is how it forces teamwork instead of encouraging it theough mechanics. Search and Des-countdown and survival both encourage team work theough mechanics, for example. And I like that. But Clash or Control aren’t focused enough for the gametype to encourage it, instead the limited options lead to team shooting.

I would make a distinction here in what I am talking about, though. Because flanking is team play. And in many cases is the only way to break up the plinking down hallways that is a common strategy due to the prevalence of MIDA and other Scouts effectiveness in coordinated fire. In D1, however, in part because of 6v6, I could break off, and having grenades readily available, actually manage engagements on my own. There are a lot of factors. But yeah. The change is definitely harder on folks who like solo play.

They did change a lot of things that make it hard to go solo. I never thought about the grenades and abilities thing though. I think the big difference when it comes to abilities is that we are usually able to take on 1v2 or 1v3 if we have all of our abilities at our disposal, but when you might only have the gun in your hands, it is MUCH hard to do a 1v2, especially if either of them have their abilities. I think this takes more skill because you can't just willy nilly throw grenades every time you revive.

In D1, if you caught a team with their pants down you could drop 1 of them before they knew what was happening, and maybe get 2 or 3 if you were lucky. I had some great chaperone plays where I solo'd against a bunch of guys who weren't expecting my positioning or movement and were thus caught looking where they expected me to be instead of where I actually was. In D2 you just can't do that. It takes so long to kill someone that even when you catch them with their back to you, there's enough time for them to finish what they were doing, write a book, proofread it, tell their friends about it, and then turn and shoot you, and if they have a teammate nearby, they will still win. I don't like a pvp game where a solo player who out maneuvers a pair of two has their best tactical option limited to "run away." And this is far worse when you have only your guns and no grenades to throw or super to pop.

I also like that the defensive class abilities are able to be used often, because if you are being double teamed you might have a chance to get out easier. It allows for a more tactical team oriented game other than lone ranger. That is more appealing to me than the insta-killing roaming Gods that some D1 players were.

On my hunter, the dodge is next to useless as an actual dodge, so I use it primarily to reload quickly. Which is dumb. Utility yes, defensive utility not really. On my warlock I'm an OP god of death with a skill tree designed to rain unholy pain upon my enemies, and every time I pop my circle of awesome I feel like I'm using a little bonus super.

My point is that things are grossly imbalanced. Maybe I should just play warlock. They do have blink.

I want to believe this. I really do. But I am an average player in PvP and just recently I was playing trials with some DBO guys and I flanked a firefight between my team and the enemy and I dropped two guys with just my weapon. The first guy was slightly hurt but not by much and I killed him and started on the second guy before they realized I was behind them. The second one had a chance to fire back, but I already had the advantage and finish him. This was all with my gun, no pulse grenade needed. And there were many times that night where flanking got us slaughtered. There was also a couple times where one of our team mates used dodge very effectively to get away when he was the last guy remaining. I've seen it done. Maybe I'm not play against as skilled guys as you, because I know you are good at PvP, but it's still possible to do the things that you are talking about at my level at least.

Thanks for that! But there's also this weird thing that Claude and I ran into the other night. Hadn't seen or heard anything like it yet, but it's a very simple exploit to pull off...

I never found the way up, myself, and I forgot to follow up with you for this video. Dang, that seems pretty straightforward - I wonder why this is the first time either one of us has run across it?

So I wasn't able to get it to happen exactly as Claude did in his video, but I was able to produce the same result by opening my map and using fast travel while talking to a vendor. From this, I was able to make a client code change that fixes the issue.

Unfortunately it's a little too late to make it into the release coming on Dec 12th, but I'm hopeful it'll make the next boat.

Thanks to the both of you, Claude and Kermit! :)

Awesome! I now find bugs in my professional and personal life. Thanks!

BTW, the issue with the hunter floating--I always assumed that the warlock was the only class that was supposed to float because that's how it is before log on. I've noticed that the warlock will alternatively stand and float just like the hunter if you view the character screen while traveling.

Kerm

P.S. Thanks for the explanation regarding the screen shift. I figured it was something like that.

Unfortunately it's a little too late to make it into the release coming on Dec 12th, but I'm hopeful it'll make the next boat.

Thanks to the both of you, Claude and Kermit! :)

I don't know what BXR is, I'm sorry.

It was a button combination in Halo 2 that let you cancel the melee animation and fire the Battle Rifle basically instantaneously after punching someone. Similar to another glitch that allowed you to fire the BR twice in a row with no delay, called the double shot. Neither were incredibly hard to do, but did require some skill to pull off consistently, and we had almost the same argument I'm going to present to you below nearly endlessly on HBO.

I think you're saying it's reasonable to say it was beneficial to the game but not reasonable to complain that they took it out, which seems contradictory to me.

No, I'm saying it's unreasonable to complain about Bungie removing obvious glitches that allowed gameplay they didn't intend. Whether it was beneficial are harmful to the game is up for debate, and I'll acknowledge being able to understand those who say it's beneficial. It's not realistic, and not really fair to complain that Bungie removed things they obviously never intended to be there in the first place.

Well put and well articulated. The PvP is the major drag of D2, just as it was the major draw keeping me playing D1. The absence of advanced player control in particular is damning (titan skating, blink for hunters, warlock skating).

Wait, what? The lack of some broken shit is detrimental to the experience? That's almost like calling the super bounce from Halo 2 an advanced movement option. I kept wondering what you were talking about when you said that, but now that you've explained I'm honestly flabbergasted.

What you're calling broken shit was actually key to top-tier gameplay and added a tremendous amount of depth to the pvp game. Knowing how to move in order to safely and quickly traverse sightlines was key in that game. Using this advanced movement to trick enemies via the radar, keep your head out of doorways, and surprise your enemies with unexpected speed and direction was really really fun. And since these things were HARD TO DO, they meant that top tier players had to practice and develop a level of skill that was really really fun to watch.

Did you hold it against Halo 3 when they didn't put BXR back in the game?

I don't know what BXR is, I'm sorry.

That's a legitimate question--some people absolutely did hold it against Halo 3 for not having BXR. I just don't think it's reasonable to expect Bungie to put obviously unintended, broken mechanics back into Destiny 2. I'll listen to the argument that it was beneficial to the game due to it's required skill to consistently execute or any such similar things, but I still think it's naive to expect them to leave it in and then complain about it when it's not there.

I think you're saying it's reasonable to say it was beneficial to the game but not reasonable to complain that they took it out, which seems contradictory to me. The movement of D1 was fluid, quick, and required both skill and planning, whereas the movement of D2 is slow, methodical, and requires only that you do it alongside another teammate, rather than in a closely coordinated maneuver.

Put another way: D1 rewarded aggression and tactics, while D2 rewards preparation and numbers. Both have their merits, but the game modes in D2 are the same as D1, and those are, universally, game modes which emphasize aggressive play. It means you're always moving at odds with ideal gameplay, and that's not fun.

Okay, so I've never noticed this bug before... but I tried it this evening, and was able to reproduce this bug. Here's a video:

http://files2.bungie.org/dv/Destiny2_fasttravelbug/1280/720/

(Sorry, would have used YouTube or something, but this was easier than making an account. ;) )

It's not just the postmaster; I couldn't talk to ANYONE.

Fixed by going to orbit and returning.

(If it's not crystal clear from the dialogue, I'm a PS4 noob. Korny was walking me through the recording/sharing process.)

Claude, you're a wonderful man! I'll ask around about this when I'm back in the office.

• The initial loading animation shifts midway through the process. This is a tiny thing, but I notice it every time I log on, and it irritates.

Yeah this irritates the crap out of me too. It's like nails on a chalkboard every time I see it. I believe that happens because that's the first time the game is able to read your screen bounds from your account profile, so it switches to using those from some universal defaults. I want to do something about it, but unfortunately it's going to be pretty low down the priority list :(

• Fast travel in the tower shouldn't be a thing (unless it works). Right now activating fast travel makes it so you can't view what's at the postmaster.

This is actually the first I've heard of this bug. We gave it a quick go and couldn't make it happen. Does it happen 100% of the time for you? What happens when you attempt to interact with the postmaster? If you can get a screenshot or video, you'll make me a happy chappy.

Okay, so I've never noticed this bug before... but I tried it this evening, and was able to reproduce this bug. Here's a video:

http://files2.bungie.org/dv/Destiny2_fasttravelbug/1280/720/

(Sorry, would have used YouTube or something, but this was easier than making an account. ;) )

It's not just the postmaster; I couldn't talk to ANYONE.

Fixed by going to orbit and returning.

(If it's not crystal clear from the dialogue, I'm a PS4 noob. Korny was walking me through the recording/sharing process.)

Well put and well articulated. The PvP is the major drag of D2, just as it was the major draw keeping me playing D1. The absence of advanced player control in particular is damning (titan skating, blink for hunters, warlock skating).

Wait, what? The lack of some broken shit is detrimental to the experience? That's almost like calling the super bounce from Halo 2 an advanced movement option. I kept wondering what you were talking about when you said that, but now that you've explained I'm honestly flabbergasted.

Did you hold it against Halo 3 when they didn't put BXR back in the game? That's a legitimate question--some people absolutely did hold it against Halo 3 for not having BXR. I just don't think it's reasonable to expect Bungie to put obviously unintended, broken mechanics back into Destiny 2. I'll listen to the argument that it was beneficial to the game due to it's required skill to consistently execute or any such similar things, but I still think it's naive to expect them to leave it in and then complain about it when it's not there.

• The initial loading animation shifts midway through the process. This is a tiny thing, but I notice it every time I log on, and it irritates.

Yeah this irritates the crap out of me too. It's like nails on a chalkboard every time I see it. I believe that happens because that's the first time the game is able to read your screen bounds from your account profile, so it switches to using those from some universal defaults. I want to do something about it, but unfortunately it's going to be pretty low down the priority list :(

• Fast travel in the tower shouldn't be a thing (unless it works). Right now activating fast travel makes it so you can't view what's at the postmaster.

This is actually the first I've heard of this bug. We gave it a quick go and couldn't make it happen. Does it happen 100% of the time for you? What happens when you attempt to interact with the postmaster? If you can get a screenshot or video, you'll make me a happy chappy.

I can definitely see that the overall feeling for a lot of folks who perform well solo not liking D2 PvP as much. But part of it is how it forces teamwork instead of encouraging it theough mechanics. Search and Des-countdown and survival both encourage team work theough mechanics, for example. And I like that. But Clash or Control aren’t focused enough for the gametype to encourage it, instead the limited options lead to team shooting.

I would make a distinction here in what I am talking about, though. Because flanking is team play. And in many cases is the only way to break up the plinking down hallways that is a common strategy due to the prevalence of MIDA and other Scouts effectiveness in coordinated fire. In D1, however, in part because of 6v6, I could break off, and having grenades readily available, actually manage engagements on my own. There are a lot of factors. But yeah. The change is definitely harder on folks who like solo play.

They did change a lot of things that make it hard to go solo. I never thought about the grenades and abilities thing though. I think the big difference when it comes to abilities is that we are usually able to take on 1v2 or 1v3 if we have all of our abilities at our disposal, but when you might only have the gun in your hands, it is MUCH hard to do a 1v2, especially if either of them have their abilities. I think this takes more skill because you can't just willy nilly throw grenades every time you revive.

In D1, if you caught a team with their pants down you could drop 1 of them before they knew what was happening, and maybe get 2 or 3 if you were lucky. I had some great chaperone plays where I solo'd against a bunch of guys who weren't expecting my positioning or movement and were thus caught looking where they expected me to be instead of where I actually was. In D2 you just can't do that. It takes so long to kill someone that even when you catch them with their back to you, there's enough time for them to finish what they were doing, write a book, proofread it, tell their friends about it, and then turn and shoot you, and if they have a teammate nearby, they will still win. I don't like a pvp game where a solo player who out maneuvers a pair of two has their best tactical option limited to "run away." And this is far worse when you have only your guns and no grenades to throw or super to pop.

I also like that the defensive class abilities are able to be used often, because if you are being double teamed you might have a chance to get out easier. It allows for a more tactical team oriented game other than lone ranger. That is more appealing to me than the insta-killing roaming Gods that some D1 players were.

On my hunter, the dodge is next to useless as an actual dodge, so I use it primarily to reload quickly. Which is dumb. Utility yes, defensive utility not really. On my warlock I'm an OP god of death with a skill tree designed to rain unholy pain upon my enemies, and every time I pop my circle of awesome I feel like I'm using a little bonus super.

My point is that things are grossly imbalanced. Maybe I should just play warlock. They do have blink.

I do totally agree on the class abilities lending to some more team oriented play. Or defensive actions. I run towering barricade to block hallways or peak corners, for example. Or to save a teammate from enemies. Healing Rift serves similar for me. I have seen great use of these abilities and I have seen terrible uses. Albeit, I think (other than dodge) they are at about the right rate of charging, unlike the other abilities.

Personal considerations here, mostly.

I can definitely see that the overall feeling for a lot of folks who perform well solo not liking D2 PvP as much. But part of it is how it forces teamwork instead of encouraging it theough mechanics. Search and Des-countdown and survival both encourage team work theough mechanics, for example. And I like that. But Clash or Control aren’t focused enough for the gametype to encourage it, instead the limited options lead to team shooting.

I would make a distinction here in what I am talking about, though. Because flanking is team play. And in many cases is the only way to break up the plinking down hallways that is a common strategy due to the prevalence of MIDA and other Scouts effectiveness in coordinated fire. In D1, however, in part because of 6v6, I could break off, and having grenades readily available, actually manage engagements on my own. There are a lot of factors. But yeah. The change is definitely harder on folks who like solo play.

They did change a lot of things that make it hard to go solo. I never thought about the grenades and abilities thing though. I think the big difference when it comes to abilities is that we are usually able to take on 1v2 or 1v3 if we have all of our abilities at our disposal, but when you might only have the gun in your hands, it is MUCH hard to do a 1v2, especially if either of them have their abilities. I think this takes more skill because you can't just willy nilly throw grenades every time you revive.

I also like that the defensive class abilities are able to be used often, because if you are being double teamed you might have a chance to get out easier. It allows for a more tactical team oriented game other than lone ranger. That is more appealing to me than the insta-killing roaming Gods that some D1 players were.

I would make a distinction here in what I am talking about, though. Because flanking is team play. And in many cases is the only way to break up the plinking down hallways that is a common strategy due to the prevalence of MIDA and other Scouts effectiveness in coordinated fire. In D1, however, in part because of 6v6, I could break off, and having grenades readily available, actually manage engagements on my own. There are a lot of factors. But yeah. The change is definitely harder on folks who like solo play.