I would much rather be theorizing about what lies below the waters of Titan than complaining that the tower crashes about every fifth time I load into it

The tower has 'crashed' (not exactly sure what you mean by that, but in my case, it means 'nothing is there but me') exactly once since Destiny 2 launched. I know it happens, i'm just amazed it happens so much for you!

I'm on PS4 and it has only happened to me one time.

-- Steve loves almost all of Destiny 2, but this issue is making him kinda resent the opening title sequence.

I would much rather be theorizing about what lies below the waters of Titan than complaining that the tower crashes about every fifth time I load into it

The tower has 'crashed' (not exactly sure what you mean by that, but in my case, it means 'nothing is there but me') exactly once since Destiny 2 launched. I know it happens, i'm just amazed it happens so much for you!

If I fly in solo, the odds that I get stuck on a black screen listening to tower chatter are about 1 in 20. If I fly in with a team of 6, it's about 1 in 1.3. I have one particular friend who almost always gets D/C'd from parties whenever he flies in, and I think something between his ISP, Bungie, and the rest of the world essentially breaks the game. In games where you get the black screen, the tower usually loads after 10-15 minutes if you wait, or you can log out and back in and it usually loads fine after that.

Then there's the crash to playstation blue screen problem, which seems related to flying into social spaces while in your player menus. Totally different issue. I've only had that once. This is a real crash and the D2 app needs to be relaunched.

I would much rather be theorizing about what lies below the waters of Titan than complaining that the tower crashes about every fifth time I load into it

The tower has 'crashed' (not exactly sure what you mean by that, but in my case, it means 'nothing is there but me') exactly once since Destiny 2 launched. I know it happens, i'm just amazed it happens so much for you!

Not taking sides here, but an extra-game app with additional functionality was envisioned long before D1 came out. I'll also confess that sometimes my reaction to your posts is similar to Raga's. I get the feeling you're accusing Bungie of acting in bad faith regarding aspects you don't like, yet I know you know enough about game development to know that they are complexities we don't know, and how difficult decisions can be regarding how best to apply limited resources. I suspect that for you it's like retail is for me. You'd expect, after working in retail for a decade, that I'd be more sympathetic when I get bad service. I'm less sympathetic, though. It's a hot button for me.

That is almost exactly how I feel. Some things seem so obvious to me after years of doing it that omitting them is stunning to me (a "north" arrow on the radar to match our map, for example, or the "sort alphabetically" option for the vault I discuss in the OP). On the other side of the coin, when there's truly brilliant or innovative design, I really try to draw attention to it; especially when the design is subtle.

I dunno if you remember the original Marathon, but there were, iirc, two levels where you had to go outside of the ship and oxygen depletion was a big deal. Here we stand, decades later, and going outside on the Almighty had that same feeling to me of taking a giant step into something I wasn't sure I was fully prepared for. It was great.

It was also the first time outside of a raid or set boss fight that Destiny (1 or 2) had hit me with environmental design that influenced my decision making during combat. It's informed design. The player is really close to the sun, that should burn. Let's put some shade for him to recover it, but the placement of shade isn't arbitrary - anyone in a similar situation would have logically had shade placed for their own recovery. Very clever and logical.

Similarly, that final mission, charging through the streets of the city with other guardians showing up for a block or two at a time... what a rush! You felt compelled forwards, not by the mission, but by the other players. You want to keep up, you want to help out, you want to bond in the fire of battle.

Those two experiences are the best story missions (mechanically) that Bungie has put forward so far in the Destiny series. They both reek of the Bungie design found in Marathon and Halo. You used to be able to call out missions as "the sniper level" or "the night level" or the "level with all of the tanks." Most Destiny missions up to this point were "the level where you kill a bunch of Thrall and then fight a giant ogre" which could be like five different levels. Now you have "the sun level" and "the city level" and god I hope that feeling of fighting with other guardians nearby gets more and more use. That's the kind of inspired design that makes people say "Oh, I wish X Y and Z would change to be like that" - because the design gets our creative juices flowing.

I would much rather be theorizing about what lies below the waters of Titan than complaining that the tower crashes about every fifth time I load into it - but, as it feels to me - the breadcrumbs of mystery are too sparse and lacking in nourishment while the looming ghosts of obvious flaws cast too long a shadow to ignore. I hope, as time passes, that those things change for the better in all respects.

Also, tokens, keys, etc.

And all of it counts towards the 200 space limit in your vault.

(That and you're always so nice on the forum or over chat that it's kinda hard to imagine you really getting mad at anyone! :p)

Some people are spitting out their coffee right now.

You'd expect, after working in retail for a decade, that I'd be more sympathetic when I get bad service. I'm less sympathetic, though. It's a hot button for me.

Yeah, I would expect more sympathy. For me, I'm always extra patient and understanding to call center people because I used to work in one. Unless someone is truly going out of their way to be unhelpful (which I don't believe I've actually encountered) I'm happy to flow along with their script or accept when when they just don't have the information they should.

As an example: A few months ago I was waiting on a FedEx shipment at work on Saturday and they straight up did not even stop by to deliver it. They saw they we were normally closed on weekends and rescheduled it for Monday even though it was expressly shipped with a Saturday delivery option / service. The guy at the FedEx call center unhelpfully told me that it had always been set to deliver the next Monday, which was totally and completely false, but I didn't get mad or anything. It was the best information he had so I thanked him for his help and went on with my day. Even though he was on a script. Even though he repeated the same thing to me a couple of times. I picked up the box an hour later at the distribution center and it had giant obvious branded "FedEx Saturday Delivery" stickers all over it but it wasn't the call center guy's fault the delivery driver was lazy or incompetent.

Maybe you've encountered more people who were actually bad at their job instead of just being stuck in them?

(That and you're always so nice on the forum or over chat that it's kinda hard to imagine you really getting mad at anyone! :p)

Using the Bungie app, you can also use layered sorts, although they get reset if you click on any other screen ("Details", for instance.)

I find it very useful to sort Power, then Rarity, then Item Type. That way, all items are listed as item type (Auto Rifle, Leg armor, etc) and within that, exotics then legendaries etc, then under that, by power.

I wish "Item Type" would organize by slot instead of alphabetical, though. Aligning with the UI in-game would be best (Kinetic, Energy, Power, Helmet, Arms, Chest, Legs, Class Item).

Yeah, the app sorts are pretty useful. I just wish they were in the real game. It's like Bungie correctly interpreted three years worth of API data and judged that most everyone would use the app all the time "for muh two screen experiunse!"and didn't even bother for those of us who prefer to never have to look away from the game screen.

There. Fixed that for ya.

Please don't put these words in my mouth. Seeing that people preferred to use apps to the in-game vault in D1 could just have easily told Bungie that the vault sucked and needed fixing, rather than telling Bungie that an app is the right solution. Correlation does not equal causation.

So... your stance is that... it could have meant literally anything? I disagree. There would have been API data. Internal play tests. External play tests. Reading news articles and reviews. Venturing into Reddit. Etc. Etc. Etc.

I don’t even disagree that the new vault is a decent step backwards, but trying to ignore my good point because correlation does not equal causation is... heh... weak at best. As is assuming that Bungie assumed.

lol @ "FTFY" = "my good point"

So, you’re going to play the role of Cody Miller and outright ignore everything you disagree with, huh? As stated above, my point is that the current state of the Vault most likely is the result of three years worth of data collection, of both analytics and opinion & moods, combined with the normal pressure and shifting priorities of shipping a massive multimillion dollar piece of entertainment software. It sure is heck a better guess than “It's like Bungie assumed everyone would use the app all the time...”

Frankly, if you’re not gonna give me even an inch you will not receive one in return.

I'm glad you agree with me that the in-game vault is bad, even if it took you a double-negative to admit it.

It is obvious that the Vault is not where it should be. It is not obvious as to the actual reason why. In cases like this, you are constantly and consistently negative as to those reasons. And it is deeply frustrating. Unfortunately, it is exactly what I expect from you every sing,e time I see you have posted.

If you didn't attack people with combative and insulting posts all the time you'd find more positive responses.

Look at this thread: You replied to me with what is essentially a troll-grade post. Then you complained that it didn't get a well reasoned and thoughtful response from me, and you're finishing your complaint with a personal attack. I want to respect you, because I see in threads that you initiate that you are a smart and well-reasoned person. In your replies, however, you are frequently insulting (and not just to me). You're the king of demanding people post links to evidence while often making baseless (and linkless) claims, yourself. That bungie designed the vault based on 3 years of API data, for example, and that such imagined data (however likely it may be to exist) "obviously" supports making a good app and bad vault. This is exactly the sort of claim you often call others out on and it reeks of hypocrisy.

If you had replied with "I agree that the vault is a step back from D1, but I think it may be permissible since the app is so much better" that would not have garnered the "lol raga troll" response I gave you because it would have been both polite and contributing to the conversation.

At this point, it's probably better we if just stop replying to one another's posts. I think it's bringing down the atmosphere here on dbo and I don't like feeling like I'm fighting with someone for no reason.

If you feel compelled to reply, let's discuss something positive: Did you know I found a cool shortcut in the EDZ yesterday? It was neat! And I posted a map and everything!

Not taking sides here, but an extra-game app with additional functionality was envisioned long before D1 came out. I'll also confess that sometimes my reaction to your posts is similar to Raga's. I get the feeling you're accusing Bungie of acting in bad faith regarding aspects you don't like, yet I know you know enough about game development to know that they are complexities we don't know, and how difficult decisions can be regarding how best to apply limited resources. I suspect that for you it's like retail is for me. You'd expect, after working in retail for a decade, that I'd be more sympathetic when I get bad service. I'm less sympathetic, though. It's a hot button for me.

There are many things I like about this game, and I really feel like D2, *especially* the final two story missions, delivers on the promise of D1. And yet they miss the mark on so many truly basic things. The vault is a disaster.

I think the vault is better then what we had in D1, but as a result is worse. The ability to sort is also very telling, I think. Yes - I'm going to leave it there. I suck. :P

If you didn't attack people with combative and insulting posts all the time you'd find more positive responses.

Look at this thread: You replied to me with what is essentially a troll-grade post. Then you complained that it didn't get a well reasoned and thoughtful response from me, and you're finishing your complaint with a personal attack. I want to respect you, because I see in threads that you initiate that you are a smart and well-reasoned person. In your replies, however, you are frequently insulting (and not just to me). You're the king of demanding people post links to evidence while often making baseless (and linkless) claims, yourself. That bungie designed the vault based on 3 years of API data, for example, and that such imagined data (however likely it may be to exist) "obviously" supports making a good app and bad vault. This is exactly the sort of claim you often call others out on and it reeks of hypocrisy.

My point was always that Bungie has plenty of usage data to base their development priorities off of. Here's a direct example of Bungie monitoring D1 vault usage, for instance. Not API data, but certainly proof that they monitor usage data. I started by just mentioning the API data because forcing a long list of data points into your quote would have broken the flow.

I ask for proof in extreme cases. Or vs extreme claims. Mine was neither. If you're really going to call me a hypocrite for the claim that: "There would have been API data. Internal play tests. External play tests. Reading news articles and reviews. Venturing into Reddit. Etc. Etc. Etc." then you are so far out of line that you've swung around to being a joke.

If you had replied with "I agree that the vault is a step back from D1, but I think it may be permissible since the app is so much better" that would not have garnered the "lol raga troll" response I gave you because it would have been both polite and contributing to the conversation.

Right. Because "for muh two screen experiunse!" was the height of a polite contribution. You want to improve the atmosphere and raise the level of discourse around here? Clean up your own act.

At this point, it's probably better we if just stop replying to one another's posts. I think it's bringing down the atmosphere here on dbo and I don't like feeling like I'm fighting with someone for no reason.

I am more than happy to have a respectful, reasonable discussion with you. But you sure as heck don't make it easy. Consider your negativity. Consider the amount of work that goes into a game like this. Consider your fellow players, like those who posted here saying they highly value the second screen experience. Insulting all those people like you did was not a way to spur respectful discourse.

You don't want to fight? Think about how your words might relate to and impact others before you post. If you do, you and I won't have any more problems.

Sorting by type is needed pretty badly. That's really the one that makes the most sense.

Who cares WHEN you acquired the gun? You care WHAT it is.

Sorting by time of acquisition is very useful, I think. Helps me know for certain that I'm deleting older versions of my weapons and gear. Also helped me avoid deleting my first Curtain Call (Has a great shader on it).

Wait… you don't get the shader back when you delete gear? I guess I learned something today. Maybe I was silly for assuming you would.

Yes, clearly. You can safely deduce that you won't get Mods back from weapons, either.

That's the thing about consumables: they are consumed.

inb4 someone nags about Shaders being consumables...

Sorting by type is needed pretty badly. That's really the one that makes the most sense.

Who cares WHEN you acquired the gun? You care WHAT it is.

Sorting by time of acquisition is very useful, I think. Helps me know for certain that I'm deleting older versions of my weapons and gear. Also helped me avoid deleting my first Curtain Call (Has a great shader on it).

Wait… you don't get the shader back when you delete gear? I guess I learned something today. Maybe I was silly for assuming you would.

Using the Bungie app, you can also use layered sorts, although they get reset if you click on any other screen ("Details", for instance.)

I find it very useful to sort Power, then Rarity, then Item Type. That way, all items are listed as item type (Auto Rifle, Leg armor, etc) and within that, exotics then legendaries etc, then under that, by power.

I wish "Item Type" would organize by slot instead of alphabetical, though. Aligning with the UI in-game would be best (Kinetic, Energy, Power, Helmet, Arms, Chest, Legs, Class Item).

Yeah, the app sorts are pretty useful. I just wish they were in the real game. It's like Bungie correctly interpreted three years worth of API data and judged that most everyone would use the app all the time "for muh two screen experiunse!"and didn't even bother for those of us who prefer to never have to look away from the game screen.

There. Fixed that for ya.

Please don't put these words in my mouth. Seeing that people preferred to use apps to the in-game vault in D1 could just have easily told Bungie that the vault sucked and needed fixing, rather than telling Bungie that an app is the right solution. Correlation does not equal causation.

So... your stance is that... it could have meant literally anything? I disagree. There would have been API data. Internal play tests. External play tests. Reading news articles and reviews. Venturing into Reddit. Etc. Etc. Etc.

I don’t even disagree that the new vault is a decent step backwards, but trying to ignore my good point because correlation does not equal causation is... heh... weak at best. As is assuming that Bungie assumed.

lol @ "FTFY" = "my good point"

So, you’re going to play the role of Cody Miller and outright ignore everything you disagree with, huh? As stated above, my point is that the current state of the Vault most likely is the result of three years worth of data collection, of both analytics and opinion & moods, combined with the normal pressure and shifting priorities of shipping a massive multimillion dollar piece of entertainment software. It sure is heck a better guess than “It's like Bungie assumed everyone would use the app all the time...”

Frankly, if you’re not gonna give me even an inch you will not receive one in return.

I'm glad you agree with me that the in-game vault is bad, even if it took you a double-negative to admit it.

It is obvious that the Vault is not where it should be. It is not obvious as to the actual reason why. In cases like this, you are constantly and consistently negative as to those reasons. And it is deeply frustrating. Unfortunately, it is exactly what I expect from you every sing,e time I see you have posted.

If you didn't attack people with combative and insulting posts all the time you'd find more positive responses.

Look at this thread: You replied to me with what is essentially a troll-grade post. Then you complained that it didn't get a well reasoned and thoughtful response from me, and you're finishing your complaint with a personal attack. I want to respect you, because I see in threads that you initiate that you are a smart and well-reasoned person. In your replies, however, you are frequently insulting (and not just to me). You're the king of demanding people post links to evidence while often making baseless (and linkless) claims, yourself. That bungie designed the vault based on 3 years of API data, for example, and that such imagined data (however likely it may be to exist) "obviously" supports making a good app and bad vault. This is exactly the sort of claim you often call others out on and it reeks of hypocrisy.

If you had replied with "I agree that the vault is a step back from D1, but I think it may be permissible since the app is so much better" that would not have garnered the "lol raga troll" response I gave you because it would have been both polite and contributing to the conversation.

At this point, it's probably better we if just stop replying to one another's posts. I think it's bringing down the atmosphere here on dbo and I don't like feeling like I'm fighting with someone for no reason.

If you feel compelled to reply, let's discuss something positive: Did you know I found a cool shortcut in the EDZ yesterday? It was neat! And I posted a map and everything!

Character power level is almost literally meaningless (beyond 260 light, all you have is prestige modes and that one power 300 quest from the raid power weapon quest item thingy.

As they say, not a bug. A feature.

That’s not really what I think of as sorting. Maybe more like... grouping?

Sure. But sorting wouldn’t be such an issue if at least had those groupings again.

I’m sure it’ll improve, too. Ultimately I don’t care much, because I am one of those folks that always uses the app and probably always will. I just hope we get improvements to the Collections tab, really.

Using the Bungie app, you can also use layered sorts, although they get reset if you click on any other screen ("Details", for instance.)

I find it very useful to sort Power, then Rarity, then Item Type. That way, all items are listed as item type (Auto Rifle, Leg armor, etc) and within that, exotics then legendaries etc, then under that, by power.

I wish "Item Type" would organize by slot instead of alphabetical, though. Aligning with the UI in-game would be best (Kinetic, Energy, Power, Helmet, Arms, Chest, Legs, Class Item).

Yeah, the app sorts are pretty useful. I just wish they were in the real game. It's like Bungie correctly interpreted three years worth of API data and judged that most everyone would use the app all the time "for muh two screen experiunse!"and didn't even bother for those of us who prefer to never have to look away from the game screen.

There. Fixed that for ya.

Please don't put these words in my mouth. Seeing that people preferred to use apps to the in-game vault in D1 could just have easily told Bungie that the vault sucked and needed fixing, rather than telling Bungie that an app is the right solution. Correlation does not equal causation.

So... your stance is that... it could have meant literally anything? I disagree. There would have been API data. Internal play tests. External play tests. Reading news articles and reviews. Venturing into Reddit. Etc. Etc. Etc.

I don’t even disagree that the new vault is a decent step backwards, but trying to ignore my good point because correlation does not equal causation is... heh... weak at best. As is assuming that Bungie assumed.

lol @ "FTFY" = "my good point"

So, you’re going to play the role of Cody Miller and outright ignore everything you disagree with, huh? As stated above, my point is that the current state of the Vault most likely is the result of three years worth of data collection, of both analytics and opinion & moods, combined with the normal pressure and shifting priorities of shipping a massive multimillion dollar piece of entertainment software. It sure is heck a better guess than “It's like Bungie assumed everyone would use the app all the time...”

Frankly, if you’re not gonna give me even an inch you will not receive one in return.

I'm glad you agree with me that the in-game vault is bad, even if it took you a double-negative to admit it.

It is obvious that the Vault is not where it should be. It is not obvious as to the actual reason why. In cases like this, you are constantly and consistently negative as to those reasons. And it is deeply frustrating. Unfortunately, it is exactly what I expect from you every sing,e time I see you have posted.