So why not have someone put a gun to your head, who will shoot you if you don’t beat the raid tonight? Surely beating it and saving your life would be exhilarating!

If you want real world pressure, that’s as good as it gets!

https://m.imgur.com/r/arrow/FOwZ77O

If you want real world pressure, that’s as good as it gets!

Cruel your a great guy, give lots of good advice and help plenty of people out. You just can't come to terms with how much easier these games are for you than a 'lot' of other people.

Bungie made Destiny Raids for people just like you, not my skill tier. They've been faulted for it by themselves and others and that will continue until they offer different flavours of the Raid. There's no reason why a Raid has to be an unplayable space for 'most' customers.

We have a dedicated (old) group playing Tue. and Fri. for 2 hours each. We managed to open the Castleum door twice. Subsequent stages saw little progress and we aren't even running blind. Our time investment is huge but success is slow to arrive. We would benefit greatly from a non-resetting Raids as well as other performance changes.

There was and is no reason why Destiny Raids couldn't have differing skill flavours. Give better rewards to the Elite versions while letting more people check out the playspace at a more favourable setting.

I do take your point, truly. But my gut reaction is that the solution may not be quite as simple as you present it.

Luke Smith has talked several times about the process of creating a raid, and how it differs from creating other content in Destiny. One of the major differences is that the raid designers are able to make certain assumptions about the player... assumptions that cannot be made while designing other activities. They can assume that players are in a full fireteam of 6, and everyone has headsets. They can assume a certain level of commitment over time. And while I've never heard Luke specify this, I bet one of the assumptions the raid team makes is a certain level of compitence and mechanical mastery of the game. I would stress though that I do not believe the raids are particularly demanding on that final point. I'd argue that the Nightfalls are a far more demanding activity in terms of requiring players who can perform like a 1-person army. But to your point, the raids are somewhat more demanding of skill than the rest of the game.

When I think about the implications of your suggestion (adding an "easy" mode), my gut reaction is that something would be lost in the process. I think about the way the current setup has lead to fireteams struggling for days or even weeks, grinding against every encounter, before finally succeeding. How amazing do those teams feel afterwards? How many of those teams would have just given up and done the easier version, had it been available, and robbed denied themselves the sense of accomplishment in the process? Is that a good trade to make? I genuinely don't know. Or what about the social aspect of these challenging activities? Look at all the connections that have been made thanks to players going out of their way to find help, or to offer help.

There's an element to all of this that overlaps with the debate around raid matchmaking. I think, in some cases, it is worthwhile to demand certain efforts of the player. I think certain experiences are only possible when the players involved have put in a certain level of investment. That's a real tricky line to walk, and Bungie hasn't nailed it flawlessly every time, but my gut tells me that the raid right now is in a pretty good place overall. It's demanding, it's tough. It is not for everyone. And I think that's ok. I don't see how it could be made "for everyone" without diluting what makes it special.

That said, there is another layer to all this. I think (but I could be wrong), that there is a large group of players who are more interestied in *seeing* the raid than they are in *playing* the raid. What I mean is they want to see the locations, fight through some of the playspaces, and explore without worrying about all the stress and pressure that they might feel while joining a raid team. I think Bungie actually addressed this issue quite well with TTK, by creating story missions that took us down into the Vault or to Crota's throne room. I loved that, and I hope Bungie does something similar with the Leviathan raid locations in the future.

Cruel your a great guy, give lots of good advice and help plenty of people out. You just can't come to terms with how much easier these games are for you than a 'lot' of other people.

Bungie made Destiny Raids for people just like you, not my skill tier. They've been faulted for it by themselves and others and that will continue until they offer different flavours of the Raid. There's no reason why a Raid has to be an unplayable space for 'most' customers.

We have a dedicated (old) group playing Tue. and Fri. for 2 hours each. We managed to open the Castleum door twice. Subsequent stages saw little progress and we aren't even running blind. Our time investment is huge but success is slow to arrive. We would benefit greatly from a non-resetting Raids as well as other performance changes.

There was and is no reason why Destiny Raids couldn't have differing skill flavours. Give better rewards to the Elite versions while letting more people check out the playspace at a more favourable setting.

There are different skill flavors, aren't there?

I may have come across as antagonistic in this thread, but I haven't meant to. I always like playing with you, DEEP. I don't think I'm a better player than you. I think my agreement with Cruel indisputably proves that you do not have to be an elite player to share his opinion about raids. Every single raid has given me moments that made me think I'm not capable of doing what needs to be done. Every single raid has gotten easier over time. I've had plenty of weeks where me and my team have been unable to finish. I've had weeks where we couldn't make it past the first boss. As long as everybody is learning, making distinctions, and enjoying each other's company, I don't mind. That's not to say I don't get frustrated or don't expect others to.

It took 14 hours to beat VoG blind. Maybe that's not something to brag about, and I realize that's beyond the patience threshold of most, perhaps, but it was glorious when we finished. The sense of accomplishment was worth it for me, and wouldn't have been the same had it taken less time. Within a few months it wasn't uncommon for it to take an hour or so, and that provided a different kind of fun.

I know nothing about this raid yet, but I can't imagine it's so different than the previous raids regarding the challenges it presents. I want to be able to say I climbed that mountain, and I don't want it to be a hill instead. I know I won't be the first, and I don't really care if I'm the last, but I want to do what others have done, even if it's harder for me than it was for them.

The real world has challenges that are more challenging for some than others, so why not video games? It's cool. When you say there's no reason why a raid has to be a challenging place for most customers, I say there is, because that's exactly the goal of the raid. That is the nature of what the raid is.

I didn't think you were being antagonistic. :)

The Normal skill level is too hard and Hard is worse, for many people.

I see it this way. Bungie gave you what a percentage seem to want. I'm asking for what I want and there's evidence there is a need to get a lot more people through the Raids. Bungie watches many forums and I suspect this is one of them.

There is a 5 mile trail. No matter how you travel it, the territory is the same. So why do some people walk and others run? People like to set their own challenge level. Raids can be the same. Imposing arbitrary constraints on the travelers is an unnecessary impediment and doesn't make the journey better or all people happier.

More choice is a good thing.

More choices is not always a good thing. Because sometimes the developer actually knows best. And sometimes people don't always know what they want. I'm not saying this is the case now. But sometimes what is helpful for some might hurt the community as a whole, and you can take that how you will :-D

Cruel your a great guy, give lots of good advice and help plenty of people out. You just can't come to terms with how much easier these games are for you than a 'lot' of other people.

Bungie made Destiny Raids for people just like you, not my skill tier. They've been faulted for it by themselves and others and that will continue until they offer different flavours of the Raid. There's no reason why a Raid has to be an unplayable space for 'most' customers.

We have a dedicated (old) group playing Tue. and Fri. for 2 hours each. We managed to open the Castleum door twice. Subsequent stages saw little progress and we aren't even running blind. Our time investment is huge but success is slow to arrive. We would benefit greatly from a non-resetting Raids as well as other performance changes.

There was and is no reason why Destiny Raids couldn't have differing skill flavours. Give better rewards to the Elite versions while letting more people check out the playspace at a more favourable setting.

There are different skill flavors, aren't there?

I may have come across as antagonistic in this thread, but I haven't meant to. I always like playing with you, DEEP. I don't think I'm a better player than you. I think my agreement with Cruel indisputably proves that you do not have to be an elite player to share his opinion about raids. Every single raid has given me moments that made me think I'm not capable of doing what needs to be done. Every single raid has gotten easier over time. I've had plenty of weeks where me and my team have been unable to finish. I've had weeks where we couldn't make it past the first boss. As long as everybody is learning, making distinctions, and enjoying each other's company, I don't mind. That's not to say I don't get frustrated or don't expect others to.

It took 14 hours to beat VoG blind. Maybe that's not something to brag about, and I realize that's beyond the patience threshold of most, perhaps, but it was glorious when we finished. The sense of accomplishment was worth it for me, and wouldn't have been the same had it taken less time. Within a few months it wasn't uncommon for it to take an hour or so, and that provided a different kind of fun.

I know nothing about this raid yet, but I can't imagine it's so different than the previous raids regarding the challenges it presents. I want to be able to say I climbed that mountain, and I don't want it to be a hill instead. I know I won't be the first, and I don't really care if I'm the last, but I want to do what others have done, even if it's harder for me than it was for them.

The real world has challenges that are more challenging for some than others, so why not video games? It's cool. When you say there's no reason why a raid has to be a challenging place for most customers, I say there is, because that's exactly the goal of the raid. That is the nature of what the raid is.

I didn't think you were being antagonistic. :)

The Normal skill level is too hard and Hard is worse, for many people.

I see it this way. Bungie gave you what a percentage seem to want. I'm asking for what I want and there's evidence there is a need to get a lot more people through the Raids. Bungie watches many forums and I suspect this is one of them.

There is a 5 mile trail. No matter how you travel it, the territory is the same. So why do some people walk and others run? People like to set their own challenge level. Raids can be the same. Imposing arbitrary constraints on the travelers is an unnecessary impediment and doesn't make the journey better or all people happier.

More choice is a good thing.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Instance_Lock_Extension

Cruel your a great guy, give lots of good advice and help plenty of people out. You just can't come to terms with how much easier these games are for you than a 'lot' of other people.

Bungie made Destiny Raids for people just like you, not my skill tier. They've been faulted for it by themselves and others and that will continue until they offer different flavours of the Raid. There's no reason why a Raid has to be an unplayable space for 'most' customers.

We have a dedicated (old) group playing Tue. and Fri. for 2 hours each. We managed to open the Castleum door twice. Subsequent stages saw little progress and we aren't even running blind. Our time investment is huge but success is slow to arrive. We would benefit greatly from a non-resetting Raids as well as other performance changes.

There was and is no reason why Destiny Raids couldn't have differing skill flavours. Give better rewards to the Elite versions while letting more people check out the playspace at a more favourable setting.

There are different skill flavors, aren't there?

I may have come across as antagonistic in this thread, but I haven't meant to. I always like playing with you, DEEP. I don't think I'm a better player than you. I think my agreement with Cruel indisputably proves that you do not have to be an elite player to share his opinion about raids. Every single raid has given me moments that made me think I'm not capable of doing what needs to be done. Every single raid has gotten easier over time. I've had plenty of weeks where me and my team have been unable to finish. I've had weeks where we couldn't make it past the first boss. As long as everybody is learning, making distinctions, and enjoying each other's company, I don't mind. That's not to say I don't get frustrated or don't expect others to.

It took 14 hours to beat VoG blind. Maybe that's not something to brag about, and I realize that's beyond the patience threshold of most, perhaps, but it was glorious when we finished. The sense of accomplishment was worth it for me, and wouldn't have been the same had it taken less time. Within a few months it wasn't uncommon for it to take an hour or so, and that provided a different kind of fun.

I know nothing about this raid yet, but I can't imagine it's so different than the previous raids regarding the challenges it presents. I want to be able to say I climbed that mountain, and I don't want it to be a hill instead. I know I won't be the first, and I don't really care if I'm the last, but I want to do what others have done, even if it's harder for me than it was for them.

The real world has challenges that are more challenging for some than others, so why not video games? It's cool. When you say there's no reason why a raid has to be a challenging place for most customers, I say there is, because that's exactly the goal of the raid. That is the nature of what the raid is.

but it is fun...

Spoken like a true married person.

Rather than keeping track of "checkpoints", Bungie could just only allow you to start a raid at the furthest anyone has beaten the raid (this would also mean you couldn't join-in-progress on a team further than you I suppose)? That forces people to experience the entire raid in-order, makes scheduling easier, and allows people to skip parts they are tired of when they just want to focus on specific loot.

That might have worked until this raid. Because each of the prior sections of the raid change each reset :-)

Bungie made Destiny Raids for people just like you, not my skill tier. They've been faulted for it by themselves and others and that will continue until they offer different flavours of the Raid. There's no reason why a Raid has to be an unplayable space for 'most' customers.

We have a dedicated (old) group playing Tue. and Fri. for 2 hours each. We managed to open the Castleum door twice. Subsequent stages saw little progress and we aren't even running blind. Our time investment is huge but success is slow to arrive. We would benefit greatly from a non-resetting Raids as well as other performance changes.

There was and is no reason why Destiny Raids couldn't have differing skill flavours. Give better rewards to the Elite versions while letting more people check out the playspace at a more favourable setting.

I keep thinking about why this is a bad idea. It impacts the player economy, and other players are a resource in Destiny. The reset puts everyone on the same page at the same time once a week.

It only puts everyone on the same page for like 1 hour each week. I don't think that's a particularly strong argument. That said, when have you ever needed to add someone to your raid group halfway through and had trouble finding a replacement? People generally have no problem just jumping in to help. (At least around here)

The weekly reset is there so Bungie can easily cap how much loot you can gain per-week. If you could just continue to run the raid until you finished, but the loot cap applied I don't see how that would be a problem. If you can't schedule all your people to finish it in one week they don't have to start over.

I guess I could see where it caps the level of loot you get, thereby slowing you down (though that requires that you say the rewards scale up throughout the raid which is historically debatable at best) and the whole point is that the reset prevents people from going slower not faster. IT seems like we get to the same place in your conclusion, but I don't understand your premise.

In other words, you can only get a certain set of loot from the raid which is limited each week by the cap. Assuming that limitation remains in place, if they remove the reset of the checkpoints then you can just keep trying the raid until you beat it or you decide you aren't high enough level and restart from the beginning. It doesn't impact the loot economy either way.

I keep thinking about why this is a bad idea. It impacts the player economy, and other players are a resource in Destiny. The reset puts everyone on the same page at the same time once a week.

The weekly reset is there so Bungie can easily cap how much loot you can gain per-week. If you could just continue to run the raid until you finished, but the loot cap applied I don't see how that would be a problem. If you can't schedule all your people to finish it in one week they don't have to start over.

I guess I could see where it caps the level of loot you get, thereby slowing you down (though that requires that you say the rewards scale up throughout the raid which is historically debatable at best) and the whole point is that the reset prevents people from going slower not faster. IT seems like we get to the same place in your conclusion, but I don't understand your premise.

In other words, you can only get a certain set of loot from the raid which is limited each week by the cap. Assuming that limitation remains in place, if they remove the reset of the checkpoints then you can just keep trying the raid until you beat it or you decide you aren't high enough level and restart from the beginning. It doesn't impact the loot economy either way.

Well, or at least in the same way as the raid does. I refuse to hear the theory that people don't get better at raiding through practice.

My performance monday night would suggest I'm getting worse, lol

Your progress in trials is not wiped every week.

But... yes it is, right? If you play and win 5 games one week, quit, and wait until the next week, you start with 0 wins.

Edit: thought I was replying to Cody

Well, or at least in the same way as the raid does. I refuse to hear the theory that people don't get better at raiding through practice.